The riddle of experience vs. memory | Daniel Kahneman

譯者: SHU-AN WU 審譯者: Adrienne Lin

Everybody talks about happiness these days.

最近大家都在談論快樂

I had somebody count the number of books

我請人數了有多少本書

with "happiness" in the title published in the last five years

在近五年來出版書名有提到"快樂"

and they gave up after about 40, and there were many more.

他們數到大約超過40本,並且還有更多

There is a huge wave of interest in happiness,

越來越多人對快樂的議題感到有興趣

among researchers.

展開研究

There is a lot of happiness coaching.

其中更多訓練教導人如何變快樂

Everybody would like to make people happier.

人人都想讓人更快樂

But in spite of all this flood of work,

雖這類書籍多如牛毛

there are several cognitive traps

仍有些認知上的陷阱

that sort of make it almost impossible to think straight

讓人幾乎難以直接領會

about happiness.

快樂的本質

And my talk today will be mostly about these cognitive traps.

我今天主要談論的就是這些認知陷阱

This applies to laypeople thinking about their own happiness,

它們既會影響一般人對自身快樂的觀感

and it applies to scholars thinking about happiness,

也會影響學者對快樂的判斷

because it turns out we're just as messed up as anybody else is.

因為我們和任何人一樣都會出錯

The first of these traps

第一個陷阱

is a reluctance to admit complexity.

是不願去承認快樂並不簡單

It turns out that the word "happiness"

事實證明快樂這個詞

is just not a useful word anymore,

已經再也不實用了

because we apply it to too many different things.

因為我們拿它來詮釋太多事情

I think there is one particular meaning to which we might restrict it,

我想我們應該限定它的意思

but by and large,

不過,一般而言

this is something that we'll have to give up

我們得放棄這個想法

and we'll have to adopt the more complicated view

並用更複雜的觀點來看

of what well-being is.

何謂快樂生活

The second trap is a confusion between experience and memory;

第二個陷阱是經驗和記憶間的混淆

basically, it's between being happy in your life,

基本上這是在生活中體會快樂

and being happy about your life

和覺得生活很快樂

or happy with your life.

樂觀生活之間的差別

And those are two very different concepts,

這兩者意義相差甚遠

and they're both lumped in the notion of happiness.

論及快樂常混為一談

And the third is the focusing illusion,

第三點是大事幻覺論

and it's the unfortunate fact that we can't think about any circumstance

不幸,當我們想到一些

that affects well-being

關於快樂生活的情境

without distorting its importance.

勢必會覺得它特別重要

I mean, this is a real cognitive trap.

這是真正的認知陷阱

There's just no way of getting it right.

避無可避

Now, I'd like to start with an example

現在,我想以一個例子開頭

of somebody who had a question-and-answer session

有個人上過我的課後

after one of my lectures reported a story,

在Q&A回應了一則故事

and that was a story --

這個故事是這樣的

He said he'd been listening to a symphony,

他說他有次在聽交響樂時

and it was absolutely glorious music

覺得音樂真是動聽極了

and at the very end of the recording,

但在演奏快結束時

there was a dreadful screeching sound.

卻冒出了可怕刺耳的聲音

And then he added, really quite emotionally,

接著他生氣地表示

it ruined the whole experience.

這毀了整個愉快的經驗

But it hadn't.

事實並非如此

What it had ruined were the memories of the experience.

毀了的是對於這段經驗的記憶

He had had the experience.

他經歷了這段經驗

He had had 20 minutes of glorious music.

經歷了20分鐘的聽覺饗宴

They counted for nothing

現在都不算數了

because he was left with a memory;

因為他只剩下記憶

the memory was ruined,

有污點的記憶

and the memory was all that he had gotten to keep.

他就只剩下這段記憶

What this is telling us, really,

這告訴我們

is that we might be thinking of ourselves and of other people

我們在思考自己和別人時

in terms of two selves.

用了兩種我

There is an experiencing self,

經驗的我

who lives in the present

活在當下

and knows the present,

感受當下

is capable of re-living the past,

也能感受過去的經驗

but basically it has only the present.

但基本上他只屬於當下

It's the experiencing self that the doctor approaches --

當醫生要接觸的是經驗的我

you know, when the doctor asks,

他會問

"Does it hurt now when I touch you here?"

"我碰你這裡會痛嗎?"

And then there is a remembering self,

另一個是記憶的我

and the remembering self is the one that keeps score,

負責記錄生活

and maintains the story of our life,

抒寫生活故事

and it's the one that the doctor approaches

醫生要找他時

in asking the question,

會這麼問

"How have you been feeling lately?"

"最近感覺如何?"

or "How was your trip to Albania?" or something like that.

或"去阿爾巴尼亞好玩嗎",類似的問題

Those are two very different entities,

經驗的我和記憶的我

the experiencing self and the remembering self,

兩者十分不同

and getting confused between them is part of the mess

我們之所以不懂快樂

about the notion of happiness.

兩者的混淆是部分原因

Now, the remembering self

記憶的我

is a storyteller.

負責說故事

And that really starts with a basic response of our memories --

故事從記憶中直接擷取

it starts immediately.

即時上傳

We don't only tell stories when we set out to tell stories.

我們講故事的時候並不是我們在講

Our memory tells us stories,

是我們的記憶在說故事

that is, what we get to keep from our experiences

我們從經驗中儲存下來的

is a story.

是故事

And let me begin with one example.

讓我用一個例子開頭

This is an old study.

以前有個研究

Those are actual patients undergoing a painful procedure.

由真正的病人接受痛苦的治療

I won't go into detail. It's no longer painful these days,

細節不多說,現今的療法已不再難受

but it was painful when this study was run in the 1990s.

但在實驗進行的90年代,治療令人痛不欲生

They were asked to report on their pain every 60 seconds.

病人必須每分鐘報告痛苦指數

Here are two patients,

這邊有兩個病患

those are their recordings.

還有他們的紀錄

And you are asked, "Who of them suffered more?"

我問你,"誰受苦多一點?"

And it's a very easy question.

這問題很簡單

Clearly, Patient B suffered more --

顯然,是病人B

his colonoscopy was longer,

他的結腸鏡檢查時間較長

and every minute of pain that Patient A had,

病人A每分鐘感覺的疼痛

Patient B had, and more.

病人B也感覺到了,而且更久

But now there is another question:

但現在有另一個問題

"How much did these patients think they suffered?"

"誰感覺比較痛?"

And here is a surprise.

這裡有個小意外

The surprise is that Patient A

意外的是病人A

had a much worse memory of the colonoscopy

對於結腸鏡檢查的記憶比病人B

than Patient B.

還糟糕

The stories of the colonoscopies were different,

兩段結腸鏡檢查的故事不同

and because a very critical part of the story is how it ends.

重點在於故事的結尾

And neither of these stories is very inspiring or great --

兩個故事都不怎麼啟發人心

but one of them is this distinct ... (Laughter)

不過其中之一

but one of them is distinctly worse than the other.

顯然感受比另一個還差

And the one that is worse

感覺較糟的這一個

is the one where pain was at its peak at the very end;

結尾時處於疼痛高峰

it's a bad story.

這不是個好故事

How do we know that?

我們怎知道的?

Because we asked these people after their colonoscopy,

因為我們在檢查結束後問他們

and much later, too,

稍晚之後問說

"How bad was the whole thing, in total?"

"整體而言,感覺多糟?"

And it was much worse for A than for B, in memory.

而A的記憶感覺比B糟糕許多

Now this is a direct conflict

顯然經驗的我和記憶的我之間

between the experiencing self and the remembering self.

有了直接衝突

From the point of view of the experiencing self,

就經驗的我來看

clearly, B had a worse time.

顯然B比較難受

Now, what you could do with Patient A,

那病人A的情況該怎麼解釋

and we actually ran clinical experiments,

我們實際做了臨床實驗

and it has been done, and it does work --

實驗完成了,確實有用

you could actually extend the colonoscopy of Patient A

病人A的檢查結果能得到解釋

by just keeping the tube in without jiggling it too much.

在於持續插入導管時不晃動得太厲害

That will cause the patient

雖然病人還是會痛

to suffer, but just a little

但只有一點點

and much less than before.

比先前好受許多

And if you do that for a couple of minutes,

繼續這樣做,幾分鐘下來

you have made the experiencing self

病人A的經驗的我

of Patient A worse off,

感覺每況愈下

and you have the remembering self of Patient A

而病人A記憶的我

a lot better off,

感覺好多了

because now you have endowed Patient A

因為你給了病人A

with a better story

一個好一點的故事

about his experience.

記憶他的經驗

What defines a story?

故事好壞由什麼決定?

And that is true of the stories

記憶告訴我們的故事

that memory delivers for us,

是真實的

and it's also true of the stories that we make up.

我們講的故事也是真的

What defines a story are changes,

故事好壞取決於變化

significant moments and endings.

重要時刻和結尾的變化

Endings are very, very important

結尾非常重要

and, in this case, the ending dominated.

上面的例子是結尾由主導

Now, the experiencing self

經驗的我

lives its life continuously.

延續這個生活經驗

It has moments of experience, one after the other.

擁有各種時刻的經驗,一個接一個

And you can ask: What happens to these moments?

你會問"這些時刻怎麼了?"

And the answer is really straightforward:

答案很簡單

They are lost forever.

他們永遠消失了

I mean, most of the moments of our life --

我們生活中大多數時刻

and I calculated, you know, the psychological present

我算了算,以心理學上的現在而言

is said to be about three seconds long;

據說長達三秒

that means that, you know,

這表示

in a life there are about 600 million of them;

一個人一生中有大約6億個時刻

in a month, there are about 600,000 --

一個月有60萬個時刻

most of them don't leave a trace.

它們大多數不留痕跡

Most of them are completely ignored

大多數被全然忽視了

by the remembering self.

被記憶的我忽視

And yet, somehow you get the sense

但是現在你發現

that they should count,

他們應該也算數

that what happens during these moments of experience

因為我們經驗的每分每秒發生的一切

is our life.

組成了我們的人生

It's the finite resource that we're spending

他們是我們活在地球上

while we're on this earth.

就會消耗的有限資源

And how to spend it

該如何使用

would seem to be relevant,

似乎很重要

but that is not the story

但這不是故事

that the remembering self keeps for us.

也不是記憶的我會留給我們的

So we have the remembering self

我們有記憶的我

and the experiencing self,

和經驗的我

and they're really quite distinct.

兩者很好區別

The biggest difference between them

其中最大的不同

is in the handling of time.

在於處理時間的方式

From the point of view of the experiencing self,

就經驗的我而言

if you have a vacation,

如果你有一個假期

and the second week is just as good as the first,

第二週和第一週同等快樂

then the two-week vacation

那麼兩週下來

is twice as good as the one-week vacation.

快樂的份量是一週假期的兩倍

That's not the way it works at all for the remembering self.

記憶的我不是這樣算

For the remembering self, a two-week vacation

對記憶的我來說,兩週假期

is barely better than the one-week vacation

沒有比一週假期好多少

because there are no new memories added.

因為沒有新的記憶加入

You have not changed the story.

你沒有改變故事的劇情

And in this way,

因此

time is actually the critical variable

以時間長短

that distinguishes a remembering self

區分記憶的我和經驗的我

from an experiencing self;

是不可靠的

time has very little impact on the story.

時間對故事影響不大

Now, the remembering self does more

記憶的我所做的

than remember and tell stories.

不只記憶和說故事

It is actually the one that makes decisions

他也是真正做決定的人

because, if you have a patient who has had, say,

因為,假如你的病人有選擇權

two colonoscopies with two different surgeons

先由兩個醫生分別檢查一次

and is deciding which of them to choose,

然後選擇醫生

then the one that chooses

負責選擇的

is the one that has the memory that is less bad,

會選擇感覺較好的記憶中

and that's the surgeon that will be chosen.

執行檢查的醫生

The experiencing self

經驗的我

has no voice in this choice.

做選擇時無從置喙

We actually don't choose between experiences,

我們事實上不是在兩段經驗中做選擇

we choose between memories of experiences.

而是在兩段經驗的記憶中選擇

And even when we think about the future,

而且,當我們在想未來的時候

we don't think of our future normally as experiences.

一般我們不會以經驗的形式去思考

We think of our future

我們把未來

as anticipated memories.

以預想的記憶形式呈現

And basically you can look at this,

基本上你可以看這個

you know, as a tyranny of the remembering self,

記憶的我是個暴君

and you can think of the remembering self

你可以把記憶的我想成

sort of dragging the experiencing self

有點像是在跩著經驗的我

through experiences that

透過經驗的我用不著的經驗

the experiencing self doesn't need.

主宰個人的思考

I have that sense that

我有個想法

when we go on vacations

當我們放假時

this is very frequently the case;

往往

that is, we go on vacations,

之所以放假

to a very large extent,

有很大一部分

in the service of our remembering self.

是為了記憶的我

And this is a bit hard to justify I think.

我想這有點難辯證

I mean, how much do we consume our memories?

我們使用了多少記憶

That is one of the explanations

可以解釋

that is given for the dominance

記憶的我

of the remembering self.

為何能主導

And when I think about that, I think about a vacation

這讓我想起一次假期

we had in Antarctica a few years ago,

幾年前在南極度過的假期

which was clearly the best vacation I've ever had,

可說是我最棒的一個假期

and I think of it relatively often,

和其他假期相比

relative to how much I think of other vacations.

我比較常想起他

And I probably have consumed

這趟三周的旅程

my memories of that three-week trip, I would say,

我大概用掉了

for about 25 minutes in the last four years.

過去四年來大約25分鐘的記憶量

Now, if I had ever opened the folder

現在,如果我打開資料夾

with the 600 pictures in it,

裡面有600張照片

I would have spent another hour.

我可能要多花一小時回憶

Now, that is three weeks,

三周的旅程

and that is at most an hour and a half.

最多用一個半小時回憶

There seems to be a discrepancy.

這似乎不成比例

Now, I may be a bit extreme, you know,

現在,這讓我有點不滿

in how little appetite I have for consuming memories,

因為我記得的真是太少了

but even if you do more of this,

不過就算你記得再多

there is a genuine question:

這裡有個實際的問題

Why do we put so much weight on memory

為什麼我們這麼依賴記憶

relative to the weight that we put on experiences?

比依賴經驗還多

So I want you to think

所以我希望你能思考

about a thought experiment.

一個有關思考的實驗

Imagine that for your next vacation,

想像你的下次假期

you know that at the end of the vacation

你知道假期結束後

all your pictures will be destroyed,

你的所有照片會被銷毀

and you'll get an amnesic drug

你將吞下一顆遺忘藥

so that you won't remember anything.

所以你什麼都不會記得

Now, would you choose the same vacation? (Laughter)

這樣,你還會想過同樣的假期嗎?

And if you would choose a different vacation,

如果你選了個不同的假期

there is a conflict between your two selves,

你的兩個我之間將產生衝突

and you need to think about how to adjudicate that conflict,

你得想辦法裁決這衝突

and it's actually not at all obvious, because

這不怎麼容易

if you think in terms of time,

因為若你考慮到時間

then you get one answer,

你會選不同的假期

and if you think in terms of memories,

但若你考量到記憶

you might get another answer.

你可能會選相同的假期

Why do we pick the vacations we do

我們為什麼選此而非彼

is a problem that confronts us

所要面對的問題

with a choice between the two selves.

是在兩個我之間作選擇

Now, the two selves

現在,這兩個我

bring up two notions of happiness.

帶來兩種對快樂的見解

There are really two concepts of happiness

這兩套見解

that we can apply, one per self.

分別對應了兩個我

So you can ask: How happy is the experiencing self?

因此你會問"經驗的我有多快樂?"

And then you would ask: How happy are the moments

接著問,經驗的我

in the experiencing self's life?

每一刻有多快樂?

And they're all -- happiness for moments

所有這些快樂的時刻

is a fairly complicated process.

組成過程相當複雜

What are the emotions that can be measured?

情感該如何測量?

And, by the way, now we are capable

順帶一提,我們現在

of getting a pretty good idea

對於經驗的我隨著時間感受快樂

of the happiness of the experiencing self over time.

已經有了概念

If you ask for the happiness of the remembering self,

而記憶的我所指的快樂

it's a completely different thing.

概念完全不同

This is not about how happily a person lives.

這不是一個人生活多快樂的問題

It is about how satisfied or pleased the person is

而是他對於自己的人生

when that person thinks about her life.

多滿意,多喜歡

Very different notion.

見解南轅北轍

Anyone who doesn't distinguish those notions

若不能分辨這兩項見解

is going to mess up the study of happiness,

就參不透快樂這門學問

and I belong to a crowd of students of well-being,

我和其他活得好的學生一樣

who've been messing up the study of happiness for a long time

一直以來參不透快樂

in precisely this way.

就是這個原因

The distinction between the

近年來

happiness of the experiencing self

經驗的我的快樂

and the satisfaction of the remembering self

和記憶的我的滿足

has been recognized in recent years,

之間的差別已能分清

and there are now efforts to measure the two separately.

目前正努力要分別測量兩者的程度

The Gallup Organization has a world poll

蓋洛普在世界各地做民調

where more than half a million people

其中超過50萬人

have been asked questions

曾被問到一些問題

about what they think of their life

看他們如何看待自己的生活

and about their experiences,

以及他們如何看待經驗

and there have been other efforts along those lines.

這些問題外,也做了不少調查

So in recent years, we have begun to learn

所以近年來,我們逐漸得知

about the happiness of the two selves.

兩個我個別的快樂

And the main lesson I think that we have learned

而我們主要學到的便是

is they are really different.

兩者真的很不一樣

You can know how satisfied somebody is with their life,

你可以知道一個人對生活是否滿意

and that really doesn't teach you much

但這並不能告訴你

about how happily they're living their life,

他們平常活得多快樂

and vice versa.

反之亦然

Just to give you a sense of the correlation,

只是要讓你對其中的關聯有概念

the correlation is about .5.

關聯約有五點

What that means is if you met somebody,

意思是當你見到某個人

and you were told, "Oh his father is six feet tall,"

並被告知他爸爸六呎高

how much would you know about his height?

你能知道他有多高嗎?

Well, you would know something about his height,

好吧,你可能有個概念

but there's a lot of uncertainty.

但非常不確定

You have that much uncertainty.

你沒法篤定

If I tell you that somebody ranked their life eight on a scale of ten,

若我說有人10分裡給自己的生活8分

you have a lot of uncertainty

你不能把握

about how happy they are

他們經驗的我

with their experiencing self.

有多快樂

So the correlation is low.

所以關聯性很低

We know something about what controls

我們知道什麼能夠

satisfaction of the happiness self.

讓人的快樂得到滿足

We know that money is very important,

我們知道錢很重要

goals are very important.

目標非常重要

We know that happiness is mainly

我們知道要滿足快樂

being satisfied with people that we like,

主要是由我們喜愛的人

spending time with people that we like.

和他們在一起的時間來感受

There are other pleasures, but this is dominant.

雖然有其他的原因,但這是最主要的

So if you want to maximize the happiness of the two selves,

所以若你想讓兩個我都超快樂

you are going to end up

你必須拋開過去的方式

doing very different things.

做一些很不同的事情

The bottom line of what I've said here

我說的是,至少

is that we really should not think of happiness

我們不應該把快樂

as a substitute for well-being.

當作活得好的代名詞

It is a completely different notion.

兩個完全不一樣

Now, very quickly,

現在,很快地

another reason we cannot think straight about happiness

另個我們不能理解快樂本質的原因

is that we do not attend to the same things

在於我們所指不同

when we think about life, and we actually live.

怎麼看生活,和實際怎麼過生活不一樣

So, if you ask the simple question of how happy people are in California,

所以當你問加州的人有多快樂

you are not going to get to the correct answer.

你將得不到正確答案

When you ask that question,

因為當你這麼問時

you think people must be happier in California

你認為住加州一定比較快樂

if, say, you live in Ohio.

剛好,你住在俄亥俄洲

(Laughter)

(笑聲)

And what happens is

當你在想

when you think about living in California,

住在加州有多快樂時

you are thinking of the contrast

你會想到

between California and other places,

加州和其他地方的差異

and that contrast, say, is in climate.

差異,其實是氣候的不同

Well, it turns out that climate

這也證明氣候條件

is not very important to the experiencing self

對於經驗的我並不很重要

and it's not even very important to the reflective self

事實上對衡量人有多快樂

that decides how happy people are.

也不太重要

But now, because the reflective self is in charge,

不過,既然現在是由思考主導

you may end up -- some people may end up

一些人可能會得到一個結論

moving to California.

就是搬到加州

And it's sort of interesting to trace what is going to happen

追蹤為了更快樂而搬去加州的人

to people who move to California in the hope of getting happier.

觀看他們的後續發展,相當有趣

Well, their experiencing self

他們的經驗的我

is not going to get happier.

不會變得比較快樂

We know that.

這我們都知道

But one thing will happen: They will think they are happier,

不過一件事發生了,他們覺得自己快樂多了.

because, when they think about it,

因為在他們思考時

they'll be reminded of how horrible the weather was in Ohio,

他們會想到俄亥俄州的壞天氣

and they will feel they made the right decision.

並覺得自己做了正確的決定

It is very difficult

要理解快樂生活

to think straight about well-being,

實在很難

and I hope I have given you a sense

我希望已經讓你們有點概念

of how difficult it is.

明白這到底有多難

Thank you.

謝謝

(Applause)

(掌聲)

Chris Anderson: Thank you. I've got a question for you.

謝謝你的演說,我有問題想請教你

Thank you so much.

真的很感謝你

Now, when we were on the phone a few weeks ago,

我們幾星期前在電話裡

you mentioned to me that there was quite an interesting result

你提過蓋洛普的調查中

came out of that Gallup survey.

有個有趣的發現

Is that something you can share

現在你可以跟我們分享一下嗎

since you do have a few moments left now?

還有幾分鐘

Daniel Kahneman: Sure.

好的

I think the most interesting result that we found in the Gallup survey

我想蓋洛普調查的發現,最有趣的

is a number, which we absolutely did not expect to find.

是個數字,能發現它實屬意外

We found that with respect to the happiness

我們發現關於經驗我的快樂

of the experiencing self.

有個現象

When we looked at how feelings,

就是人的感覺

vary with income.

會隨收入而不同

And it turns out that, below an income

結果發現,對美國人而言

of 60,000 dollars a year, for Americans --

年收入低於6萬美元的人

and that's a very large sample of Americans, like 600,000,

佔了樣本中很大一部份,約60萬

so it's a large representative sample --

但這些年收入低於60萬美元的樣本

below an income of 600,000 dollars a year...

相當具有指標性

CA: 60,000.

是6萬美元

DK: 60,000.

6萬美元

(Laughter)

(笑聲)

60,000 dollars a year, people are unhappy,

年收入6萬美元的人不快樂

and they get progressively unhappier the poorer they get.

而且越窮的人數據顯示越不快樂

Above that, we get an absolutely flat line.

6萬以上,我們得到一條水平線

I mean I've rarely seen lines so flat.

難得看到這麼平坦的線

Clearly, what is happening is

顯然

money does not buy you experiential happiness,

金錢買不了經驗的快樂

but lack of money certainly buys you misery,

但沒錢除了悲慘什麼都買不到

and we can measure that misery

而悲慘的程度差別

very, very clearly.

顯而易見

In terms of the other self, the remembering self,

就另一個我,記憶的我而言

you get a different story.

你有了不一樣的故事

The more money you earn, the more satisfied you are.

你賺得越多就越滿意

That does not hold for emotions.

跟情感沒有關係

CA: But Danny, the whole American endeavor is about

可是丹尼,所有美國人奮鬥的目標是

life, liberty, the pursuit of happiness.

生命,自由和追求幸福的權利

If people took seriously that finding,

如果大家認真看待這項發現

I mean, it seems to turn upside down

似乎就顛覆了

everything we believe about, like for example,

我們相信的一切

taxation policy and so forth.

好比課稅政策等

Is there any chance that politicians, that the country generally,

政治人物,國家有沒有可能

would take a finding like that seriously

正視這樣的發現

and run public policy based on it?

依此施政

DK: You know I think that there is recognition

我想快樂研究在政策中

of the role of happiness research in public policy.

所扮演的角色這項認知

The recognition is going to be slow in the United States,

在美國散播速度緩慢

no question about that,

無庸置疑

but in the U.K., it is happening,

但在英國,他正持續發酵

and in other countries it is happening.

在其他國家也是

People are recognizing that they ought

一般人開始認知到

to be thinking of happiness

他們應該在思考政策時

when they think of public policy.

同時將快樂納入考量

It's going to take a while,

這要花些時間

and people are going to debate

人民將開始思考

whether they want to study experience happiness,

他們要的是經驗的快樂

or whether they want to study life evaluation,

或是要為生活打分數

so we need to have that debate fairly soon.

因此很快,我們將要理解這個問題

How to enhance happiness

如何增進快樂

goes very different ways depending on how you think,

有各種不同方式,事關你怎麼想

and whether you think of the remembering self

想的是記憶的我

or you think of the experiencing self.

還是經驗的我

This is going to influence policy, I think, in years to come.

我想幾年之內,這將影響政策

In the United States, efforts are being made

美國內付出許多努力

to measure the experience happiness of the population.

來衡量大眾經驗的快樂

This is going to be, I think, within the next decade or two,

我想,十年到二十年內

part of national statistics.

這將列為國內統計數據的一部份

CA: Well, it seems to me that this issue will -- or at least should be --

這個議題對我來說似乎

the most interesting policy discussion to track

至少是幾年內

over the next few years.

最有趣的政策討論議題

Thank you so much for inventing behavioral economics.

感謝你創造了行為經濟學

Thank you, Danny Kahneman.

感謝丹尼爾卡內曼