Moral behavior in animals | Frans de Waal

Translator: Xosé María Moreno Reviewer: Natalia Outerelo

I was born in Den Bosch,

Nacín en Den Bosch

where the painter Hieronymus Bosch named himself after.

onde o pintor Hieronymus Bosch tomou o seu nome

And I've always been very fond of this painter

por iso sempre me sentín moi preto del,

que viviu e traballou no século XV.

who lived and worked in the 15th century.

And what is interesting about him in relation to morality

O interesante entre el e a moralidade

é que viviu cando a influencia da relixión minguaba

is that he lived at a time where religion's influence was waning,

e foi unha persoa que se preguntaba

and he was sort of wondering, I think,

que lle sucedería á sociedade

what would happen with society if there was no religion

se non houbese relixión ou se non a houbese.

or if there was less religion.

And so he painted this famous painting, "The Garden of Earthly Delights,"

E por iso pintou o seu famoso cadro: "o Xardín das Delicias"

que algúns interpretan

which some have interpreted as being humanity before the Fall,

como a humanidade antes da Caída,

or being humanity without any Fall at all.

ou a humanidade sen ningunha Caída.

E iso fai que nos preguntemos,

And so it makes you wonder,

what would happen if we hadn't tasted the fruit of knowledge, so to speak,

que pasaría se non probaramos a froita da sabedoría,

que tipo de moralidade teriamos?

and what kind of morality would we have.

Máis tarde, como estudante,

Much later, as a student, I went to a very different garden,

fun a un xardín moi diferente,

a zoological garden in Arnhem where we keep chimpanzees.

un xardín zoolóxico en Arnhem

onde viven chimpancés.

This is me at an early age with a baby chimpanzee.

Este son eu moi novo cun bebé chimpancé.

(Risas)

(Laughter)

E alí descubrín

And I discovered there

that the chimpanzees are very power-hungry and wrote a book about it.

que eles teñen fame de poder e escribín un libro sobre iso.

Daquela a atención na investigación animal

And at that time the focus in a lot of animal research

was on aggression and competition.

estaba na agresión e na competencia.

Retratei unha imaxe do reino animal,

I painted a whole picture of the animal kingdom

e incluín a Humanidade,

and humanity included, was that deep down we are competitors, we are aggressive,

eramos no fondo competidores,

agresivos,

we are all out for our own profit, basically.

movémonos polo noso propio beneficio.

This is the launch of my book.

Este é o inicio do meu libro.

I'm not sure how well the chimpanzees read it,

Non sei se os chimpacés o leron,

mais pareceron interesados no libro.

but they surely seemed interested in the book.

(Laughter)

Now in the process of doing all this work

Durante o proceso

todo este traballo sobre o poder

on power and dominance and aggression and so on,

a dominación, a agresión...

I discovered that chimpanzees reconcile after fights.

descubrín que os chimpancés se reconcilian despois das liortas.

O que ven aquí son dous machos que acaban de rifar.

And so what you see here is two males who have had a fight.

They ended up in a tree, and one of them holds out a hand to the other.

Rematan na copa da árbore, sostendo a man doutro.

Segundos máis tarde fixen a foto, xuntos na galla da árbore

And about a second after I took the picture,

they came together in the fork of the tree

bicándose e apertándose un a outro.

and kissed and embraced each other.

Isto é moi interesante

And this is very interesting

porque daquela todo era arredor da competencia e da agresión,

because at the time, everything was about competition and aggression,

así que non tería sentido.

so it wouldn't make any sense.

O único que importa é se gañas ou perdes.

The only thing that matters is that you win or you lose.

Por que reconciliarse despois de rifar?

But why reconcile after a fight? That doesn't make any sense.

Non ten sentido.

This is the way bonobos do it. Bonobos do everything with sex.

Esta é a forma na que os bonobos o fan. Usan o sexo para todo.

And so they also reconcile with sex.

Así que tamén para se reconciliaren.

But the principle is exactly the same.

Mais o principio é exactamente o mesmo.

The principle is that you have a valuable relationship

A máxima é que tes

unha relación valiosa

that is damaged by conflict, so you need to do something about it.

que está danada por un conflito,

así que necesitas facer algo.

So my whole picture of the animal kingdom, and including humans also,

Daquela a miña idea do reino animal,

e inclúo tamén aos humanos,

empezou a mudar naquela altura.

started to change at that time.

Ben, temos esta imaxe

So we have this image in political science, economics, the humanities,

en ciencias políticas, económicas,

humanidades e filosofía,

the philosophy for that matter, that man is a wolf to man.

que o home é un lobo para o home.

Así que o máis profundo da nosa natureza é noxenta.

And so deep down, our nature is actually nasty.

Eu creo que a imaxe é moi inxusta co lobo.

I think it's a very unfair image for the wolf.

O lobo

The wolf is, after all, a very cooperative animal.

é un animal moi cooperativo.

And that's why many of you have a dog at home,

Razón pola que teñen un can na casa,

which has all these characteristics also.

que ademais ten estas características.

E é moi inxusto coa humanidade,

And it's really unfair to humanity,

because humanity is actually much more cooperative and empathic

porque a humanidade é sen dúbida moito máis cooperativa e empática

than given credit for.

do que se cre.

So I started getting interested in those issues

Empecei a interesarme por eses temas

and studying that in other animals.

e a estudalos noutros animais.

Estes son os alicerces da moralidade.

So these are the pillars of morality.

If you ask anyone, "What is morality based on?"

Se preguntas a alguén: "en que se basa a moralidade?"

these are the two factors that always come out.

os dous factores que sempre aparecen son

One is reciprocity,

a reciprocidade,

and associated with it is a sense of justice and a sense of fairness.

asociada a ela está a noción de xustiza e o senso de equidade.

E a outra é a empatía e a compaixón.

And the other one is empathy and compassion.

E a moralidade humana é máis ca isto,

And human morality is more than this, but if you would remove these two pillars,

pero se retiran estes dous piares,

there would be not much remaining, I think.

non ficaría, creo, moito.

So they're absolutely essential.

Polo que son absolutamente esenciais.

So let me give you a few examples here.

Permítanme aportarlles dous exemplos.

This is a very old video from the Yerkes Primate Center,

Este vídeo vello do Yerkes Primate Center

onde adestraban chimpacés para cooperar.

where they trained chimpanzees to cooperate.

Aproximadamente hai uns cen anos

So this is already about a hundred years ago

that we were doing experiments on cooperation.

que estamos a facer experimentos sobre a cooperación.

What you have here is two young chimpanzees who have a box,

O que teñen aquí son dous chimpacés novos que teñen unha caixa,

a caixa é demasiado pesada para que un chimpancé turra só dela.

and the box is too heavy for one chimp to pull in.

Por suposto, dentro da caixa hai comida,

And of course, there's food on the box.

senón non turrarían tan forte.

Otherwise they wouldn't be pulling so hard.

Aquí vémolos turrando da caixa.

And so they're bringing in the box.

E poden observar que están sincronizados.

And you can see that they're synchronized.

Poden ver que traballan xuntos, turran ao mesmo tempo.

You can see that they work together, they pull at the same moment.

É un gran avance con respecto a outros animais

It's already a big advance over many other animals

incapaces de facer tal cousa.

who wouldn't be able to do that.

Now you're going to get a more interesting picture,

Agora temos unha imaxe máis interesante,

porque un dos chimpancés recibe comida.

because now one of the two chimps has been fed.

So one of the two is not really interested in the task anymore.

Aquí un dos dous xa non quere colaborar

no asunto

(Risas)

(Laughter)

(Risas)

(Laughter)

(Risas)

(Laughter)

[- and sometimes appears to convey its wishes and meanings by gestures.]

Agora ollen o que pasa ao final.

Now look at what happens at the very end of this.

(Laughter)

(Risas)

He takes basically everything.

Adónase basicamente de todo.

(Laughter)

(Risas)

There are two interesting parts about this.

Hai dúas cousas interesantes aquí.

One is that the chimp on the right

Un é que o chimpacé da dereita

has a full understanding he needs the partner --

entende que necesita un parceiro,

so a full understanding of the need for cooperation.

e entende que necesita cooperación.

O segundo ten intención de traballar

The second one is that the partner is willing to work

even though he's not interested in the food.

aínda que non está interesado na comida.

Why would that be?

Poida que teña que ver coa reciprocidade.

Well, that probably has to do with reciprocity.

Hai evidencias en primates

There's actually a lot of evidence in primates and other animals

e outros animais que devolven os favores.

that they return favors.

Conseguirá que lle devolva o favor

He will get a return favor at some point in the future.

máis adiante.

And so that's how this all operates.

Así como todo isto funciona.

Fixemos o mesmo con elefantes.

We do the same task with elephants.

É moi perigoso traballarmos con elefantes.

Now, it's very dangerous to work with elephants.

Outro problema con eles

Another problem with elephants is that you cannot make an apparatus

é que non podes facer aparatos

that is too heavy for a single elephant.

xa que son demasiado pesados.

Now you can probably make it,

Agora podes probablemente facelo,

but it's going to be a pretty clumsy apparatus, I think.

mais acho que será un trebello moi fráxil.

Así que o que fixemos nesta ocasión

And so what we did in that case --

we do these studies in Thailand for Josh Plotnik --

foi levar adiante estes estudos en Tailandia por Josh Plotnik

is we have an apparatus around which there is a rope, a single rope.

e facer un aparato circular que ten unha única corda

e se turras deste lado da corda,

And if you pull on this side of the rope, the rope disappears on the other side.

a corda desaparece doutro lado.

Dous elefantes teñen que turraren delas á vez.

So two elephants need to pick it up at exactly the same time, and pull.

Se non o fan nada sucederá

Otherwise nothing is going to happen and the rope disappears.

e a corda desaparece.

The first tape you're going to see

Na primeira gravación que van ver

is two elephants who are released together arrive at the apparatus.

hai dous elefantes que ceibamos a un tempo

e chegan até o trebello.

The apparatus is on the left, with food on it.

O aparato está á esquerda con comida.

Van xuntos, chegan xuntos.

And so they come together, they arrive together,

Recollen e turran xuntos pola corda.

they pick it up together, and they pull together.

Para eles é algo moi sinxelo.

So it's actually fairly simple for them.

Velaquí.

There they are.

E así é como o traen.

So that's how they bring it in.

Mais agora ímolo facer máis difícil.

But now we're going to make it more difficult.

Porque o propósito deste experimento

Because the purpose of this experiment

é saber o ben que entenden a cooperación.

is to see how well they understand cooperation.

Enténdena tan ben como os chimpancés, por exemplo?

Do they understand that as well as the chimps, for example?

O noso seguinte paso é

What we do in the next step is we release one elephant before the other

ceibar un elefante antes ca o outro,

and that elephant needs to be smart enough

e ese elefante necesita ser intelixente

to stay there and wait and not pull at the rope --

para ficar alí e agardar sen turrar

porque se turra, desaparece e todo o experimento remata.

because if he pulls at the rope, it disappears and the whole test is over.

Agora este elefante fai algo ilegal

Now this elephant does something illegal that we did not teach it.

que nós non lle ensinamos.

But it shows the understanding he has,

Mais explica o entendemento que ten,

porque pon a súa pata sobre a corda, fica sobre ela

because he puts his big foot on the rope,

stands on the rope and waits there for the other,

e espera até que o outro chega,

así o outro fará todo o traballo por el.

and then the other is going to do all the work for him.

So it's what we call freeloading.

Iso é que chamamos "a sopa boba".

(Laughter)

(Risas)

Isto amosa a intelixencia que teñen.

But it shows the intelligence that the elephants have.

Desenvolven varias destas técnicas alternativas

They developed several of these alternative techniques

that we did not approve of, necessarily.

que non aprobamos necesariamente.

(Laughter)

So the other elephant is now coming ...

Agora o outro elefante aparece

e disponse a turrar da corda

and is going to pull it in.

Agora olla ao outro. O outro non se esquece de comer.

Now look at the other; it doesn't forget to eat, of course.

(Risas)

(Laughter)

This was the cooperation and reciprocity part.

Esta foi a cooperación, a reciprocidade.

Agora algo sobre a empatía.

Now something on empathy.

Empathy is my main topic at the moment, of research.

A empatía é a miña especialidade-

And empathy has two qualities:

A empatía ten dúas cualidades.

One is the understanding part of it.

Unha é entender ao outro. A definición habitual é a abilidade

This is just a regular definition:

de entender e compartir os sentimentos.

the ability to understand and share the feelings of another.

E a parte emocional.

And the emotional part.

A empatía basicamente ten dúas canles.

Empathy has basically two channels: One is the body channel,

Unha é o corpo como canle.

If you talk with a sad person,

Se falas cunha persoa triste,

you're going to adopt a sad expression and a sad posture,

adoptarás unha expresión e postura triste,

and before you know it, you feel sad.

e antes de que o saibas.

And that's sort of the body channel of emotional empathy,

Esa é a canle corporal da empatía emocional

que teñen os animais.

which many animals have.

O voso can tamén a ten.

Your average dog has that also.

That's why people keep mammals in the home

Razón pola que temos mamíferos nas casas

and not turtles or snakes or something like that,

e non tartarugas ou cobras ou cousas

que non teñen esa clase de empatía.

who don't have that kind of empathy.

And then there's a cognitive channel,

E temos tamén a canle cognitiva.

which is more that you can take the perspective of somebody else.

que é máis que captar a perspectiva doutro

e iso é máis limitado.

And that's more limited.

Very few animals, I think elephants and apes, can do that kind of thing.

Hai poucos animais

quen de facelo. Os elefantes e primates poden.

A sincronización,

So synchronization,

que é unha parte do mecanismo da empatía

which is part of that whole empathy mechanism,

é moi antiga no reino animal.

is a very old one in the animal kingdom.

e en humanos podemos estudala

In humans, of course, we can study that with yawn contagion.

co bocexo contaxioso.

Humans yawn when others yawn.

Os humanos bocexamos cando outros bocexan.

And it's related to empathy.

e está relacionado coa empatía.

It activates the same areas in the brain.

Activa a mesma área do cerebro.

Also, we know that people who have a lot of yawn contagion

Sabemos que quen ten o bocexo contaxioso

é moi empáticos.

are highly empathic.

People who have problems with empathy, such as autistic children,

Por exemplo, os nenos autistas

non teñen bocexo contaxioso.

they don't have yawn contagion.

Así que hai unha conexión.

So it is connected.

And we study that in our chimpanzees by presenting them with an animated head.

E o estudamos nos chimpances poñéndoos ante unha cabeza animada.

O que se ve na esquina superior esquerda

So that's what you see on the upper-left, an animated head that yawns.

é unha cabeza animada que bocexa

e hai un chimpacé ollando,

And there's a chimpanzee watching,

an actual real chimpanzee watching a computer screen

un chimpancé de carne e óso que olla unha pantalla

on which we play these animations.

sobre o que se ven estas animacións.

(Risas)

(Laughter)

Bocexar é contaxioso

So yawn contagion that you're probably all familiar with --

algo co que estamos familiarizados.

and maybe you're going to start yawning soon now --

E se cadra vós comezan a bocexar axiña.

is something that we share with other animals.

É algo que compartimos con outros animais

And that's related to that whole body channel of synchronization

e está relacionado co canal corporal da sincronización

that underlies empathy,

que está á súa vez relacionado coa empatía

and that is universal in the mammals, basically.

e que é universal entre os mamíferos.

We also study more complex expressions -- This is consolation.

Ademais estudamos expresións máis complexas. O consolo.

This is a male chimpanzee who has lost a fight and he's screaming,

Este é un chimpacé macho que rifou e está berrando,

and a juvenile comes over and puts an arm around him

e un novo achégase e rodéao co seu brazo

e acóugao.

and calms him down.

That's consolation.

Iso é o consolo. É moi semellante ao consolo humano.

It's very similar to human consolation.

And consolation behavior --

E o comportamento do consolo

(Laughter)

está impulsado pola empatía.

it's empathy driven.

Actually, the way to study empathy in human children

Hoxe se estuda a empatía nos nenos

is to instruct a family member to act distressed,

facendo que un membro da familia

actúe angustiado e así ven que fan.

and then to see what young children do.

E iso está relacionado coa empatía,

And so it is related to empathy,

e ese é o tipo de expresión que vemos.

and that's the kind of expressions we look at.

We also recently published an experiment you may have heard about.

Hai pouco publicamos un experimento

It's on altruism and chimpanzees,

sobre o altruísmo e os chimpacés

where the question is: Do chimpanzees care about the welfare of somebody else?

e pregúntase: preocúpanse os chimpancés

sobre o benestar doutro?

And for decades it had been assumed that only humans can do that,

Durante décadas asumimos

que só o podemos facer os humanos,

that only humans worry about the welfare of somebody else.

que só os humanos nos preocupamos do benestar dos demais.

Now we did a very simple experiment.

Fixemos un experimento moi sinxelo.

Fixémolo con chimpancés que viven en Lawrenceville,

We do that on chimpanzees that live in Lawrenceville,

nunha estación de campo en Yerkes.

in the field station of Yerkes.

And so that's how they live.

E así é como viven.

And we call them into a room and do experiments with them.

Chamámolos para que entren nun cuarto e experimentamos con eles

In this case, we put two chimpanzees side-by-side,

Neste caso, poñemos un a carón doutro.

and one has a bucket full of tokens, and the tokens have different meanings.

Un ten unha bolsa con fichas, as pezas teñen diferentes sensos.

Unha das fichas alimenta só ao parceiro que escolle,

One kind of token feeds only the partner who chooses,

the other one feeds both of them.

a outro alimenta a ámbolos dous.

So this is a study we did with Vicki Horner.

Este é un estudo que fixemos con Vicky Horner.

And here, you have the two color tokens.

Aquí tedes as fichas de dúas cores.

Así que teñen unha bolsa enteira delas.

So they have a whole bucket full of them.

E teñen que escoller unha entre as dúas cores.

And they have to pick one of the two colors.

Agora veredes como funciona.

You will see how that goes.

Se este chimpancé fai a escolla egoísta,

So if this chimp makes the selfish choice,

que é neste caso a ficha vermella,

which is the red token in this case,

necesita devolvérnola.

he needs to give it to us,

we pick it up, we put it on a table where there's two food rewards,

Nós poñémola sobre a mesa onde hai dúas recompensas,

neste caso só o da dereita obtén comida.

but in this case, only the one on the right gets food.

The one on the left walks away because she knows already

A que está á dereita marcha porque xa sabe

que este non é un bo resultado para ela.

that this is not a good test for her.

Then the next one is the pro-social token.

Entón o próximo é a ficha pro-social.

Aquel que escolle, esa é a parte interesante,

So the one who makes the choices -- that's the interesting part here --

para quen escolle,

for the one who makes the choices, it doesn't really matter.

non ten neste caso importancia.

So she gives us now a pro-social token and both chimps get fed.

Así que entrega unha ficha pro-social e ambos reciben comida.

So the one who makes the choices always gets a reward.

O que escolle sempre obtén unha recompensa.

So it doesn't matter whatsoever.

polo que quen escolla non ten relevancia.

And she should actually be choosing blindly.

E ela debería entón escoller a cegas.

Mais o que nos atopamos

But what we find is that they prefer the pro-social token.

é que prefiren a ficha pro-social.

So this is the 50 percent line, that's the random expectation.

Esta é a liña cincuenta por cento que é o esperable no azar.

And especially if the partner draws attention to itself, they choose more.

Se o compañeiro atrae a atención sobre el escollen máis,

e tamén se o compañeiro lles mete presión.

And if the partner puts pressure on them --

so if the partner starts spitting water and intimidating them --

Se o compañeiro comeza a cuspir e intimidalos

then the choices go down.

entón diminúen as escollas.

(Laughter)

It's as if they're saying,

É como se dixesen,

"If you're not behaving, I'm not going to be pro-social today."

"se non te comportas non serei pro-social"

E isto é o que pasa sen compañeiro,

And this is what happens without a partner,

cando non hai un parceiro sentado aí.

when there's no partner sitting there.

Agora sabemos que os chimpacés

So we found that the chimpanzees do care about the well-being of somebody else --

se preocupan de que os demais estean ben

especially, these are other members of their own group.

especialmente, se son membros do seu mesmo grupo.

O experimento final que quero expoñer

So the final experiment that I want to mention to you

é o noso estudo sobre a equidade.

is our fairness study.

And so this became a very famous study.

Esto chegou a ser un estudo moi famoso.

And there are now many more,

Agora hai moitos máis,

because after we did this about 10 years ago,

despois de facermos isto hai dez anos,

it became very well-known.

chegou a ser moi coñecido.

And we did that originally with Capuchin monkeys.

O primeiro foi con monos capuchinos.

Vou amosarlles o noso experimento.

And I'm going to show you the first experiment that we did.

It has now been done with dogs and with birds

Foi feito con cans e paxaros

and with chimpanzees.

e con chimpacés.

But with Sarah Brosnan, we started out with Capuchin monkeys.

Mais con Sarah Brosnan empezamos con monos capuchinos.

Así que o que fixemos foi

So what we did is we put two Capuchin monkeys side-by-side.

poñer dous capuchinos cóbado con cóbado.

Again, these animals, live in a group, they know each other.

Viven en grupo e coñécense entre eles.

Tirámolos do grupo e puxémolos nunha cámara de experimentación.

We take them out of the group, put them in a test chamber.

E hai unha tarefa moi simple

And there's a very simple task that they need to do.

que necesitan facer.

And if you give both of them cucumber for the task,

Se lle dan aos dous cogombro para faceren a tarefa,

os dous monos un a carón doutro,

the two monkeys side-by-side,

they're perfectly willing to do this 25 times in a row.

son capaces de facelo 25 veces seguidas.

Así que o cogombro, que para min non é máis que auga,

So cucumber, even though it's only really water in my opinion,

but cucumber is perfectly fine for them.

para eles é algo estupendo.

Agora se lle dan uvas ao compañeiro,

Now if you give the partner grapes --

the food preferences of my Capuchin monkeys

a comida preferida dos capuchinos,

correspond exactly with the prices in the supermarket --

corresponde exactamente cos prezos no supermercado

and so if you give them grapes -- it's a far better food --

polo tanto se lle dan uvas, unha comida moito mellor

entón crean desigualdade entre eles.

then you create inequity between them.

So that's the experiment we did.

Ben este é o experimento que fixemos.

Recently, we videotaped it with new monkeys

Hai pouco gravámolo con novos monos que non fixeran esta tarefa

who'd never done the task,

pensando que reaccionarían máis forte

thinking that maybe they would have a stronger reaction,

e tiñamos razón.

and that turned out to be right.

O da esquerda é o que recibe o cogombro.

The one on the left is the monkey who gets cucumber.

O da dereita recibe uvas.

The one on the right is the one who gets grapes.

O que recibe cogombro,

The one who gets cucumber --

note that the first piece of cucumber is perfectly fine.

vexan como a primeira peza está ben.

O primeiro anaco o come.

The first piece she eats.

Then she sees the other one getting grape, and you will see what happens.

Agora o outro recibe unha uva, verán que lle sucede.

Entréganos unha pedra. Esa é a tarefa.

So she gives a rock to us. That's the task.

E nós dámoslles un anaco de cogombro e o comen.

And we give her a piece of cucumber and she eats it.

O outro debe darnos unha pedra

The other one needs to give a rock to us.

e así o fai.

And that's what she does.

And she gets a grape ...

E ela consegue unha uva e a come.

and eats it.

O outro observa.

The other one sees that.

Dános unha pedra

She gives a rock to us now,

gets, again, cucumber.

e recibe, outra vez, cogombro.

(Laughter)

(Risas)

(Laughter ends)

Proba a pedra contra a parede.

She tests a rock now against the wall.

Ten que entregárnola.

She needs to give it to us.

E recibe cogombro outra vez.

And she gets cucumber again.

(Laughter)

(Risas)

O que aquí vemos é a protesta contra Wall Street.

So this is basically the Wall Street protest that you see here.

(Laughter)

(Risas)

(Applause)

(Aplauso)

Permítanme,

I still have two minutes left --

permítanme contar unha historia graciosa.

let me tell you a funny story about this.

Este estudo chegou a ser moi famoso

This study became very famous and we got a lot of comments,

e recibimos moitos comentarios,

en concreto de antropólogos, economistas,

especially anthropologists, economists, philosophers.

filósofos.

They didn't like this at all.

Non lles gustou en absoluto.

Because they had decided in their minds, I believe,

Porque dicidiran nas súas mentes, creo,

that fairness is a very complex issue, and that animals cannot have it.

que a equidade é un asunto moi complexo

e que os animais non a teñen.

And so one philosopher even wrote us

Incluso un filósofo escribiunos

that it was impossible that monkeys had a sense of fairness

que é imposible que un mono teña a noción da equidade

because fairness was invented during the French Revolution.

porque a equidade foi inventada durante a Revolución Francesa.

(Laughter)

(Risas)

Outro escribiu un capítulo enteiro

And another one wrote a whole chapter

saying that he would believe it had something to do with fairness,

dicindo que crería que todo isto tiña algo que ver coa equidade

if the one who got grapes would refuse the grapes.

se o que obtiña as uvas renunciase a elas.

Now the funny thing is that Sarah Brosnan, who's been doing this with chimpanzees,

Agora o chiste esta en que Sarah Brosnan,

que leva fai isto mesmo con chimpancés,

had a couple of combinations of chimpanzees

tiña unha parella de combinacións deles

where, indeed, the one who would get the grape

onde, sen dúbida, aquel que recibía a uva refugábaa

would refuse the grape until the other guy also got a grape.

até que o seu compañeiro obtivese unha.

Aquí nos achegamos moito á noción humana de equidade.

So we're getting very close to the human sense of fairness.

And I think philosophers need to rethink their philosophy for a while.

Acho que os filósofos necesitan repensar a súa filosofía durante un momento.

So let me summarize.

Resumindo,

I believe there's an evolved morality.

coido que hai unha moralidade evolutiva.

I think morality is much more than what I've been talking about,

e que é moito máis do que levamos falado,

mais sería imposible sen estes ingredientes

but it would be impossible without these ingredients

que atopamos noutros primates,

that we find in other primates,

which are empathy and consolation,

que son a empatía e o consolo,

pro-social tendencies and reciprocity and a sense of fairness.

as tendencias pro-sociais, a reciprocidade

e a noción de xustiza. Traballamos para ver se podemos

And so we work on these particular issues

to see if we can create a morality from the bottom up, so to speak,

crear unha moralidade de abaixo a arriba

without necessarily god and religion involved,

sen implicar a Deus e a relixión,

e ver como podemos chegar até unha moralidade evolutiva

and to see how we can get to an evolved morality.

Grazas pola súa atención.

And I thank you for your attention.

(Applause)

(Aplausos)