Moral behavior in animals | Frans de Waal

Translator: Miha Helbl Reviewer: Lenka Tušar

I was born in Den Bosch,

Rodil sem se v mestu Den Bosch

where the painter Hieronymus Bosch named himself after.

po katerem se je poimenoval slikar Hieronymus Bosch.

And I've always been very fond of this painter

Zato mi je bil ta slikar, ki je živel

in deloval v 15. stoletju, zelo pri srcu.

who lived and worked in the 15th century.

And what is interesting about him in relation to morality

Pri njem mi je v povezavi z moralnostjo še posebej zanimivo,

da je živel v času pojemanja vpliva vere

is that he lived at a time where religion's influence was waning,

in se je najbrž spraševal,

and he was sort of wondering, I think,

kaj bi se z družbo zgodilo,

what would happen with society if there was no religion

če religije ne bi bilo ali če bi je bilo manj.

or if there was less religion.

And so he painted this famous painting, "The Garden of Earthly Delights,"

Zato je naslikal znameniti "Vrt zemeljskih naslad,"

v katerem so nekateri videli

which some have interpreted as being humanity before the Fall,

človeštvo pred Propadom

or being humanity without any Fall at all.

ali človeštvo brez vsakršnega Propada.

Zato se včasih zamisliš,

And so it makes you wonder,

what would happen if we hadn't tasted the fruit of knowledge, so to speak,

kaj bi se zgodilo, če tako rekoč ne bi nikoli okusili sadeža znanja,

in kakšno moralo bi potem imeli?

and what kind of morality would we have.

Mnogo kasneje sem kot študent

Much later, as a student, I went to a very different garden,

obiskal zelo drugačen vrt.

a zoological garden in Arnhem where we keep chimpanzees.

Bil je živalski vrt v Arnhemu,

kjer skrbimo za šimpanze.

This is me at an early age with a baby chimpanzee.

Tukaj me lahko vidite v mladih letih skupaj z majhnim šimpanzom.

(Smeh)

(Laughter)

Tam sem ugotovil,

And I discovered there

that the chimpanzees are very power-hungry and wrote a book about it.

da so šimpanzi zelo oblastiželjni in sem o tem tudi napisal knjigo.

Takrat so se raziskave o živalih močno osredotočale

And at that time the focus in a lot of animal research

was on aggression and competition.

na agresijo in tekmovalnost.

Celotna slika, ki sem si jo narisal o živalskem kraljestvu,

I painted a whole picture of the animal kingdom

vključno s človeštvom,

and humanity included, was that deep down we are competitors, we are aggressive,

je prikazovala, da smo globoko v sebi tekmeci.

Agresivni smo,

we are all out for our own profit, basically.

vedno iščemo priložnost, da bi se okoristili.

This is the launch of my book.

To je izdaja moje knjige.

I'm not sure how well the chimpanzees read it,

Nisem prepričan, kako je šimpanzom šlo pri branju,

vendar izgleda, da jim je bila knjiga zelo zanimiva.

but they surely seemed interested in the book.

(Laughter)

Now in the process of doing all this work

Med raziskovanjem

moči, dominance

on power and dominance and aggression and so on,

in agresije in tako dalje,

I discovered that chimpanzees reconcile after fights.

sem opazil, da se šimpanzi po prepirih pobotajo.

Tukaj lahko vidite dva samca po prepiru.

And so what you see here is two males who have had a fight.

They ended up in a tree, and one of them holds out a hand to the other.

Končala sta na drevesu in eden od njiju ima k drugemu iztegnjeno roko.

Takoj zatem, ko sem naredil posnetek, sta se srečala pri razcepu drevesa,

And about a second after I took the picture,

they came together in the fork of the tree

nakar sta se poljubila in objela.

and kissed and embraced each other.

To je zelo zanimivo,

And this is very interesting

ker se je takrat vse vrtelo okrog tekmovalnosti in agresije

because at the time, everything was about competition and aggression,

in kaj takšnega ni bilo preveč smiselno.

so it wouldn't make any sense.

Pomembno je le ali zmagaš ali zgubiš.

The only thing that matters is that you win or you lose.

Toda zakaj bi se po prepiru zopet spoprijateljil?

But why reconcile after a fight? That doesn't make any sense.

To je popolnoma sprto z logiko.

This is the way bonobos do it. Bonobos do everything with sex.

Tako to počnejo bonobi, ki vse dosežejo prek seksa.

And so they also reconcile with sex.

Zato se tudi spoprijateljijo s seksom.

But the principle is exactly the same.

Toda princip ostane enak.

The principle is that you have a valuable relationship

Po principu imamo

pomembno razmerje,

that is damaged by conflict, so you need to do something about it.

ki ga poškoduje konflikt,

in moraš glede tega nekaj storiti.

So my whole picture of the animal kingdom, and including humans also,

Takrat se je začela moja celotna slika

živalskega kraljestva in človeštva

začela spreminjati.

started to change at that time.

Tako imamo znotraj

So we have this image in political science, economics, the humanities,

politologije, ekonomije, družboslovja

in filozofije to idejo,

the philosophy for that matter, that man is a wolf to man.

da je človek človeku volk.

Zato je globoko v nas naša narava prav nizkotna.

And so deep down, our nature is actually nasty.

Sem mnenja, da je to precej nepošteno do volka.

I think it's a very unfair image for the wolf.

Volk je navsezadnje zelo

The wolf is, after all, a very cooperative animal.

sodelovalna žival.

And that's why many of you have a dog at home,

Zato imate tudi mnogi doma psa,

which has all these characteristics also.

ki ima zelo podobne lastnosti.

Je pa tudi zelo nepošteno do človeštva,

And it's really unfair to humanity,

because humanity is actually much more cooperative and empathic

ker je človeštvo veliko bolj sodelovalno in sočutno

than given credit for.

kot želimo priznati.

So I started getting interested in those issues

Zato sem se začel zanimati za te zadeve

and studying that in other animals.

in sem jih začel raziskovati pri drugih živalih.

To sta stebra morale.

So these are the pillars of morality.

If you ask anyone, "What is morality based on?"

Če bi nekoga vprašali: "Na čem temelji morala?",

these are the two factors that always come out.

bi vedno na koncu prišli do teh dveh dejavnikov.

One is reciprocity,

Eden je vzajemnost,

and associated with it is a sense of justice and a sense of fairness.

ki ga povezujemo z občutkom za pravico in občutkom za pravičnost.

Drugi dejavnik pa je empatija in sočutje.

And the other one is empathy and compassion.

Človeška moralnost je veliko več kot to.

And human morality is more than this, but if you would remove these two pillars,

Toda če bi ta dva stebra odstranili,

there would be not much remaining, I think.

se mi zdi, da ne bi ostalo prav veliko.

So they're absolutely essential.

Zato sta bistvenega pomena.

So let me give you a few examples here.

Naj vam dam par primerov.

This is a very old video from the Yerkes Primate Center,

To je zelo star posnetek raziskovalnega centra Yerkes Primate Center,

kjer učijo šimpanze sodelovanja.

where they trained chimpanzees to cooperate.

Torej smo že pred skoraj sto leti

So this is already about a hundred years ago

that we were doing experiments on cooperation.

izvajali poskuse o sodelovanju.

What you have here is two young chimpanzees who have a box,

Tukaj imamo dva mlada šimpanza in škatlo,

ki je pretežka, da bi jo lahko k sebi potegnil en sam šimpanz.

and the box is too heavy for one chimp to pull in.

Seveda je na škatli hrana,

And of course, there's food on the box.

drugače se ne bi tako zelo trudila.

Otherwise they wouldn't be pulling so hard.

In tako vlečeta škatlo k sebi.

And so they're bringing in the box.

Kot lahko vidite, sta sinhronizirana.

And you can see that they're synchronized.

Vidite lahko tudi, da sodelujeta in vlečeta istočasno.

You can see that they work together, they pull at the same moment.

Že to je velik nepredek pred drugimi živalskimi vrstami,

It's already a big advance over many other animals

ki tega niso zmožne.

who wouldn't be able to do that.

Now you're going to get a more interesting picture,

Zdaj pa boste videli nekaj še bolj zanimivega,

ker je eden od šimpanzov že bil nahranjen.

because now one of the two chimps has been fed.

So one of the two is not really interested in the task anymore.

Enemu od njiju zato naloga

ni več tako pomembna.

(Smeh)

(Laughter)

(Smeh)

(Laughter)

(Smeh)

(Laughter)

[- and sometimes appears to convey its wishes and meanings by gestures.]

Poglejte, kaj se zgodi na koncu.

Now look at what happens at the very end of this.

(Laughter)

(Smeh)

He takes basically everything.

Pojé enostavno vse.

(Laughter)

(Smeh)

There are two interesting parts about this.

Ta prizor lahko razdelimo na dva dela.

One is that the chimp on the right

Prvi je ta, da se šimpanz na desni

has a full understanding he needs the partner --

popolnoma zaveda, da potrebuje partnerja --

so a full understanding of the need for cooperation.

torej zavedanje potrebe po sodelovanju.

Drugi del pa je, da je partner pripravljen pomagati,

The second one is that the partner is willing to work

even though he's not interested in the food.

čeprav ga hrana ne zanima.

Why would that be?

Zakaj je to tako? Najverjetneje gre za vzajemnost.

Well, that probably has to do with reciprocity.

Imamo že veliko dokazov, da si primati in ostale živali

There's actually a lot of evidence in primates and other animals

vračajo usluge.

that they return favors.

Torej bo njemu usluga

He will get a return favor at some point in the future.

nekoč v prihodnosti tudi povrnjena.

And so that's how this all operates.

In tako vse to deluje.

Enako nalogo smo dali slonom.

We do the same task with elephants.

Delo s sloni je lahko zelo nevarno.

Now, it's very dangerous to work with elephants.

Drug problem pri slonih pa je,

Another problem with elephants is that you cannot make an apparatus

da ni možno narediti naprave,

that is too heavy for a single elephant.

ki bi bila za enega slona pretežka.

Now you can probably make it,

No, najbrž jo je možno narediti,

but it's going to be a pretty clumsy apparatus, I think.

ampak se mi zdi, da naprava ne bi bila zelo stabilna.

Zato smo v tem primeru --

And so what we did in that case --

we do these studies in Thailand for Josh Plotnik --

te študije opravljamo na Tajskem z Joshem Plotnikom --

is we have an apparatus around which there is a rope, a single rope.

sestavili smo napravo, okrog katere je navita ena sama vrv.

Če vrv potegneš na enem koncu,

And if you pull on this side of the rope, the rope disappears on the other side.

bo konec na drugi strani izginil.

Zato jo morata slona zagrabiti ob istem času in jo potegniti k sebi skupaj.

So two elephants need to pick it up at exactly the same time, and pull.

Drugače se ne bi zgodilo nič

Otherwise nothing is going to happen and the rope disappears.

in bi vrv izginila.

The first tape you're going to see

Na prvem posnetku boste videli dva slona,

is two elephants who are released together arrive at the apparatus.

ki smo ju spustili istočasno

in se približata napravi.

The apparatus is on the left, with food on it.

Naprava je na levi strani in na njej je hrana.

Tako odideta skupaj, skupaj prispeta,

And so they come together, they arrive together,

skupaj vrv dvigneta in jo skupaj potegneta.

they pick it up together, and they pull together.

To je zanju v bistvu precej enostavno.

So it's actually fairly simple for them.

Tukaj ju imamo.

There they are.

In tako jo potegneta k sebi.

So that's how they bring it in.

Zdaj pa bomo dvignili zahtevnost.

But now we're going to make it more difficult.

Celoten namen poskusa je odkriti,

Because the purpose of this experiment

do kolikšne mere sta sposobna razumevati sodelovanje.

is to see how well they understand cooperation.

Torej, ali sta na primer zmožna istega razumevanja kot šimpanzi?

Do they understand that as well as the chimps, for example?

Zato smo v naslednjem koraku

What we do in the next step is we release one elephant before the other

spustili prvo enega in potem drugega slona.

and that elephant needs to be smart enough

Prvi slon mora biti dovolj pameten,

to stay there and wait and not pull at the rope --

da se bo ustavil, počakal in ne bo potegnil vrvi --

če vrv potegne, bo ta izginila in se test s tem konča.

because if he pulls at the rope, it disappears and the whole test is over.

Toda ta slon krši pravila igre,

Now this elephant does something illegal that we did not teach it.

nekaj kar ga nismo naučili.

But it shows the understanding he has,

Vendar pokaže, da se je nečesa le naučil,

saj s svojo veliko nogo stopi na vrv,

because he puts his big foot on the rope,

stands on the rope and waits there for the other,

na njej stoji in počaka na drugega slona.

Tako bo drugi slon opravil vso delo namesto njega.

and then the other is going to do all the work for him.

So it's what we call freeloading.

Tako rekoč živi na njegov račun.

(Laughter)

(Smeh)

Vendar vseeno pokaže, kako inteligentni so sloni.

But it shows the intelligence that the elephants have.

Zmožni so razviti te dodatne spretnosti,

They developed several of these alternative techniques

that we did not approve of, necessarily.

ki jih načeloma nismo dovolili.

(Laughter)

So the other elephant is now coming ...

Zdaj že prihaja drugi slon

in bo sedaj napravo potegnil k sebi.

and is going to pull it in.

Zdaj pa poglejte še drugega. Seveda ne pozabi na hrano.

Now look at the other; it doesn't forget to eat, of course.

(Smeh)

(Laughter)

This was the cooperation and reciprocity part.

To je bilo sodelovanje, vzajemnostni del.

Zdaj pa še empatija.

Now something on empathy.

Empathy is my main topic at the moment, of research.

Empatija je trenutno v raziskavah glavna tema

And empathy has two qualities:

in ima na nek način dve lastnosti.

One is the understanding part of it.

Ena je razumevanje. To je zgolj osnovna definicija:

This is just a regular definition:

sposobnost razumevanja in deljenja čustev z drugimi.

the ability to understand and share the feelings of another.

Imamo pa še čustveni del.

And the emotional part.

Empatija tako deluje na dveh kanalih.

Empathy has basically two channels: One is the body channel,

Eden je kanal telesa.

If you talk with a sad person,

Če se pogovarjamo z žalostno osebo,

you're going to adopt a sad expression and a sad posture,

bomo prevzeli žalosten izraz in žalostno držo

and before you know it, you feel sad.

in se bomo slej kot prej tudi počutili žalostno.

And that's sort of the body channel of emotional empathy,

To je nekakšen telesni kanal čustvene empatije,

ki jo imajo mnoge živali.

which many animals have.

Najdemo jo tudi pri psih.

Your average dog has that also.

That's why people keep mammals in the home

Zato imajo ljudje doma rajši sesalce namesto

and not turtles or snakes or something like that,

želv, kač ali česa podobnega,

ki niso zmožni tovrstne empatije.

who don't have that kind of empathy.

And then there's a cognitive channel,

Drugi kanal pa je kognitivni,

which is more that you can take the perspective of somebody else.

zaradi katerega smo zmožni prevzeti perspektivo nekoga drugega.

To je zelo omejeno.

And that's more limited.

Very few animals, I think elephants and apes, can do that kind of thing.

Zelo malo živali -- mislim, da so tega sposobni sloni in človeku podobne opice --

toda zelo malo živali je tega sposobnih.

Torej sinhronizacija,

So synchronization,

ki je del celotnega mehanizma empatije,

which is part of that whole empathy mechanism,

je v živalskem kraljsetvu prisotna že zelo dolgo.

is a very old one in the animal kingdom.

Pri ljudeh lahko to proučujemo

In humans, of course, we can study that with yawn contagion.

z nalezovanjem zehanja.

Humans yawn when others yawn.

Človek zazeha, ko zazehajo drugi,

And it's related to empathy.

kar je povezano z empatijo.

It activates the same areas in the brain.

Signali prihajajo iz istih delov možganov.

Also, we know that people who have a lot of yawn contagion

Vemo tudi, da so ljudje, ki se zelo hitro nalezejo zehanja,

zelo empatični.

are highly empathic.

People who have problems with empathy, such as autistic children,

Ljudje, ki imajo z empatijo težave, na primer avtistični otroci,

se zehanja ne nalezejo.

they don't have yawn contagion.

Vse je torej povezano.

So it is connected.

And we study that in our chimpanzees by presenting them with an animated head.

Pri naših šimpanzih to proučujemo tako, da jim predvajamo animirano glavo.

Torej v zgornjem levem kotu lahko vidite

So that's what you see on the upper-left, an animated head that yawns.

animirano glavo, ki zeha.

Animacijo pa gleda šimpanz,

And there's a chimpanzee watching,

an actual real chimpanzee watching a computer screen

pravi živi šimpanz si ogleduje animacije

on which we play these animations.

na računalniškem zaslonu.

(Smeh)

(Laughter)

Nalezljivost zehanja,

So yawn contagion that you're probably all familiar with --

ki jo najbrž vsi poznate --

and maybe you're going to start yawning soon now --

mogoče boste tudi vi začeli kmalu zehati --

is something that we share with other animals.

je nekaj, kar si delimo z ostalimi živalmi.

And that's related to that whole body channel of synchronization

Povezana je tudi s celotnim telesnim kanalom sinhronizacije,

that underlies empathy,

ki tvori osnovo empatije

and that is universal in the mammals, basically.

in je praktično prisoten pri vseh sesalcih.

We also study more complex expressions -- This is consolation.

Proučujemo tudi nekoliko bolj zapletene izraze. To je tolažba.

This is a male chimpanzee who has lost a fight and he's screaming,

Ta samec je izgubil v boju in kriči.

and a juvenile comes over and puts an arm around him

Do njega stopi mlajši šimpanz in ovije okrog njega roko,

da bi ga pomiril.

and calms him down.

That's consolation.

To je tolažba in je zelo podobna človeški tolažbi.

It's very similar to human consolation.

And consolation behavior --

Tolažba je uravnavana

(Laughter)

s strani empatije.

it's empathy driven.

Actually, the way to study empathy in human children

Pri človeških otrocih empatijo proučujemo

is to instruct a family member to act distressed,

s pomočjo družinskih članov, ki hlinijo žalost

in potem opazujemo odziv otrok.

and then to see what young children do.

Zato je povezana z empatijo

And so it is related to empathy,

in takšne odzive proučujemo.

and that's the kind of expressions we look at.

We also recently published an experiment you may have heard about.

Pred kratkim smo objavili poskus, za katerega ste morda že slišali.

It's on altruism and chimpanzees,

Bil je poskus o nesebičnosti in šimpanzih

where the question is: Do chimpanzees care about the welfare of somebody else?

pri kateremu smo si postavili vprašanje, ali je

šimpanzom mar za dobrobit drugih?

And for decades it had been assumed that only humans can do that,

Več desetletij smo predvidevali,

da so tega zmožni samo ljudje,

that only humans worry about the welfare of somebody else.

da bi se samo človek bal za dobrobit nekoga drugega.

Now we did a very simple experiment.

Opravili smo zelo enostaven poskus.

Izvedli smo ga na šimpanzih v Lawrencevillu,

We do that on chimpanzees that live in Lawrenceville,

na Yerkesovi terenski postaji.

in the field station of Yerkes.

And so that's how they live.

Tako živijo.

And we call them into a room and do experiments with them.

Pokličemo jih v sobo in z njimi opravljamo poskuse.

In this case, we put two chimpanzees side-by-side,

Tukaj smo imeli dva šimpanza enega ob drugem.

and one has a bucket full of tokens, and the tokens have different meanings.

Eden od njiju ima vedro polno žetonov, ki imajo različne pomene.

Prva vrsta žetonov nahrani samo sodelujočega, ki izbira,

One kind of token feeds only the partner who chooses,

the other one feeds both of them.

druga vrsta nahrani oba.

So this is a study we did with Vicki Horner.

To je raziskava, ki smo jo opravili z Vicky Horner.

And here, you have the two color tokens.

To so različno obarvani žetoni.

Imata jih polno vedro.

So they have a whole bucket full of them.

Izbrati morata eno od obeh barv.

And they have to pick one of the two colors.

Videli boste, kako to poteka.

You will see how that goes.

Ta šimpanz torej sprejme sebično odločitev,

So if this chimp makes the selfish choice,

v tem primeru je to rdeč žeton,

which is the red token in this case,

ki ga mora dati nam.

he needs to give it to us,

we pick it up, we put it on a table where there's two food rewards,

Vzamemo ga, in ga položimo na mizo, kjer sta dve nagradi v obliki hrane,

vendar v tem primeru dobi hrano samo tisti na desni.

but in this case, only the one on the right gets food.

The one on the left walks away because she knows already

Tista na levi odide, ker že ve,

da ta poskus ni njej v prid.

that this is not a good test for her.

Then the next one is the pro-social token.

Naslednji bo prosocialen žeton.

Torej tisti, ki izbira -- in zdaj prihaja zanimiv del --

So the one who makes the choices -- that's the interesting part here --

za tistega, ki izbira,

for the one who makes the choices, it doesn't really matter.

je v bistvu vseeno.

So she gives us now a pro-social token and both chimps get fed.

Zdaj nam da prosocialen žeton in zato oba šimpanza dobita hrano.

So the one who makes the choices always gets a reward.

Tisti, ki izbira, je torej vedno nagrajen.

So it doesn't matter whatsoever.

Zato je povsem vseeno.

And she should actually be choosing blindly.

Lahko bi izbirala na slepo.

Vendar smo odkrili,

But what we find is that they prefer the pro-social token.

da raje izberejo prosocialne žetone.

So this is the 50 percent line, that's the random expectation.

Črta na 50 odstotkih označuje pričakovane naključne izbire.

And especially if the partner draws attention to itself, they choose more.

Če bo drugi sodelujoči nase pritegoval pozornost, bo izbir več.

Če pa sodelujoči pritiska na drugega --

And if the partner puts pressure on them --

so if the partner starts spitting water and intimidating them --

če bo na primer pljuval vodo ali začel z ustrahovanjem --

then the choices go down.

v tem primeru izbire upadejo.

(Laughter)

It's as if they're saying,

Kot bi želel povedati:

"If you're not behaving, I'm not going to be pro-social today."

"Če ne boš priden, potem danes ne bom prosocialen."

To pa se zgodi, če je sam,

And this is what happens without a partner,

če ni še enega udeleženca.

when there's no partner sitting there.

Tako smo odkrili, da šimpanze skrbi

So we found that the chimpanzees do care about the well-being of somebody else --

za dobrobit nekoga drugega --

especially, these are other members of their own group.

še posebej, če se gre za ostale člane njihove skupine.

Zadnji poskus, ki sem ga želel omeniti,

So the final experiment that I want to mention to you

je naša raziskava poštenosti.

is our fairness study.

And so this became a very famous study.

Ta raziskava je zelo slavna.

And there are now many more,

Danes jih je veliko več,

because after we did this about 10 years ago,

ker smo jo opravili pred približno desetimi leti

it became very well-known.

in je pozneje postala zelo znana.

And we did that originally with Capuchin monkeys.

Prvotno smo ga izvajali na kapucinkah.

Pokazal vam bom naš prvi poskus.

And I'm going to show you the first experiment that we did.

It has now been done with dogs and with birds

Do sedaj je že bil opravljen na psih, ptičih

and with chimpanzees.

in šimpanzih.

But with Sarah Brosnan, we started out with Capuchin monkeys.

Toda z Sarah Brosnan smo začeli s kapucinkami.

To smo naredili tako,

So what we did is we put two Capuchin monkeys side-by-side.

da smo dve kapucinki postavili eno ob drugo.

Again, these animals, live in a group, they know each other.

Naj vas opomnim, da ti živali živita v skupini in se poznata.

Vzeli smo ju iz skupine in ju postavili v poskusno sobo.

We take them out of the group, put them in a test chamber.

Opraviti morata

And there's a very simple task that they need to do.

zelo enostavno nalogo.

And if you give both of them cucumber for the task,

Če za to nalogo daš kumarico

obema opicama, ki sta ena ob drugi,

the two monkeys side-by-side,

they're perfectly willing to do this 25 times in a row.

bosta nalogo z veseljem opravili 25-krat zaporedoma.

Torej kumarica, ki je po mojem mnenju samo voda,

So cucumber, even though it's only really water in my opinion,

but cucumber is perfectly fine for them.

je za njiju povsem v redu.

Če pa ena opica dobi grozdno jagodo --

Now if you give the partner grapes --

the food preferences of my Capuchin monkeys

naklonjenost do hrane mojih kapucink

correspond exactly with the prices in the supermarket --

ustrezajo cenam v trgovinah --

and so if you give them grapes -- it's a far better food --

če ji torej damo grozdno jagodo -- mnogo boljšo hrano --

potem med njima ustvariš neenakost.

then you create inequity between them.

So that's the experiment we did.

To je bil naš poskus.

Recently, we videotaped it with new monkeys

Nedolgo nazaj smo posneli opice, ki te naloge še niso opravljale,

who'd never done the task,

v upanju, da bo odziv nekoliko močnejši.

thinking that maybe they would have a stronger reaction,

Bila je prava odločitev.

and that turned out to be right.

Opica na levi bo dobila kumarico.

The one on the left is the monkey who gets cucumber.

Tista na desni pa bo dobila grozdno jagodo.

The one on the right is the one who gets grapes.

Tista, ki dobi kumarico --

The one who gets cucumber --

note that the first piece of cucumber is perfectly fine.

videli boste, da s prvim kosom kumarice ni povsem nič narobe.

Prvi kos bo pojedla.

The first piece she eats.

Then she sees the other one getting grape, and you will see what happens.

Bodite pozorni, kaj se zgodi, ko opazi, da druga dobi grozdno jagodo.

Prvo nam da kamen. To je naloga.

So she gives a rock to us. That's the task.

Zato ji damo kos kumarice in jo pojé.

And we give her a piece of cucumber and she eats it.

Zdaj nam mora dati kamen še druga.

The other one needs to give a rock to us.

To tudi naredi.

And that's what she does.

And she gets a grape ...

Zato dobi jagodo in jo pojé.

and eats it.

Druga opica to vidi.

The other one sees that.

Da nam kamen

She gives a rock to us now,

gets, again, cucumber.

in zopet dobi kumarico.

(Laughter)

(Smeh)

(Laughter ends)

Sedaj preveri kamen z udarcem ob zid.

She tests a rock now against the wall.

Mora nam ga dati.

She needs to give it to us.

In zopet dobi kumarico.

And she gets cucumber again.

(Laughter)

(Smeh)

V bistvu lahko tukaj vidimo protest na Wall Streetu.

So this is basically the Wall Street protest that you see here.

(Laughter)

(Smeh)

(Applause)

(Aplavz)

Naj vam povem --

I still have two minutes left --

ostali sta mi še dve minutki in bi vam povedal anekdoto o raziskavi.

let me tell you a funny story about this.

Ta raziskava je postala zelo slavna

This study became very famous and we got a lot of comments,

in smo prejeli veliko pripomb,

še posebej s strani antropologov, ekonomistov,

especially anthropologists, economists, philosophers.

filozofov.

They didn't like this at all.

Niti najmanj jim ni bil všeč.

Because they had decided in their minds, I believe,

Zdi se mi, da so se preprosto odločili,

that fairness is a very complex issue, and that animals cannot have it.

da je pravičnost zelo zapleten problem,

in je živali niso zmožne.

And so one philosopher even wrote us

Tako nam je nek filozof napisal,

that it was impossible that monkeys had a sense of fairness

da občutek za pravičnost pri opicah preprosto ni mogoč,

because fairness was invented during the French Revolution.

ker so pravičnost izumili med francosko revolucijo.

(Laughter)

(Smeh)

Nekdo drug nam je napisal celoten sestavek,

And another one wrote a whole chapter

saying that he would believe it had something to do with fairness,

da bi nam verjel, da je poskus povezan s pravičnostjo le,

if the one who got grapes would refuse the grapes.

če bi opica, ki je dobila jagodo, jagodo zavrnila.

Now the funny thing is that Sarah Brosnan, who's been doing this with chimpanzees,

Smešno pa je to, da je Sarah Brosnan,

ki je ta poskus izvajala na šimpanzih,

had a couple of combinations of chimpanzees

naletela na par kombinacij šimpanzov,

where, indeed, the one who would get the grape

pri katerih tisti, ki naj bi jagodo dobil, je ni želel pojesti

would refuse the grape until the other guy also got a grape.

dokler je ni dobil tudi drugi.

Torej smo že zelo blizu človeškemu dojemanju pravičnosti.

So we're getting very close to the human sense of fairness.

And I think philosophers need to rethink their philosophy for a while.

Mislim, da bi filozofi morali malo razmisliti o svoji filozofiji.

So let me summarize.

Naj povzamem.

I believe there's an evolved morality.

Sem mnenja, da obstaja razvita moralnost.

I think morality is much more than what I've been talking about,

Mislim, da se za moralnostjo skriva veliko več kot to, o čemer smo se pogovarjali.

Vendar to bi bilo nemogoče brez sestavin,

but it would be impossible without these ingredients

ki jih najdemo pri ostalih primatih,

that we find in other primates,

which are empathy and consolation,

to so empatija in tolažba,

pro-social tendencies and reciprocity and a sense of fairness.

nagnjenja k prosocialnosti in vzajemnost ter smisel za pravičnost.

S temi določenimi problemi se ukvarjamo,

And so we work on these particular issues

to see if we can create a morality from the bottom up, so to speak,

da lahko vidimo, če je moralnost tako rekoč možno ustvariti od začetka,

without necessarily god and religion involved,

brez potrebnega vmešavanja Boga in vere.

Želimo videti, kako lahko mi dosežemo razvito moralnost.

and to see how we can get to an evolved morality.

Hvala za vašo pozornost.

And I thank you for your attention.

(Applause)

(Aplavz)