The riddle of experience vs. memory | Daniel Kahneman

ダニエル・カーネマン： 経験と記憶の謎

翻訳: Takako Sato 校正: Natsuhiko Mizutani

Everybody talks about happiness these days.

最近 幸福について話す人が多いですね

I had somebody count the number of books

過去5年に出版され タイトルに“幸福”が

with "happiness" in the title published in the last five years

入っている本を ある人に数えてもらったところ

and they gave up after about 40, and there were many more.

あまりの量で 40冊ほどで諦めてしまいました

There is a huge wave of interest in happiness,

研究者たちの幸福に対する興味の高まりは

among researchers.

かなりのものです

There is a lot of happiness coaching.

幸福のコーチングもたくさん行われ

Everybody would like to make people happier.

皆に幸福になってもらいたいことがわかります

But in spite of all this flood of work,

しかし そのような努力があるにも関わらず

there are several cognitive traps

幸福について 明瞭に考えることを

that sort of make it almost impossible to think straight

ほぼ不可能にしてしまう認知の罠が

about happiness.

幾つかあります

And my talk today will be mostly about these cognitive traps.

今日は この認知の罠を取り上げます

This applies to laypeople thinking about their own happiness,

これは自らの幸福を願う一般の人にも

and it applies to scholars thinking about happiness,

幸福を追究する学者にも当てはまります

because it turns out we're just as messed up as anybody else is.

なぜなら 誰もが混乱した状態にいるからです

The first of these traps

罠の一つは

is a reluctance to admit complexity.

複雑さを認めることへの抵抗感にあります

It turns out that the word "happiness"

幸福という言葉は もはや役立つ言葉ではない―

is just not a useful word anymore,

という事が明らかになりました

because we apply it to too many different things.

この言葉を様々な事に あてはめすぎるからです

I think there is one particular meaning to which we might restrict it,

この言葉には 特定の意味合いがありますが

but by and large,

概して 狭い意味に

this is something that we'll have to give up

限定することは諦めて

and we'll have to adopt the more complicated view

幸福な状態とは何か もっと複雑な見方を

of what well-being is.

しなくてはいけないのです

The second trap is a confusion between experience and memory;

二つめの罠は 体験と記憶を混同してしまうことです

basically, it's between being happy in your life,

生活の中で見いだす幸福と

and being happy about your life

自分の人生の幸福度合い

or happy with your life.

この違いです

And those are two very different concepts,

この二つは非常に異なる概念ですが

and they're both lumped in the notion of happiness.

どちらも幸福という一つの観念にまとめられがちです

And the third is the focusing illusion,

三つめは錯覚に焦点を置くこと

and it's the unfortunate fact that we can't think about any circumstance

幸福の状態を左右する状況を

that affects well-being

ゆがめて考えてしまうのは

without distorting its importance.

残念なことです

I mean, this is a real cognitive trap.

これは まさに認知の罠です

There's just no way of getting it right.

正確に理解する方法が無いのです

Now, I'd like to start with an example

例を出してみましょう

of somebody who had a question-and-answer session

私の講義の後におこなった質疑応答で

after one of my lectures reported a story,

ある方がこんな話をしました

and that was a story --

彼は交響曲を聴いていて

He said he'd been listening to a symphony,

その音楽に聞き惚れていたところ

and it was absolutely glorious music

その曲の終わりに

and at the very end of the recording,

耳をつんざく音が入っていました

there was a dreadful screeching sound.

彼はかなり感情的に

And then he added, really quite emotionally,

曲が台無しになった と言いました

it ruined the whole experience.

でも 台無しになったのは

But it hadn't.

曲ではなく その経験の記憶です

What it had ruined were the memories of the experience.

彼は素晴らしい曲を

He had had the experience.

20分聴いていたのに

He had had 20 minutes of glorious music.

その価値がなくなったのは

They counted for nothing

台無しになった記憶が

because he was left with a memory;

残ったからです

the memory was ruined,

彼に残ったのは記憶しかありません

and the memory was all that he had gotten to keep.

この話から 我々が

What this is telling us, really,

自らを二つの自己として

is that we might be thinking of ourselves and of other people

考えているらしいとわかります

in terms of two selves.

経験の自己―

There is an experiencing self,

これは 現在を生き

who lives in the present

現在を経験し

and knows the present,

過去にも戻れる自己です

is capable of re-living the past,

でも基本的には現在しかありません

but basically it has only the present.

例えば 医師が “ここを触ったら痛みますか？” と

It's the experiencing self that the doctor approaches --

尋ねる相手は

you know, when the doctor asks,

経験の自己です

"Does it hurt now when I touch you here?"

そして 記憶の自己というのがあります

And then there is a remembering self,

記憶の自己とは 記録を残し

and the remembering self is the one that keeps score,

人生の物語を紡ぎます

and maintains the story of our life,

医師が尋ねる質問を

and it's the one that the doctor approaches

例に出すと

in asking the question,

“最近の調子はどうですか？”

"How have you been feeling lately?"

“旅行はいかがでしたか？” なんて質問です

or "How was your trip to Albania?" or something like that.

この二つは まったく異なるもので

Those are two very different entities,

“経験の自己”と“記憶の自己”を

the experiencing self and the remembering self,

混同してしまうのは 幸福の観念に見られる

and getting confused between them is part of the mess

混乱なのです

about the notion of happiness.

記憶の自己は

Now, the remembering self

語り手です

is a storyteller.

我々の記憶の基本的な反応で

And that really starts with a basic response of our memories --

すぐに動き出します

it starts immediately.

話をするとき 我々が単純に語っているのではなく

We don't only tell stories when we set out to tell stories.

記憶が物語るのです

Our memory tells us stories,

要は経験から 引き継がれたものが

that is, what we get to keep from our experiences

話になるのです

is a story.

その一例を挙げてみます

And let me begin with one example.

昔行われた研究で

This is an old study.

大腸内視鏡検査を受けた実際の患者から得たデータです

Those are actual patients undergoing a painful procedure.

この検査は今となっては痛みを伴いませんが

I won't go into detail. It's no longer painful these days,

研究が行われた90年代には痛みを伴う検査でした

but it was painful when this study was run in the 1990s.

患者は60秒ごとに 痛みの度合いを報告するように言われ

They were asked to report on their pain every 60 seconds.

これは二人の患者と

Here are two patients,

彼らの痛みを記録したものです

those are their recordings.

この二人のうち より苦しんだのは

And you are asked, "Who of them suffered more?"

どちらかと聞かれたら

And it's a very easy question.

明らかに それは患者Bですね

Clearly, Patient B suffered more --

彼の検査時間のほうが長く

his colonoscopy was longer,

患者Aが毎分感じた痛み以上に

and every minute of pain that Patient A had,

患者Bは痛みを感じました

Patient B had, and more.

さて 別の質問をします

But now there is another question:

患者自身に どれだけ苦しんだと思うかと尋ねると

"How much did these patients think they suffered?"

驚くことに

And here is a surprise.

患者Bよりも

The surprise is that Patient A

患者Aのほうが より嫌な記憶として

had a much worse memory of the colonoscopy

覚えていたのです

than Patient B.

二人の検査の話は異なっていました

The stories of the colonoscopies were different,

なぜなら その話の一番重要な部分は 検査の終わり方なのです

and because a very critical part of the story is how it ends.

どちらの話も 心を打たれるような内容ではありませんが

And neither of these stories is very inspiring or great --

一方は もう片方よりも

but one of them is this distinct ... (Laughter)

明らかに悲惨なものなのです

but one of them is distinctly worse than the other.

より嫌な記憶として語られた方は

And the one that is worse

まさに終わるときに痛みがピークを迎えていました

is the one where pain was at its peak at the very end;

本当に悲惨なものです

it's a bad story.

対象となった患者には

How do we know that?

検査後と かなり時間が経ってから

Because we asked these people after their colonoscopy,

インタビューしました

and much later, too,

検査全体の印象を評価してもらうと

"How bad was the whole thing, in total?"

患者Bよりも 患者Aが より大変だったと答えました

And it was much worse for A than for B, in memory.

これは経験の自己と

Now this is a direct conflict

記憶の自己の間で起こる はっきりとした矛盾です

between the experiencing self and the remembering self.

経験の自己の視点で見ると

From the point of view of the experiencing self,

患者Bのほうが大変だったのは明らかです

clearly, B had a worse time.

患者Aにどうすべきだったか

Now, what you could do with Patient A,

実際に行った臨床実験で

and we actually ran clinical experiments,

効果が確かめられているのですが

and it has been done, and it does work --

患者Aのチューブをそれほど動かさず

you could actually extend the colonoscopy of Patient A

大腸内視鏡検査を長引かせます

by just keeping the tube in without jiggling it too much.

そうすることで患者は痛みを感じますが

That will cause the patient

その痛みは ほんの少しで

to suffer, but just a little

それまでに比べて 痛みは激減します

and much less than before.

これを数分やれば

And if you do that for a couple of minutes,

患者Aの経験の自己には

you have made the experiencing self

つらい思いをさせますが

of Patient A worse off,

記憶の自己には

and you have the remembering self of Patient A

ずっとましな処置です

a lot better off,

なぜなら 患者Aに与えた

because now you have endowed Patient A

経験の物語は

with a better story

ましなものになっているからです

about his experience.

物語を形作るのは何でしょう

What defines a story?

これは記憶を通して

And that is true of the stories

我々が思い出す話や

that memory delivers for us,

我々が作り上げる話にも共通したことです

and it's also true of the stories that we make up.

話を明確にするものは 変化であり

What defines a story are changes,

決定的な瞬間であり 結末なのです

significant moments and endings.

結末は非常に重要な役割を果たしていて

Endings are very, very important

この患者のケースでは検査の締めくくりが左右したのです

and, in this case, the ending dominated.

さて 経験の自己の

Now, the experiencing self

人生には切れ目もなく

lives its life continuously.

どんな瞬間でも 次から次へと経験をしています

It has moments of experience, one after the other.

“この瞬間”の行方を問うと

And you can ask: What happens to these moments?

答えは非常に簡単で

And the answer is really straightforward:

永久に失われます

They are lost forever.

人生における時間の大半です

I mean, most of the moments of our life --

心理的現在は 約3秒だと

and I calculated, you know, the psychological present

言われており

is said to be about three seconds long;

その3秒は

that means that, you know,

人生で約6億回

in a life there are about 600 million of them;

月に約60万回もある計算になりますが

in a month, there are about 600,000 --

ほとんどが形跡を残しません

most of them don't leave a trace.

ほとんどが記憶の自己に

Most of them are completely ignored

無視されてしまいます

by the remembering self.

それでもどういうわけか

And yet, somehow you get the sense

今この瞬間には価値があり

that they should count,

そこで起きている事こそが

that what happens during these moments of experience

人生であると感じるのです

is our life.

我々が生きる間に体験できる―

It's the finite resource that we're spending

限られたものであり

while we're on this earth.

人生をいかに過ごすかということが

And how to spend it

価値を持つように感じますが

would seem to be relevant,

これは記憶の自己が

but that is not the story

残す話とは違うのです

that the remembering self keeps for us.

記憶の自己と

So we have the remembering self

経験の自己とは

and the experiencing self,

まったく別物なのです

and they're really quite distinct.

一番の違いは

The biggest difference between them

時間の扱い方です

is in the handling of time.

経験の自己の視点で見てみましょう

From the point of view of the experiencing self,

休暇に出かけるとします

if you have a vacation,

1週目も2週目も 同じくらい楽しければ

and the second week is just as good as the first,

2週間の休暇の充足感は

then the two-week vacation

1週間の休暇の2倍です

is twice as good as the one-week vacation.

記憶の自己はこのようには働きません

That's not the way it works at all for the remembering self.

2週間の休暇は

For the remembering self, a two-week vacation

1週間の休暇と さほど変わらないのです

is barely better than the one-week vacation

なぜなら新しく加わる記憶はなく

because there are no new memories added.

話自体を変化させる事がないからです

You have not changed the story.

このように

And in this way,

時間は記憶の自己と

time is actually the critical variable

経験の自己を区別する―

that distinguishes a remembering self

重要なポイントです

from an experiencing self;

この休暇の例に 時間はあまり影響力はありません

time has very little impact on the story.

記憶の自己は 話を記憶し 語ること以上の

Now, the remembering self does more

働きがあります

than remember and tell stories.

実際に 決断をするのは記憶の自己です

It is actually the one that makes decisions

例えば 大腸内視鏡検査を２回

because, if you have a patient who has had, say,

二人の医師から受けた患者に

two colonoscopies with two different surgeons

どちらかの医師を選んでもらうとすると

and is deciding which of them to choose,

その患者は

then the one that chooses

記憶の中で ましだった方の

is the one that has the memory that is less bad,

医師を選びます

and that's the surgeon that will be chosen.

この選択をする際

The experiencing self

経験の自己は関わっていません

has no voice in this choice.

通常 我々は経験から選ぶ事はせず

We actually don't choose between experiences,

記憶から選び出します

we choose between memories of experiences.

未来のことを考える時でさえ

And even when we think about the future,

経験として考える事は 普通ありません

we don't think of our future normally as experiences.

先を見越した記憶として

We think of our future

未来を見ています

as anticipated memories.

これは記憶の自己による

And basically you can look at this,

専制政治と考えてください

you know, as a tyranny of the remembering self,

記憶の自己が決めて

and you can think of the remembering self

経験の自己に対して

sort of dragging the experiencing self

望んでいたわけでもない事も

through experiences that

経験させるのです

the experiencing self doesn't need.

私が感じるのは

I have that sense that

我々が休暇に出かけるのは

when we go on vacations

―大半のケースに言えますが―

this is very frequently the case;

休暇とは

that is, we go on vacations,

記憶の自己のために

to a very large extent,

行くものだという気がします

in the service of our remembering self.

これを正当化するのは少し難しいのですが

And this is a bit hard to justify I think.

我々は記憶をどれだけ思い返すでしょうか？

I mean, how much do we consume our memories?

これは 記憶の自己が

That is one of the explanations

支配している―

that is given for the dominance

説明の一つです

of the remembering self.

この事を考える時

And when I think about that, I think about a vacation

数年前の南極旅行を思い出します

we had in Antarctica a few years ago,

それは今までで最高と言える旅行で

which was clearly the best vacation I've ever had,

その他の旅行に比べて

and I think of it relatively often,

思い出す回数も多いのです

relative to how much I think of other vacations.

その3週間の旅行を

And I probably have consumed

過去4年のうちに思い出したのは

my memories of that three-week trip, I would say,

25分程度でしょう

for about 25 minutes in the last four years.

もしも 600枚の写真を

Now, if I had ever opened the folder

見返したとしたら

with the 600 pictures in it,

1時間追加されるくらいです

I would have spent another hour.

3週間の旅行に対し

Now, that is three weeks,

せいぜい1時間半の記憶なので

and that is at most an hour and a half.

何となく不釣り合いです

There seems to be a discrepancy.

私は平均的な人ほど

Now, I may be a bit extreme, you know,

記憶を思い返すことをしないのかもしれませんが

in how little appetite I have for consuming memories,

もっと頻繁に記憶にアクセスしたとしても

but even if you do more of this,

真の疑問が残ります

there is a genuine question:

なぜ経験と比べて

Why do we put so much weight on memory

記憶に重きを置くのでしょうか？

relative to the weight that we put on experiences?

ここで

So I want you to think

ある思考実験をしてみましょう

about a thought experiment.

皆さんの次の休暇で

Imagine that for your next vacation,

休暇の最後になって

you know that at the end of the vacation

全ての写真が削除されるとします

all your pictures will be destroyed,

皆さんは記憶喪失の薬を飲まされ

and you'll get an amnesic drug

旅行の記憶はゼロになります

so that you won't remember anything.

それでも その休暇を選ぶでしょうか？　（笑）

Now, would you choose the same vacation? (Laughter)

もし別の休暇にするならば

And if you would choose a different vacation,

二つの自己が対立しているので

there is a conflict between your two selves,

その対立をどのように解決するか考える必要がありますが

and you need to think about how to adjudicate that conflict,

実際のところ わかりづらいんです

and it's actually not at all obvious, because

時間を優先すれば

if you think in terms of time,

ある答えが出てくるでしょうし

then you get one answer,

記憶を優先すれば

and if you think in terms of memories,

別の答えが出てくるかもしれません

you might get another answer.

なぜ その休暇を選んでいるかという―

Why do we pick the vacations we do

二つの自己の間にある選択肢は

is a problem that confronts us

我々が直面する問題です

with a choice between the two selves.

二つの自己は 二つの

Now, the two selves

幸福の観念をもたらします

bring up two notions of happiness.

二つの自己に対して適用できる―

There are really two concepts of happiness

幸福の観念がひとつずつあるのです

that we can apply, one per self.

そこで出てくる質問は “経験の自己はどれだけ幸せなのか？”

So you can ask: How happy is the experiencing self?

そして “経験の自己の人生において

And then you would ask: How happy are the moments

どれだけ幸せを感じているのか？”

in the experiencing self's life?

幸福に感じる瞬間とは

And they're all -- happiness for moments

非常に複雑なプロセスです

is a fairly complicated process.

測定できる感情とは何でしょうか？

What are the emotions that can be measured?

経験の自己が感じる幸福と

And, by the way, now we are capable

時間の関係性は

of getting a pretty good idea

わかっていただけたと思います

of the happiness of the experiencing self over time.

もし 記憶の自己の幸福を尋ねるとしたら

If you ask for the happiness of the remembering self,

それはまた別物です

it's a completely different thing.

これは ある人がどれだけ幸せに暮らしているか ということではなく

This is not about how happily a person lives.

その人が自分の人生を考えたときに

It is about how satisfied or pleased the person is

どれだけ満足しているか ということです

when that person thinks about her life.

かなり違う観念ですね

Very different notion.

この観念の違いがわからなければ

Anyone who doesn't distinguish those notions

幸福の研究はうまくいきません

is going to mess up the study of happiness,

私は まさにこんな感じに

and I belong to a crowd of students of well-being,

長い間 幸福の研究がうまくいかずにいる―

who've been messing up the study of happiness for a long time

学者の１人です

in precisely this way.

経験の自己の幸福と

The distinction between the

記憶の自己の満足感が

happiness of the experiencing self

違うという事実は

and the satisfaction of the remembering self

近年 気づかれるようになってきました

has been recognized in recent years,

現在では 二つを隔てて測る努力もされています

and there are now efforts to measure the two separately.

ギャラップは 50万人を対象に

The Gallup Organization has a world poll

世界中で世論調査を行い

where more than half a million people

自分の人生と経験を

have been asked questions

どう思っているか

about what they think of their life

アンケートを行いました

and about their experiences,

そして それに沿った形で 他の調査も進んできました

and there have been other efforts along those lines.

近年では 二つの自己に絡んだ幸福に関して

So in recent years, we have begun to learn

解明し始めたところです

about the happiness of the two selves.

我々が学んだ主なことは

And the main lesson I think that we have learned

二つがまったく別物だということです

is they are really different.

ある人の人生の満足度を測る事はできても

You can know how satisfied somebody is with their life,

そこから その人が

and that really doesn't teach you much

どれだけ人生を幸せに過ごしているかはわかりません

about how happily they're living their life,

反対のことも言えます

and vice versa.

その相関性を示してみます

Just to give you a sense of the correlation,

相関性は約0.5です

the correlation is about .5.

例えば 父の身長が180cmだと

What that means is if you met somebody,

ある人が言ったとしても

and you were told, "Oh his father is six feet tall,"

彼自身の身長に関しては何もわかりませんね

how much would you know about his height?

多少の目安にはなりますが

Well, you would know something about his height,

はっきりしたことはわかりません

but there's a lot of uncertainty.

それくらい不確かだと思ってください

You have that much uncertainty.

ある人が 自分の人生は10点満点中8点だと言ったとしても

If I tell you that somebody ranked their life eight on a scale of ten,

どれだけ経験の自己が

you have a lot of uncertainty

幸せなのか

about how happy they are

推しはかることはできません

with their experiencing self.

ですから相関関係は低いのです

So the correlation is low.

幸福に対する満足度を支配する要素は

We know something about what controls

わかっています

satisfaction of the happiness self.

お金は大切ですし

We know that money is very important,

目標も大切

goals are very important.

幸福とは主に 好きな人と共に

We know that happiness is mainly

満足することであり

being satisfied with people that we like,

好きな人と時間を過ごすことです

spending time with people that we like.

他にも考えられますが これが支配的です

There are other pleasures, but this is dominant.

ですから 二つの自己の幸福度を強めたい場合は

So if you want to maximize the happiness of the two selves,

まったく異なる事柄を

you are going to end up

する事になるでしょう

doing very different things.

要は

The bottom line of what I've said here

幸福は心身ともに健全でいることと

is that we really should not think of happiness

同じ事だと考えるべきではないのです

as a substitute for well-being.

二つはまったく違った観念です

It is a completely different notion.

ここで手短に説明しますが

Now, very quickly,

幸福を考える時 これほど複雑化する もう1つの理由は

another reason we cannot think straight about happiness

人生に関して考えるときと 実際に生きている日々とでは

is that we do not attend to the same things

我々は同じことに注目していないということです

when we think about life, and we actually live.

ですから カリフォルニアの人たちに幸せの度合いを尋ねても

So, if you ask the simple question of how happy people are in California,

正しい答えは得られません

you are not going to get to the correct answer.

その質問を他の人にすると

When you ask that question,

カリフォルニアのほうが幸せなはずだと思うのです

you think people must be happier in California

例えばオハイオの人なんかね

if, say, you live in Ohio.

（笑）

(Laughter)

ここで起きるのは

And what happens is

カリフォルニアで暮らす事を考える時

when you think about living in California,

カリフォルニアと別の場所を

you are thinking of the contrast

対比させて考える ということです

between California and other places,

例えば 気候の違いです

and that contrast, say, is in climate.

実は 気候というのは

Well, it turns out that climate

経験の自己には重要ではなく

is not very important to the experiencing self

人がどれだけ幸せなのかを決める―

and it's not even very important to the reflective self

記憶の自己にも それほど重要ではありません

that decides how happy people are.

しかし 記憶の自己がつかさどっているので

But now, because the reflective self is in charge,

中には カリフォルニアへ

you may end up -- some people may end up

引っ越す人が出るのです

moving to California.

幸せになるだろうと期待してカリフォルニアへ

And it's sort of interesting to trace what is going to happen

移り住む人たちに何が起こるのか 追跡するのは興味深いんです

to people who move to California in the hope of getting happier.

経験の自己が

Well, their experiencing self

一層幸せになる事はありません

is not going to get happier.

本当です

We know that.

でも確実に言えるのは 彼らがもっと幸せだと思うようになる事です

But one thing will happen: They will think they are happier,

なぜなら 彼らはオハイオの天気が

because, when they think about it,

どれだけ悪かったか思い出し

they'll be reminded of how horrible the weather was in Ohio,

正しい決断をしたと感じるからです

and they will feel they made the right decision.

心身ともに健全でいることを

It is very difficult

事実どおりに考えるのは非常に難しいのです

to think straight about well-being,

どれだけ難しいことなのか

and I hope I have given you a sense

わかってもらえたでしょうか

of how difficult it is.

ありがとう

Thank you.

（拍手）

(Applause)

ありがとう　質問があります

Chris Anderson: Thank you. I've got a question for you.

どうもありがとう

Thank you so much.

数週間前に電話でお話しした時

Now, when we were on the phone a few weeks ago,

世論調査で浮かび上がった非常に興味深い

you mentioned to me that there was quite an interesting result

結果を教えてくれましたね

came out of that Gallup survey.

時間があるので

Is that something you can share

お話してくれませんか

since you do have a few moments left now?

もちろんです

Daniel Kahneman: Sure.

世論調査で明らかになった最も興味深いことは

I think the most interesting result that we found in the Gallup survey

予想もしていなかった数値が浮かび上がったことです

is a number, which we absolutely did not expect to find.

経験の自己から見る幸福に関し

We found that with respect to the happiness

分かったのは

of the experiencing self.

我々の感情は 収入と密接に

When we looked at how feelings,

関わっていることです

vary with income.

ここで明らかになったのは

And it turns out that, below an income

アメリカ人にとって 年収6万ドル以下は

of 60,000 dollars a year, for Americans --

60万人から聞き出した調査なので

and that's a very large sample of Americans, like 600,000,

典型的なサンプルですが

so it's a large representative sample --

年収60万ドル以下だと…

below an income of 600,000 dollars a year...

6万ドルですね？

CA: 60,000.

そうそう　6万ドル

DK: 60,000.

（笑）

(Laughter)

年収6万ドル以下だと 惨めさを感じ

60,000 dollars a year, people are unhappy,

金額が下がるほど その度合いは増します

and they get progressively unhappier the poorer they get.

6万ドル以上の場合は変化はありません

Above that, we get an absolutely flat line.

そこまで平らな線が出るのも珍しいのです

I mean I've rarely seen lines so flat.

明らかに ここで言える事は

Clearly, what is happening is

経験的な幸福をお金で買うことはできませんが

money does not buy you experiential happiness,

お金がないのと 惨めな思いをするということです

but lack of money certainly buys you misery,

その惨めさをはっきりと

and we can measure that misery

測ることもできます

very, very clearly.

記憶の自己からみると

In terms of the other self, the remembering self,

違う内容になります

you get a different story.

お金を儲けるほど 満足感は増す

The more money you earn, the more satisfied you are.

これに感情は関与しません

That does not hold for emotions.

でもアメリカ人が頑張るのも

CA: But Danny, the whole American endeavor is about

生活 自由 幸福の追求のためですよね？

life, liberty, the pursuit of happiness.

もし 皆がその調査結果を真剣に受け止めたら

If people took seriously that finding,

私たちが信じる全てを

I mean, it seems to turn upside down

180度転換するような感じがします

everything we believe about, like for example,

例えば 税制に関してとか…

taxation policy and so forth.

政治家が この調査結果を真剣に受け止めて

Is there any chance that politicians, that the country generally,

この基盤に基づいて公共政策を動かす事は

would take a finding like that seriously

今後あるでしょうか？

and run public policy based on it?

公共政策の中で

DK: You know I think that there is recognition

幸福の研究も 位置づけられていると思います

of the role of happiness research in public policy.

アメリカでの認知度向上には

The recognition is going to be slow in the United States,

間違いなく 時間がかかるでしょう

no question about that,

イギリスや他国では

but in the U.K., it is happening,

認知度が高まっていて

and in other countries it is happening.

公共政策を考える際

People are recognizing that they ought

幸福を視野に入れる必要性が

to be thinking of happiness

考慮されています

when they think of public policy.

時間はかかりますし

It's going to take a while,

幸福の経験の研究や

and people are going to debate

生活の評価の研究に関して

whether they want to study experience happiness,

議論がなされるでしょう

or whether they want to study life evaluation,

その議論も近々必要ですね

so we need to have that debate fairly soon.

幸福の高め方は

How to enhance happiness

その人の考え方によって異なりますし

goes very different ways depending on how you think,

記憶の自己や経験の自己のどちらを

and whether you think of the remembering self

考えるかによっても異なります

or you think of the experiencing self.

これは今後 政策に影響するでしょう

This is going to influence policy, I think, in years to come.

アメリカでは 全国民の経験的な幸福を

In the United States, efforts are being made

測る努力がされています

to measure the experience happiness of the population.

今後10~20年以内に これは国家統計の

This is going to be, I think, within the next decade or two,

一部になると思います

part of national statistics.

この問題は 今後数年の間

CA: Well, it seems to me that this issue will -- or at least should be --

一番興味深い政策論議に

the most interesting policy discussion to track

なりそうですね

over the next few years.

行動経済学を生み出してくれて ありがとう

Thank you so much for inventing behavioral economics.

どうもありがとう

Thank you, Danny Kahneman.