Julian Assange: Why the world needs WikiLeaks

Prevodilac: Ivana Korom Lektor: Sandra Gojic

Chris Anderson: Julian, welcome.

Kris Anderson: Džulijane, dobrodošao.

It's been reported that WikiLeaks, your baby,

Kaže se da je "Vikiliks", Vaša beba,

has, in the last few years

objavio... u poslednjih nekoliko godina

has released more classified documents

je objavio više poverljivih dokumenata

than the rest of the world's media combined.

nego ostali svetski mediji zajedno.

Can that possibly be true?

Da li je moguće da je to istina?

Julian Assange: Yeah, can it possibly be true?

Džulijan Asanž: Da, može li biti istina?

It's a worry -- isn't it? -- that the rest of the world's media

To zabrinjava - zar ne? - da ostatak svetskih medija

is doing such a bad job

tako loše radi posao,

that a little group of activists

da je mala grupa aktivista

is able to release more

u stanju da objavi više

of that type of information

informacija takve vrste,

than the rest of the world press combined.

nego svi ostali svetski mediji zajedno.

CA: How does it work?

KA: Kako to funkcioniše?

How do people release the documents?

Kako ljudi objavljuju ta dokumenta?

And how do you secure their privacy?

I kako im osiguravate privatnost?

JA: So these are -- as far as we can tell --

DžA: To su - koliko je nama poznato -

classical whistleblowers,

klasični insajderi.

and we have a number of ways for them

Imamo nekoliko načina na koje

to get information to us.

oni mogu da nam dostave informacije.

So we use this state-of-the-art encryption

Koristimo prvoklasno kodiranje

to bounce stuff around the Internet, to hide trails,

da prenosimo stvari preko interneta, da sakrijemo tragove,

pass it through legal jurisdictions

prođemo pored pravnih nadležnosti,

like Sweden and Belgium

kao Švedska i Belgija,

to enact those legal protections.

da obezbedimo tu pravnu zaštitu.

We get information in the mail,

Informacije dobijamo poštom,

the regular postal mail,

običnom poštom,

encrypted or not,

šifrovane ili ne,

vet it like a regular news organization, format it --

pregledamo ih kao obična novinska organizacija, presložimo -

which is sometimes something that's quite hard to do,

što je nekad nešto što je veoma teško uraditi,

when you're talking about

kada govorimo o

giant databases of information --

ogromnim bazama informacija -

release it to the public

objavimo u javnosti

and then defend ourselves

i onda se branimo

against the inevitable legal and political attacks.

od neizbežnih pravnih i političkih napada.

CA: So you make an effort to ensure

KA: Znači ulažete napor da osigurate

the documents are legitimate,

da su dokumenta legitimna.

but you actually

Ali zapravo

almost never know who the identity of the source is?

skoro nikada ne znate identitet izvora.

JA: That's right, yeah. Very rarely do we ever know,

DžA: Tako je, da. Samo veoma retko znamo.

and if we find out at some stage

I ako u nekom trenutku saznamo,

then we destroy that information as soon as possible.

onda što pre uništimo tu informaciju.

(Phone ring) God damn it.

(telefon zvoni) Prokletstvo.

(Laughter)

(smeh)

CA: I think that's the CIA asking what the code is

KA: Mislim da to CIA želi da sazna

for a TED membership.

kod za članstvo u TED-u.

(Laughter)

(smeh)

So let's take [an] example, actually.

Uzmimo neki primer.

This is something

Ovo ste pustili

you leaked a few years ago.

pre nekoliko godina.

If we can have this document up ...

Ako možemo da dobijemo taj dokument...

So this was a story in Kenya a few years ago.

Dakle, ovo je bila priča u Keniji pre nekoliko godina.

Can you tell us what you leaked and what happened?

Možete li nam reći šta ste objavili i šta se desilo?

JA: So this is the Kroll Report.

DžA: Ovo je "Kroll" izveštaj.

This was a secret intelligence report

To je bio izveštaj tajne obaveštajne službe

commissioned by the Kenyan government

koji je poručila kenijska vlada

after its election in 2004.

posle izbora 2004.

Prior to 2004, Kenya was ruled

Pre 2004. Kenijom je vladao

by Daniel arap Moi

Danijel arap Moi

for about 18 years.

nekih 18 godina.

He was a soft dictator of Kenya.

On je bio blagi diktator u Keniji.

And when Kibaki got into power --

A kada je Kibaki došao na vlast -

through a coalition of forces that were trying

kroz koaliciju snaga koje su

to clean up corruption in Kenya --

pokušavale da okončaju korupciju u Keniji -

they commissioned this report,

naručili su ovaj izveštaj,

spent about two million pounds

potrošili oko dva miliona funti

on this and an associated report.

na ovo i na još jedan izveštaj.

And then the government sat on it

Onda je vlada to sakrila

and used it for political leverage on Moi,

i koristila kao političku prednost nad Moiem,

who was the richest man --

koji je bio najbogatiji čovek -

still is the richest man -- in Kenya.

i dalje je najbogatiji čovek - u Keniji.

It's the Holy Grail of Kenyan journalism.

To je Sveti Gral kenijskog novinarstva.

So I went there in 2007,

Ja sam otišao tamo 2007.

and we managed to get hold of this

i uspeli smo da se dočepamo ovoga

just prior to the election --

neposredno pred izbore -

the national election, December 28.

nacionalne izbore, 28. decembra.

When we released that report,

Kada smo objavili taj izveštaj,

we did so three days after the new president, Kibaki,

bilo je to tri dana pošto je novi predsednik, Kibaki,

had decided to pal up with

odlučio da se udruži

the man that he was going to clean out,

sa čovekom kojeg je želeo da "očisti",

Daniel arap Moi,

Danijelom arap Moijem.

so this report then

Tako da je ovaj izveštaj

became a dead albatross

onda postao kamen

around President Kibaki's neck.

oko vrata predsednika Kibakija.

CA: And -- I mean, to cut a long story short --

KA: I - mislim, da skratimo priču -

word of the report leaked into Kenya,

u Keniji se saznalo za taj izveštaj,

not from the official media, but indirectly,

ne od zvaničnih medija, nego indirektno.

and in your opinion, it actually shifted the election.

I po Vašem mišljenju, to je promenilo izbore.

JA: Yeah. So this became front page of the Guardian

DžA: Da. To je dospelo na naslovnu stranu "Gardijana"

and was then printed in all the surrounding countries of Kenya,

i onda se štampalo u svim susednim zemljama,

in Tanzanian and South African press.

u tanzanijskim i južnoafričkim novinama.

And so it came in from the outside.

Tako da je ušlo spolja.

And that, after a couple of days,

Zbog toga se, posle nekoliko dana,

made the Kenyan press feel safe to talk about it.

kenijska štampa osećala bezbedno da o tome govori.

And it ran for 20 nights straight on Kenyan TV,

Dvadeset noći uzastopno je emitovano na kenijskoj televiziji,

shifted the vote by 10 percent,

promenilo je glasove za 10%

according to a Kenyan intelligence report,

prema izveštaju kenijske obaveštajne službe,

which changed the result of the election.

što je promenilo ishod izbora.

CA: Wow, so your leak

KA: Opa, znači Vaše objavljivanje

really substantially changed the world?

je zaista značajno promenilo svet?

JA: Yep.

DžA: Da.

(Applause)

(aplauz)

CA: Here's -- We're going to just show

KA: Pokazaćemo

a short clip from this

kratak video klip

Baghdad airstrike video.

vazdušnog napada u Bagdadu.

The video itself is longer,

Sam video je duži.

but here's a short clip.

Ali evo kratkog isečka.

This is -- this is intense material, I should warn you.

Ovo je - ovo je intenzivan materijal, moram da vas upozorim.

Radio: ... just fuckin', once you get on 'em just open 'em up.

Radio: ... samo jebeno, kad ih vidiš, pali.

I see your element, uh, got about four Humvees, uh, out along ...

Vidim vaš element, vidim oko četiri Hamvija, mmm tamo pored...

You're clear. All right. Firing.

Čisto je. U redu. Palim.

Let me know when you've got them. Let's shoot.

Javite kad ih pogodite. Pucajmo.

Light 'em all up.

Zapalite ih sve.

C'mon, fire!

'Ajde, pucajte!

(Machine gun fire)

(pucanje)

Keep shoot 'n. Keep shoot 'n.

Nastavite da pucate. Nastavite da pucate.

(Machine gun fire)

(pucanje)

Keep shoot 'n.

Nastavite da pucate.

Hotel ... Bushmaster Two-Six, Bushmaster Two-Six,

Hotel... Bušmaster 2-6, Bušmaster 2-6,

we need to move, time now!

moramo da se pomeramo, sada!

All right, we just engaged all eight individuals.

U redu, upravo smo naciljali svih osam osoba.

Yeah, we see two birds [helicopters], and we're still firing.

Da, vidimo dvoje i još uvek pucamo.

Roger. I got 'em.

Prijem. Imam ih.

Two-Six, this is Two-Six, we're mobile.

2-6, ovde 2-6, u pokretu smo.

Oops, I'm sorry. What was going on?

Ups, izvinjavam se. Šta se dešavalo?

God damn it, Kyle. All right, hahaha. I hit 'em.

Prokletstvo, Kajl. U redu, hahha. Pogodio sam ih.

CA: So, what was the impact of that?

KA: Dakle, kakav je bio uticaj ovoga?

JA: The impact on the people who worked on it

DžA: Uticaj na ljude koji su radili na tome

was severe.

je bio žestok.

We ended up sending two people to Baghdad

Na kraju smo poslali dvoje ljudi u Bagdad

to further research that story.

da detaljnije istraže tu priču.

So this is just the first of three attacks

Dakle ovo je samo prvi od tri napada

that occurred in that scene.

koji se desio u toj sceni.

CA: So, I mean, 11 people died in that attack, right,

KA: Znači, 11 ljudi je poginulo u tom napadu, je l' tako,

including two Reuters employees?

uključujući dva "Rojtersova" radnika?

JA: Yeah. Two Reuters employees,

DžA: Da. Dva radnika "Rojtersa",

two young children were wounded.

dvoje dece je ranjeno.

There were between 18 and 26 people killed all together.

Ukupno je ubijeno između 18 i 26 ljudi.

CA: And releasing this caused

KA: I objavljivanje ovoga je izazvalo

widespread outrage.

bes na sve strane.

What was the key element of this

Šta mislite da je ključno u ovome,

that actually caused the outrage, do you think?

a što je izazvalo taj bes?

JA: I don't know. I guess people can see

DžA: Ne znam, pretpostavljam da ljudi vide

the gross disparity in force.

ogromno neslaganje u sili.

You have guys walking in a relaxed way down the street,

Imate ljude koji opušteno šetaju ulicom,

and then an Apache helicopter sitting up at one kilometer

i "Apač" helikopter koji stoji u uglu

firing 30-millimeter cannon shells

i ispaljuje 30-milimetarske granate

on everyone --

na sve -

looking for any excuse to do so --

tražeći bilo kakav izgovor za to -

and killing people rescuing the wounded.

i ubija ljude koji spašavaju ranjenike.

And there was two journalists involved that clearly weren't insurgents

Tu su bila umešana dva novinara koji očigledno nisu bili pobunjenici

because that's their full-time job.

jer to im je posao.

CA: I mean, there's been this U.S. intelligence analyst,

KA: Jedan analitičar američke obaveštajne službe,

Bradley Manning, arrested,

Bredli Mening, je uhapšen.

and it's alleged that he confessed in a chat room

Navodno je on priznao

to have leaked this video to you,

da Vam je dostavio ove snimke,

along with 280,000

zajedno sa još 280.000

classified U.S. embassy cables.

poverljivih telegrama američke ambasade.

I mean, did he?

Mislim, da li je?

JA: We have denied receiving those cables.

DžA: Pa, porekli smo primanje tih telegrama.

He has been charged,

On je pre nekih pet dana

about five days ago,

optužen

with obtaining 150,000 cables

da je došao do 150.000 telegrama

and releasing 50.

i da je objavio 50.

Now, we had released,

E sad, mi smo ranije

early in the year,

ove godine objavili

a cable from the Reykjavik U.S. embassy,

jedan telegram iz američke ambasade u Rejkjaviku.

but this is not necessarily connected.

Ali to nije nužno povezano.

I mean, I was a known visitor of that embassy.

uvaženi posetilac te ambasade.

CA: I mean, if you did receive thousands

KA: Mislim, da ste dobili hiljade

of U.S. embassy diplomatic cables ...

američkih diplomatskih telegrama...

JA: We would have released them. (CA: You would?)

DžA: Objavili bismo ih. (KA: Biste?)

JA: Yeah. (CA: Because?)

DžA: Da. (KA: Zašto?)

JA: Well, because these sort of things

DžA: Pa, zato što takve stvari

reveal what the true state

otkrivaju kakvo je pravo stanje

of, say,

recimo,

Arab governments are like,

arapskih vlada,

the true human-rights abuses in those governments.

prave zloupotrebe ljudskih prava u tim vladama.

If you look at declassified cables,

Ako pogledate telegrame koji su otkriveni,

that's the sort of material that's there.

takav materijal se tamo nalazi.

CA: So let's talk a little more broadly about this.

KA: Hajde da malo šire govorimo o ovome.

I mean, in general, what's your philosophy?

Mislim, uopšteno, koja je Vaša filozofija?

Why is it right

Zašto je u redu

to encourage leaking of secret information?

ohrabrivati objavljivanje tajnih informacija?

JA: Well, there's a question as to what sort of information is important in the world,

DžA: Pa, postoji pitanje kakve vrste informacija su važne u svetu,

what sort of information

kakve vrste informacija

can achieve reform.

mogu dovesti do promene.

And there's a lot of information.

A postoji mnogo informacija.

So information that organizations

Dakle informacije za koje organizacije

are spending economic effort into concealing,

troše ekonomski napor da ih sakriju,

that's a really good signal

su dobar signal

that when the information gets out,

da kada te informacije izađu,

there's a hope of it doing some good --

postoji nada da naprave nešto dobro.

because the organizations that know it best,

Jer organizacije koje ih najbolje znaju,

that know it from the inside out,

koje ih znaju i spolja i iznutra,

are spending work to conceal it.

ulažu napor da ih sakriju.

And that's what we've found in practice,

To smo videli u praksi.

and that's what the history of journalism is.

I to je istorija novinarstva.

CA: But are there risks with that,

KA: Ali zar ne postoje rizici,

either to the individuals concerned

bilo za pojedince koji su uključeni u to

or indeed to society at large,

ili za društvo u celini,

where leaking can actually have

kada objavljivanje može imati

an unintended consequence?

nenamerne posledice?

JA: Not that we have seen with anything we have released.

DžA: Mi ih nismo primetili u vezi sa bilo čim što smo objavili.

I mean, we have a harm immunization policy.

Mislim, mi imamo politiku imunizacije protiv štete.

We have a way of dealing with information

Imamo način na koji radimo sa informacijama

that has sort of personal --

koje imaju neki lični -

personally identifying information in it.

koje u sebi imaju informacije o identitetu.

But there are legitimate secrets --

Ali postoje legitimne tajne -

you know, your records with your doctor;

znate, vaši podaci kod lekara,

that's a legitimate secret --

to je legitimna tajna.

but we deal with whistleblowers that are coming forward

Ali mi radimo sa insajderima koji istupaju,

that are really sort of well-motivated.

a koji su zaista motivisani.

CA: So they are well-motivated.

KA: Znači, oni su motivisani.

And what would you say to, for example,

A šta biste rekli, na primer,

the, you know, the parent of someone

znate, roditelju nekoga -

whose son is out serving the U.S. military,

čiji sin služi u američkoj vojsci

and he says, "You know what,

i kaže, "Znate šta,

you've put up something that someone had an incentive to put out.

objavili ste nešto za šta neko ima interesa da se objavi.

It shows a U.S. soldier laughing

To pokazuje američke vojnike kako se smeju

at people dying.

ljudima koji umiru.

That gives the impression, has given the impression,

To milionima ljudi na svetu

to millions of people around the world

odaje utisak

that U.S. soldiers are inhuman people.

da su američki vojnici nehumani.

Actually, they're not. My son isn't. How dare you?"

A oni ustvari nisu. Moj sin nije. Kako se usuđujete?"

What would you say to that?

Šta biste rekli na to?

JA: Yeah, we do get a lot of that.

DžA: Da, imamo mnogo toga.

But remember, the people in Baghdad,

Ali zapamtite, ti ljudi u Bagdadu,

the people in Iraq, the people in Afghanistan --

ljudi u Iraku, u Avganistanu -

they don't need to see the video;

oni ne moraju da gledaju snimak;

they see it every day.

oni to vide svaki dan.

So it's not going to change their opinion. It's not going to change their perception.

Tako da to neće promeniti njihovo mišljenje. Neće im promeniti percepciju.

That's what they see every day.

Oni to vide svaki dan.

It will change the perception and opinion

Promeniće percepciju i mišljenje

of the people who are paying for it all,

onih ljudi koji plaćaju sve to.

and that's our hope.

A u tome je naša nada.

CA: So you found a way to shine light

KA: Dakle, pronašli ste način da osvetlite

into what you see

ono što smatrate

as these sort of dark secrets in companies and in government.

mračnim tajnama u kompanijama i vladama.

Light is good.

Svetlo je dobro.

But do you see any irony in the fact that,

Ali da li vidite ironiju u činjenici da,

in order for you to shine that light,

da biste osvetlili te stvari,

you have to, yourself,

vi sami morate da

create secrecy around your sources?

stvorite tajnovitost oko Vaših izvora?

JA: Not really. I mean, we don't have

DžA: Ne baš. Mislim, još uvek

any WikiLeaks dissidents yet.

nemamo "Vikiliks" disidente.

We don't have sources who are dissidents on other sources.

Nemamo izvore koji se ne slažu sa drugim izvorima.

Should they come forward, that would be a tricky situation for us,

Kada bi takvi došli, to bi za nas bila nezgodna situacija.

but we're presumably acting in such a way

Ali mi verovatno radimo na takav način

that people feel

da se ljudi osećaju

morally compelled

moralno primoranim

to continue our mission, not to screw it up.

da nastave našu misiju, a ne da je unište.

CA: I'd actually be interested, just based on what we've heard so far --

KA: Interesuje me, samo na osnovu ovoga što smo čuli do sada -

I'm curious as to the opinion in the TED audience.

interesuje me mišljenje TED publike.

You know, there might be a couple of views

Znate, možda ima par pogleda

of WikiLeaks and of Julian.

na "Vikiliks" i na Džulijana.

You know, hero -- people's hero --

Znate, heroj - narodni heroj -

bringing this important light.

koji osvetljava ove bitne stvari.

Dangerous troublemaker.

Opasni smutljivac.

Who's got the hero view?

Ko misli da je heroj?

Who's got the dangerous troublemaker view?

Ko misli da je opasni smutljivac?

JA: Oh, come on. There must be some.

DžA: O, hajde. Mora da ima nekog.

CA: It's a soft crowd, Julian, a soft crowd.

KA: Ovo je blaga publika, Džulijane, blaga publika.

We have to try better. Let's show them another example.

Moramo da se potrudimo. Pokažimo im još jedan primer.

Now here's something that you haven't yet leaked,

Ovo je nešto što niste još objavili,

but I think for TED you are.

ali objavljujete za TED.

I mean it's an intriguing story that's just happened, right?

Mislim, intrigantno je da se ovo upravo desilo, zar ne?

What is this?

Šta je ovo?

JA: So this is a sample of what we do

DžA: Ovo je uzorak onoga

sort of every day.

što radimo svaki dan.

So late last year -- in November last year --

Dakle kasno prošle godine - u novembru prošle godine -

there was a series of well blowouts

bila je serija eksplozija na bušotinama

in Albania,

u Albaniji

like the well blowout in the Gulf of Mexico,

kao ova u meksičkom zalivu,

but not quite as big.

ali ne toliko velike.

And we got a report --

I dobili smo izveštaj -

a sort of engineering analysis into what happened --

nekakvu inženjersku analizu toga šta se desilo -

saying that, in fact, security guards

koji govori da su ustvari, ljudi iz obezbeđenja

from some rival, various competing oil firms

konkurenta, neke druge naftne kompanije,

had, in fact, parked trucks there and blown them up.

parkirali kamione tamo i digli ih u vazduh.

And part of the Albanian government was in this, etc., etc.

I deo albanske vlade je bio umešan, itd itd.

And the engineering report

A taj izveštaj

had nothing on the top of it,

nije imao ništa u zaglavlju.

so it was an extremely difficult document for us.

Tako da je bio prilično težak dokument za nas.

We couldn't verify it because we didn't know

Nismo mogli da ga verifikujemo jer nismo znali

who wrote it and knew what it was about.

ko ga je napisao i o čemu je pisao.

So we were kind of skeptical that maybe it was

Tako da smo bili skeptični i možda je

a competing oil firm just sort of playing the issue up.

konkurentska kompanija samo zakuvavala stvari.

So under that basis, we put it out and said,

Sa tim smo i krenuli, rekli smo,

"Look, we're skeptical about this thing.

"Vidite, skeptični smo povodom ovoga.

We don't know, but what can we do?

Ne znamo, ali šta možemo?

The material looks good, it feels right,

Materijal izgleda dobro, osećaj je dobar,

but we just can't verify it."

ali ne možemo da ga potvrdimo."

And we then got a letter

Onda smo dobili jedno pismo

just this week

upravo ove nedelje,

from the company who wrote it,

od kompanije koja je napisala izveštaj

wanting to track down the source --

i koja je htela da dođe do izvora -

(Laughter)

(smeh)

saying, "Hey, we want to track down the source."

rekli su, "Hej, mi želimo da saznamo vaš izvor".

And we were like, "Oh, tell us more.

A mi smo rekli, "O, kažite nam nešto više.

What document is it, precisely, you're talking about?

O kom dokumentu se tačno radi?

Can you show that you had legal authority over that document?

Da li možete da dokažete da je to vaš dokument?

Is it really yours?"

Da li je stvarno vaš?"

So they sent us this screen shot

Oni su nam poslali snimak ekrana

with the author

sa identifikacijom autora

in the Microsoft Word ID.

u "Microsoft Wordu".

Yeah.

Da.

(Applause)

(aplauz)

That's happened quite a lot though.

To se mnogo puta desilo.

This is like one of our methods

Kao, ovo je jedan od naših načina

of identifying, of verifying, what a material is,

identifikacije - potvrde materijala,

is to try and get these guys to write letters.

tako što pokušavamo da nagovorimo te momke da pišu pisma.

CA: Yeah. Have you had information

KA: Da. Da li ste imali informacije

from inside BP?

iz samog BP-a?

JA: Yeah, we have a lot, but I mean, at the moment,

DžA: Da, imamo ih mnogo, ali u ovom momentu

we are undergoing a sort of serious fundraising and engineering effort.

ulažemo velike nepore u skupljanje sredstava i izgradnju.

So our publication rate

Tako da je objavljivanje

over the past few months

u poslednjih nekoliko meseci

has been sort of minimized

svedeno na minimum

while we're re-engineering our back systems

dok preuređujemo naše sisteme

for the phenomenal public interest that we have.

za fenomenalno interesovanje javnosti koje imamo.

That's a problem.

To je problem.

I mean, like any sort of growing startup organization,

Mislim, kao bilo koja mlada rastuća organizacija,

we are sort of overwhelmed

mi smo donekle oduševljeni

by our growth,

svojim rastom.

and that means we're getting enormous quantity

A to znači da imamo ogroman broj

of whistleblower disclosures

otkrivenih insajdera

of a very high caliber

visokog kalibra,

but don't have enough people to actually

ali nemamo dovoljno ljudi da stvarno

process and vet this information.

obradimo i pregledamo ove informacije.

CA: So that's the key bottleneck,

KA: Znači to je ključni problem,

basically journalistic volunteers

uglavnom novinari dobrovoljci

and/or the funding of journalistic salaries?

i/ili finansiranje novinarskih plata?

JA: Yep. Yeah, and trusted people.

DžA: Da. Da, i ljudi kojima verujemo.

I mean, we're an organization

Mislim, mi smo organizacija

that is hard to grow very quickly

kojoj je teško da brzo raste

because of the sort of material we deal with,

zbog vrste materijala sa kojim radimo.

so we have to restructure

Tako da moramo da se restruktuiramo

in order to have people

kako bismo imali ljude

who will deal with the highest national security stuff,

koji žele da se bave stvarima državne bezbednosti

and then lower security cases.

i stvarima koje nisu bezbedne.

CA: So help us understand a bit about you personally

KA: Pomozite nam da bolje upoznamo Vas

and how you came to do this.

i kako ste počeli ovo da radite.

And I think I read that as a kid

Mislim da sam pročitao da ste kao klinac

you went to 37 different schools.

išli u 37 različitih škola.

Can that be right?

Da li je to tačno?

JA: Well, my parents were in the movie business

DžA: Pa, moji roditelji su se bavili filmovima

and then on the run from a cult,

i bežali su od neke sekte,

so the combination between the two ...

tako da kombinacija ta dva...

(Laughter)

(smeh)

CA: I mean, a psychologist might say

KA: Mislim, neki psiholog bi mogao reći

that's a recipe for breeding paranoia.

da je to recept za razvijanje paranoje.

JA: What, the movie business?

DžA: Šta, snimanje filmova?

(Laughter)

(smeh)

(Applause)

(aplauz)

CA: And you were also -- I mean,

KA: I bili ste - mislim,

you were also a hacker at an early age

takođe ste bili haker kao mladić

and ran into the authorities early on.

i vrlo rano ste naleteli na vlast.

JA: Well, I was a journalist.

DžA: Pa, bio sam novinar.

You know, I was a very young journalist activist at an early age.

Znate, bio sam veoma mladi novinar aktivista.

I wrote a magazine,

Pisao sam časopis,

was prosecuted for it when I was a teenager.

zbog kog su me kao tinejdžera gonili na sudu.

So you have to be careful with hacker.

Tako da morate biti oprezni s tim "haker".

I mean there's like -- there's a method

Mislim, postoji - postoji metod

that can be deployed for various things.

koji može da se razvije za različite stvari.

Unfortunately, at the moment,

Nažalost, trenutno

it's mostly deployed by the Russian mafia

ga najviše razvija ruska mafija

in order to steal your grandmother's bank accounts.

kako bi krala sa bankovnih računa vaših baka.

So this phrase is not,

Tako da ta fraza nije -

not as nice as it used to be.

nije tako lepa kao što je bila.

CA: Yeah, well, I certainly don't think

KA: Da, pa, ja sigurno ne mislim

you're stealing anyone's grandmother's bank account,

da Vi kradete sa računa bilo čije bake.

but what about

Ali šta je sa

your core values?

Vašim sržnim vrednostima?

Can you give us a sense of what they are

Možete li da nam dočarate koje su

and maybe some incident in your life

i možda da date neki događaj iz života

that helped determine them?

koji je pomogao da se one učvrste?

JA: I'm not sure about the incident.

DžA: Nisam siguran za događaj.

But the core values:

Ali sržne vrednosti:

well, capable, generous men

pa, sposobni, velikodušni ljudi

do not create victims;

ne stvaraju žrtve;

they nurture victims.

oni neguju žrtve.

And that's something from my father

A to je nešto od mog oca

and something from other capable, generous men

i drugih sposobnih, velikodušnih ljudi

that have been in my life.

koji su bili u mom životu.

CA: Capable, generous men do not create victims;

KA: Sposobni, velikodušni ljudi ne stvaraju žrtve;

they nurture victims?

oni neguju žrtve?

JA: Yeah. And you know,

DžA: Da. Znate,

I'm a combative person,

ja sam ratoborna osoba,

so I'm not actually so big on the nurture,

i nisam baš dobar u negovanju.

but some way --

Ali na neki način -

there is another way of nurturing victims,

Postoji drugi način negovanja žrtava,

which is to police perpetrators

a to je hvatanje počinilaca

of crime.

zločina.

And so that is something

To je nešto

that has been in my character

što je u mom karakteru

for a long time.

već dugo.

CA: So just tell us, very quickly in the last minute, the story:

KA: Ispričajte nam brzo, u poslednjim minutima, priču:

what happened in Iceland?

šta se desilo na Islandu?

You basically published something there,

U suštini, nešto ste tamo objavili,

ran into trouble with a bank,

upali u nevolju s nekom bankom,

then the news service there

a onda je medijima tamo

was injuncted from running the story.

zabranjeno da objave priču.

Instead, they publicized your side.

Umesto toga, oni su objavili vašu stranu.

That made you very high-profile in Iceland. What happened next?

Napravili su od Vas bitnog lika na Islandu. Šta se potom desilo?

JA: Yeah, this is a great case, you know.

DžA: Da, znate, to jeste veliki slučaj.

Iceland went through this financial crisis.

Island je prolazio kroz finansijsku krizu.

It was the hardest hit of any country in the world.

Bio je to najteži udarac na neku zemlju u svetu.

Its banking sector was 10 times the GDP

Sektor bankarstva im je bio 10 puta veći

of the rest of the economy.

od bruto domaćeg proizvoda ostatka privrede.

Anyway, so we release this report

U svakom slučaju, objavili smo taj izveštaj

in July last year.

u julu prošle godine.

And the national TV station was injuncted

Nacionalna televizija je dobila zabranu

five minutes before it went on air,

pet minuta pre emitovanja.

like out of a movie: injunction landed on the news desk,

Kao na filmu, zabrana je sletela na sto spikera

and the news reader was like,

i on je rekao

"This has never happened before. What do we do?"

"To se nikada ranije nije desilo. Šta da radimo?"

Well, we just show the website instead,

Pa, umesto toga ćemo samo prikazati vebsajt,

for all that time, as a filler,

svo vreme, kao pokrivalicu.

and we became very famous in Iceland,

I postali smo veoma poznati na Islandu,

went to Iceland and spoke about this issue.

išli tamo i pričali o tom problemu.

And there was a feeling in the community

U zajednici je postojalo osećanje

that that should never happen again,

da to nikada ne sme da se ponovi.

and as a result,

Kao rezultat toga,

working with Icelandic politicians

radeći s nekim islandskim političarima

and some other international legal experts,

i nekim drugim međunarodnim pravnim stručnjacima,

we put together a new sort of

sastavili smo novi

package of legislation for Iceland

paket propisa za Island

to sort of become an offshore haven

da na neki način postane spoljno utočište

for the free press,

za slobodnu štampu,

with the strongest journalistic protections in the world,

sa najjačom zaštitom novinara na svetu,

with a new Nobel Prize

sa Nobelovom nagradom

for freedom of speech.

za slobodu govora.

Iceland's a Nordic country,

Island je nordijska zemlja,

so, like Norway, it's able to tap into the system.

dakle, kao Norveška, u mogućnosti je da utiče na sistem.

And just a month ago,

I pre samo mesec dana,

this was passed by the Icelandic parliament unanimously.

islandski parlament je ovo jednoglasno usvojio.

CA: Wow.

KA: Opa!

(Applause)

(aplauz)

Last question, Julian.

Poslednje pitanje, Džulijane.

When you think of the future then,

Kada razmišljate o budućnosti,

do you think it's more likely to be

da li mislite da je verovatnije da

Big Brother exerting more control,

će Veliki Brat imati više kontrole,

more secrecy,

biti tajnovitiji,

or us watching

ili da ćemo mi

Big Brother,

posmatrati Velikog Brata

or it's just all to be played for either way?

ili je moguć bilo koji ishod?

JA: I'm not sure which way it's going to go.

DžA: Nisam siguran kojim putem će ići.

I mean, there's enormous pressures

Mislim, postoje veliki pritisci

to harmonize freedom of speech legislation

da se širom sveta usklade regulative oko

and transparency legislation around the world --

slobode govora i transparentnosti -

within the E.U.,

u okviru Ujedinjenih Nacija,

between China and the United States.

između Kine i Sjedinjenih Država.

Which way is it going to go? It's hard to see.

Kojim putem će ići? Teško je predvideti.

That's why it's a very interesting time to be in --

Zato je ovo veoma interesantno vreme za život.

because with just a little bit of effort,

Jer uz pomoć samo malo napora

we can shift it one way or the other.

možemo tok usmeriti na bilo koju stranu.

CA: Well, it looks like I'm reflecting the audience's opinion

KA: Pa, čini mi se da odražavam mišljenje publike

to say, Julian, be careful,

kada kažem, Džulijane, budite oprezni,

and all power to you.

i neka je moć na vašoj strani.

JA: Thank you, Chris. (CA: Thank you.)

DžA: Hvala, Kris. (KA: Hvala Vama.)

(Applause)

(aplauz)