Moral behavior in animals | Frans de Waal

1,930,516 views ・ 2012-04-10

TED


μ•„λž˜ μ˜λ¬Έμžλ§‰μ„ λ”λΈ”ν΄λ¦­ν•˜μ‹œλ©΄ μ˜μƒμ΄ μž¬μƒλ©λ‹ˆλ‹€.

λ²ˆμ—­: Young-ho Park κ²€ν† : Sang Hyun Park
00:15
I was born in Den Bosch,
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μ €λŠ” λ„€λœλž€λ“œμ˜ ν™”κ°€ νžˆμ—λ‘œλ‹ˆλ¬΄μŠ€ 보쉬가
00:17
where the painter Hieronymus Bosch named himself after.
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μžμ‹ μ˜ 이름을 λ”°μ„œ 이름뢙인 덴 λ³΄μ‰¬λΌλŠ” κ³³μ—μ„œ νƒœμ–΄λ‚¬μŠ΅λ‹ˆλ‹€.
00:20
And I've always been very fond of this painter
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μ €λŠ” 15세기에 ν™œμ•½ν–ˆλ˜
κ·Έ ν™”κ°€λ₯Ό 맀우 μ’‹μ•„ν•©λ‹ˆλ‹€.
00:23
who lived and worked in the 15th century.
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00:25
And what is interesting about him in relation to morality
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μ œκ°€ 도덕성과 연관지어 κ·Έμ—κ²Œ ν₯λ―Έλ₯Ό κ°€μ§€λŠ” μ΄μœ λŠ”
μ’…κ΅μ˜ 힘이 μ‡ μ•½ν•΄μ§€λ˜ μ‹œκΈ°μ— μ‚΄μ•˜λ˜ κ·ΈλŠ”
00:28
is that he lived at a time where religion's influence was waning,
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쒅ꡐ가 μ—†μ–΄μ§€κ±°λ‚˜ κ·Έ 영ν–₯λ ₯이 약해진닀면
00:31
and he was sort of wondering, I think,
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μ‚¬νšŒκ°€ μ–΄λ–»κ²Œ 될것인가λ₯Ό
00:33
what would happen with society if there was no religion
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μƒμƒν–ˆμ„ κ²ƒμ΄λΌλŠ” 생각이 λ“€μ—ˆκΈ° λ•Œλ¬Έμ΄μ£ .
00:36
or if there was less religion.
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00:37
And so he painted this famous painting, "The Garden of Earthly Delights,"
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κ·Έκ°€ κ·Έλ¦° 유λͺ…ν•œ κ·Έλ¦Ό '쾌락의 정원'을 λ³΄μ„Έμš”.
μ–΄λ–€ μ‚¬λžŒλ“€μ€ 이 그림을 ν•΄μ„ν•˜κΈ°λ₯Ό
00:41
which some have interpreted as being humanity before the Fall,
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νƒ€λ½ν•˜κΈ° μ „ 인λ₯˜μ˜ λͺ¨μŠ΅μœΌλ‘œ 보기도 ν•˜κ³ 
00:44
or being humanity without any Fall at all.
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ν˜Ήμ€ νƒ€λ½μ΄λž€κ²ƒμ΄ μ—†λŠ” μ„Έμƒμ˜ 인λ₯˜λΌκ³ λ„ ν•΄μ„ν•˜μ£ .
κ·Έλž˜μ„œ μ €λŠ”
00:48
And so it makes you wonder,
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00:49
what would happen if we hadn't tasted the fruit of knowledge, so to speak,
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λ§Œμ•½ 인λ₯˜κ°€ μ†Œμœ„λ§ν•˜λŠ” 'μ„ μ•…κ³Ό'λ₯Ό 맛보지 μ•Šμ•˜λ‹€λ©΄
μ–΄λ–€ 도덕성을 κ°–κ²Œ λ˜μ—ˆμ„κΉŒ 생각해 λ΄€μ£ .
00:53
and what kind of morality would we have.
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ν•œμ°Έ ν›„, μ €λŠ” ν•™μ°½μ‹œμ ˆλ•Œ
00:56
Much later, as a student, I went to a very different garden,
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μ•ˆν—΄μ— μœ„μΉ˜ν•œ κ·Έ κ·Έλ¦Όκ³ΌλŠ” μ „ν˜€ λ‹€λ₯Έ 정원인
00:59
a zoological garden in Arnhem where we keep chimpanzees.
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ν•œ 동물원에 κ°”μ—ˆλŠ”λ°
κ±°κΈ°μ—” μΉ¨νŒμ§€λ“€μ΄ 있죠.
01:04
This is me at an early age with a baby chimpanzee.
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이건 μ œκ°€ ν•™μƒμ‹œμ ˆμ— μ•„κΈ°μΉ¨νŒμ§€λž‘ 찍은 μ‚¬μ§„μž…λ‹ˆλ‹€.
(μ›ƒμŒ)
01:07
(Laughter)
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κ·Έ κ³³μ—μ„œ μ €λŠ” μΉ¨νŒμ§€λ“€μ΄ ꢌλ ₯에
01:10
And I discovered there
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01:11
that the chimpanzees are very power-hungry and wrote a book about it.
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κ΅Άμ£Όλ € μžˆλ‹€λŠ”κ²ƒμ„ λ°œκ²¬ν•˜κ³  그것에 λŒ€ν•œ 책을 썼죠.
κ·Έ λ‹Ήμ‹œμ˜ λŒ€λΆ€λΆ„μ˜ 동물 연ꡬ듀은 κ·Έλ“€μ˜
01:15
And at that time the focus in a lot of animal research
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01:17
was on aggression and competition.
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ν˜Έμ „μ μ΄κ³  경쟁적인 면에 μΉ˜μ€‘λ˜μ–΄ μžˆμ—ˆμ£ .
κ·Έ λ‹Ήμ‹œ 저도 인간을 ν¬ν•¨ν•œ λ™λ¬Όμ˜ 세계λ₯Ό
01:20
I painted a whole picture of the animal kingdom
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근본적으둜 경쟁적이고
01:22
and humanity included, was that deep down we are competitors, we are aggressive,
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ν˜Έμ „μ μ΄λ©°
λͺ¨λ‘ μžμ‹ μ˜ μ΄μ΅λ§Œμ„ μœ„ν•΄ μ‘΄μž¬ν•œλ‹€λŠ”
01:27
we are all out for our own profit, basically.
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인상을 μ£ΌλŠ” 책을 썼죠.
01:30
This is the launch of my book.
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이건 μΉ¨νŒμ§€λ“€μ΄ 좜판된 제 책을 λ³΄λŠ” κ΄‘κ²½μž…λ‹ˆλ‹€.
01:32
I'm not sure how well the chimpanzees read it,
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μΉ¨νŒμ§€λ“€μ΄ κ·Έ 책을 μ–Όλ§ˆλ‚˜ 잘 μ½μ—ˆλŠ”μ§€λŠ”
λͺ¨λ₯΄μ§€λ§Œ κ½€ ν₯λ―Έμžˆμ–΄ ν•˜λŠ” 것 κ°™μ•„μš”.
01:35
but they surely seemed interested in the book.
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01:37
(Laughter)
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01:39
Now in the process of doing all this work
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그런데 μ €λŠ” μΉ¨νŒμ§€λ“€μ˜ ꢌλ ₯λ‹€νˆΌ,
패ꢌμž₯μ•…, ν˜Έμ „μ μΈ 성격 등을
01:42
on power and dominance and aggression and so on,
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μ—°κ΅¬ν•˜λŠ” κ³Όμ •μ—μ„œ
01:45
I discovered that chimpanzees reconcile after fights.
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μΉ¨νŒμ§€λ“€μ€ μ‹Έμš΄ 후에 ν™”ν•΄λ₯Ό ν•œλ‹€λŠ” 것을 μ•Œμ•˜μ–΄μš”.
이건 수컷 μΉ¨νŒμ§€λ“€μ΄ μ‹Έμš΄ 후에 ν™”ν•΄ν•˜λŠ” λͺ¨μŠ΅μž…λ‹ˆλ‹€.
01:49
And so what you see here is two males who have had a fight.
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01:51
They ended up in a tree, and one of them holds out a hand to the other.
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μ‹Έμš°λ‹€λ³΄λ‹ˆ λ‚˜λ¬΄μ— μ˜¬λΌκ°€κ²Œ λ˜μ—ˆλŠ”λ° ν•œ μΉ¨νŒμ§€κ°€ λ‹€λ₯Έ λ…€μ…•μ—κ²Œ 손을 λ‚΄λ°€κ³  있죠.
이 사진을 찍자마자 곧 그듀은 λ‚˜λ¬΄ 가지가 λ»—μ–΄λ‚˜κ°€λŠ”
01:55
And about a second after I took the picture,
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01:57
they came together in the fork of the tree
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λ°‘λ‘₯μͺ½μœΌλ‘œ λ‚΄λ €κ°€μ„œ 뽀뽀와 ν¬μ˜Ήμ„ ν–ˆμŠ΅λ‹ˆλ‹€.
01:59
and kissed and embraced each other.
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그런데 κ·Έ λ‹Ήμ‹œ μš°λ¦¬λŠ” μΉ¨νŒμ§€ μ‚¬νšŒκ°€
02:01
And this is very interesting
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경쟁적이고 ν˜Έμ „μ μΈ 면이 전뢀라고 μ—¬κ²ΌκΈ°λ•Œλ¬Έμ—
02:02
because at the time, everything was about competition and aggression,
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그런 행동은 맀우 ν₯λ―Έλ‘œμ™”μ£ .
02:05
so it wouldn't make any sense.
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동물 μ„Έκ³„μ—λŠ” 승리 μ•„λ‹ˆλ©΄ 패배 밖에 μ—†λ‹€κ³  μƒκ°ν–ˆμœΌλ‹ˆκΉŒμš”.
02:07
The only thing that matters is that you win or you lose.
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그런데 μ™œ μ‹Έμš΄ 후에 ν™”ν•΄λ₯Ό ν•˜λŠ”κ±ΈκΉŒμš”?
02:09
But why reconcile after a fight? That doesn't make any sense.
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μ™œ κ·ΈλŸ¬λŠ”μ§€ μ°Έ μ΄ν•΄ν•˜κΈ° νž˜λ“€μ—ˆμ£ .
02:12
This is the way bonobos do it. Bonobos do everything with sex.
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이제 λ³΄μ—¬λ“œλ¦΄ 것은 보노보식이죠. λ³΄λ…Έλ³΄λŠ” λͺ¨λ“  것을
02:15
And so they also reconcile with sex.
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μ„ΉμŠ€λ‘œ ν•΄κ²°ν•΄μš”. κ·ΈλŸ¬λ‹ˆκΉŒ ν™”ν•΄ν•  λ•Œλ„ μ„ΉμŠ€μ£ .
02:17
But the principle is exactly the same.
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κ·Έλ ‡μ§€λ§Œ κΈ°λ³Έ 원칙은 λͺ¨λ‘ κ°™μ•„μš”.
02:19
The principle is that you have a valuable relationship
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κ·Έ κΈ°λ³Έ μ›μΉ™μ΄λž€ 것은 κ·Έλ“€κ°„μ˜
κ·€μ€‘ν•œ 관계가 μ‹Έμ›€μœΌλ‘œ 인해 손상을 λ°›μ•˜μœΌλ‹ˆκΉŒ
02:23
that is damaged by conflict, so you need to do something about it.
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그것을 μΉ˜μœ ν•˜κΈ°μœ„ν•΄
무엇인가λ₯Ό ν•΄μ•Όν•œλ‹€λŠ” κ±°μ£ .
02:27
So my whole picture of the animal kingdom, and including humans also,
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인간을 ν¬ν•¨ν•œ 동물 세계에 λŒ€ν•œ
μ €μ˜ 생각, 전체적인 그림은
κ·Έ λ•ŒλΆ€ν„° λ°”λ€ŒκΈ° μ‹œμž‘ν–ˆμ–΄μš”.
02:32
started to change at that time.
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μš°λ¦¬λŠ” μ •μΉ˜ν•™, κ²½μ œν•™, 인문학
02:34
So we have this image in political science, economics, the humanities,
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그리고 μ‹¬μ§€μ–΄λŠ” μ² ν•™μ—μ„œλ„
ν•œ μ‚¬λžŒμ€ λ‹€λ₯Έ μ‚¬λžŒμ—κ²Œ λŠ‘λŒ€κ°™μ€ μ‘΄μž¬λΌλŠ”
02:38
the philosophy for that matter, that man is a wolf to man.
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이미지λ₯Ό 가지고 μžˆμ—ˆκ³ , μžμ—°μ΄λž€ 것은
근본적으둜 λͺ»λœ κ²ƒμ΄λΌλŠ” 생각을 가지고 μžˆμ—ˆμ£ .
02:42
And so deep down, our nature is actually nasty.
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그런 생각은 λŠ‘λŒ€μ— κ΄€ν•œ 맀우 λΆˆκ³΅ν‰ν•œ 인상을 κ°–κ²Œ ν•œλ‹€κ³  μƒκ°ν•΄μš”.
02:45
I think it's a very unfair image for the wolf.
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μ™œλƒν•˜λ©΄, λŠ‘λŒ€λŠ” 맀우
02:48
The wolf is, after all, a very cooperative animal.
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ν˜‘λ™μ μΈ λ™λ¬Όμ΄λ‹ˆκΉŒμš”.
02:51
And that's why many of you have a dog at home,
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μš°λ¦¬κ°€ μ§‘μ—μ„œ 개λ₯Ό ν‚€μš°λŠ” μ΄μœ λ„
02:53
which has all these characteristics also.
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κ°œλ“€μ΄ 이런 νŠΉμ„±μ„ 가지고 있기 λ•Œλ¬Έμ΄μ£ .
이것은 사싀 우리 μΈκ°„μ—κ²Œλ„ λΆˆκ³΅ν‰ν•œ 말인데
02:56
And it's really unfair to humanity,
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02:57
because humanity is actually much more cooperative and empathic
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κ·Έ μ΄μœ λŠ” 인간은 μš°λ¦¬κ°€ μƒκ°ν•˜λŠ” 것보닀 더 ν˜‘λ™μ μ΄κ³ 
03:01
than given credit for.
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λ‹€λ₯Έ μ‚¬λžŒμ˜ 감정에 κ³΅κ°ν•˜κΈ° λ•Œλ¬Έμ΄μ£ .
03:03
So I started getting interested in those issues
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κ·Έλž˜μ„œ μ €λŠ” 이런 μ΄μŠˆμ— ν₯λ―Έλ₯Ό 가지고
03:05
and studying that in other animals.
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λ‹€λ₯Έ λ™λ¬Όμ—μ„œλ„ 이런 면에 λŒ€ν•œ 연ꡬλ₯Ό ν•˜κΈ° μ‹œμž‘ν–ˆμ£ .
μ΄λŸ¬ν•œ 행동은 λ„λ•μ„±μ˜ 근본을 μ΄λ£¨λŠ” 것듀이죠.
03:08
So these are the pillars of morality.
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03:09
If you ask anyone, "What is morality based on?"
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λˆ„κ΅¬μ—κ²Œλ‚˜ "λ„λ•μ„±μ˜ 바탕은 무엇이냐?"κ³ 
03:13
these are the two factors that always come out.
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λ¬Όμ–΄ 보면 항상 두 가지 닡이 λ‚˜μ˜€μ£ .
03:15
One is reciprocity,
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κ·Έ 쀑 ν•˜λ‚˜λŠ” μ •μ˜μ™€ ν‰λ“±μ˜μ‹κ³Ό
03:17
and associated with it is a sense of justice and a sense of fairness.
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κ΄€λ ¨λ˜λŠ” 호혜주의이고
λ‹€λ₯Έ ν•˜λ‚˜λŠ” κ°μ •μ΄μž…κ³Ό 동정심이죠.
03:21
And the other one is empathy and compassion.
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μΈκ°„μ˜ λ„λ•μ„±μ—λŠ” λ‹€λ₯Έ μš”μ†Œλ“€λ„
03:23
And human morality is more than this, but if you would remove these two pillars,
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μž‘μš©ν•˜μ§€λ§Œ 이 λ‘κ°œμ˜ λŒ€λ“€λ³΄λ₯Ό λΉΌλ©΄
03:27
there would be not much remaining, I think.
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λ³„λ‘œ λ‚¨λŠ”κ²Œ μ—†λ‹€κ³  μ €λŠ” μƒκ°ν•©λ‹ˆλ‹€.
03:29
So they're absolutely essential.
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κ·Έλž˜μ„œ 이 λ‘κ°€μ§€λŠ” μ ˆλŒ€μ μœΌλ‘œ ν•„μš”ν•˜μ£ .
03:31
So let me give you a few examples here.
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이걸 증λͺ…ν•˜λŠ” λͺ‡κ°€μ§€ 예λ₯Ό λ³΄μ—¬λ“œλ¦¬μ£ .
03:33
This is a very old video from the Yerkes Primate Center,
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이건 μΉ¨νŒμ§€λ“€μ΄ ν˜‘λ™ν•˜λ„λ‘ ν›ˆλ ¨μ‹œν‚€λŠ”
μ—¬ν‚€μŠ€ 영μž₯λ₯˜ μ„Όν„°μ—μ„œ 찍은 였래된 λΉ„λ””μ˜€μ£ .
03:36
where they trained chimpanzees to cooperate.
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κ·ΈλŸ¬λ‹ˆκΉŒ 이미 거의 100λ…„ 전에 μ‚¬λžŒλ“€μ€
03:39
So this is already about a hundred years ago
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03:41
that we were doing experiments on cooperation.
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λ™λ¬Όμ˜ ν˜‘λ™μ— λŒ€ν•œ μ‹€ν—˜μ„ ν•˜κ³  μžˆμ—ˆμ£ .
03:44
What you have here is two young chimpanzees who have a box,
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μ–΄λ¦° μΉ¨νŒμ§€ 두 λ§ˆλ¦¬λŠ” μƒμžλ₯Ό λŒμ–΄ 당겨야 ν•˜λŠ”λ°
μΉ¨νŒμ§€ ν•œ λ§ˆλ¦¬κ°€ λ‹ΉκΈ°κΈ°μ—λŠ” μƒμžκ°€ λ„ˆλ¬΄ 무겁죠.
03:48
and the box is too heavy for one chimp to pull in.
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λ¬Όλ‘  μƒμž μœ„μ—λŠ” 먹이가 μžˆμ–΄μš”.
03:51
And of course, there's food on the box.
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먹이가 μ—†μœΌλ©΄ μ• μ¨μ„œ λŒμ–΄ 당기지 μ•Šκ² μ£ .
03:53
Otherwise they wouldn't be pulling so hard.
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μ—¬λŸ¬λΆ„μ€ 그듀이 λ™μ‹œμ— 쀄을 λ‹Ήκ²¨μ„œ
03:55
And so they're bringing in the box.
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μƒμžλ₯Ό λŒμ–΄ λ“€μ΄λŠ” 것을 λ³Ό 수 있죠.
03:57
And you can see that they're synchronized.
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그듀은 λ™μ‹œμ— 쀄을 λ‹ΉκΈ°λ©΄μ„œ 같이 μΌν•˜κ³  있죠.
03:59
You can see that they work together, they pull at the same moment.
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이처럼 ν˜‘λ ₯ν•  수 μžˆλ‹€λŠ” 것은 ν˜‘λ ₯을 λͺ»ν•˜λŠ”
04:02
It's already a big advance over many other animals
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λ‹€λ₯Έ 동물에 λΉ„ν•˜λ©΄ 크게 λ°œμ „ν•œ μƒνƒœμ£ .
04:05
who wouldn't be able to do that.
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04:06
Now you're going to get a more interesting picture,
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자 이제 두 마리 쀑 ν•œ μΉ¨νŒμ§€κ°€ 이미
λ°° λΆ€λ₯Έ μƒνƒœκ°€ λ˜λ‹ˆ 더 ν₯미둜운 상황이 λ©λ‹ˆλ‹€.
04:09
because now one of the two chimps has been fed.
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04:11
So one of the two is not really interested in the task anymore.
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κ·ΈλŸ¬λ‹ˆκΉŒ λ°°κ°€ λΆ€λ₯Έ μΉ¨νŒμ§€λŠ”
쀄을 λ‹ΉκΈ°λŠ”λ° 관심이 λ³„λ‘œ μ—†μ£ .
(μ›ƒμŒ)
04:17
(Laughter)
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(μ›ƒμŒ)
04:24
(Laughter)
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(μ›ƒμŒ)
04:35
(Laughter)
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04:38
[- and sometimes appears to convey its wishes and meanings by gestures.]
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자 이제 맨 λ§ˆμ§€λ§‰μ— μ–΄λ–»κ²Œ λ˜λŠ”μ§€ λ³΄μ„Έμš”.
04:51
Now look at what happens at the very end of this.
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04:56
(Laughter)
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(μ›ƒμŒ)
05:07
He takes basically everything.
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녀석이 거의 λ‹€ λ¨Ήμ£ .
05:09
(Laughter)
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(μ›ƒμŒ)
05:12
There are two interesting parts about this.
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여기에 두 가지 ν₯미둜운 점이 μžˆλŠ”λ°
05:14
One is that the chimp on the right
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μ²«λ²ˆμ§ΈλŠ” 였λ₯Έμͺ½μ— μžˆλŠ” μΉ¨νŒμ§€λŠ”
05:16
has a full understanding he needs the partner --
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νŒŒνŠΈλ„ˆκ°€ ν•„μš”ν•˜λ‹€λŠ” 것을 잘 μ•Œκ³  있고
05:18
so a full understanding of the need for cooperation.
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즉, ν˜‘λ™μ΄ ν•„μš”ν•˜λ‹€λŠ” 것을 잘 μ΄ν•΄ν•˜κ³  있죠.
λ‘λ²ˆμ§Έλ‘œ ν₯λ―ΈμžˆλŠ” 점은 그의 νŒŒνŠΈλ„ˆλŠ”
05:21
The second one is that the partner is willing to work
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05:23
even though he's not interested in the food.
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먹이에 관심이 μ—†λŠ”λ°λ„ 일을 ν•΄μ€€λ‹€λŠ” κ±°μ£ .
05:25
Why would that be?
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μ™œκ·ΈλŸ΄κΉŒμš”? μ–΄μ©Œλ©΄ ν˜Έν˜œμ„±κ³Ό 무슨 관련이 μžˆμ„μ§€ λͺ¨λ₯΄μ£ .
05:27
Well, that probably has to do with reciprocity.
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영μž₯λ₯˜μ™€ μ—¬λŸ¬ 동물듀은 남이 λ² ν‘Ό ν˜Έμ˜μ— λŒ€ν•΄
05:29
There's actually a lot of evidence in primates and other animals
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보닡을 ν•œλ‹€λŠ” λ§Žμ€ 증거가 있죠.
05:32
that they return favors.
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κ·ΈλŸ¬λ‹ˆκΉŒ μ™Όμͺ½ μΉ¨νŒμ§€λŠ”
05:33
He will get a return favor at some point in the future.
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μ–Έμ  κ°€ κ·Έ 보닡을 λ°›κ²Œ 되겠죠.
05:36
And so that's how this all operates.
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λͺ¨λ“ κ²Œ λ‹€ 이런 μ‹μœΌλ‘œ λŒμ•„κ°€λŠ” κ±°μ£ .
μš°λ¦¬λŠ” μ½”λΌλ¦¬μ—κ²Œλ„ λ˜‘κ°™μ€ 일을 μ‹œμΌ°μ£ .
05:39
We do the same task with elephants.
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그런데 코끼리와 같이 μΌν•˜λŠ” 것은 맀우 μœ„ν—˜ν•œ 일이죠.
05:41
Now, it's very dangerous to work with elephants.
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또 λ‹€λ₯Έ λ¬Έμ œλŠ” 코끼리 ν•œλ§ˆλ¦¬κ°€
05:44
Another problem with elephants is that you cannot make an apparatus
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λŒκΈ°μ— λ„ˆλ¬΄ 무거운 μ‹€ν—˜κΈ°κ΅¬λ₯Ό
05:47
that is too heavy for a single elephant.
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λ§Œλ“ λ‹€λŠ” 것이 λΆˆκ°€λŠ₯ν•˜λ‹€λŠ” 점이죠.
05:49
Now you can probably make it,
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사싀 λ§Œλ“€μˆ˜μ•Ό μžˆκ² μ§€λ§Œ μ•„λ§ˆλ„
05:51
but it's going to be a pretty clumsy apparatus, I think.
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μΆ©λΆ„νžˆ νŠΌνŠΌν•˜κ²Œ λ§Œλ“€κΈ°λŠ” νž˜λ“€κ² μ£ .
이건 μš°λ¦¬κ°€ νƒœκ΅­μ—μ„œ
05:54
And so what we did in that case --
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05:55
we do these studies in Thailand for Josh Plotnik --
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쑰쉬 ν”„λ‘œνŠΈλ‹‰μ„ μœ„ν•΄ 연ꡬλ₯Ό ν• λ•Œ
05:58
is we have an apparatus around which there is a rope, a single rope.
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μ‚¬μš©ν•˜λŠ” μ‹€ν—˜κΈ°κ΅¬μΈλ° 밧쀄 ν•˜λ‚˜λ₯Ό
기ꡬ에 κ±Έμ–΄μ„œ ν•œμͺ½μ—μ„œλ§Œ 밧쀄을
06:02
And if you pull on this side of the rope, the rope disappears on the other side.
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λ‹ΉκΈ°λ©΄ 쀄이 빠지도둝 λ§Œλ“€μ—ˆμ£ .
κ·Έλž˜μ„œ 코끼리 두 λ§ˆλ¦¬κ°€ 밧쀄을 λ™μ‹œμ— μž‘μ•„ 당겨야 ν•˜μ£ .
06:06
So two elephants need to pick it up at exactly the same time, and pull.
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κ·Έλ ‡κ²Œ ν•˜μ§€ μ•ŠμœΌλ©΄ μŒμ‹μ΄ 놓인 μƒμžκ°€
06:09
Otherwise nothing is going to happen and the rope disappears.
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움직이지 μ•Šκ³  λ°§μ€„λ§Œ 빠져버리죠.
06:12
The first tape you're going to see
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첫번째 λΉ„λ””μ˜€μ—λŠ” 코끼리 두 마리λ₯Ό
06:14
is two elephants who are released together arrive at the apparatus.
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λ™μ‹œμ— ν’€μ–΄μ€˜μ„œ μ‹€ν—˜μž₯치 μ•žμ—
λ™μ‹œμ— λ„λ‹¬ν•˜κ²Œ ν•œκ±°μ£ .
06:18
The apparatus is on the left, with food on it.
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사진 μ™Όμͺ½μ— μ‹€ν—˜μž₯μΉ˜κ°€ 있고 κ·Έμœ„μ— μŒμ‹μ΄ 있죠.
코끼리듀은 같이 였고, μž₯치 μ•žμ— 같이 λ„λ‹¬ν•΄μ„œ
06:22
And so they come together, they arrive together,
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λ™μ‹œμ— 밧쀄을 작고, 같이 λ‹ΉκΈ°μ£ .
06:25
they pick it up together, and they pull together.
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이건 사싀 그듀에겐 κ°„λ‹¨ν•œ 일이죠.
06:27
So it's actually fairly simple for them.
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자 이제 코끼리듀이 μ˜΅λ‹ˆλ‹€.
06:31
There they are.
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녀석듀은 μ΄λ ‡κ²Œ μƒμžλ₯Ό λŒμ–΄ 듀이죠.
06:40
So that's how they bring it in.
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이제 일을 μ’€ 더 μ–΄λ ΅κ²Œ λ§Œλ“€μ£ .
06:42
But now we're going to make it more difficult.
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이 μ‹€ν—˜μ˜ λͺ©μ μ€ 이듀이 ν˜‘λ™μ΄λΌλŠ” κ°œλ…μ„
06:44
Because the purpose of this experiment
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μ–Όλ§ˆλ‚˜ 잘 μ΄ν•΄ν•˜λŠ”κ°€λ₯Ό μ•ŒκΈ° μœ„ν•œ κ²ƒμ΄λ‹ˆκΉŒμš”.
06:46
is to see how well they understand cooperation.
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코끼리가 μΉ¨νŒμ§€λ³΄λ‹€ 'ν˜‘λ™'을 더 잘 μ΄ν•΄ν• κΉŒμš”?
06:48
Do they understand that as well as the chimps, for example?
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κ·Έλž˜μ„œ κ·Έ λ‹€μŒ λ‹¨κ³„λŠ” 코끼리 ν•œλ§ˆλ¦¬λ₯Ό
06:51
What we do in the next step is we release one elephant before the other
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λ¨Όμ € 보내고 κ·Έ 코끼리가 μ‹€ν—˜μž₯치 μ•žμ—
06:54
and that elephant needs to be smart enough
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도달 ν•œ 후에 λ‹€λ₯Έ 코끼리가 올 λ•ŒκΉŒμ§€
06:56
to stay there and wait and not pull at the rope --
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밧쀄을 당기지 μ•Šκ³  κΈ°λ‹€λ¦¬λŠ”μ§€ λ³΄λŠ”κ±°μ£ .
μ™œλƒν•˜λ©΄ κΈ°λ‹€λ¦¬μ§€μ•Šκ³  밧쀄을 λ‹ΉκΈ°λ©΄ 밧쀄이 빠지고 μ‹€ν—˜μ΄ λλ‚˜λ‹ˆκΉŒμš”.
06:59
because if he pulls at the rope, it disappears and the whole test is over.
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그런데 이 μ½”λΌλ¦¬λŠ” μš°λ¦¬κ°€ κ°€λ₯΄μ³μ£Όμ§€
07:02
Now this elephant does something illegal that we did not teach it.
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μ•Šμ€ κΎ€λ₯Ό 뢀리고 μžˆμ–΄μš”.
07:05
But it shows the understanding he has,
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녀석은 밧쀄을 발둜 밟고
λ‹€λ₯Έ 코끼리가 μ˜¬λ•ŒκΉŒμ§€
07:08
because he puts his big foot on the rope,
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07:10
stands on the rope and waits there for the other,
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κΈ°λ‹€λ¦¬λŠ”κ±°μ£ . κ·Έλž˜μ„œ λ‹€λ₯Έ 코끼리가
밧쀄 λ‹ΉκΈ°λŠ” 일을 혼자 λ‹€ ν•˜κ²Œ λ§Œλ“œλŠ”κ±°μ£ .
07:13
and then the other is going to do all the work for him.
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07:15
So it's what we call freeloading.
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μ—ΌμΉ˜μ—†μ΄ 일도 μ•ˆν•˜κ³  꽁짜둜 λ°₯을 μ–»μ–΄ λ¨ΉλŠ”κ±°μ£ .
07:18
(Laughter)
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(μ›ƒμŒ)
κ·ΈλŸ¬λ‚˜ 이건 κ·Έ 코끼리가 μ–Όλ§ˆλ‚˜ λ˜‘λ˜‘ν•œμ§€λ₯Ό λ³΄μ—¬μ€λ‹ˆλ‹€.
07:21
But it shows the intelligence that the elephants have.
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코끼리듀은 κ·Έ 외에도 이런 μ‹μ˜
07:24
They developed several of these alternative techniques
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07:26
that we did not approve of, necessarily.
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μ–Œμ²΄κ°™μ€ 방법듀을 ꡬ상해 λƒˆμ£ .
07:28
(Laughter)
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07:29
So the other elephant is now coming ...
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자 이제 λ‘λ²ˆμ§Έ 코끼리가 μ™€μ„œ
밧쀄을 λ‹ΉκΈ°μ§€μš”.
07:35
and is going to pull it in.
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밧쀄을 밟고만 있던 코끼리도 λ¨ΉλŠ”λ°λŠ” 빠지지 μ•Šμ•˜μ£ .
07:54
Now look at the other; it doesn't forget to eat, of course.
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(μ›ƒμŒ)
07:57
(Laughter)
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08:00
This was the cooperation and reciprocity part.
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이건 호혜적인 관계λ₯Ό μœ„ν•œ ν˜‘λ™μ΄μ£ .
이제 κ°μ •μ΄μž…μ— λŒ€ν•΄ λ§μ”€λ“œλ¦¬μ£ .
08:03
Now something on empathy.
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08:04
Empathy is my main topic at the moment, of research.
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μš”μ¦˜ 제 μ—°κ΅¬μ˜ 주된 μ£Όμ œλŠ” κ°μ •μ΄μž…μ΄μ£ .
08:06
And empathy has two qualities:
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κ°μ •μ΄μž…μ—λŠ” 두가지 면이 μžˆλ‹€κ³  말할 수 μžˆλŠ”λ°
08:08
One is the understanding part of it.
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κ·Έ 쀑 ν•˜λ‚˜λŠ” μƒλŒ€λ°©μ˜ 감정을 μ΄ν•΄ν•˜κ³  κ³΅κ°ν•˜λŠ”
08:10
This is just a regular definition:
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λŠ₯λ ₯μœΌλ‘œμ„œμ˜ 이해λ₯Ό μ˜λ―Έν•˜λŠ” 일반적 μ •μ˜μ΄κ³ ,
08:12
the ability to understand and share the feelings of another.
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λ‹€λ₯Έ ν•˜λ‚˜λŠ” 감정적인 뢀뢄이죠.
08:14
And the emotional part.
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즉, κ°μ •μ΄μž…μ— λ„λ‹¬ν•˜λŠ”λ°λŠ” 두 가지 κ²½λ‘œκ°€ 있죠.
08:16
Empathy has basically two channels: One is the body channel,
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ν•˜λ‚˜λŠ” 윑체적인 경둜죠.
08:19
If you talk with a sad person,
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예λ₯Όλ“€λ©΄, μŠ¬ν”ˆ μ‚¬λžŒκ³Ό 이야기λ₯Ό ν•˜λ©΄
08:21
you're going to adopt a sad expression and a sad posture,
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μ—¬λŸ¬λΆ„λ„ μŠ¬ν”ˆ ν‘œμ •κ³Ό μžμ„Έλ₯Ό κ°€μ§€κ²Œ 되고
08:24
and before you know it, you feel sad.
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μžμ‹ λ„ λͺ¨λ₯΄κ²Œ μŠ¬ν”„κ²Œ 느끼죠.
08:26
And that's sort of the body channel of emotional empathy,
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이와 같은 윑체적인 κ°μ •μ΄μž…μ€
λ§Žμ€ 동물듀이 λŠλΌλŠ” 것이죠.
08:30
which many animals have.
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μ—¬λŸ¬λΆ„μ˜ 집에 μžˆλŠ” κ°œλ„ 그런 κ±Έ 느끼죠.
08:32
Your average dog has that also.
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08:33
That's why people keep mammals in the home
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λ§Žμ€ μ‚¬λžŒμ΄ κ±°λΆμ΄λ‚˜ λ±€ 같은
08:35
and not turtles or snakes or something like that,
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κ°μ •μ΄μž…μ΄ μ—†λŠ” 동물이 μ•„λ‹ˆκ³  포유λ₯˜
애완동물을 μ„ ν˜Έν•˜λŠ” μ΄μœ κ°€ λ°”λ‘œ 이것 λ•Œλ¬Έμ΄μ£ .
08:38
who don't have that kind of empathy.
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08:39
And then there's a cognitive channel,
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κ°μ •μ΄μž…μœΌλ‘œ ν†΅ν•˜λŠ” λ‹€λ₯Έ κ²½λ‘œλŠ” 인지적 경둜인데
08:41
which is more that you can take the perspective of somebody else.
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그것은 λ‹€λ₯Έ μ‚¬λžŒμ˜ μž…μž₯μ—μ„œ 세상을 λ³΄λŠ”κ±°μ£ .
κ·ΈλŸ¬λ‚˜ μ €λŠ” μ½”λΌλ¦¬λ‚˜ μœ μΈμ›λ“€μ„
08:44
And that's more limited.
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08:45
Very few animals, I think elephants and apes, can do that kind of thing.
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μ œμ™Έν•˜κ³ λŠ” 그런 생각을 ν•  수 μžˆλŠ” 동물은
극히 λ“œλ¬Όλ‹€κ³  μƒκ°ν•©λ‹ˆλ‹€.
동물 μ„Έκ³„μ—μ„œλŠ” λ¨Ό μ˜›λ‚  λΆ€ν„°
08:51
So synchronization,
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κ°μ •μ΄μž… 전체 과정쀑 일뢀인 κ°μ •μΌμΉ˜κ°€
08:53
which is part of that whole empathy mechanism,
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였래된 λ°©λ²•μœΌλ‘œ μ‚¬μš©λ˜μ–΄ μ™”μ£ .
08:55
is a very old one in the animal kingdom.
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μ‚¬λžŒλ“€μ˜ κ°μ •μ΄μž…μ— λŒ€ν•œ 연ꡬλ₯Ό ν• λ•ŒλŠ” λ¬Όλ‘ 
08:57
In humans, of course, we can study that with yawn contagion.
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ν•˜ν’ˆ 전염성을 연ꡬ할 수 있죠.
09:00
Humans yawn when others yawn.
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ν•œμ‚¬λžŒμ΄ ν•˜ν’ˆμ„ ν•˜λ©΄ λͺ¨λ‘ λ”°λΌμ„œ ν•˜ν’ˆμ„ ν•˜μ£ .
09:02
And it's related to empathy.
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μ΄λŸ¬ν•œ κ°μ •μ΄μž…μ€ 우리 λ‘λ‡Œμ˜
09:04
It activates the same areas in the brain.
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같은 뢀뢄을 ν™œμ„±ν™”μ‹œν‚΅λ‹ˆλ‹€.
09:06
Also, we know that people who have a lot of yawn contagion
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그리고 μš°λ¦¬λŠ” ν•˜ν’ˆμ„ 잘 λ”°λΌμ„œ ν•˜λŠ” μ‚¬λžŒλ“€μ€
κ°μ •μ΄μž…μ„ 맀우 μž˜ν•œλ‹€λŠ” 사싀을 μ•Œκ³  있죠.
09:09
are highly empathic.
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09:10
People who have problems with empathy, such as autistic children,
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μžνμ•„μ™€ 같이 κ°μ •μ΄μž…μ„ λͺ»ν•˜λŠ”
μ‚¬λžŒλ“€μ€ 남을 따라 ν•˜ν’ˆμ„ ν•˜μ§€ μ•Šμ£ .
09:13
they don't have yawn contagion.
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μš°λ¦¬λŠ” λͺ¨λ‘ μ΄λ ‡κ²Œ 연결돼 있죠.
09:15
So it is connected.
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09:16
And we study that in our chimpanzees by presenting them with an animated head.
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μš°λ¦¬λŠ” λ§Œν™” μ˜μƒμ„ μ‚¬μš©ν•΄μ„œ μΉ¨νŒμ§€μ˜ κ°μ •μ΄μž…μ„ μ—°κ΅¬ν•˜μ£ .
ν™”λ©΄μ˜ μ™Όμͺ½ μœ„μ— λ³΄μ΄λŠ”
09:20
So that's what you see on the upper-left, an animated head that yawns.
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λ§Œν™” μ˜μƒ 속 μΉ¨νŒμ§€κ°€
ν•˜ν’ˆν•˜λŠ” 것을
09:24
And there's a chimpanzee watching,
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09:25
an actual real chimpanzee watching a computer screen
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μ‹€ν—˜ λŒ€μƒμΈ μΉ¨νŒμ§€κ°€
09:28
on which we play these animations.
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컴퓨터 ν™”λ©΄μ—μ„œ 보고 있죠.
(μ›ƒμŒ)
09:36
(Laughter)
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μ—¬λŸ¬λΆ„μ΄ 잘 μ•„μ‹œλŠ” ν•˜ν’ˆ 전염은
09:38
So yawn contagion that you're probably all familiar with --
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-- μ—¬λŸ¬λΆ„μ΄ 곧 ν•˜ν’ˆμ„ ν•˜μ‹€μ§€ λͺ¨λ₯΄κ² λ„€μš” --
09:41
and maybe you're going to start yawning soon now --
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μš°λ¦¬μ™€ λ‹€λ₯Έ 동물듀이 λͺ¨λ‘
09:44
is something that we share with other animals.
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κ³΅ν†΅μ μœΌλ‘œ ν•˜λŠ” ν–‰μœ„μ§€μš”.
09:47
And that's related to that whole body channel of synchronization
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그런데 그건 κ°μ •μ΄μž…μ˜ 바탕이 λ˜λŠ”
09:50
that underlies empathy,
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λͺΈ 전체λ₯Ό λ™κΈ°ν™”ν•˜λŠ” 것과 κ΄€λ ¨λ˜λŠ”λ°
09:52
and that is universal in the mammals, basically.
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그것은 근본적으둜 λͺ¨λ“  ν¬μœ λ™λ¬Όμ—κ²Œ κ³΅ν†΅λœ 것이죠.
09:55
We also study more complex expressions -- This is consolation.
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μš°λ¦¬λŠ” 더 λ³΅μž‘ν•œ ν‘œν˜„μΈ μœ„λ‘œμ— λŒ€ν•΄μ„œλ„ μ—°κ΅¬ν•©λ‹ˆλ‹€.
09:58
This is a male chimpanzee who has lost a fight and he's screaming,
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이것은 숫컷 μΉ¨νŒμ§€μΈλ° 싸움에 진 ν›„ λΉ„λͺ…을
10:01
and a juvenile comes over and puts an arm around him
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지λ₯΄λ‹ˆκΉŒ μ–΄λ¦° μΉ¨νŒμ§€κ°€ λ‹€κ°€μ™€μ„œ νŒ”λ‘œ 감싸고
μ§„μ •μ‹œν‚€λŠ” μž₯λ©΄μž…λ‹ˆλ‹€.
10:04
and calms him down.
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10:05
That's consolation.
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이건 μ‚¬λžŒμ΄ λ‹€λ₯Έ μ‚¬λžŒμ„ μœ„λ‘œν•˜λŠ” 것과 맀우 λΉ„μŠ·ν•˜μ£ .
10:06
It's very similar to human consolation.
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10:08
And consolation behavior --
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μœ„λ‘œλŠ” κ°μ •μ΄μž…μ— μ˜ν•΄
10:10
(Laughter)
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ν–‰ν•΄μ§€λŠ” 행동이죠.
10:12
it's empathy driven.
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10:13
Actually, the way to study empathy in human children
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μ•„μ΄λ“€μ˜ κ°μ •μ΄μž…μ„ μ—°κ΅¬ν•˜λŠ” 방법은
10:16
is to instruct a family member to act distressed,
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그의 κ°€μ‘± ν•œ λͺ…μ—κ²Œ κ΄΄λ‘œμ›Œν•˜λŠ” μ²™ ν•˜λΌκ³  μ‹œν‚¨ ν›„
κ·Έ 아이가 μ–΄λ–€ 행동을 ν•˜λŠ”μ§€ κ΄€μ°°ν•˜λŠ”κ±°μ£ .
10:19
and then to see what young children do.
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이것 λ˜ν•œ κ°μ •μ΄μž…μ— κ΄€λ ¨λ˜λŠ” 것인데
10:21
And so it is related to empathy,
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μš°λ¦¬κ°€ μ—°κ΅¬ν•˜λŠ” ν‘œμ •μ΄ κ·ΈλŸ°κ²ƒμ΄μ£ .
10:23
and that's the kind of expressions we look at.
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10:25
We also recently published an experiment you may have heard about.
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저희듀은 졜근 μΉ¨νŒμ§€μ— λŒ€ν•œ ν•œ μ‹€ν—˜ κ²°κ³Όλ₯Ό λ°œν‘œν–ˆμ–΄μš”.
10:28
It's on altruism and chimpanzees,
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μ–΄μ©Œλ©΄ 듀어보셨을지도 λͺ¨λ₯΄μ§€λ§Œ
10:30
where the question is: Do chimpanzees care about the welfare of somebody else?
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μΉ¨νŒμ§€λ“€μ΄ λ‹€λ₯Έ λ™λ¬Όμ˜ 볡지에 λŒ€ν•œ
애타심을 가지고 μžˆλƒλŠ” κ²ƒμ΄μ˜€μ£ .
10:35
And for decades it had been assumed that only humans can do that,
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μ§€λ‚œ μˆ˜μ‹­λ…„ λ™μ•ˆ μš°λ¦¬λŠ” μΈκ°„λ§Œμ΄
λ‹€λ₯Έ μ΄λ“€μ˜ 볡지λ₯Ό κ±±μ •ν•˜λŠ” 애타심을
10:39
that only humans worry about the welfare of somebody else.
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가지고 μžˆλ‹€κ³  μƒκ°ν–ˆμ—ˆμ£ .
10:42
Now we did a very simple experiment.
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κ·Έλž˜μ„œ μš°λ¦¬λŠ” κ°„λ‹¨ν•œ μ‹€ν—˜μ„ ν–ˆμ–΄μš”.
μš°λ¦¬λŠ” 둜렌슀빌의 μ—¬ν¬μŠ€ ν˜„μž₯μ—°κ΅¬μ†Œμ— μžˆλŠ”
10:45
We do that on chimpanzees that live in Lawrenceville,
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μΉ¨νŒμ§€λ“€μ„ μƒλŒ€λ‘œ μ‹€ν—˜μ„ ν–ˆμ£ .
10:48
in the field station of Yerkes.
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10:49
And so that's how they live.
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녀석듀은 κ·Έκ³³μ—μ„œ μ΄λ ‡κ²Œ μ‚΄μ•„μš”.
10:51
And we call them into a room and do experiments with them.
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μš°λ¦¬λŠ” 이 μΉ¨νŒμ§€λ“€μ„ μ‹€ν—˜μ‹€λ‘œ 데리고 μ™€μ„œ μ‹€ν—˜μ„ ν–ˆμ£ .
10:54
In this case, we put two chimpanzees side-by-side,
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μ—¬κΈ°μ„œ μš°λ¦¬λŠ” μΉ¨νŒμ§€ λ‘˜μ„ μ˜†μ— λ‚˜λž€νžˆ μ•‰κ²Œ ν•©λ‹ˆλ‹€.
10:56
and one has a bucket full of tokens, and the tokens have different meanings.
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ν•œ μΉ¨νŒμ§€λŠ” 토큰이 μž”λœ© λ“€μ–΄μžˆλŠ” 톡을 가지고 μžˆλŠ”λ°
ν•œ μ’…λ₯˜μ˜ 토큰을 μ„ νƒν•˜λ©΄ 자기만 μŒμ‹μ„ 먹게 되고
11:00
One kind of token feeds only the partner who chooses,
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11:02
the other one feeds both of them.
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λ‹€λ₯Έ 토큰을 μ„ νƒν•˜λ©΄ λ‘˜ λ‹€ μŒμ‹μ„ 먹게 되죠.
11:04
So this is a study we did with Vicki Horner.
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μš°λ¦¬λŠ” 이 μ‹€ν—˜μ„ λΉ…ν‚€ ν˜Έλ„ˆμ™€ 같이 ν–ˆμ–΄μš”.
11:08
And here, you have the two color tokens.
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이 μ‹€ν—˜μ—μ„œ μš°λ¦¬λŠ” 두 가지 μƒ‰κΉ”μ˜ 토큰을 μ‚¬μš©ν–ˆμ£ .
그듀이 가진 ν†΅μ—λŠ” 토큰이 가득 λ“€μ–΄ μžˆλŠ”λ°
11:11
So they have a whole bucket full of them.
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κ·Έ 쀑 ν•œ 색깔을 선택해야 ν–ˆμ£ .
11:13
And they have to pick one of the two colors.
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μΉ¨νŒμ§€λ“€μ΄ μ–΄λ–»κ²Œ ν•˜λ‚˜ λ΄…μ‹œλ‹€.
11:16
You will see how that goes.
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이 μΉ¨νŒμ§€κ°€ 이기적인 선택을 ν•˜λ©΄,
11:19
So if this chimp makes the selfish choice,
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즉, λΉ¨κ°„ 토큰을 μ„ νƒν•˜λ©΄
11:22
which is the red token in this case,
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κ·Έκ±Έ μš°λ¦¬μ—κ²Œ μ£Όμ£ . 그럼 μš°λ¦¬λŠ” κ·Έ 토큰을 λ°›μ•„μ„œ
11:25
he needs to give it to us,
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11:26
we pick it up, we put it on a table where there's two food rewards,
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먹을것 두 κ°œκ°€ λ†“μ—¬μžˆλŠ” ν…Œμ΄λΈ” μœ„μ— λ†“λŠ”λ°
이건 λΉ¨κ°„ ν† ν°μ΄λ‹ˆκΉŒ 였λ₯Έμͺ½ μΉ¨νŒμ§€λ§Œ μŒμ‹μ„ λ°›μ£ .
11:30
but in this case, only the one on the right gets food.
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11:32
The one on the left walks away because she knows already
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μ™Όμͺ½μ— μžˆλŠ” μΉ¨νŒμ§€λŠ” μŒμ‹μ„ λͺ» λ¨Ήμ„κ²ƒμ΄λΌλŠ” 것을
미리 μ•Œκ³  λ”΄ 곳으둜 가버리죠.
11:35
that this is not a good test for her.
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11:37
Then the next one is the pro-social token.
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λ‹€μŒ μ‹€ν—˜μ€ μΉœμ‚¬νšŒμ  토큰에 κ΄€ν•œ 것이죠.
μ—¬κΈ°μ„œ ν₯λ―ΈμžˆλŠ” 점은 토큰을 μ„ νƒν•˜λŠ”
11:40
So the one who makes the choices -- that's the interesting part here --
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μΉ¨νŒμ§€μ—κ²ŒλŠ” μ–΄λ–€ 토큰을 μ„ νƒν•˜λ“ μ§€
11:43
for the one who makes the choices, it doesn't really matter.
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μ•„λ¬΄λŸ° 차이가 μ—†λ‹€λŠ” 것이죠. μ΄λ²ˆμ—λŠ”
11:46
So she gives us now a pro-social token and both chimps get fed.
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이 μΉ¨νŒμ§€κ°€ μΉœμ‚¬νšŒμ  토큰을 κ³¨λžκΈ°λ•Œλ¬Έμ— λ‘˜ λ‹€ μŒμ‹μ„ λ¨Ήμ£ .
11:49
So the one who makes the choices always gets a reward.
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토큰을 μ„ νƒν•˜λŠ” μΉ¨νŒμ§€λŠ” μ–΄λ–€ 토큰을 μ„ νƒν•˜κ±΄
11:52
So it doesn't matter whatsoever.
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μŒμ‹μ„ λ¨ΉμœΌλ‹ˆκΉŒ μ•„λ¬΄λ ‡κ²Œλ‚˜
11:53
And she should actually be choosing blindly.
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λˆˆμ„ 감고 선택해도 λ˜κ² μ§€λ§Œ
저희듀은 그듀이 μΉœμ‚¬νšŒμ  토큰을 μ„ νƒν•˜λŠ” κ±Έ
11:57
But what we find is that they prefer the pro-social token.
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더 μ’‹μ•„ν•œλ‹€λŠ” 것을 λ°œκ²¬ν–ˆμ–΄μš”.
12:00
So this is the 50 percent line, that's the random expectation.
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이건 λ¬΄μž‘μœ„ 선택을 ν•  경우 κΈ°λŒ€ν•˜λŠ” 50%μ„  이죠.
12:03
And especially if the partner draws attention to itself, they choose more.
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νŒŒνŠΈλ„ˆκ°€ 자기의 주의λ₯Ό 끌면 μΉœμ‚¬νšŒμ  토큰을
더 자주 μ„ νƒν•˜λŠ” ν•œνŽΈ, 물을 μž…μœΌλ‘œ λΏœλŠ”λ‹€λŠ”μ§€
12:07
And if the partner puts pressure on them --
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12:09
so if the partner starts spitting water and intimidating them --
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μœ„ν˜‘μ„ ν•΄μ„œ 짜증이 λ‚˜κ²Œ κ΅΄λ©΄ μΉœμ‚¬νšŒμ  토큰을
12:12
then the choices go down.
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μ„ νƒν•˜λŠ” λΉˆλ„κ°€ λ‚΄λ €κ°€μ£ .
12:14
(Laughter)
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12:15
It's as if they're saying,
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그건 마치 "λ‹ˆκ°€ 였늘 κ·Έλ”°μœ„λ‘œ 놀면
12:17
"If you're not behaving, I'm not going to be pro-social today."
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λ‚˜λ„ μΉœμ‚¬νšŒμ μœΌλ‘œ μ•ˆλ†€λž˜"라고 λ§ν•˜λŠ”κ²ƒκ³Ό κ°™μ£ .
그리고 이건 νŒŒνŠΈλ„ˆκ°€
12:20
And this is what happens without a partner,
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μ˜†μ— 앉아 μžˆμ§€ μ•Šμ„ 경우죠.
12:22
when there's no partner sitting there.
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κ·Έλž˜μ„œ μš°λ¦¬λŠ” μΉ¨νŒμ§€λ“€λ„ λ‹€λ₯Έ μΉ¨νŒμ§€μ˜
12:24
So we found that the chimpanzees do care about the well-being of somebody else --
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웰빙을 μ‹ κ²½μ“΄λ‹€λŠ” 것을 μ•Œμ•˜λŠ”λ°
12:27
especially, these are other members of their own group.
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μ‹€ν—˜νŒŒνŠΈλ„ˆκ°€ 그의 그룹원이면 λ”μš± κ·Έλ ‡μ£ .
μ œκ°€ λ§ˆμ§€λ§‰μœΌλ‘œ λ§μ”€λ“œλ¦¬κ³  싢은것은
12:31
So the final experiment that I want to mention to you
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곡정성에 κ΄€ν•œ 우리의 연ꡬ κ²°κ³Όμ£ .
12:34
is our fairness study.
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12:35
And so this became a very famous study.
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이 μ‹€ν—˜μ€ μ΄μ œλŠ” μ•„μ£Ό 유λͺ…ν•œ μ‹€ν—˜μ΄ λ˜μ—ˆλŠ”λ°
12:38
And there are now many more,
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μš°λ¦¬κ°€ μ•½ 10λ…„ 전에 이 μ‹€ν—˜μ„ μˆ˜ν–‰ν•˜κ³  λ‚œ ν›„
12:40
because after we did this about 10 years ago,
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이 μ‹€ν—˜μ΄ μ•„μ£Ό 유λͺ…ν•΄μ‘ŒκΈ° λ•Œλ¬Έμ—
12:42
it became very well-known.
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μ§€κΈˆμ€ λ‹€λ₯Έ μ‹€ν—˜ 결과듀도 많이 λ‚˜μ™€ 있죠.
12:44
And we did that originally with Capuchin monkeys.
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μš°λ¦¬λŠ” μ›λž˜ μ›λž˜ μΉ΄ν‘ΈμΉœ μ›μˆ­μ΄λ₯Ό μ‚¬μš©ν•΄μ„œ
이 μ‹€ν—˜μ„ ν–ˆλŠ”λ°, μš°λ¦¬κ°€ ν–ˆλ˜ 첫 μ‹€ν—˜μ„ λ³΄μ—¬λ“œλ¦¬μ£ .
12:47
And I'm going to show you the first experiment that we did.
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12:49
It has now been done with dogs and with birds
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κ·Έ ν›„ λΉ„μŠ·ν•œ μ‹€ν—˜λ“€μ΄ 개, μ‘°λ₯˜, 그리고
12:52
and with chimpanzees.
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μΉ¨νŒμ§€λ₯Ό μ‚¬μš©ν•΄μ„œ λ˜ν’€μ΄ 됐죠.
12:54
But with Sarah Brosnan, we started out with Capuchin monkeys.
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어쨋건, 저희듀은 사라 λΈŒλ‘œμŠ€λ‚œκ³Ό μΉ΄ν‘ΈμΉœ μ›μˆ­μ΄ μ‹€ν—˜μ„ ν–ˆμ£ .
저희듀은 μΉ΄ν‘ΈμΉœ μ›μˆ­μ΄ 두 λ§ˆλ¦¬κ°€
12:59
So what we did is we put two Capuchin monkeys side-by-side.
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μ‹€ν—˜μ‹€μ—μ„œ μ˜†μ— λ‚˜λž€νžˆ 있게 ν–ˆμ£ . 그듀은
13:02
Again, these animals, live in a group, they know each other.
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같은 κ·Έλ£Ήμ—μ„œ μƒν™œν–ˆκΈ° λ•Œλ¬Έμ— μ„œλ‘œ μ•„λŠ” μ‚¬μ΄μ˜€μ–΄μš”.
μš°λ¦¬λŠ” 그듀을 κ·Έλ£Ήμ—μ„œ λΆ„λ¦¬μ‹œμΌœ μ‹€ν—˜λ°©μ— λ„£μ—ˆμ£ .
13:05
We take them out of the group, put them in a test chamber.
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그듀은 맀우 κ°„λ‹¨ν•œ
13:09
And there's a very simple task that they need to do.
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일을 ν•΄μ•Ό ν–ˆμ–΄μš”.
13:11
And if you give both of them cucumber for the task,
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μ˜†μ— λ‚˜λž€νžˆ 앉아 μžˆλŠ” 이 μ›μˆ­μ΄λ“€μ—κ²Œ μΌν• λ•Œ λ§ˆλ‹€
였이λ₯Ό μ£Όλ©΄ μ•„λ¬΄λŸ° ꡰ말없이
13:15
the two monkeys side-by-side,
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13:16
they're perfectly willing to do this 25 times in a row.
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κ³„μ†ν•΄μ„œ 25λ²ˆμ΄λ‚˜ 이 일을 λ°˜λ³΅ν•˜μ£ .
κ·ΈλŸ¬λ‹ˆκΉŒ 비둝 μ €μ—κ²Œ μ˜€μ΄λŠ” λ¬Όμ΄λ‚˜ λ§ˆμ°¬κ°€μ§€μ§€λ§Œ
13:19
So cucumber, even though it's only really water in my opinion,
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13:22
but cucumber is perfectly fine for them.
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κ·Έ μ›μˆ­μ΄λ“€μ€ 였이λ₯Ό 정말 μ’‹μ•„ν•œλ‹€λŠ” λ§μ΄μ—ˆμ£ .
μŠˆνΌλ§ˆμΌ“μ—μ„œ 포도가 μ˜€μ΄λ³΄λ‹€
13:26
Now if you give the partner grapes --
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13:28
the food preferences of my Capuchin monkeys
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더 λΉ„μ‹Ό κ²ƒμ²˜λŸΌ μΉ΄ν‘ΈμΉœμ›μˆ­μ΄λ“€λ„
13:30
correspond exactly with the prices in the supermarket --
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μ˜€μ΄λ³΄λ‹€λŠ” 포도λ₯Ό 훨씬 더 μ’‹μ•„ν•˜λŠ”λ°
13:33
and so if you give them grapes -- it's a far better food --
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ν•œ λ§ˆλ¦¬μ—κ²Œλ§Œ 포도λ₯Ό μ£Όλ©΄ κ·Έλ“€μ—κ²Œ
λΆˆκ³΅ν‰ν•œ λŒ€μš°λ₯Ό ν•΄μ£ΌλŠ” 것이 돼죠.
13:37
then you create inequity between them.
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13:39
So that's the experiment we did.
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κ·Έλž˜μ„œ μš°λ¦¬λŠ” λ°”λ‘œ 그런 μ‹€ν—˜μ„ ν–ˆμ£ .
13:41
Recently, we videotaped it with new monkeys
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κ·Όλž˜μ— 저희듀은 이런 일을 ν•΄λ³Έ 적이 μ—†λŠ” μ›μˆ­μ΄λ“€μ΄
13:43
who'd never done the task,
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더 κ°•ν•œ λ°˜μ‘μ„ 보일 것이라고 μƒκ°ν•˜κ³ 
13:45
thinking that maybe they would have a stronger reaction,
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그런 μ›μˆ­μ΄λ₯Ό λ…Ήν™”ν–ˆλŠ”λ° 사싀 그랬죠.
13:47
and that turned out to be right.
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μ™Όμͺ½μ— μžˆλŠ” μ›μˆ­μ΄λŠ” 였이λ₯Ό λ°›κ³ ,
13:49
The one on the left is the monkey who gets cucumber.
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였λ₯Έμͺ½μ— μžˆλŠ” μ›μˆ­μ΄λŠ” 포도λ₯Ό λ°›μ£ .
13:52
The one on the right is the one who gets grapes.
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μš°λ¦¬λŠ” μ™Όμͺ½μ— μžˆλŠ” μ›μˆ­μ΄μ—κ²Œ
13:54
The one who gets cucumber --
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13:55
note that the first piece of cucumber is perfectly fine.
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였이λ₯Ό μ€¬λŠ”λ° μ²˜μŒμ—λŠ” 였이λ₯Ό
잘 λ°›μ•„ λ¨Ήμ—ˆλ‹€λŠ”κ±Έ κΈ°μ–΅ν•΄ λ‘μ„Έμš”.
13:58
The first piece she eats.
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14:00
Then she sees the other one getting grape, and you will see what happens.
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그런데 자기 νŒŒνŠΈλ„ˆλŠ” 포도λ₯Ό λ°›λŠ”κ±Έ 보고 μ–΄λ–»κ²Œ ν–‰λ™ν•˜λŠ”μ§€ λ³΄μ„Έμš”.
μ›μˆ­μ΄λ“€μ΄ μš°λ¦¬μ—κ²Œ 돌맹이λ₯Ό μ£Όλ©΄
14:04
So she gives a rock to us. That's the task.
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κ·Έ λŒ“κ°€λ‘œ 였이λ₯Ό μ£Όκ³  κ·Έ μ›μˆ­μ΄λŠ” κ·Έκ±Έ λ¨ΉλŠ”κ±°μ£ .
14:07
And we give her a piece of cucumber and she eats it.
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λ‹€λ₯Έ μ›μˆ­μ΄λ„ μš°λ¦¬μ—κ²Œ 돌맹이λ₯Ό μ£Όμ£ .
14:10
The other one needs to give a rock to us.
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그런데 κ·Έ μ›μˆ­μ΄κ°€ 돌맹이λ₯Ό μ£Όλ©΄
14:13
And that's what she does.
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14:15
And she gets a grape ...
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κ·Έ μ›μˆ­μ΄λŠ” 포도λ₯Ό ν•œ μ•Œ λ°›μ•„ λ¨Ήμ£ .
14:18
and eats it.
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λ‹€λ₯Έ μ›μˆ­μ΄λŠ” κ·Έκ±Έ λ΄…λ‹ˆλ‹€.
14:20
The other one sees that.
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이제 μš°λ¦¬μ—κ²Œ 돌맹이λ₯Ό ν•˜λ‚˜ μ£Όκ³ 
14:21
She gives a rock to us now,
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14:22
gets, again, cucumber.
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κ·Έ λŒ“κ°€λ‘œ 또 였이λ₯Ό λ°›μ£ .
14:27
(Laughter)
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(μ›ƒμŒ)
14:41
(Laughter ends)
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이 μ›μˆ­μ΄λŠ” 돌맹이λ₯Ό 벽에 ν…ŒμŠ€νŠΈν•˜μ£ .
14:43
She tests a rock now against the wall.
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이제 돌맹이λ₯Ό μš°λ¦¬μ—κ²Œ μ€˜μ•Όμ£ .
14:46
She needs to give it to us.
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그런데 또 였이λ₯Ό λ°›μ£ .
14:48
And she gets cucumber again.
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14:52
(Laughter)
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(μ›ƒμŒ)
이건 μ›”μŠ€νŠΈλ¦¬νŠΈμ˜ μ‹œμœ„μ™€ 근본적으둜 같은 κ²λ‹ˆλ‹€.
14:59
So this is basically the Wall Street protest that you see here.
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15:02
(Laughter)
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(μ›ƒμŒ)
15:05
(Applause)
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(λ°•μˆ˜)
아직 2λΆ„ λ‚¨μ•˜μœΌλ‹ˆκΉŒ
15:09
I still have two minutes left --
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μž¬λ―ΈμžˆλŠ” 이야기λ₯Ό ν•˜λ‚˜ λ§μ”€λ“œλ¦¬μ£ .
15:11
let me tell you a funny story about this.
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이 μ‹€ν—˜μ€ μ•„μ£Ό 유λͺ…ν•΄μ Έμ„œ μš°λ¦¬λŠ”
15:13
This study became very famous and we got a lot of comments,
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특히 인λ₯˜ν•™μž, κ²½μ œν•™μž, 그리고
μ² ν•™μž 같은 μ‚¬λžŒλ“€λ‘œλΆ€ν„°
15:17
especially anthropologists, economists, philosophers.
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λ§Žμ€ μ½”λ©˜νŠΈλ₯Ό λ°›μ•˜μ£ .
15:20
They didn't like this at all.
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그듀은 우리의 μ‹€ν—˜ κ²°κ³Όλ₯Ό μ‹«μ–΄ν–ˆμ–΄μš”.
15:22
Because they had decided in their minds, I believe,
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그듀은 ν‰λ“±μ˜μ‹μ€ 맀우 λ³΅μž‘ν•œ κ°œλ…μ΄κΈ° λ•Œλ¬Έμ—
15:24
that fairness is a very complex issue, and that animals cannot have it.
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동물듀은 μ΄ν•΄ν•˜κΈ° λΆˆκ°€λŠ₯ν•˜λ‹€κ³ 
이미 κ²°λ‘  지은 λ“―ν–ˆμ£ .
15:29
And so one philosopher even wrote us
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심지어 μ–΄λ–€ μ² ν•™μžλŠ” μ €ν¬λ“€μ—κ²Œ
15:31
that it was impossible that monkeys had a sense of fairness
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νŽΈμ§€λ₯Ό μ¨μ„œ 평등사상은 ν”„λž‘μŠ€ν˜λͺ…λ•Œ 처음 μƒκΈ΄κ²ƒμ΄λ‹ˆκΉŒ
15:34
because fairness was invented during the French Revolution.
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μ›μˆ­μ΄κ°€ 평등사상을 κ°€μ§€λŠ” 것은 λΆˆκ°€λŠ₯ν•˜λ‹€κ³  λ§ν–ˆμ£ .
15:37
(Laughter)
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(μ›ƒμŒ)
μ–΄λ–€ μ‚¬λžŒμ€ 포도λ₯Ό λ°›μ•˜λ˜ μ›μˆ­μ΄κ°€ λ‹€λ₯Έ μ›μˆ­μ΄λ„ 포도λ₯Ό 받을 λ•Œ κΉŒμ§€
15:40
And another one wrote a whole chapter
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15:42
saying that he would believe it had something to do with fairness,
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포도λ₯Ό κ±°λΆ€ν•˜μ§€ μ•ŠλŠ”ν•œ 이 μ‹€ν—˜μ΄ 곡정성과 관련이
15:46
if the one who got grapes would refuse the grapes.
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μžˆλ‹€λŠ” 것을 믿을 수 μ—†λ‹€λŠ” 글을 길게 쓰기도 ν–ˆμ£ .
15:48
Now the funny thing is that Sarah Brosnan, who's been doing this with chimpanzees,
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그런데 μΉ¨νŒμ§€μ™€ 이런 연ꡬλ₯Ό μ˜€λž˜λ™μ•ˆ ν•œ
사라 λΈŒλ‘œμŠ€λ‚œμ€ λ‹€λ₯Έ μ›μˆ­μ΄μ—κ²Œλ„
15:52
had a couple of combinations of chimpanzees
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포도λ₯Ό 쀄 λ•ŒκΉŒμ§€
15:54
where, indeed, the one who would get the grape
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μžμ‹ μ˜ 포도λ₯Ό κ±°μ ˆν–ˆλ˜ μΉ¨νŒμ§€
15:57
would refuse the grape until the other guy also got a grape.
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μ‹€ν—˜ νŒŒνŠΈλ„ˆλ“€μ„ λ‘μ–΄λ²ˆ λ΄€μ—ˆμ£ .
이런 행동은 우리 인간이 가진 평등사상과 맀우 가깝죠.
16:00
So we're getting very close to the human sense of fairness.
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16:02
And I think philosophers need to rethink their philosophy for a while.
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μ €λŠ” μ² ν•™μžλ“€μ΄ κ·Έλ“€μ˜ 생각을 μž¬κ³ ν•΄μ•Ό ν•œλ‹€κ³  μƒκ°ν•©λ‹ˆλ‹€.
16:06
So let me summarize.
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제 말을 μš”μ•½ν•˜μžλ©΄
16:08
I believe there's an evolved morality.
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μ €λŠ” λ„λ•μ΄λΌλŠ” 것 μžμ²΄κ°€ μ§„ν™”ν•œλ‹€κ³  λ―ΏμŠ΅λ‹ˆλ‹€.
16:10
I think morality is much more than what I've been talking about,
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λ„λ•μ„±μ΄λž€ μ§€κΈˆκΉŒμ§€ μ œκ°€ λ§ν•œ 것보닀 훨씬 더
κΉŠμ€ 것이라고 μƒκ°ν•˜μ§€λ§Œ μš°λ¦¬κ°€ 영μž₯λ₯˜μ—μ„œ
16:13
but it would be impossible without these ingredients
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κ΄€μ°°ν•˜λŠ” κ°μ •μ΄μž…, μœ„λ‘œ, μΉœμ‚¬νšŒμ  κ²½ν–₯,
16:16
that we find in other primates,
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16:17
which are empathy and consolation,
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호혜감, 그리고 ν‰λ“±μ˜μ‹ 같은 κ΅¬μ„±μš”μ†Œκ°€
16:19
pro-social tendencies and reciprocity and a sense of fairness.
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μ—†μ΄λŠ” λ„λ•μ΄λž€ 것을 μƒκ°ν•˜κΈ° μ–΄λ ΅κ² μ£ .
κ·Έλž˜μ„œ μš°λ¦¬λŠ” μ‹ μ΄λ‚˜ 쒅ꡐ같은
16:23
And so we work on these particular issues
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16:25
to see if we can create a morality from the bottom up, so to speak,
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κ°œλ…μ„ κ°œμž…μ‹œν‚€μ§€ μ•Šκ³ 
16:28
without necessarily god and religion involved,
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기초적인 κ°„λ‹¨ν•œ 지λŠ₯μœΌλ‘œλΆ€ν„° 도덕 κ°œλ…μ„
λ°œλ‹¬μ‹œν‚¬ 수 μžˆλŠ”μ§€λ₯Ό μ—°κ΅¬ν•˜κ³  μžˆμŠ΅λ‹ˆλ‹€.
16:31
and to see how we can get to an evolved morality.
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제 강연을 κ²½μ²­ν•΄ μ£Όμ…”μ„œ κ°μ‚¬ν•©λ‹ˆλ‹€.
16:34
And I thank you for your attention.
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16:36
(Applause)
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(λ°•μˆ˜)
이 μ›Ήμ‚¬μ΄νŠΈ 정보

이 μ‚¬μ΄νŠΈλŠ” μ˜μ–΄ ν•™μŠ΅μ— μœ μš©ν•œ YouTube λ™μ˜μƒμ„ μ†Œκ°œν•©λ‹ˆλ‹€. μ „ 세계 졜고의 μ„ μƒλ‹˜λ“€μ΄ κ°€λ₯΄μΉ˜λŠ” μ˜μ–΄ μˆ˜μ—…μ„ 보게 될 κ²ƒμž…λ‹ˆλ‹€. 각 λ™μ˜μƒ νŽ˜μ΄μ§€μ— ν‘œμ‹œλ˜λŠ” μ˜μ–΄ μžλ§‰μ„ 더블 ν΄λ¦­ν•˜λ©΄ κ·Έκ³³μ—μ„œ λ™μ˜μƒμ΄ μž¬μƒλ©λ‹ˆλ‹€. λΉ„λ””μ˜€ μž¬μƒμ— 맞좰 μžλ§‰μ΄ μŠ€ν¬λ‘€λ©λ‹ˆλ‹€. μ˜κ²¬μ΄λ‚˜ μš”μ²­μ΄ μžˆλŠ” 경우 이 문의 양식을 μ‚¬μš©ν•˜μ—¬ λ¬Έμ˜ν•˜μ‹­μ‹œμ˜€.

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