Moral behavior in animals | Frans de Waal

Translator: David J. Kreps Finnemann Reviewer: Anders Finn Jørgensen

I was born in Den Bosch,

Jeg blev født i Den Bosch,

where the painter Hieronymus Bosch named himself after.

som maleren Hieronymus Bosch opkaldte sig selv efter.

And I've always been very fond of this painter

Så jeg har altid været meget glad for denne maler

der levede og arbejdede i det 15. århundrede.

who lived and worked in the 15th century.

And what is interesting about him in relation to morality

Hvad der er interessant omkring ham, i forhold til moral

er at han levede i en tid hvor den religiøse indflydelse var aftagende,

is that he lived at a time where religion's influence was waning,

og han undrede sig, tror jeg,

and he was sort of wondering, I think,

over hvad der ville ske med samfundet

what would happen with society if there was no religion

hvis der ikke var nogen religion eller hvis der var mindre af det.

or if there was less religion.

And so he painted this famous painting, "The Garden of Earthly Delights,"

Så han malede sit berømte maleri, "The Garden of Earthly Delights,"

som nogle har fortolket

which some have interpreted as being humanity before the Fall,

som værende menneskeheden før syndefaldet,

or being humanity without any Fall at all.

eller som menneskeheden uden noget syndefald overhovedet.

Så det får en til at tænke over,

And so it makes you wonder,

what would happen if we hadn't tasted the fruit of knowledge, so to speak,

hvad der ville ske, hvis vi ikke havde smagt videnskabens frugt, så at sige,

og hvilken slags moral ville vi have?

and what kind of morality would we have.

Meget senere, som studerende,

Much later, as a student, I went to a very different garden,

tog jeg til en helt anden have,

a zoological garden in Arnhem where we keep chimpanzees.

en zoologisk have i Arnhem

hvor vi har chimpanser.

This is me at an early age with a baby chimpanzee.

Det her er mig i en tidlig alder, sammen med en babychimpanse.

(Latter)

(Laughter)

Og der fandt jeg ud af,

And I discovered there

that the chimpanzees are very power-hungry and wrote a book about it.

at chimpanser er meget magtsyge, og skrev en bog om det.

På det tidspunkt var meget af dyreforskning

And at that time the focus in a lot of animal research

was on aggression and competition.

fokuseret omkring aggression og konkurrence.

Jeg gav et dybdegående billede af dyreriget,

I painted a whole picture of the animal kingdom

inklusiv af menneskeriget,

and humanity included, was that deep down we are competitors, we are aggressive,

og inderst inde er vi alle konkurrenter,

vi er aggressive,

we are all out for our own profit, basically.

vi er faktisk alle egen maksimerende.

This is the launch of my book.

Det her er udgivelsen af min bog.

I'm not sure how well the chimpanzees read it,

Jeg er ikke sikker på hvor godt chimpanserne læste den,

men de virkede bestemt interesserede i bogen.

but they surely seemed interested in the book.

(Laughter)

Now in the process of doing all this work

I processen med at

gøre alt dette arbejde med magt og dominans

on power and dominance and aggression and so on,

og aggression og så videre,

I discovered that chimpanzees reconcile after fights.

fandt jeg ud af, at chimpanser forsoner sig efter opgør.

Det vi ser her er to hanner der har haft en fejde.

And so what you see here is two males who have had a fight.

They ended up in a tree, and one of them holds out a hand to the other.

De endte oppe i et træ, og en af dem rækker hånden ud mod den anden,

og cirka et sekund efter jeg tog dette billede, nærmede de sig hinanden i træet,

And about a second after I took the picture,

they came together in the fork of the tree

og de kyssede og krammede hinanden.

and kissed and embraced each other.

Det er rigtig interessant,

And this is very interesting

da det på daværende tidspunkt handlede om konkurrence og aggression,

because at the time, everything was about competition and aggression,

så det ville ikke give nogen mening.

so it wouldn't make any sense.

Det eneste der betyder noget, er om man vinder eller taber.

The only thing that matters is that you win or you lose.

Men hvorfor ville man forsone efter en konflikt?

But why reconcile after a fight? That doesn't make any sense.

Det giver ikke nogen mening.

This is the way bonobos do it. Bonobos do everything with sex.

Det her er måden bonoboerne gør det på. Bonoboer gør alt med sex.

And so they also reconcile with sex.

Så de forsoner også med sex.

But the principle is exactly the same.

Men princippet er præcis det samme.

The principle is that you have a valuable relationship

Princippet er at man har

et værdifuldt forhold

that is damaged by conflict, so you need to do something about it.

der er skadet af konflikt,

så det skal man gøre noget ved.

So my whole picture of the animal kingdom, and including humans also,

Så hele mit billede af dyreriget,

og også af menneskeriget,

begyndte at ændre sig på det tidspunkt.

started to change at that time.

Så vi har det her billede

So we have this image in political science, economics, the humanities,

i statskundskab, økonomi, humaniora,

filosofi for den sags skyld,

the philosophy for that matter, that man is a wolf to man.

at mennesket er en ulv mod mennesket.

Så inderst inde er vores natur egentlig grim.

And so deep down, our nature is actually nasty.

Jeg synes det er et meget unfair billede overfor ulven.

I think it's a very unfair image for the wolf.

Ulven er, trods alt,

The wolf is, after all, a very cooperative animal.

et meget samarbejdsvilligt dyr.

And that's why many of you have a dog at home,

Og det er derfor der er mange af jer der har en hund derhjemme,

which has all these characteristics also.

som også har alle disse karakteristika.

Og det er egentlig unfair overfor menneskeheden,

And it's really unfair to humanity,

because humanity is actually much more cooperative and empathic

fordi menneskeheden er egentlig meget mere samarbejdsvillig og empatisk,

than given credit for.

end den får ære for.

So I started getting interested in those issues

Så jeg blev interesseret i disse emner

and studying that in other animals.

og at studere det i andre dyr.

Her er de moralske grundpiller.

So these are the pillars of morality.

If you ask anyone, "What is morality based on?"

Hvis man spørger hvem som helst "Hvad bygger moral på?",

these are the two factors that always come out.

så vil disse to faktorer altid blive nævnt.

One is reciprocity,

Den ene er gensidighed,

and associated with it is a sense of justice and a sense of fairness.

og sammen med det en følelse af retfærdighed og rimelighed.

Og den anden er empati og medfølelse.

And the other one is empathy and compassion.

Og menneskelig moral er mere end det,

And human morality is more than this, but if you would remove these two pillars,

men hvis man fjerner disse to grundpiller,

there would be not much remaining, I think.

ville der ikke være meget tilbage, tror jeg.

So they're absolutely essential.

Så de er absolut essentielle.

So let me give you a few examples here.

Lad mig give jer et par eksempler.

This is a very old video from the Yerkes Primate Center,

Det her er en meget gammel video fra Yerkes Primate Center

hvor de træner chimpanser til at samarbejde.

where they trained chimpanzees to cooperate.

Det er allerede omkring hundrede år siden,

So this is already about a hundred years ago

that we were doing experiments on cooperation.

at vi lavede eksperimenter omkring samarbejde.

What you have here is two young chimpanzees who have a box,

Her er der to unge chimpanser der har en kasse,

og kassen er for tung til at én chimpanse kan trække den hen til sig.

and the box is too heavy for one chimp to pull in.

Og selvfølgelig er der mad oven på kassen.

And of course, there's food on the box.

Ellers ville de ikke trække så ivrigt.

Otherwise they wouldn't be pulling so hard.

Så de trækker kassen hen til sig.

And so they're bringing in the box.

Og som man kan se, er de synkroniseret.

And you can see that they're synchronized.

Man kan se at de arbejder sammen, at de trækker på samme tid.

You can see that they work together, they pull at the same moment.

Det er allerede et stort spring i forhold til mange andre dyr,

It's already a big advance over many other animals

der ikke ville være i stand til at gøre det.

who wouldn't be able to do that.

Now you're going to get a more interesting picture,

Nu vil I se et mere interessant klip,

da den ene af de to chimpanser nu er blevet fodret.

because now one of the two chimps has been fed.

So one of the two is not really interested in the task anymore.

Så én af dem er egentlig ikke rigtig interesseret

i opgaven mere.

(Latter)

(Laughter)

(Latter)

(Laughter)

(Latter)

(Laughter)

[- and sometimes appears to convey its wishes and meanings by gestures.]

Prøv at se hvad der sker her til sidst.

Now look at what happens at the very end of this.

(Laughter)

(Latter)

He takes basically everything.

Han tager faktisk det hele.

(Laughter)

(Latter)

There are two interesting parts about this.

Der er to pointer omkring det her.

One is that the chimp on the right

Den ene er, at chimpansen til højre

has a full understanding he needs the partner --

har komplet forståelse for at han har brug for partneren --

so a full understanding of the need for cooperation.

så en fuld forståelse for brugen af samarbejde.

Den anden pointe er, at partneren er villig til at arbejde

The second one is that the partner is willing to work

even though he's not interested in the food.

selvom han ikke er interesseret i maden.

Why would that be?

Hvordan kan det være? Jamen det har sandsynligvis at gøre med gensidighed.

Well, that probably has to do with reciprocity.

Der er faktisk meget bevis for, at primater og andre dyr

There's actually a lot of evidence in primates and other animals

gengælder tjenester.

that they return favors.

Så han vil få en gengældt tjeneste

He will get a return favor at some point in the future.

en gang i fremtiden.

And so that's how this all operates.

Så det er hvordan det hænger sammen.

Vi laver den samme opgave med nogle elefanter.

We do the same task with elephants.

Men med elefanter, det er meget farligt at arbejde med elefanter.

Now, it's very dangerous to work with elephants.

Et andet problem med elefanter

Another problem with elephants is that you cannot make an apparatus

er at man ikke kan fremstille et apparat

that is too heavy for a single elephant.

der er for tungt til én elefant.

Now you can probably make it,

Man kan sikkert godt fremstille det,

but it's going to be a pretty clumsy apparatus, I think.

men det bliver nok et temmelig uhåndterlig apparat tror jeg.

Så det vi gjorde i det tilfælde --

And so what we did in that case --

we do these studies in Thailand for Josh Plotnik --

vi laver disse studier i Thailand for Josh Plotnik --

is we have an apparatus around which there is a rope, a single rope.

er vi har et apparat som der er et reb omkring, et enkelt reb.

Og hvis man trækker i denne side af rebet,

And if you pull on this side of the rope, the rope disappears on the other side.

så forsvinder rebet på den anden side.

Så to elefanter skal samle rebet op på præcis samme tidspunkt og trække.

So two elephants need to pick it up at exactly the same time, and pull.

Ellers sker der ikke noget

Otherwise nothing is going to happen and the rope disappears.

og rebet forsvinder.

The first tape you're going to see

I det første klip I skal se

is two elephants who are released together arrive at the apparatus.

bliver to elefanter der bliver sluppet løs samtidig

og ankommer til apparatet.

The apparatus is on the left, with food on it.

Apparatet er til venstre med mad oven på.

Så de kommer sammen, de ankommer sammen,

And so they come together, they arrive together,

de samler det op sammen, og de trækker sammen.

they pick it up together, and they pull together.

Så det er faktisk ret simpelt for dem.

So it's actually fairly simple for them.

Der er de.

There they are.

Så det er sådan de trækker den ind.

So that's how they bring it in.

Men nu gør vi det sværere.

But now we're going to make it more difficult.

Fordi hele formålet med dette eksperiment

Because the purpose of this experiment

er at finde ud af hvor godt de forstår samarbejde.

is to see how well they understand cooperation.

Forstår de det for eksempel lige så godt som chimpanserne?

Do they understand that as well as the chimps, for example?

Så det vi gør i næste trin

What we do in the next step is we release one elephant before the other

er at vi slipper den ene elefant løs før den anden,

and that elephant needs to be smart enough

og den elefant skal være smart nok

to stay there and wait and not pull at the rope --

til at stå der og vente, og ikke trække i rebet --

fordi hvis han trækker i rebet, så forsvinder det og forsøget er ovre.

because if he pulls at the rope, it disappears and the whole test is over.

Nu gør denne elefant noget der ikke er tilladt

Now this elephant does something illegal that we did not teach it.

som vi ikke lærte den.

But it shows the understanding he has,

Men det viser den forståelse han har,

fordi han planter sin store fod på rebet,

because he puts his big foot on the rope,

stands on the rope and waits there for the other,

står på rebet og venter på den anden,

og så vil den anden gøre alt arbejdet for ham.

and then the other is going to do all the work for him.

So it's what we call freeloading.

Så det er hvad vi kalder nasseri.

(Laughter)

(Latter)

Men det viser hvilken intelligens elefanter har.

But it shows the intelligence that the elephants have.

De udvikler adskillige af disse alternative teknikker

They developed several of these alternative techniques

that we did not approve of, necessarily.

som vi ikke nødvendigvis synes godt om.

(Laughter)

So the other elephant is now coming ...

Så nu kommer den anden elefant

og trækker den ind.

and is going to pull it in.

Se den anden. Den anden glemmer selvfølgelig ikke at spise.

Now look at the other; it doesn't forget to eat, of course.

(Latter)

(Laughter)

This was the cooperation and reciprocity part.

Dette var samarbejde, gensidigheds delen.

Nu noget omkring empati.

Now something on empathy.

Empathy is my main topic at the moment, of research.

Empati er mit hovedemne for tiden.

And empathy has two qualities:

Og empati har egentlig to sider.

One is the understanding part of it.

Den ene er forståelsen af det. Det her er bare en almindelig definition:

This is just a regular definition:

evnen til at forstå og dele en andens følelser.

the ability to understand and share the feelings of another.

Og den følelsesmæssige del.

And the emotional part.

Så empati har egentlig to dele.

Empathy has basically two channels: One is the body channel,

Den ene er kropsdelen.

If you talk with a sad person,

Hvis man snakker med en trist person,

you're going to adopt a sad expression and a sad posture,

så vil man tillægge sig en trist kropsholdning,

and before you know it, you feel sad.

og inden længe føler man sig trist.

And that's sort of the body channel of emotional empathy,

Og det er kropsdelen i følelsesmæssig empati,

som mange dyr har.

which many animals have.

Den gennemsnitlige hund gør det også.

Your average dog has that also.

That's why people keep mammals in the home

Det er faktisk derfor mennesker har pattedyr hjemme

and not turtles or snakes or something like that,

og ikke skildpadder eller slanger eller noget i den stil

der ikke har den slags empati.

who don't have that kind of empathy.

And then there's a cognitive channel,

Og så er der den kognitive del,

which is more that you can take the perspective of somebody else.

som betyder at man kan forstå en andens synspunkt.

Og det er mere begrænset.

And that's more limited.

Very few animals, I think elephants and apes, can do that kind of thing.

Der er få dyr -- jeg mener at elefanter og aber kan den slags --

men der er meget få dyr der kan den slags.

Så synkronisering,

So synchronization,

som er en del af hele empatimekanismen,

which is part of that whole empathy mechanism,

er meget gammelt i dyreriget.

is a very old one in the animal kingdom.

Og ved mennesker kan vi selvfølgelig studere det

In humans, of course, we can study that with yawn contagion.

via smittende gaben.

Humans yawn when others yawn.

Mennesker gaber når andre gaber.

And it's related to empathy.

Og det er relateret til empati.

It activates the same areas in the brain.

Det aktiverer de samme områder i hjernen.

Also, we know that people who have a lot of yawn contagion

Vi ved også, at mennesker der bliver smittet meget af gab,

er meget empatiske.

are highly empathic.

People who have problems with empathy, such as autistic children,

Mennesker der har problemer med empati, såsom autistiske børn,

de bliver ikke smittet af gab.

they don't have yawn contagion.

Så det er sammenhængende.

So it is connected.

And we study that in our chimpanzees by presenting them with an animated head.

Og det studerer vi ved vores chimpanser ved at vise dem et animeret hoved.

Det er hvad man kan se øverst til venstre,

So that's what you see on the upper-left, an animated head that yawns.

et animeret hoved der gaber.

Og der er en chimpanse der kigger,

And there's a chimpanzee watching,

an actual real chimpanzee watching a computer screen

en rigtig chimpanse der kigger på en computer skærm,

on which we play these animations.

der viser disse animationer.

(Latter)

(Laughter)

Så smittende gaben

So yawn contagion that you're probably all familiar with --

som I sikkert allesammen er bekendt med --

and maybe you're going to start yawning soon now --

og måske begynder I snart at gabe --

is something that we share with other animals.

er noget vi deler med andre dyr.

And that's related to that whole body channel of synchronization

Og det er forbundet med hele kropsdelen af synkronisering

that underlies empathy,

der hører under empati,

and that is universal in the mammals, basically.

og det er dybest set universelt hos pattedyr.

We also study more complex expressions -- This is consolation.

We studerer også mere komplekse udtryk. Det her er trøst.

This is a male chimpanzee who has lost a fight and he's screaming,

Det her er en han chimpanse der har tabt en dyst og han skriger.

and a juvenile comes over and puts an arm around him

og en ung kommer og lægger en arm om ham,

og trøster ham.

and calms him down.

That's consolation.

Det er trøst. Det er meget lig menneskelig trøst.

It's very similar to human consolation.

And consolation behavior --

Og trøsteadfærd

(Laughter)

er drevet af empati.

it's empathy driven.

Actually, the way to study empathy in human children

Faktisk er måden at studere empati hos menneske børn

is to instruct a family member to act distressed,

at instruere et familiemedlem i at handle fortvivlet,

og så ser man hvad barnet gør.

and then to see what young children do.

Så det er relateret til empati,

And so it is related to empathy,

og det er den slags udtryk vi kigger på.

and that's the kind of expressions we look at.

We also recently published an experiment you may have heard about.

Vi offentliggjorde for nylig et eksperiment I måske har hørt om.

It's on altruism and chimpanzees,

Det omhandler altruisme og chimpanser

where the question is: Do chimpanzees care about the welfare of somebody else?

hvor spørgsmålet er, om chimpanser bekymrer sig

om andres velfærd.

And for decades it had been assumed that only humans can do that,

Og i årtier er det blevet antaget

at det kun er mennesker der kan det,

that only humans worry about the welfare of somebody else.

at det kun er mennesker der bekymrer sig om andres velfærd.

Now we did a very simple experiment.

Vi gennemførte et meget simpelt eksperiment.

Vi udførte det på chimpanser der bor i Lawrenceville,

We do that on chimpanzees that live in Lawrenceville,

i en feltstation til Yerkes.

in the field station of Yerkes.

And so that's how they live.

Så det er sådan de bor.

And we call them into a room and do experiments with them.

Og vi kalder dem ind i et rum og laver nogle forsøg med dem.

In this case, we put two chimpanzees side-by-side,

I denne case sætter vi to chimpanser ved siden af hinanden.

and one has a bucket full of tokens, and the tokens have different meanings.

Én af dem har en kasse med poletter, og poletterne har forskellig betydning.

Én slags polet giver kun mad til den der vælger,

One kind of token feeds only the partner who chooses,

the other one feeds both of them.

den anden giver mad til begge.

So this is a study we did with Vicki Horner.

Det her er et studie vi gennemførte med Vicky Horner.

And here, you have the two color tokens.

Og her er de to farver poletter.

Så de har en hel spand fuld af dem.

So they have a whole bucket full of them.

Og de skal vælge én af de to farver.

And they have to pick one of the two colors.

I kan se hvordan det foregår.

You will see how that goes.

Så hvis denne chimpanse tager det selviske valg,

So if this chimp makes the selfish choice,

der i dette tilfælde er den røde polet,

which is the red token in this case,

skal han give den til os.

he needs to give it to us,

we pick it up, we put it on a table where there's two food rewards,

Så vi samler den op, vi sætter den på bordet hvor der er to madbelønninger,

men i dette tilfælde er det kun den til højre der får mad.

but in this case, only the one on the right gets food.

The one on the left walks away because she knows already

Den til venstre går væk, fordi hun ved det allerede,

at det her ikke er en god test for hende.

that this is not a good test for her.

Then the next one is the pro-social token.

Den næste er den prosociale polet.

Så den der træffer valgene - det er det interessante her --

So the one who makes the choices -- that's the interesting part here --

for den der træffer valgene,

for the one who makes the choices, it doesn't really matter.

gør det ikke nogen forskel.

So she gives us now a pro-social token and both chimps get fed.

Så hun giver os en prosocial polet og begge chimpanser får mad.

So the one who makes the choices always gets a reward.

Så den der træffer valget får altid en belønning.

So it doesn't matter whatsoever.

Så det gør ikke nogen forskel overhovedet.

And she should actually be choosing blindly.

Så hun skulle egentlig vælge i blinde.

Men det vi ser

But what we find is that they prefer the pro-social token.

er at de foretrækker den prosociale polet.

So this is the 50 percent line, that's the random expectation.

Det her er 50 procent linjen der er den forventningen om det tilfældige.

And especially if the partner draws attention to itself, they choose more.

Og især hvis partneren tiltrækker sig opmærksomhed, vælger de mere.

Og hvis partneren presser dem --

And if the partner puts pressure on them --

so if the partner starts spitting water and intimidating them --

så hvis partneren begynder at spytte vand og true dem --

then the choices go down.

så går valget ned.

(Laughter)

It's as if they're saying,

Det er som om de siger

"If you're not behaving, I'm not going to be pro-social today."

"Hvis du ikke opfører dig ordentligt, så vil jeg ikke være prosocial i dag."

Og det her er hvad der sker uden en partner,

And this is what happens without a partner,

når der ikke sidder en partner.

when there's no partner sitting there.

Så vi fandt at chimpanserne bekymrer sig

So we found that the chimpanzees do care about the well-being of somebody else --

om andres velbefindende --

especially, these are other members of their own group.

især, de her er andre medlemmer af deres egen gruppe.

Det sidste eksperiment som jeg vil nævne for jer,

So the final experiment that I want to mention to you

er vores studie i retfærdighed.

is our fairness study.

And so this became a very famous study.

Og det her blev et meget berømt forsøg.

And there are now many more,

Og nu er der mange flere,

because after we did this about 10 years ago,

da vi efter at have gjort det her for 10 år siden,

it became very well-known.

blev det meget kendt.

And we did that originally with Capuchin monkeys.

Og vi gjorde det oprindeligt med kapucineraber.

Så nu viser jeg jer det første eksperiment vi lavede.

And I'm going to show you the first experiment that we did.

It has now been done with dogs and with birds

Det er også blevet lavet med hunde og fugle

and with chimpanzees.

og med chimpanser.

But with Sarah Brosnan, we started out with Capuchin monkeys.

Men sammen med Sarah Brosnan startede vi med kapucineraber.

Så det vi gjorde

So what we did is we put two Capuchin monkeys side-by-side.

var, at vi satte to kapucineraber ved siden af hinanden.

Again, these animals, live in a group, they know each other.

Igen, de her dyr, de lever i en gruppe, de kender hinanden.

Vi tager dem ud af gruppen, sætter dem i et test rum.

We take them out of the group, put them in a test chamber.

Og der er en meget simpel opgave

And there's a very simple task that they need to do.

som de skal lave.

And if you give both of them cucumber for the task,

Og hvis man giver dem begge agurk til opgaven,

de to aber ved siden af hinanden,

the two monkeys side-by-side,

they're perfectly willing to do this 25 times in a row.

er de begge helt villige til at gøre det 25 gange i træk.

Så agurk, selvom det efter min mening bare er vand,

So cucumber, even though it's only really water in my opinion,

but cucumber is perfectly fine for them.

men agurk er helt fint for dem.

Så hvis man giver partneren vindruer --

Now if you give the partner grapes --

the food preferences of my Capuchin monkeys

madpræferencerne hos mine kapucineraber

correspond exactly with the prices in the supermarket --

svarer præcis til priserne i supermarkedet --

and so if you give them grapes -- it's a far better food --

så hvis man giver dem vindruer -- en klart bedre føde --

så skaber man en ulighed mellem dem.

then you create inequity between them.

So that's the experiment we did.

Så det er det eksperiment vi lavede.

Recently, we videotaped it with new monkeys

Vi filmede det for nyligt med nye aber der ikke havde lavet opgaven før,

who'd never done the task,

da vi tænkte at de måske ville vise en stærkere reaktion,

thinking that maybe they would have a stronger reaction,

og det viste sig at være rigtigt.

and that turned out to be right.

Den til venstre er aben der får agurk.

The one on the left is the monkey who gets cucumber.

Den til højre er aben der får vindruer.

The one on the right is the one who gets grapes.

Den der får agurk,

The one who gets cucumber --

note that the first piece of cucumber is perfectly fine.

læg mærke til at det første stykke agurk er helt fin.

Det første stykke spiser hun.

The first piece she eats.

Then she sees the other one getting grape, and you will see what happens.

Så ser hun at den anden får vindruer, og så ser I hvad der sker.

Så hun giver os stenen. Det er opgaven.

So she gives a rock to us. That's the task.

Og vi giver hende et stykke agurk og hun spiser det.

And we give her a piece of cucumber and she eats it.

Den anden skal give os en sten.

The other one needs to give a rock to us.

Og det er hvad hun gør.

And that's what she does.

And she gets a grape ...

Og hun får en vindrue og spiser den.

and eats it.

Det ser den anden.

The other one sees that.

Hun giver os stenen nu,

She gives a rock to us now,

gets, again, cucumber.

får, igen, agurk.

(Laughter)

(Latter)

(Laughter ends)

Hun tester en sten mod væggen.

She tests a rock now against the wall.

Hun skal give den til os.

She needs to give it to us.

Og hun får agurk igen.

And she gets cucumber again.

(Laughter)

(Latter)

Så det her er i bund og grund "Wall Street protest" I ser her.

So this is basically the Wall Street protest that you see here.

(Laughter)

(Latter)

(Applause)

(Bifald)

Lad mig fortælle jer --

I still have two minutes left --

Jeg har stadig to minuter til overs, lad mig fortælle jer en sjov histore omkring dette.

let me tell you a funny story about this.

Dette forsøg blev meget berømt

This study became very famous and we got a lot of comments,

og vi fik en masse kommentarer,

især fra antropologer, økonomer,

especially anthropologists, economists, philosophers.

filosoffer.

They didn't like this at all.

De kunne ikke lide det overhovedet.

Because they had decided in their minds, I believe,

Fordi de havde bestemt sig for, tror jeg,

that fairness is a very complex issue, and that animals cannot have it.

at retfærdighed er et meget kompleks emne

og at dyr ikke kan have det.

And so one philosopher even wrote us

Og en filosof skrev endda til os

that it was impossible that monkeys had a sense of fairness

at det var umuligt at aber skulle have en retfærdighedssans

because fairness was invented during the French Revolution.

fordi retfærdighed blev opfundet under den Franske Revolution.

(Laughter)

(Latter)

En anden skrev et helt kapitel

And another one wrote a whole chapter

saying that he would believe it had something to do with fairness,

at han ville tro på det havde noget med retfærdighed at gøre

if the one who got grapes would refuse the grapes.

hvis den der fik vindruer, ville afvise vindruerne.

Now the funny thing is that Sarah Brosnan, who's been doing this with chimpanzees,

Det sjove er, at Sarah Brosnan,

der har gjort det med chimpanser,

had a couple of combinations of chimpanzees

havde et par kombinationer af chimpanser

where, indeed, the one who would get the grape

hvor, minsandten, den ene der ville få vindruer ville afvise vindruerne

would refuse the grape until the other guy also got a grape.

indtil den anden også fik vindruer.

Så vi er tæt på den menneskelige følelse af retfærdighed.

So we're getting very close to the human sense of fairness.

And I think philosophers need to rethink their philosophy for a while.

Og jeg synes filosoffer skal genoverveje deres filosofi.

So let me summarize.

Så lad mig opsummere.

I believe there's an evolved morality.

Jeg tror på, at der er en udviklet moral.

I think morality is much more than what I've been talking about,

Jeg synes moral er meget mere end det jeg har snakket om,

men det ville være umuligt uden disse ingredienser

but it would be impossible without these ingredients

som vi finder i andre primater,

that we find in other primates,

which are empathy and consolation,

som er empati og trøst,

pro-social tendencies and reciprocity and a sense of fairness.

sociale tendenser og gensidighed og en retfærdighedssans.

Så vi arbejder på disse specifikke emner

And so we work on these particular issues

to see if we can create a morality from the bottom up, so to speak,

for at se om vi kan skabe en moral fra bunden og op, så at sige,

without necessarily god and religion involved,

uden at Gud og religion nødvendigvis er involveret,

og se hvordan vi kan finde frem til en udviklet moral.

and to see how we can get to an evolved morality.

Og jeg takker Jer for jeres opmærksomhed.

And I thank you for your attention.

(Applause)

(Bifald)