Science can answer moral questions | Sam Harris

翻译人员: Coco Shen 校对人员: Tony Yet

I'm going to speak today about the relationship

今日我要讨论科学和人类价值观

between science and human values.

之间的关系

Now, it's generally understood that

我们一般认为

questions of morality --

有关道德问题

questions of good and evil and right and wrong --

善恶对错的概念

are questions about which science officially has no opinion.

是科学所不能解决和参与讨论的

It's thought that science can help us

人们认为科学可以帮助我们

get what we value,

得到我们所想要的

but it can never tell us what we ought to value.

却永远无法告诉我们什么是重要的

And, consequently, most people -- I think most people

于是大部分的人，甚至今日坐在这里的各位

probably here -- think that science will never answer

认为科学永远无法回答

the most important questions in human life:

人类生命中的重要问题

questions like, "What is worth living for?"

像是”我们为了什么活着？“

"What is worth dying for?"

”我们应该为什么牺牲？“

"What constitutes a good life?"

”什么样的生活，是一个幸福的生活？“

So, I'm going to argue

我想告诉大家

that this is an illusion -- that the separation between

把科学和人类价值观做分隔

science and human values is an illusion --

是一种人为假象

and actually quite a dangerous one

是一个非常危险的假象

at this point in human history.

尤其是在我们的今日社会

Now, it's often said that science

人们常说科学

cannot give us a foundation for morality and human values,

不能作为道德和价值观的基础

because science deals with facts,

因为科学讲求实证

and facts and values seem to belong to different spheres.

而事实和价值似乎是两种不同层次的事

It's often thought that there's no description

人们认为，就算把世界的模样

of the way the world is

描绘出来

that can tell us how the world ought to be.

也不能带我们走到乌托邦

But I think this is quite clearly untrue.

但我认为这很明显是错误的

Values are a certain kind of fact.

价值自然是一种实证

They are facts about the well-being of conscious creatures.

是人类如何可以获得幸福生活的实证

Why is it that we don't have ethical obligations toward rocks?

为什么我们对石头没有任何道德要求？

Why don't we feel compassion for rocks?

为什么我们对石头没有仁爱之情？

It's because we don't think rocks can suffer. And if we're more

因为我们不认为石头会受折磨

concerned about our fellow primates

如果和昆虫做比较

than we are about insects, as indeed we are,

我们比较关心我们自己的物种

it's because we think they're exposed to a greater range

那是因为我们认为我们比昆虫

of potential happiness and suffering.

能感受到更大程度的快乐或痛苦

Now, the crucial thing to notice here

其中的意义是

is that this is a factual claim:

这个说法是有实证的

This is something that we could be right or wrong about. And if we

这中间是有对错的

have misconstrued the relationship between biological complexity

如果我们在生物复杂性和知觉体验的关系上

and the possibilities of experience

做出了错误的推估

well then we could be wrong about the inner lives of insects.

那代表我们有可能错估了昆虫的内心生活

And there's no notion,

但是我发觉

no version of human morality

从没有一种道德

and human values that I've ever come across

和价值观

that is not at some point reducible

是和人类的感知体验

to a concern about conscious experience

和尝试改变这感知体验的可能性

and its possible changes.

无关的

Even if you get your values from religion,

就算你的价值观来自宗教

even if you think that good and evil ultimately

就算你认为善恶

relate to conditions after death --

和死后的结果有关联

either to an eternity of happiness with God

永远和神在快乐的国度里逍遥

or an eternity of suffering in hell --

或是永远在地狱之火中燃烧

you are still concerned about consciousness and its changes.

这仍然两种不同的感知体验有关

And to say that such changes can persist after death

认为这些体验会一直持续到死后的世界

is itself a factual claim,

也是在追求一种实证

which, of course, may or may not be true.

虽然谁也不知道死后的世界会如何

Now, to speak about the conditions of well-being

谈到幸福生活的基础

in this life, for human beings,

身为人类，在此生

we know that there is a continuum of such facts.

我们知道有些事实一直存在

We know that it's possible to live in a failed state,

我们知道你有可能会住在一个失序的国家

where everything that can go wrong does go wrong --

所有东西都有可能出错

where mothers cannot feed their children,

母亲无法喂养她们的孩子

where strangers cannot find the basis for peaceful collaboration,

人们找不到一个能保障和平的共识

where people are murdered indiscriminately.

人们被不分青红地谋杀

And we know that it's possible to move along this continuum

我们知道我们可以解决这些持续已久的问题

towards something quite a bit more idyllic,

走向一个较为理想的状况

to a place where a conference like this is even conceivable.

像我们现在这样，齐聚一堂，和平讨论

And we know -- we know --

我们知道，清楚知道

that there are right and wrong answers

想要达到这样的境界

to how to move in this space.

有对的，也有错误的方法

Would adding cholera to the water be a good idea?

在水中加入霍乱病毒是对的吗？

Probably not.

大概不是

Would it be a good idea for everyone to believe in the evil eye,

每个人都相信邪恶之眼的魔力

so that when bad things happened to them

于是当某些不幸事件发生

they immediately blame their neighbors? Probably not.

他们马上就开始怪罪他们的邻舍？大概也不是

There are truths to be known

我们应该去理解

about how human communities flourish,

人类社群迈向繁荣的方法

whether or not we understand these truths.

无论我们现在能不能理解

And morality relates to these truths.

或把这些事实和道德做联结

So, in talking about values we are talking about facts.

当我们讨论价值，我们就是在讨论事实

Now, of course our situation in the world can be understood at many levels --

世界的现况可以用很多不同层次来看

from the level of the genome

从染色体的层次

on up to the level of economic systems

一直到经济体系

and political arrangements.

和政治协议的层次

But if we're going to talk about human well-being

但如果我们回去思考人类幸福的议题

we are, of necessity, talking about the human brain.

我们必须谈到人类的大脑

Because we know that our experience of the world and of ourselves within it

因为我们知道我们对世界的看法、我们的体验和感知

is realized in the brain --

都是由大脑建构的

whatever happens after death.

无论死后会怎样

Even if the suicide bomber does get 72 virgins in the afterlife,

就算背着炸弹自杀死后能得到72个处女

in this life, his personality --

在此生，他的人格

his rather unfortunate personality --

这令人遗憾的人格

is the product of his brain.

也是由他的大脑所产出

So the contributions of culture --

于是，文化的贡献是 －

if culture changes us, as indeed it does,

是因为文化会改变我们的想法

it changes us by changing our brains.

也就是改变我们大脑的思考模式

And so therefore whatever cultural variation there is

于是不管有多少不同文化

in how human beings flourish

对人类的幸福有多少不同想法

can, at least in principle, be understood

都可以原则性地

in the context of a maturing science of the mind --

以成熟的闹内科学作为理解的办法

neuroscience, psychology, etc.

神经科学、心理学等等

So, what I'm arguing is that

我想说的是

value's reduced to facts --

价值观可以以事实

to facts about the conscious experience

有关人类感知体验的事实

of conscious beings.

作为准则

And we can therefore visualize a space

我们才有可能想象在某个情况下

of possible changes in the experience of these beings.

来改变这些人的体验

And I think of this as kind of a moral landscape,

这就像一片道德风景

with peaks and valleys that correspond

有不同的山巅和峡谷

to differences in the well-being of conscious creatures,

像是人类对于幸福生活的不同感知

both personal and collective.

无论是个人或群体的

And one thing to notice is that perhaps

我们该注意的是

there are states of human well-being

或许有个人类幸福的所在

that we rarely access, that few people access.

是我们从来没有去过的，很少人能达到的体验

And these await our discovery.

正在等待我们去发掘

Perhaps some of these states can be appropriately called

或许这些体验就是我们所说的

mystical or spiritual.

神秘或灵性的体验

Perhaps there are other states that we can't access

或许有些是我们根本无法体验的

because of how our minds are structured

因为我们的大脑有自己的回路

but other minds possibly could access them.

但其它人却有可能可以到达

Now, let me be clear about what I'm not saying. I'm not saying

我必须澄清，我并不是说

that science is guaranteed to map this space,

科学可以完全地为我们画出这份幸福地图

or that we will have scientific answers to every

或是科学可以回答所有的

conceivable moral question.

道德争议

I don't think, for instance, that you will one day consult

举例来说，我并不认为

a supercomputer to learn whether you should have a second child,

某天我们会和电脑商量我们是不是该生第二胎

or whether we should bomb Iran's nuclear facilities,

或是我们是不是应该轰炸伊朗的核子设备

or whether you can deduct the full cost of TED as a business expense.

或是参加TED演讲的经费是不是可以向公司报账

(Laughter)

（大笑）

But if questions affect human well-being

但如果这个问题是影响到人身幸福的

then they do have answers, whether or not we can find them.

他们是有答案的，无论我们找不着得到

And just admitting this --

承认吧

just admitting that there are right and wrong answers

当我们尝试解决人类幸福的问题

to the question of how humans flourish --

是可能会有错误答案的

will change the way we talk about morality,

承认这个事实能改变我们讨论道德的方法

and will change our expectations

也会改变我们在合作共创未来时

of human cooperation in the future.

所期待的结果

For instance, there are 21 states in our country

举例来说，在美国还有21个州

where corporal punishment in the classroom is legal,

在课堂上进行体罚是合法的

where it is legal for a teacher to beat a child with a wooden board, hard,

老师可以合法的用木板

and raising large bruises and blisters and even breaking the skin.

把孩子打得瘀伤、起水泡、甚至破皮

And hundreds of thousands of children, incidentally,

每年有千百个孩子

are subjected to this every year.

都在遭受这样的待遇

The locations of these enlightened districts, I think, will fail to surprise you.

而且我认为，你会很吃惊，这都是些什么省份

We're not talking about Connecticut.

不是康涅狄格州

And the rationale for this behavior is explicitly religious.

宗教往往是这些做法背后的理由

The creator of the universe himself

创造宇宙的造物主说

has told us not to spare the rod,

告诉我们不要”不忍用仗“

lest we spoil the child --

不然会宠坏孩子

this is in Proverbs 13 and 20, and I believe, 23.

这是《旧约箴言》第13章20，和23节

But we can ask the obvious question:

我们可以问一个简单的问题

Is it a good idea, generally speaking,

以常理判断

to subject children to pain

让孩子经历这样的痛苦

and violence and public humiliation

暴力和在众人面前被羞辱

as a way of encouraging healthy emotional development

会带来健康的情绪发展

and good behavior?

和良好行为模式吗？

(Laughter)

（笑声）

Is there any doubt

我们之中有人怀疑

that this question has an answer,

这个问题不但有解答

and that it matters?

而且对我们来说很重要？

Now, many of you might worry

或许在你们之中，有许多人会担心

that the notion of well-being is truly undefined,

这所谓的幸福该如何界定

and seemingly perpetually open to be re-construed.

这似乎没有一定的标准

And so, how therefore can there be an

而且，怎么可能有一种完全客观的

objective notion of well-being?

”人身幸福“的标准存在呢？

Well, consider by analogy, the concept of physical health.

如果是这样，难道因为对身体健康的概念

The concept of physical health is undefined.

没有一个真正的定论

As we just heard from Michael Specter, it has changed over the years.

如同 Michael Specter 适才说道，这些概念也会改变

When this statue was carved

在这个雕像产生的年代

the average life expectancy was probably 30.

人类的平均寿命是30

It's now around 80 in the developed world.

现在已发展国家的平均寿命是80

There may come a time when we meddle with our genomes

也许有一天，因为我们对基因的研究

in such a way that not being able to run a marathon

200岁不能跑马拉松

at age 200 will be considered a profound disability.

是一种残疾

People will send you donations when you're in that condition.

如果你有这种状况，人们会捐钱给你

(Laughter)

（笑声）

Notice that the fact that the concept of health

我们知道健康的观念会改变

is open, genuinely open for revision,

随时都可以重新思考

does not make it vacuous.

这不代表这些讨论是毫无意义的

The distinction between a healthy person

一个健康的人和一个死人

and a dead one

之间的差别

is about as clear and consequential as any we make in science.

在科学或理论里是一样的

Another thing to notice is there may be many peaks on the moral landscape:

另外一个该注意的事情是道德地图上虽然有很多山巅

There may be equivalent ways to thrive;

是有可能可以一起努力

there may be equivalent ways to organize a human society

一起找出一个管理人类社会的方法

so as to maximize human flourishing.

一起找出最大的幸福

Now, why wouldn't this

为什么我们不能将这个

undermine an objective morality?

当作客观道德的基础？

Well think of how we talk about food:

想象我们讨论食物的方式

I would never be tempted to argue to you

我永远不会和你争辩

that there must be one right food to eat.

人类应该有吃的自由

There is clearly a range of materials

一个健康的饮食方式中

that constitute healthy food.

有许多不同食物

But there's nevertheless a clear distinction

但从没有人会把食物和毒物

between food and poison.

搞错

The fact that there are many right answers

当我们问”什么是食物？“的时候

to the question, "What is food?"

有许多正确答案

does not tempt us

并不会阻止我们

to say that there are no truths to be known about human nutrition.

去研究营养学，找出更多事实

Many people worry

许多人担心

that a universal morality would require

普世道德必须有一种

moral precepts that admit of no exceptions.

严厉的基本教义，不允许例外

So, for instance, if it's really wrong to lie,

比如说，说谎是错误的

it must always be wrong to lie,

说谎永远是错误的

and if you can find an exception,

如果你能找到例外的话

well then there's no such thing as moral truth.

这就不是真正的道德

Why would we think this?

为什么我们会这样想

Consider, by analogy, the game of chess.

让我们以国际象棋为例

Now, if you're going to play good chess,

如果你想玩一盘漂亮的国际象棋

a principle like, "Don't lose your Queen,"

”别失去你的皇后“

is very good to follow.

是一个很好的原则

But it clearly admits some exceptions.

但它也有例外

There are moments when losing your Queen is a brilliant thing to do.

在某些时候牺牲皇后是一种很漂亮的打法

There are moments when it is the only good thing you can do.

在某些必要时刻，那是你唯一能做的

And yet, chess is a domain of perfect objectivity.

但国际象棋是一个绝对客观的游戏

The fact that there are exceptions here does not

就算在棋局中允许例外

change that at all.

也不会改变这个事实

Now, this brings us to the sorts of moves

在这个道德的场域里

that people are apt to make in the moral sphere.

有些事是我们应该做的

Consider the great problem of women's bodies:

想想女性身体政治

What to do about them?

我们该怎么做？

Well this is one thing you can do about them:

有个方法是

You can cover them up.

你可以把它们盖起来

Now, it is the position, generally speaking, of our intellectual community

普遍来说，我们的学术界是这样想的

that while we may not like this,

虽然我们不喜欢这样

we might think of this as "wrong"

我们觉得这样是错误的

in Boston or Palo Alto,

在波士顿或帕羅奧多

who are we to say

但我们怎么能说

that the proud denizens of an ancient culture

这些古老文化的骄傲后裔

are wrong to force their wives and daughters

不应该强迫它们的妻子和女儿

to live in cloth bags?

住在衣袋里？

And who are we to say, even, that they're wrong

我们怎么能说，他们是错误的

to beat them with lengths of steel cable,

当他们用钢索痛打她们

or throw battery acid in their faces

或是把强酸泼到她们脸上

if they decline the privilege of being smothered in this way?

如果她们拒绝被这样对待？

Well, who are we not to say this?

我们凭什么可以这样说呢？

Who are we to pretend

我们怎么可以装作

that we know so little about human well-being

我们完全不了解人类的幸福

that we have to be non-judgmental about a practice like this?

或是我们应该对此类行为保持中立？

I'm not talking about voluntary wearing of a veil --

我不是在说那些自发性的蒙头

women should be able to wear whatever they want, as far as I'm concerned.

我认为女人应该想穿什么就穿什么

But what does voluntary mean

但自发性是什么意思？

in a community where,

在一个女孩被强暴

when a girl gets raped,

他的父亲的第一个反应

her father's first impulse,

往往是谋杀她以免羞愧

rather often, is to murder her out of shame?

的这种社会，自发性是什么意思？

Just let that fact detonate in your brain for a minute:

让这些事实在你脑中转一转：

Your daughter gets raped,

你的女儿被强暴了

and what you want to do is kill her.

你的反应竟然是杀掉她

What are the chances that represents

请问你真的觉得这应该是

a peak of human flourishing?

人类幸福的一个可能吗？

Now, to say this is not to say that we have got the

我这么说，并不是说我们的社会

perfect solution in our own society.

有最完美的解答

For instance,

举例来说

this is what it's like to go to a newsstand almost anywhere

现在你到任何文明国家的报摊

in the civilized world.

都可以看到这样的景象

Now, granted, for many men

我必须承认，对大部分的男人来说

it may require a degree in philosophy to see something wrong with these images.

可能需要有博士学位才会觉得这有什么不对

(Laughter)

（笑声）

But if we are in a reflective mood,

但在我们自省的时候

we can ask,

我们也可以想

"Is this the perfect expression

“这样的东西会让我们

of psychological balance

学习尊重不同女性的

with respect to variables like youth and beauty and women's bodies?"

年龄和肉体吗？”

I mean, is this the optimal environment

难道我们会希望我们的孩子

in which to raise our children?

生在在这种视觉环境里吗？

Probably not. OK, so perhaps there's some place

大概不会。

on the spectrum

于是在这两个极端中

between these two extremes

应该有一个中间点

that represents a place of better balance.

能带来一种比较健康的平衡

(Applause)

（掌声）

Perhaps there are many such places --

或许这个平衡点不止一个

again, given other changes in human culture

在这个多元的世界里

there may be many peaks on the moral landscape.

我们的道德地图应该有许多不同的山峰

But the thing to notice is that there will be

但重点是

many more ways not to be on a peak.

这世界上还有许多不是这些山峰的地方

Now the irony, from my perspective,

在我看来，讽刺的事情是

is that the only people who seem to generally agree with me

一般会认同我说法的

and who think that there are right and wrong answers to moral questions

那些觉得道德争议是有正确和错误答案的

are religious demagogues of one form or another.

大都是一些宗教家

And of course they think they have right answers to moral questions

他们当然会觉得道德争议有正确答案

because they got these answers from a voice in a whirlwind,

因为他们已经在神秘之声中听到这些答案了

not because they made an intelligent analysis of the causes

而不是因为他们理智思考和分析过这些议题

and condition of human and animal well-being.

人类和动物的幸福快乐

In fact, the endurance of religion

事实上，在许久以来

as a lens through which most people view moral questions

宗教成为人们关注道德的角度

has separated most moral talk

让所有的道德议题

from real questions of human and animal suffering.

都和人类和动物的痛苦脱钩

This is why we spend our time

这就是为什么我们花费精神

talking about things like gay marriage

讨论同性恋是不是应该结婚

and not about genocide or nuclear proliferation

而不是种族灭绝或是核子武器激增

or poverty or any other hugely consequential issue.

或是贫穷和其它一样严重的议题

But the demagogues are right about one thing: We need

但这些宗教煽动者说对了一件事

a universal conception of human values.

我们需要一个普世价值

Now, what stands in the way of this?

为什么这会这么困难？

Well, one thing to notice is that we

其中一件是就是当我们讨论道德

do something different when talking about morality --

我们这些没有特殊宗教的、学术的、科学家型的人

especially secular, academic, scientist types.

就会产生差别待遇

When talking about morality we value differences of opinion

当我们讨论道德，我们就开始尊重不同意见

in a way that we don't in any other area of our lives.

但我们在其它方面不会这样做

So, for instance the Dalai Lama gets up every morning

举例来说，达赖喇嘛每天早上起来

meditating on compassion,

思考仁爱精神

and he thinks that helping other human beings is an integral component

他认为帮助其它人类是

of human happiness.

带来人类快乐的一部分

On the other hand, we have someone like Ted Bundy;

另外一边我们有 Ted Bundy

Ted Bundy was very fond of abducting and raping

他的兴趣是绑架和强暴

and torturing and killing young women.

虐待和杀害这些年轻女孩

So, we appear to have a genuine difference of opinion

很明显的，这里我们看到每个人对打发时间

about how to profitably use one's time.

都有不同的看法

(Laughter)

（笑声）

Most Western intellectuals

大部分的西方学者

look at this situation

看到这个状况

and say, "Well, there's nothing for the Dalai Lama

会说，“嗯事实上达赖喇嘛也不是

to be really right about -- really right about --

完全正确，绝对正确

or for Ted Bundy to be really wrong about

Ted Bundy 也不是绝对错误

that admits of a real argument

这其中没有真正的讨论价值

that potentially falls within the purview of science.

这是科学范畴的事

He likes chocolate, he likes vanilla.

他喜欢巧克力，他喜欢香草

There's nothing that one should be able to say to the other

无论跟他们说什么

that should persuade the other."

都不能改变他们。”

Notice that we don't do this in science.

但我们不会这样讨论科学

On the left you have Edward Witten.

左边这位是爱德华·威滕

He's a string theorist.

他是弦理论的专家

If you ask the smartest physicists around

如果你问你旁边最聪明的物理学家

who is the smartest physicist around,

谁是世界上最聪明的物理学家

in my experience half of them will say Ed Witten.

我的经验是一半都会说是爱德华·威滕

The other half will tell you they don't like the question.

另外一半会告诉你”她们不喜欢这个问题“

(Laughter)

（笑声）

So, what would happen if I showed up at a physics conference

那么，如果我出现在一个物理研讨会

and said,"String theory is bogus.

然后说”弦理论是个假货

It doesn't resonate with me. It's not how I chose to

我对它没有感觉，这不是我选择

view the universe at a small scale.

的宇宙观

I'm not a fan."

我不是那派的。“

(Laughter)

（笑声）

Well, nothing would happen because I'm not a physicist;

什么都不会发生，因为我不是物理学家

I don't understand string theory.

我不懂弦理论

I'm the Ted Bundy of string theory.

我是弦理论的 Ted Bundy

(Laughter)

（笑声）

I wouldn't want to belong to any string theory club that would have me as a member.

我不想加入任何愿意接受我的弦理论社团

But this is just the point.

这就是重点

Whenever we are talking about facts

当我们谈论事实

certain opinions must be excluded.

我们必须排除某些意见

That is what it is to have a domain of expertise.

那就是为什么我们有专业

That is what it is for knowledge to count.

那就是为什么我们应该依靠知识

How have we convinced ourselves

无论我们怎么和自己说

that in the moral sphere there is no such thing as moral expertise,

在道德里没有所谓的道德专家

or moral talent, or moral genius even?

道德人才，或甚至道德天才

How have we convinced ourselves

为什么我们要说服自己

that every opinion has to count?

所有的意见都应该纳入考虑？

How have we convinced ourselves

我们是怎么说服自己

that every culture has a point of view

所有的文化对这些事情都有自己的观点

on these subjects worth considering?

而我们都应该把他们纳入考量？

Does the Taliban

难道塔利班

have a point of view on physics

对物理学的意见

that is worth considering? No.

也值得我们考虑吗？不。

(Laughter)

（笑声）

How is their ignorance any less obvious

但他们对幸福的无知

on the subject of human well-being?

和他们对物理的无知有什么不同？

(Applause)

（掌声）

So, this, I think, is what the world needs now.

现在世界所需要的是

It needs people like ourselves to admit

像我们这样的人们承认

that there are right and wrong answers

在人类的幸福问题中

to questions of human flourishing,

是有正确和错误答案的

and morality relates

以及道德

to that domain of facts.

是和事实有直接关联的

It is possible

个人

for individuals, and even for whole cultures,

或整个文化

to care about the wrong things,

过分关心某些错误议题是绝对可能的

which is to say that it's possible for them

他们的信仰和想法也绝对有可能

to have beliefs and desires that reliably lead

为人类带来

to needless human suffering.

无必要的痛苦

Just admitting this will transform our discourse about morality.

承认这些事实会改变我们讨论道德的方式

We live in a world in which

在今日世界中

the boundaries between nations mean less and less,

国界的意义不断减弱

and they will one day mean nothing.

有一天国界将没有任何意义

We live in a world filled with destructive technology,

我们住在一个充满危险科技的世界

and this technology cannot be uninvented;

这些科技可以不要被发明

it will always be easier

因为捣毁一样事情

to break things than to fix them.

永远比重建容易

It seems to me, therefore, patently obvious

我认为，很明显地

that we can no more

我们不能再

respect and tolerate

尊重和容忍这些

vast differences in notions of human well-being

对人类幸福的不同观点

than we can respect or tolerate vast differences

就像我们不会尊重和容忍

in the notions about how disease spreads,

传染病的散播

or in the safety standards of buildings and airplanes.

或是建筑和飞机的安全标准

We simply must converge

我们必须承认，这些问题

on the answers we give to the most important questions in human life.

能找到解答，才有可能

And to do that, we have to admit that these questions have answers.

回答人类生命中最重要的这些问题。

Thank you very much.

谢谢大家。

(Applause)

（掌声）

Chris Anderson: So, some combustible material there.

Chris Anderson：让我提出一些争议性的问题

Whether in this audience or people elsewhere in the world,

这里有某些人，或现在在世界上别的角落

hearing some of this, may well be doing the

可能有人听见这个

screaming-with-rage thing, after as well, some of them.

然后愤怒或尖叫。某些人。

Language seems to be really important here.

语言似乎是个很重要的元素

When you're talking about the veil,

但你提到面罩的时候

you're talking about women dressed in cloth bags.

你是说那些把全身蒙住的女人吗

I've lived in the Muslim world, spoken with a lot of Muslim women.

我曾在回教国家居住，和许多回教妇女谈话

And some of them would say something else. They would say,

她们可能会有别种想法。她们会说

"No, you know, this is a celebration

”不，这是对女性的一种礼赞

of female specialness,

凸显我们是特别的，

it helps build that and it's a result of the fact that" --

这帮助我们这个，而且是因为那个……“

and this is arguably a sophisticated psychological view --

当然这不是一种非常可靠的心理学论点

"that male lust is not to be trusted."

”你不能信任男人的情欲“

I mean, can you engage in a conversation

我们是否可以用一种

with that kind of woman without seeming kind of cultural imperialist?

不带着文化帝国主义的角度和这些女人讨论这些问题

Sam Harris: Yeah, well I think I tried to broach this in a sentence,

Sam Harris：让我一边看着秒针

watching the clock ticking,

一边尝试简短回答这个问题

but the question is:

真正的问题是

What is voluntary in a context

这真的是她们的个人意愿吗

where men have certain expectations,

在男人期待你戴上面罩

and you're guaranteed to be treated in a certain way

如果不戴就必须承受某种后果

if you don't veil yourself?

的状况下？

And so, if anyone in this room

如果在这个房间里

wanted to wear a veil,

有任何人想要戴面罩

or a very funny hat, or tattoo their face --

一个非常可笑的帽子，或是在脸上刺青

I think we should be free to voluntarily do whatever we want,

我想每个人应该做我们想做的，在自愿的情况下

but we have to be honest about

但我们必须诚实面对

the constraints that these women are placed under.

这些女人的处境

And so I think we shouldn't be so eager

我认为我们不应该太快地

to always take their word for it,

接受她们的说法

especially when it's 120 degrees out

尤其在120度高温

and you're wearing a full burqa.

而你竟然必须蒙住全身的状况下

CA: A lot of people want to believe in this

许多人想要相信

concept of moral progress.

道德进步的这个概念

But can you reconcile that?

但是这有可能达到和谐吗？

I think I understood you to say that you could

我想我了解你所说的

reconcile that with a world that doesn't become

不要让世界变得只有一种道德

one dimensional, where we all have to think the same.

也不需要大家都只有一种想法

Paint your picture of what

你可以告诉我们

rolling the clock 50 years forward,

如果我们快转到50年后

100 years forward, how you would like to think of

100年后，你希望我们的世界

the world, balancing moral progress

能如何在道德进步和多元文化中

with richness.

找到平衡

SH: Well, I think once you admit

一旦我们承认

that we are on the path toward understanding our minds

我们走在解构理性的路上

at the level of the brain in some important detail,

以理解大脑运作的方法

then you have to admit

那么你也必须承认

that we are going to understand all of the positive

我们将会更明白

and negative qualities

我们身上的这些

of ourselves in much greater detail.

正面和负面的特质

So, we're going to understand positive social emotion

我们会理解正面的社群特质

like empathy and compassion,

像是同情心、仁爱心

and we're going to understand the factors

我们将会了解是怎样的元素

that encourage it -- whether they're genetic,

帮助我们有这些特质 － 无论是基因

whether they're how people talk to one another,

是人们对话的方式

whether they're economic systems,

是经济体系

and insofar as we begin to shine light on that

我们正要开始发现

we are inevitably going to converge

并无可避免的步向

on that fact space.

这些事实

So, everything is not going to be up for grabs.

我们不能再自由心证

It's not going to be like

为了得到男人的青睐

veiling my daughter from birth

就让我刚出生的女儿蒙头

is just as good as teaching her

或是教导她成为一个

to be confident and well-educated

自信而有教养的女性

in the context of men who do desire women.

是完全不同的两件事

I mean I don't think we need an NSF grant to know

我想我们不需要国家科学基金会特别拨款

that compulsory veiling is a bad idea --

才能发现强制女人蒙头很不好

but at a certain point

到了某种程度

we're going to be able to scan the brains of everyone involved

我们可以扫描每个人的头脑

and actually interrogate them.

并研究它们

Do people love their daughters

人们真的爱它们的女儿吗

just as much in these systems?

就算在那样的文化下？

And I think there are clearly right answers to that.

我想这些问题是有正确答案的。

CA: And if the results come out that actually they do,

C.A.：如果结论是她们真的快乐

are you prepared to shift your instinctive current judgment

你准备好改变你现在的直观判断了吗

on some of these issues?

在这些议题上

SH: Well yeah, modulo one obvious fact,

S.H.：举个真实案例

that you can love someone

就算在一个虚假的道德体系里

in the context of a truly delusional belief system.

你还是可以爱人

So, you can say like, "Because I knew my gay son

你会说，“因为我爱我的儿子，

was going to go to hell if he found a boyfriend,

我不想他因为他的男朋友下地狱

I chopped his head off. And that was the most compassionate thing I could do."

于是我把他的头砍下来，这就是我对他的爱

If you get all those parts aligned,

如果你能找到一个均衡

yes I think you could probably be feeling the emotion of love.

是的你仍然可以感觉到一种爱

But again, then we have to talk about

但是我们也必须把幸福

well-being in a larger context.

放到更大的背景下来谈

It's all of us in this together,

这是我们共同的功课

not one man feeling ecstasy

不是一个男人进入一种狂喜状态

and then blowing himself up on a bus.

就可以在巴士上把自己炸掉

CA: Sam, this is a conversation I would actually love to

C.A.：我很希望这个对话可以继续

continue for hours.

几个小时

We don't have that, but maybe another time. Thank you for coming to TED.

虽然现在不行，或许在不远的将来。谢谢你来 TED 演讲

SH: Really an honor. Thank you.

S.H.：是我的荣幸，谢谢你。

(Applause)

（掌声）