Julian Assange: Why the world needs WikiLeaks

譯者: Adrienne Lin 審譯者: Lin Su-Wei(林書暐)

Chris Anderson: Julian, welcome.

朱利安，歡迎

It's been reported that WikiLeaks, your baby,

有報導說，你的心血「維基解密」

has, in the last few years

在過去幾年公佈的

has released more classified documents

機密文件數量

than the rest of the world's media combined.

已經比全球媒體加起來還多

Can that possibly be true?

這是真的嗎？

Julian Assange: Yeah, can it possibly be true?

是阿，這個問題

It's a worry -- isn't it? -- that the rest of the world's media

令人擔憂，對吧，現在的媒體

is doing such a bad job

都不曉得在幹麻

that a little group of activists

一群激進份子

is able to release more

公佈的機密文件

of that type of information

都比全球媒體

than the rest of the world press combined.

加起來還要多

CA: How does it work?

你們是怎麼運作的？

How do people release the documents?

你們如何獲取這些機密文件？

And how do you secure their privacy?

還有怎麼維護告密者隱私？

JA: So these are -- as far as we can tell --

就我所知，我們有些

classical whistleblowers,

典型的告密者

and we have a number of ways for them

我們有些管道讓他們

to get information to us.

把機密文件拿給我們

So we use this state-of-the-art encryption

然後用最先進解密技術

to bounce stuff around the Internet, to hide trails,

利用網路隱藏資料來源

pass it through legal jurisdictions

透過有合法管轄權的國家

like Sweden and Belgium

像瑞典、比利時

to enact those legal protections.

來確保合法保護性

We get information in the mail,

我們用郵件收資料

the regular postal mail,

一般郵遞文件

encrypted or not,

不管有沒有加密

vet it like a regular news organization, format it --

像普通新聞媒體一樣檢審、編排

which is sometimes something that's quite hard to do,

有時候做起來還蠻困難的

when you're talking about

因為我們收到的

giant databases of information --

資訊實在太多

release it to the public

一方面要公開

and then defend ourselves

一方面又要處理

against the inevitable legal and political attacks.

合法性、政治上的問題

CA: So you make an effort to ensure

所以你們花了一番功夫

the documents are legitimate,

確保文件的正確性

but you actually

但你們其實

almost never know who the identity of the source is?

都不知道告密者身分？

JA: That's right, yeah. Very rarely do we ever know,

沒錯，幾乎是不知道的

and if we find out at some stage

如果後來知道了

then we destroy that information as soon as possible.

我們會盡快銷毀相關文件

(Phone ring) God damn it.

(鈴聲) 他媽的

(Laughter)

(笑聲)

CA: I think that's the CIA asking what the code is

可能是CIA打來問

for a TED membership.

TED成員代碼

(Laughter)

(笑聲)

So let's take [an] example, actually.

舉個例子來說

This is something

這是你

you leaked a few years ago.

幾年前公佈的東西

If we can have this document up ...

螢幕上可以看到

So this was a story in Kenya a few years ago.

這是幾年前發生在肯亞的事

Can you tell us what you leaked and what happened?

你可以說說詳細情形嗎？

JA: So this is the Kroll Report.

這是Kroll報告

This was a secret intelligence report

是肯亞政府在2004年

commissioned by the Kenyan government

大選後秘密調查的

after its election in 2004.

情資報告

Prior to 2004, Kenya was ruled

2004年之前，肯亞是由

by Daniel arap Moi

Daniel arap Moi統治

for about 18 years.

約18年之久

He was a soft dictator of Kenya.

他是個軟式獨裁者

And when Kibaki got into power --

後來Kibaki權力漸大

through a coalition of forces that were trying

透過聯合各方的力量

to clean up corruption in Kenya --

打擊肯亞的貪污腐敗

they commissioned this report,

他們花了兩百萬英鎊

spent about two million pounds

委託調查這份報告

on this and an associated report.

以及其他相關報告

And then the government sat on it

後來政府用這份報告

and used it for political leverage on Moi,

拿來打壓Moi

who was the richest man --

Moi是肯亞

still is the richest man -- in Kenya.

最有錢的人

It's the Holy Grail of Kenyan journalism.

是肯亞新聞界的最想追蹤的目標

So I went there in 2007,

所以我2007年到那，

and we managed to get hold of this

成功的在大選前

just prior to the election --

獲取這份資料

the national election, December 28.

當年大選是12月28日

When we released that report,

我們後來釋出這報告

we did so three days after the new president, Kibaki,

是在新總統Kibaki上任三天後

had decided to pal up with

竟然決定和

the man that he was going to clean out,

他的前政治敵手

Daniel arap Moi,

Daniel arap Moi搭檔

so this report then

結果這份報告

became a dead albatross

變成他事業上的負擔

around President Kibaki's neck.

害慘了Kibaki總統

CA: And -- I mean, to cut a long story short --

所以長話短說

word of the report leaked into Kenya,

這份秘密情報

not from the official media, but indirectly,

並非由正式媒體報導

and in your opinion, it actually shifted the election.

你認為，這因此改變大選結果

JA: Yeah. So this became front page of the Guardian

沒錯，還登上衛報頭條

and was then printed in all the surrounding countries of Kenya,

後來肯亞附近的國家

in Tanzanian and South African press.

坦桑尼亞、南非也有報導

And so it came in from the outside.

之後傳到肯亞

And that, after a couple of days,

之後幾天

made the Kenyan press feel safe to talk about it.

肯亞媒體認為可以討論了

And it ran for 20 nights straight on Kenyan TV,

他們電視台連播了20天

shifted the vote by 10 percent,

根據肯亞情報分析

according to a Kenyan intelligence report,

我們因此影響了一成選票

which changed the result of the election.

後來改變了選舉結果

CA: Wow, so your leak

所以你的秘密情報

really substantially changed the world?

確實的改變了世界？

JA: Yep.

沒錯

(Applause)

(掌聲)

CA: Here's -- We're going to just show

我們現在來看

a short clip from this

一段影片

Baghdad airstrike video.

巴格達空襲影片

The video itself is longer,

影片本來較長

but here's a short clip.

我們只播一小段

This is -- this is intense material, I should warn you.

警告大家這段影片很

Radio: ... just fuckin', once you get on 'em just open 'em up.

無線電：看到目標後就打爆他們！

I see your element, uh, got about four Humvees, uh, out along ...

看到你們分隊了，四台悍馬

You're clear. All right. Firing.

看到目標，開火

Let me know when you've got them. Let's shoot.

看到目標後回報，開火！

Light 'em all up.

打爆他們！

C'mon, fire!

開火！

(Machine gun fire)

(槍聲)

Keep shoot 'n. Keep shoot 'n.

繼續、繼續

(Machine gun fire)

(槍聲)

Keep shoot 'n.

繼續開火

Hotel ... Bushmaster Two-Six, Bushmaster Two-Six,

（代號）

we need to move, time now!

快點移動

All right, we just engaged all eight individuals.

剛剛解決了八個人

Yeah, we see two birds [helicopters], and we're still firing.

我們還看到兩個，開火中

Roger. I got 'em.

收到。交給我。

Two-Six, this is Two-Six, we're mobile.

（代號）

Oops, I'm sorry. What was going on?

抱歉，剛剛怎麼了？

God damn it, Kyle. All right, hahaha. I hit 'em.

媽的，Kyle，好了，哈哈，我射中了

CA: So, what was the impact of that?

這影片的衝擊是什麼？

JA: The impact on the people who worked on it

負責這起事件的人

was severe.

後果很嚴重

We ended up sending two people to Baghdad

我們後來派了兩個人到巴格達

to further research that story.

蒐集進一步消息

So this is just the first of three attacks

這段影片只是三場攻擊的

that occurred in that scene.

第一場而已

CA: So, I mean, 11 people died in that attack, right,

這次攻擊共有11人死亡

including two Reuters employees?

包含兩名路透社員工，對嗎？

JA: Yeah. Two Reuters employees,

對，兩名路透社員工身亡

two young children were wounded.

兩個小孩受傷

There were between 18 and 26 people killed all together.

總共18到26人死亡

CA: And releasing this caused

公開這段影片

widespread outrage.

引起一片譁然

What was the key element of this

你覺得造成如此激烈反應

that actually caused the outrage, do you think?

的關鍵是什麼？

JA: I don't know. I guess people can see

我猜是因為人們

the gross disparity in force.

看到那種武力的差距

You have guys walking in a relaxed way down the street,

有人悠閒的在街上走

and then an Apache helicopter sitting up at one kilometer

然後一架阿帕契直升機就空襲

firing 30-millimeter cannon shells

30釐米的子彈

on everyone --

就這樣狂掃地面上所有人

looking for any excuse to do so --

他們找任何理由開火

and killing people rescuing the wounded.

連後來去救傷者的人都不放過。

And there was two journalists involved that clearly weren't insurgents

裡頭有兩名記者，明顯的不是民兵，

because that's their full-time job.

記者是24小時的工作。

CA: I mean, there's been this U.S. intelligence analyst,

美國陸軍情報分析員，

Bradley Manning, arrested,

Bradley Manning被捕。

and it's alleged that he confessed in a chat room

據說他已經承認，

to have leaked this video to you,

把影片洩漏給你們，

along with 280,000

以及其他28萬筆

classified U.S. embassy cables.

美國機密外交電文。

I mean, did he?

是真的嗎？

JA: We have denied receiving those cables.

我們已經否認收到那些電文。

He has been charged,

他在五天前，

about five days ago,

已經被起訴，

with obtaining 150,000 cables

理由是獲取15萬筆電文

and releasing 50.

和外洩50筆。

Now, we had released,

我們年初

early in the year,

公佈了

a cable from the Reykjavik U.S. embassy,

雷克雅未克(冰島)美國大使館電文。

but this is not necessarily connected.

不過兩者並無關聯。

I mean, I was a known visitor of that embassy.

因為我自己就是大使館的常客。

CA: I mean, if you did receive thousands

那如果你有收到那幾萬筆的

of U.S. embassy diplomatic cables ...

機密外交電文...

JA: We would have released them. (CA: You would?)

- 我們會公佈　　- 你會？

JA: Yeah. (CA: Because?)

- 會的　　- 因為？

JA: Well, because these sort of things

因為這些文件

reveal what the true state

真實呈現

of, say,

那些

Arab governments are like,

阿拉伯政府的立場

the true human-rights abuses in those governments.

以及政府剝奪人權的證據。

If you look at declassified cables,

這些機密電文，

that's the sort of material that's there.

都寫得清清楚楚。

CA: So let's talk a little more broadly about this.

我們廣泛一點談好了。

I mean, in general, what's your philosophy?

你的個人哲學是什麼？

Why is it right

為什麼

to encourage leaking of secret information?

公開這些機密文件是正確的事？

JA: Well, there's a question as to what sort of information is important in the world,

這問題涉及到，哪些情報對於社會來說是重要的，

what sort of information

哪些情報

can achieve reform.

可以改變社會。

And there's a lot of information.

這種情報多的很。

So information that organizations

許多公司花大把銀子

are spending economic effort into concealing,

想隱藏的機密資料，

that's a really good signal

就是我們鎖定的方向。

that when the information gets out,

當那些資料公開，

there's a hope of it doing some good --

我們相信能有正面影響。

because the organizations that know it best,

因為這些公司不可告人的資料，

that know it from the inside out,

他們內部最清楚，

are spending work to conceal it.

也費心的想阻止資料外洩。

And that's what we've found in practice,

這是我們實際的觀察，

and that's what the history of journalism is.

也是新聞學的起源。

CA: But are there risks with that,

但不論是個人，

either to the individuals concerned

或是社會大眾來講，

or indeed to society at large,

洩漏這些資料都有風險，

where leaking can actually have

洩密很可能導致

an unintended consequence?

意想不到的後果?

JA: Not that we have seen with anything we have released.

我們所公佈的資料還沒有發生過這種事。

I mean, we have a harm immunization policy.

我們有傷害防疫政策，

We have a way of dealing with information

處理比較私密一點的

that has sort of personal --

個人資料上，

personally identifying information in it.

以及會透露個人身分的文件。

But there are legitimate secrets --

但有些合法的秘密，

you know, your records with your doctor;

像是醫療紀錄

that's a legitimate secret --

我們並不會公開。

but we deal with whistleblowers that are coming forward

我們所接觸的告密者

that are really sort of well-motivated.

動機都是善意的。

CA: So they are well-motivated.

善意的動機。

And what would you say to, for example,

那，假如說

the, you know, the parent of someone

有個家長

whose son is out serving the U.S. military,

他的兒子正在美軍服役

and he says, "You know what,

他會說：

you've put up something that someone had an incentive to put out.

你不應該洩漏這種機密才對。

It shows a U.S. soldier laughing

影片中美軍面對

at people dying.

死者大笑。

That gives the impression, has given the impression,

這樣全世界成千上萬人

to millions of people around the world

當然會自然而然的認為

that U.S. soldiers are inhuman people.

美軍都很不人道。

Actually, they're not. My son isn't. How dare you?"

但我兒子才不是這樣，你太過分了

What would you say to that?

你的回應是什麼？

JA: Yeah, we do get a lot of that.

我們的確收到很多這樣的回應。

But remember, the people in Baghdad,

請記得，巴格達的平民、

the people in Iraq, the people in Afghanistan --

伊拉克的平民、阿富汗的平民，

they don't need to see the video;

他們並不用看影片，

they see it every day.

這在他們生活每天真實上演

So it's not going to change their opinion. It's not going to change their perception.

影片並不會改變他們的意見或看法。

That's what they see every day.

因為他們每天都看得到。

It will change the perception and opinion

但那些為這場戰爭買單的人

of the people who are paying for it all,

看法會有所改變。

and that's our hope.

這是我們的希望。

CA: So you found a way to shine light

所以你找到方法

into what you see

以你所看到的

as these sort of dark secrets in companies and in government.

來照亮、點亮公司、政府的黑暗面。

Light is good.

光明是好的。

But do you see any irony in the fact that,

但你不覺得為了光明

in order for you to shine that light,

你必須用這種

you have to, yourself,

極度小心的方式

create secrecy around your sources?

非常的諷刺嗎？

JA: Not really. I mean, we don't have

也還好，我們還沒遇到

any WikiLeaks dissidents yet.

強烈的「維基解密」反對者。

We don't have sources who are dissidents on other sources.

也沒有告密者反對我們公佈的其他來源。

Should they come forward, that would be a tricky situation for us,

這種事如果發生，應該會很難處理。

but we're presumably acting in such a way

我們還是照原定的

that people feel

讓這些人

morally compelled

受到道德驅使

to continue our mission, not to screw it up.

繼續他們的任務，而不是放棄。

CA: I'd actually be interested, just based on what we've heard so far --

就我們剛剛看到的、討論到的，

I'm curious as to the opinion in the TED audience.

我想問問TED觀眾

You know, there might be a couple of views

對於維基揭密或Julian

of WikiLeaks and of Julian.

有什麼看法。

You know, hero -- people's hero --

一種是英雄，人民的英雄，

bringing this important light.

帶給世界光明。

Dangerous troublemaker.

一種是危險的麻煩製造者

Who's got the hero view?

覺得是英雄的請舉手。

Who's got the dangerous troublemaker view?

覺得是麻煩製造者的請舉手。

JA: Oh, come on. There must be some.

騙人的吧怎麼會沒有。

CA: It's a soft crowd, Julian, a soft crowd.

大家都很不好意思啦，朱利安。

We have to try better. Let's show them another example.

我們再來看另一個例子好了。

Now here's something that you haven't yet leaked,

這份文件你還沒公佈，

but I think for TED you are.

今天特別留給TED的。

I mean it's an intriguing story that's just happened, right?

這是最近發生的對吧？

What is this?

這是什麼？

JA: So this is a sample of what we do

給大家看看我們每天

sort of every day.

都做些什麼。

So late last year -- in November last year --

去年11月，

there was a series of well blowouts

在阿爾巴尼亞有一系列

in Albania,

油管爆炸，

like the well blowout in the Gulf of Mexico,

類似墨西哥灣漏油事件，

but not quite as big.

不過沒那麼嚴重。

And we got a report --

我們接到一份資料，

a sort of engineering analysis into what happened --

類似工程分析。

saying that, in fact, security guards

內容是說，那些爆炸

from some rival, various competing oil firms

是幾家相互競爭的石油公司

had, in fact, parked trucks there and blown them up.

請保全幹的，

And part of the Albanian government was in this, etc., etc.

還說阿爾巴尼亞政府有參予，

And the engineering report

除此之外，

had nothing on the top of it,

那份資料沒有其他東西。

so it was an extremely difficult document for us.

讓我們處理起來很困難。

We couldn't verify it because we didn't know

因為也不知道誰寫的、詳細情形，

who wrote it and knew what it was about.

無法證實可靠性。

So we were kind of skeptical that maybe it was

所以我們猜測，

a competing oil firm just sort of playing the issue up.

應該是某家石油公司炒作這話題。

So under that basis, we put it out and said,

因此就沒有繼續追查。

"Look, we're skeptical about this thing.

對這件事抱持懷疑態度，

We don't know, but what can we do?

但又不知道該如何處理，

The material looks good, it feels right,

資料內容很不錯，感覺對了，

but we just can't verify it."

但無法證實。

And we then got a letter

後來我們接到一封信，

just this week

就這禮拜，

from the company who wrote it,

有家公司來信

wanting to track down the source --

希望知道告密者是誰。

(Laughter)

(笑聲)

saying, "Hey, we want to track down the source."

信上說：「我們想揪出告密者」

And we were like, "Oh, tell us more.

我們就回：「請講清楚一點」

What document is it, precisely, you're talking about?

「你說的是哪份文件？」

Can you show that you had legal authority over that document?

「你們有該文件的合法所有權嗎？」

Is it really yours?"

「真的是你們公司？」

So they sent us this screen shot

他們就寄來一張螢幕截圖，

with the author

文件作者名字

in the Microsoft Word ID.

就在Word ID上。

Yeah.

笨吧

(Applause)

(掌聲)

That's happened quite a lot though.

這種事蠻常發生的。

This is like one of our methods

也是我們核對資料真實性

of identifying, of verifying, what a material is,

的其中一種方法，

is to try and get these guys to write letters.

就是與他們通信，獲取進一步資料。

CA: Yeah. Have you had information

那你們有英國石油公司BP

from inside BP?

的資料嗎？

JA: Yeah, we have a lot, but I mean, at the moment,

我們有很多，但目前

we are undergoing a sort of serious fundraising and engineering effort.

我們正積極募款和系統更新。

So our publication rate

所以我們過去幾個月

over the past few months

公開的東西

has been sort of minimized

盡可能減少了，

while we're re-engineering our back systems

為了廣大的公眾利益，

for the phenomenal public interest that we have.

我們正重新設計後台系統。

That's a problem.

這是目前的問題。

I mean, like any sort of growing startup organization,

就像任何剛起步的公司，

we are sort of overwhelmed

我們被這種成長速度

by our growth,

嚇到了。

and that means we're getting enormous quantity

我們收到越來越多告密者提供的

of whistleblower disclosures

機密文件，

of a very high caliber

需要小心處理，

but don't have enough people to actually

但我們沒有足夠人力

process and vet this information.

來審查這些文件。

CA: So that's the key bottleneck,

所以你們的瓶頸就是

basically journalistic volunteers

員工都是志願的記者，

and/or the funding of journalistic salaries?

資金就是他們的薪水？

JA: Yep. Yeah, and trusted people.

對，還有我們可以信任的人。

I mean, we're an organization

我們這種組織，

that is hard to grow very quickly

無法快速成長，

because of the sort of material we deal with,

因為工作內容太敏感。

so we have to restructure

我們必須重新組織

in order to have people

要有人負責

who will deal with the highest national security stuff,

高度國家機密的資料，

and then lower security cases.

還有較低度的資料，

CA: So help us understand a bit about you personally

我想請問，你個人

and how you came to do this.

是為什麼決定做這行。

And I think I read that as a kid

我之前有讀到

you went to 37 different schools.

你小時候唸過37所學校

Can that be right?

是真的嗎？

JA: Well, my parents were in the movie business

我爸媽以前在電影業工作，

and then on the run from a cult,

後來被邪教徒追捕，

so the combination between the two ...

所以可想而知...

(Laughter)

(笑聲)

CA: I mean, a psychologist might say

心理學家可能說

that's a recipe for breeding paranoia.

這樣的小孩長大會變偏執狂

JA: What, the movie business?

電影業環境下長大的小孩嗎？

(Laughter)

(笑聲)

(Applause)

(掌聲)

CA: And you were also -- I mean,

你年輕的時候

you were also a hacker at an early age

當過駭客對吧?

and ran into the authorities early on.

後來跟政府槓上。

JA: Well, I was a journalist.

我以前是記者，

You know, I was a very young journalist activist at an early age.

很年輕的時候就是激進的記者了。

I wrote a magazine,

替雜誌寫文章。

was prosecuted for it when I was a teenager.

青少年時期被起訴，

So you have to be careful with hacker.

講到駭客要小心，

I mean there's like -- there's a method

這項技能，

that can be deployed for various things.

可以用來成就很多事情。

Unfortunately, at the moment,

不幸的是，現在

it's mostly deployed by the Russian mafia

駭客現在都幫俄羅斯黑幫

in order to steal your grandmother's bank accounts.

騙老人家銀行戶頭。

So this phrase is not,

駭客現在

not as nice as it used to be.

不像以前這麼好聽了。

CA: Yeah, well, I certainly don't think

我想你應該

you're stealing anyone's grandmother's bank account,

沒有詐騙老人家。

but what about

那麼你的

your core values?

核心價值是什麼?

Can you give us a sense of what they are

能否跟大家談談

and maybe some incident in your life

你人生過程中發生什麼事，

that helped determine them?

讓你有所堅持

JA: I'm not sure about the incident.

我不確定有什麼事件

But the core values:

核心價值是：

well, capable, generous men

有能力、有雅量的人

do not create victims;

不會創造受害者

they nurture victims.

他們照顧受害者

And that's something from my father

這是我父親

and something from other capable, generous men

以及我遇到的其他有能力、有雅量的人

that have been in my life.

的寫照

CA: Capable, generous men do not create victims;

有能力、有雅量的人，不會創造受害者

they nurture victims?

他們照顧受害者

JA: Yeah. And you know,

沒錯，而且

I'm a combative person,

我是個好戰的人

so I'm not actually so big on the nurture,

我其實不太會照顧別人

but some way --

用另一角度看

there is another way of nurturing victims,

我認為有其他方法能照顧受害者

which is to police perpetrators

那就是監督罪犯

of crime.

和罪行本身

And so that is something

這種想法

that has been in my character

後來變成我的

for a long time.

理念

CA: So just tell us, very quickly in the last minute, the story:

最後，能否簡單的說一下

what happened in Iceland?

在冰島發生了什麼事？

You basically published something there,

好像是某家銀行陷入財務危機

ran into trouble with a bank,

卻向法院申請

then the news service there

禁止當地新聞媒體

was injuncted from running the story.

報導相關新聞

Instead, they publicized your side.

但你替他們公佈了

That made you very high-profile in Iceland. What happened next?

因此在冰島變的很有名，接下來發生什麼事？

JA: Yeah, this is a great case, you know.

這件事真的很有趣

Iceland went through this financial crisis.

冰島經歷財務危機

It was the hardest hit of any country in the world.

對任一國家來說都是重擊

Its banking sector was 10 times the GDP

冰島銀行業的總資產，竟高達國內生產毛額

of the rest of the economy.

將近10倍之多

Anyway, so we release this report

我們在去年七月

in July last year.

公佈這份報告

And the national TV station was injuncted

公佈過後五分鐘

five minutes before it went on air,

當地電視台被禁止報導

like out of a movie: injunction landed on the news desk,

像電影情節一樣，禁播令下來

and the news reader was like,

電視台整個傻眼

"This has never happened before. What do we do?"

沒發生過這種事耶，該怎麼辦

Well, we just show the website instead,

後來他們直接播放我們網站畫面

for all that time, as a filler,

因為臨時找不到其他新聞

and we became very famous in Iceland,

我們在冰島名氣很響亮

went to Iceland and spoke about this issue.

後來到冰島說明這件事

And there was a feeling in the community

當時大眾有共識

that that should never happen again,

認為這種事不應該再發生

and as a result,

後來

working with Icelandic politicians

我們和冰島的政治家

and some other international legal experts,

和其他國際法律專家

we put together a new sort of

合作

package of legislation for Iceland

希望透過立法

to sort of become an offshore haven

讓冰島成為媒體天堂

for the free press,

可以自由發聲

with the strongest journalistic protections in the world,

以及全球最完善的新聞保護法

with a new Nobel Prize

還有表達自由的

for freedom of speech.

諾貝爾獎

Iceland's a Nordic country,

冰島是個北歐國家

so, like Norway, it's able to tap into the system.

所以立法不難

And just a month ago,

約一個月前

this was passed by the Icelandic parliament unanimously.

已經在冰島議會一致通過了

CA: Wow.

哇

(Applause)

(掌聲)

Last question, Julian.

最後一個問題，Julian

When you think of the future then,

講到未來

do you think it's more likely to be

你認為發展會是如何？

Big Brother exerting more control,

是老大哥（小說《1984》的獨裁者角色）

more secrecy,

會有更多控制、更多秘密

or us watching

或是人民

Big Brother,

能監督老大哥

or it's just all to be played for either way?

或是兩邊都很有可能？

JA: I'm not sure which way it's going to go.

我不知道事情會變的如何

I mean, there's enormous pressures

推動言論自由的立法

to harmonize freedom of speech legislation

和全球透明立法的實現

and transparency legislation around the world --

我們面對極大的壓力

within the E.U.,

歐盟各國之間

between China and the United States.

還有中美之間

Which way is it going to go? It's hard to see.

事情會如何發展很難說

That's why it's a very interesting time to be in --

所以現在這年代很有趣

because with just a little bit of effort,

因為只要努力一點

we can shift it one way or the other.

結果會很不一樣

CA: Well, it looks like I'm reflecting the audience's opinion

最後我代表所有TED觀眾

to say, Julian, be careful,

Julian，請小心

and all power to you.

祝你順利

JA: Thank you, Chris. (CA: Thank you.)

謝謝

(Applause)

(掌聲)