Atheism 2.0 | Alain de Botton

譯者: Sandy Li 審譯者: Shelley Krishna Tsang

One of the most common ways of dividing the world

區分世人，其中一種最常見的做法

is into those who believe

是把他們分成「信者」

and those who don't --

與「不信者」──

into the religious and the atheists.

即「有神論者」和「無神論者」

And for the last decade or so,

近十年來

it's been quite clear

何謂「無神論者」

what being an atheist means.

一直相當清晰

There have been some very vocal atheists

好些無神論者

who've pointed out,

直言不諱

not just that religion is wrong,

說宗教不僅是錯的

but that it's ridiculous.

而且還是荒謬的

These people, many of whom have lived in North Oxford,

這些無神論者，當中有許多居於牛津北部

have argued --

他們主張

they've argued that believing in God

他們認為，相信上帝存在

is akin to believing in fairies

無異於相信童話內的仙女存在

and essentially that the whole thing

究其本質

is a childish game.

宗教是幼稚的

Now I think it's too easy.

但我認為這說法太淺薄

I think it's too easy

這樣完全否定宗教

to dismiss the whole of religion that way.

過於輕易

And it's as easy as shooting fish in a barrel.

輕易如甕中捉鱉

And what I'd like to inaugurate today

今日，我想說的是

is a new way of being an atheist --

無神論者不必如此

if you like, a new version of atheism

可以說，這是一種嶄新的無神論

we could call Atheism 2.0.

我們可稱之為「無神論 2.0」

Now what is Atheism 2.0?

何謂「無神論 2.0」？

Well it starts from a very basic premise:

我們先從最基本的前提說起

of course, there's no God.

是的，世間沒有上帝

Of course, there are no deities or supernatural spirits

而且也沒有甚麼聖靈，或超自然的神明

or angels, etc.

也沒有天使之類的東西

Now let's move on; that's not the end of the story,

這不是結論，而是起點

that's the very, very beginning.

我們繼續說下去

I'm interested in the kind of constituency

我對某些人的想法很感興趣

that thinks something along these lines:

他們會想

that thinks, "I can't believe in any of this stuff.

「我不相信這些東西」

I can't believe in the doctrines.

「我不接受那些教條」

I don't think these doctrines are right.

「我不認為這些教條是對的」

But," a very important but, "I love Christmas carols.

「可是」這個心理轉折很重要，「我喜歡聖誕歌」

I really like the art of Mantegna.

「我很喜歡蒙特納的畫作」

I really like looking at old churches.

「我欣賞古老的教堂」

I really like turning the pages of the Old Testament."

「我很喜歡翻閱舊約聖經」

Whatever it may be,

諸如此類

you know the kind of thing I'm talking about --

你懂的

people who are attracted to the ritualistic side,

有些人會被宗教的某部份吸引，比如是儀式

the moralistic, communal side of religion,

宗教中的倫理，或是裡面普世共享的東西

but can't bear the doctrine.

但受不了那些教條

Until now, these people have faced a rather unpleasant choice.

直到目前為止，他們總是陷入兩難

It's almost as though either you accept the doctrine

要麼，你得一併擁護宗教教條

and then you can have all the nice stuff,

才能享有宗教美好的部份

or you reject the doctrine and

要麼，你在否定宗教教條的同時

you're living in some kind of spiritual wasteland

便讓自己置身空茫的精神世界裡

under the guidance of CNN and Walmart.

讓CNN和沃爾瑪作你的精神領袖

So that's a sort of tough choice.

二擇其一，真是個困難的選擇

I don't think we have to make that choice.

但我不認為我們一定要非此即彼

I think there is an alternative.

其實還有另一個可能性

I think there are ways --

我想我們可以

and I'm being both very respectful and completely impious --

在非常尊重，但並不崇拜宗教的前提下

of stealing from religions.

從中偷師

If you don't believe in a religion,

如果你不相信宗教

there's nothing wrong with picking and mixing,

大可萃取並融和宗教裡美好的事物

with taking out the best sides of religion.

去蕪存菁

And for me, atheism 2.0

在我而言，無神論2.0

is about both, as I say,

正正是，如我所言

a respectful and an impious way

在尊重但不崇拜宗教的前提下

of going through religions and saying, "What here could we use?"

檢視宗教的內容，並思考「這裡面有甚麼值得借鏡的？」

The secular world is full of holes.

去宗教化的現世是千瘡百孔的

We have secularized badly, I would argue.

我認為，這個社會的去宗教化，做得並不高明

And a thorough study of religion

透徹地考究宗教

could give us all sorts of insights

能讓人生活各方面

into areas of life that are not going too well.

獲得不同的啟發

And I'd like to run through a few of these today.

今天我會挑其中幾樣來說

I'd like to kick off by looking at education.

首先，我們來看看教育

Now education is a field

今時今日

the secular world really believes in.

我們對教育抱有莫大信心

When we think about how we're going to make the world a better place,

我們相信它能使世界更好

we think education; that's where we put a lot of money.

於是我們向教育投入龐大資金

Education is going to give us, not only commercial skills, industrial skills,

教育所能作的，不只是授與各項職業技能

it's also going to make us better people.

它還會導人向善

You know the kind of thing a commencement address is, and graduation ceremonies,

在開學演辭中，或畢業典禮上

those lyrical claims

常有這種堂皇動人的說法

that education, the process of education -- particularly higher education --

指教育，尤其是高等教育

will make us into nobler and better human beings.

使人變得更好更高尚

That's a lovely idea.

很美好的構想

Interesting where it came from.

值得探究的是，這構思的來源

In the early 19th century,

十九世紀初

church attendance in Western Europe

在西歐，上教會的人

started sliding down very, very sharply, and people panicked.

愈來愈少，流失得很快，大家開始不安

They asked themselves the following question.

大家想知道

They said, where are people going to find the morality,

從此，人們該從何學習倫理

where are they going to find guidance,

從何得到指引

and where are they going to find sources of consolation?

從何得到慰藉？

And influential voices came up with one answer.

後來，有人認為答案是

They said culture.

「文化」

It's to culture that we should look

我們會從文化獲得

for guidance, for consolation, for morality.

指引、慰藉、和倫理

Let's look to the plays of Shakespeare,

在莎士比亞的歌劇

the dialogues of Plato, the novels of Jane Austen.

柏拉圖《對話錄》和奧斯汀的小說裡

In there, we'll find a lot of the truths

我們可以找到許多真理

that we might previously have found in the Gospel of Saint John.

許多我們曾經在約翰福音裡找到的真理

Now I think that's a very beautiful idea and a very true idea.

從文化中學習真理，我認為是很美好，而且切實的構思

They wanted to replace scripture with culture.

以文化取代宗教

And that's a very plausible idea.

非常可行

It's also an idea that we have forgotten.

但我們早已把這想法拋諸腦後

If you went to a top university --

如果你就讀某頂尖大學

let's say you went to Harvard or Oxford or Cambridge --

比方說，哈佛、牛津或劍橋

and you said, "I've come here

你說：「我來到這兒」

because I'm in search of morality, guidance and consolation;

「是為了追尋倫理、指引和慰藉」

I want to know how to live,"

「我想知道如果好好生活」

they would show you the way to the insane asylum.

旁人會送你進精神病院

This is simply not what our grandest and best institutes of higher learning

這些尊貴的高等學府

are in the business of.

並非為幫人追尋真理而設的

Why? They don't think we need it.

為甚麼？他們認定我們不需要幫助

They don't think we are in an urgent need of assistance.

我們沒這逼切需要

They see us as adults, rational adults.

我們被視為成人，理智的成人

What we need is information.

我們被認為只需要資訊

We need data, we don't need help.

我們只需要數據，毋須幫忙

Now religions start from a very different place indeed.

宗教的觀點則截然不同

All religions, all major religions,

所有宗教，所有主流宗教

at various points call us children.

總是稱教徒為「孩子」

And like children,

像小孩一樣

they believe that we are in severe need of assistance.

急切地需要扶一把

We're only just holding it together.

我們只是勉力維持現狀

Perhaps this is just me, maybe you.

也許只有我是這樣想的，也許你也有如此想過

But anyway, we're only just holding it together.

我們只是勉力維持現狀

And we need help. Of course, we need help.

我們需要幫忙，當然，我們需要幫助

And so we need guidance and we need didactic learning.

我們需要指引，我們需要教導

You know, in the 18th century in the U.K.,

你知道，十八世紀英國

the greatest preacher, greatest religious preacher, was a man called John Wesley,

曾有一位非常非常偉大的傳教士，名為約翰．衛斯理

who went up and down this country delivering sermons,

他走入鄉郊佈道

advising people how they could live.

指導人們如果過活

He delivered sermons on the duties of parents to their children

他向人宣導，講父母對子女應有之義

and children to their parents,

講子女對父母有何責任

the duties of the rich to the poor and the poor to the rich.

講富人與窮人之間的關係

He was trying to tell people how they should live

透過佈道

through the medium of sermons,

他教人如何生活

the classic medium of delivery of religions.

佈道會是傳播宗教的經典形式

Now we've given up with the idea of sermons.

但我們已摒棄佈道會

If you said to a modern liberal individualist,

如果你告訴一名自由主義者

"Hey, how about a sermon?"

「嘿，想去佈道會嗎？」

they'd go, "No, no. I don't need one of those.

他會回應道，「不，不用了，我不需要。」

I'm an independent, individual person."

「我是一個獨立的個體。」

What's the difference between a sermon

佈道會和現世用以傳播思想的講課

and our modern, secular mode of delivery, the lecture?

有何分別？

Well a sermon wants to change your life

佈道會嘗試改變你的生命

and a lecture wants to give you a bit of information.

而講課向你提供更多資訊

And I think we need to get back to that sermon tradition.

我認為我們應該回到佈道會這傳統

The tradition of sermonizing is hugely valuable,

這是一項富有價值的傳統

because we are in need of guidance,

因為我們的確需要指引

morality and consolation --

道德觀，和慰藉

and religions know that.

宗教懂得人們需要甚麼

Another point about education:

還有一點關於教育

we tend to believe in the modern secular world

我們傾向相信在無神的現世裡

that if you tell someone something once, they'll remember it.

你只須把事情說一遍，大家便會記得

Sit them in a classroom, tell them about Plato

把二十歲的人們留在課室，說說柏拉圖

at the age of 20, send them out for a career in management consultancy for 40 years,

然後讓他們在顧問公司打拼四十年

and that lesson will stick with them.

他們仍會牢牢記住柏拉圖的一課

Religions go, "Nonsense.

宗教會認為這不可能

You need to keep repeating the lesson 10 times a day.

你得每天向他們重複十遍才行

So get on your knees and repeat it."

跪下，然後重複

That's what all religions tell us:

這就是宗教要求我們做的

"Get on you knees and repeat it 10 or 20 or 15 times a day."

「跪下，每日重複十到二十遍。」

Otherwise our minds are like sieves.

否則我們會左耳進右耳出

So religions are cultures of repetition.

換言之，宗教是重複的文化

They circle the great truths again and again and again.

重要的真理，一而再，再而三地流傳

We associate repetition with boredom.

我們會把「重複」和「沈悶」聯想在一起

"Give us the new," we're always saying.

我們老是說「給點新意」

"The new is better than the old."

「新的當然比舊的好」

If I said to you, "Okay, we're not going to have new TED.

如果我告訴：「好吧，我們不會再有新的TED

We're just going to run through all the old ones

我們只會重看已有的TED

and watch them five times because they're so true.

每天看五次，因為它們說得太對了

We're going to watch Elizabeth Gilbert five times

我們將會每天重複聽伊利莎白．喬伯五次

because what she says is so clever," you'd feel cheated.

因為她的演說實在太機智了。」你會感到受騙

Not so if you're adopting a religious mindset.

但用宗教的角度看，事情便不一樣了

The other things that religions do

除了重複，宗教還會

is to arrange time.

安排時間

All the major religions give us calendars.

所有主要宗教都有曆法

What is a calendar?

甚麼是曆法？

A calendar is a way of making sure that across the year

它是要確保我們在一年中

you will bump into certain very important ideas.

總有那麼幾天會重溫一些重要的思想

In the Catholic chronology, Catholic calendar,

對天主教徒而言

at the end of March you will think about St. Jerome

每逢三月最後一天，他們會記起聖葉理諾

and his qualities of humility and goodness

記起他的謙卑和善良

and his generosity to the poor.

還有他對窮人的慷慨

You won't do that by accident; you will do that because you are guided to do that.

你不會無緣無故想起他，那是因為曆法提醒了你

Now we don't think that way.

我們現在不這麼想了

In the secular world we think, "If an idea is important, I'll bump into it.

無神的世界裡，我們認為「如果這是一個重要的想法，我終究會遇上的

I'll just come across it."

終究會遇上的。」

Nonsense, says the religious world view.

不可能，宗教如此認為

Religious view says we need calendars, we need to structure time,

宗教認為人們需要曆法，人們需要為此安排時間

we need to synchronize encounters.

人們需要同時紀念

This comes across also

同樣道理

in the way in which religions set up rituals

宗教為各樣情緒

around important feelings.

設立各項儀式

Take the Moon. It's really important to look at the Moon.

比方說月亮。當你看著月亮時

You know, when you look at the Moon,

你知道，當你看著它時

you think, "I'm really small. What are my problems?"

你會想，「我是很渺小的，我的困擾算甚麼？」

It sets things into perspective, etc., etc.

它使我們用不同觀點看待事物

We should all look at the Moon a bit more often. We don't.

我們都應該多點看月亮，但我們沒有

Why don't we? Well there's nothing to tell us, "Look at the Moon."

為甚麼不？因為沒有人提醒我們，是時候注視月亮了

But if you're a Zen Buddhist in the middle of September,

但如果你是禪宗佛教徒，每年九月中旬

you will be ordered out of your home, made to stand on a canonical platform

你會受呼召離開家門，站到神壇上

and made to celebrate the festival of Tsukimi,

慶祝月見節

where you will be given poems to read

你會獲發頌詩

in honor of the Moon and the passage of time

以歌頌月亮，和時間的流浙

and the frailty of life that it should remind us of.

並感悟生命的脆弱

You'll be handed rice cakes.

你會獲發米餅

And the Moon and the reflection on the Moon

於是月亮和它的倒影

will have a secure place in your heart.

便印在你心上

That's very good.

這一切都很好

The other thing that religions are really aware of

此外，宗教還察覺意到

is: speak well --

大家該好好說話

I'm not doing a very good job of this here --

我並不特別擅長說話

but oratory, oratory is absolutely key to religions.

但演講，演講絕對是宗教活動的核心

In the secular world, you can come through the university system and be a lousy speaker

在去宗教化的現世，即使完成大學，你的演講還是可以很糟糕

and still have a great career.

但還是能找到工作

But the religious world doesn't think that way.

但宗教世界不然

What you're saying needs to be backed up

不管你說甚麼

by a really convincing way of saying it.

都得讓人信服

So if you go to an African-American Pentecostalist church

如果你去美國南部的非裔美藉教堂

in the American South

出席五旬節會

and you listen to how they talk,

聽聽他們如何演講

my goodness, they talk well.

天啊，說得真好

After every convincing point, people will go, "Amen, amen, amen."

說到動人處，會眾會高呼「阿門，阿門，阿門」

At the end of a really rousing paragraph, they'll all stand up,

在一段振奮人心的演辭，會眾會全體起立

and they'll go, "Thank you Jesus, thank you Christ, thank you Savior."

然後說「感謝耶穌，感謝基督，感謝救主」

If we were doing it like they do it --

現在如果我們照辦煮碗

let's not do it, but if we were to do it --

不用真的做，而是，想像我們會這麼做

I would tell you something like, "Culture should replace scripture."

我說的內容，大概會是「文化應該取代宗教」

And you would go, "Amen, amen, amen."

你們合該高呼「阿門，阿門，阿門」

And at the end of my talk, you would all stand up

在我的演說結束後，你們都會起立

and you would go, "Thank you Plato, thank you Shakespeare, thank you Jane Austen."

然後說「感謝柏拉圖，感謝莎翁，感謝珍．奧斯汀」

And we'd know that we had a real rhythm going.

我們有默契，知道一來一回的節奏

All right, all right. We're getting there. We're getting there.

好了，好了，快到重點了，快到重點了

(Applause)

（掌聲）

The other thing that religions know is we're not just brains,

還有一點，宗教知道人們不止有理性的腦袋

we are also bodies.

我們還有肉身

And when they teach us a lesson,

宗教的教義

they do it via the body.

教徒透過身體學習

So for example,

舉例說

take the Jewish idea of forgiveness.

猶太教中「寬恕」的概念

Jews are very interested in forgiveness

猶太人對「寬恕」很上心

and how we should start anew and start afresh.

認為寬恕之後是嶄新的開始

They don't just deliver us sermons on this.

他們不止有文字上的教義

They don't just give us books or words about this.

不止是書本或口述

They tell us to have a bath.

他們會讓你去洗個澡

So in Orthodox Jewish communities, every Friday you go to a Mikveh.

在信奉正統猶太教的社區，逢星期五，他們會去淨身池

You immerse yourself in the water,

把自己沈沒在水中

and a physical action backs up a philosophical idea.

用身體行動實踐哲學理念

We don't tend to do that.

我們很少這麼做

Our ideas are in one area and our behavior with our bodies is in another.

我們所想，與我們所作，並不一致

Religions are fascinating in the way they try and combine the two.

宗教引人入勝，因為它能把二者合而為一

Let's look at art now.

現在讓我們來看看藝術

Now art is something that in the secular world,

藝術在無神的世界裡

we think very highly of. We think art is really, really important.

評價很高，我們認為它非常非常重要

A lot of our surplus wealth goes to museums, etc.

許多剩餘財富都進貢到美術館去

We sometimes hear it said

有這麼一個講法

that museums are our new cathedrals, or our new churches.

說美術館是新式教堂

You've heard that saying.

你聽過的

Now I think that the potential is there,

我認為美術館的確有此潛力

but we've completely let ourselves down.

但我們沒把它發揮出來

And the reason we've let ourselves down

其原因在於

is that we're not properly studying

我們沒有好好研究

how religions handle art.

宗教如何看待藝術

The two really bad ideas that are hovering in the modern world

現世有兩個很差勁的想法

that inhibit our capacity to draw strength from art:

讓我們無法好好發揮藝術的力量

The first idea is that art should be for art's sake --

其一，藝術純為藝術而生

a ridiculous idea --

荒謬

an idea that art should live in a hermetic bubble

說藝術應該高深莫測

and should not try to do anything with this troubled world.

並毋須回應世界的問題

I couldn't disagree more.

我不能苟同

The other thing that we believe is that art shouldn't explain itself,

其二，藝術不應該不證自明

that artists shouldn't say what they're up to,

藝術家不應該讓人知道他想表達甚麼

because if they said it, it might destroy the spell

因為，一旦說穿，藝術品就可能失去它的魅力

and we might find it too easy.

讓人覺得不過爾爾

That's why a very common feeling when you're in a museum --

逛美術館時，你常有這種感覺

let's admit it --

承認吧

is, "I don't know what this is about."

你常想「我不知道它想說的是甚麼」

But if we're serious people, we don't admit to that.

嚴肅認真的人都不願意承認

But that feeling of puzzlement is structural

在當代藝術世界裡，這種困惑是

to contemporary art.

人人共享的

Now religions have a much saner attitude to art.

宗教在這方面比較清醒

They have no trouble telling us what art is about.

挑明題旨，毫不扭捏

Art is about two things in all the major faiths.

在主要宗教的觀念裡，藝術有兩樣功能

Firstly, it's trying to remind you

首先，它要提醒你

of what there is to love.

世上有何該愛

And secondly, it's trying to remind you

其二，它要提醒你

of what there is to fear and to hate.

世上有何該懼該厭

And that's what art is.

藝術便是如此

Art is a visceral encounter with the most important ideas of your faith.

藝術讓人以視覺接觸信仰

So as you walk around a church,

在你逛會堂

or a mosque or a cathedral,

或清真寺，或大教堂之時

what you're trying to imbibe, what you're imbibing is,

你正透過雙眼

through your eyes, through your senses,

逐漸吸收

truths that have otherwise come to you through your mind.

平時在學習的教義

Essentially it's propaganda.

本質上，這是一種鼓吹

Rembrandt is a propagandist

在宗教的角度來說

in the Christian view.

林布蘭會是一名宣傳人員

Now the word "propaganda" sets off alarm bells.

如今，我們每逢提及「鼓吹」都會惹人警覺

We think of Hitler, we think of Stalin. Don't, necessarily.

我們會聯想起希特拉和斯大林。但，這是不必要的

Propaganda is a manner of being didactic in honor of something.

這只是一種宣揚理念的手法

And if that thing is good, there's no problem with it at all.

如果理念是好的，這手法本身沒有問題

My view is that museums should take a leaf out of the book of religions.

我認為美術館該向宗教學習

And they should make sure that when you walk into a museum --

館長們應該確保當參觀者進入時──

if I was a museum curator,

假設我是一名導遊

I would make a room for love, a room for generosity.

我會設立以「愛」，或「慷慨」為主題的展覽廳

All works of art are talking to us about things.

把所有主題一致的藝術品放在一起

And if we were able to arrange spaces

如果空間充裕

where we could come across works

在我們觀賞藝術品的同時

where we would be told, use these works of art

我們可以同時獲知它的意義為何，並用它們

to cement these ideas in your mind,

完滿我們對該主題的理解

we would get a lot more out of art.

我們將會獲益良多

Art would pick up the duty that it used to have

藝術將重新負起

and that we've neglected because of certain mis-founded ideas.

那個曾一度因被誤導而被摒棄的責任

Art should be one of the tools

藝術應該是一個

by which we improve our society.

改善社會的工具

Art should be didactic.

藝術應該具有教化作用

Let's think of something else.

讓我們再想多一點別的

The people in the modern world, in the secular world,

在去宗教化的世界裡，有些人

who are interested in matters of the spirit,

熱衷於精神追求

in matters of the mind,

熱衷於各種思想

in higher soul-like concerns,

熱衷於修養性靈

tend to be isolated individuals.

他們通常是孤身上路

They're poets, they're philosophers, they're photographers, they're filmmakers.

他們寫詩，鑽研哲學，攝影，拍戲

And they tend to be on their own.

他們傾向獨立行動

They're our cottage industries. They are vulnerable, single people.

他們像小型工作坊，不牢固，獨立於彼此

And they get depressed and they get sad on their own.

他們獨自神傷

And they don't really change much.

又無法真正甚麼改變

Now think about religions, think about organized religions.

相比之下，宗教非常團結

What do organized religions do?

團結何益？

They group together, they form institutions.

教徒走在一起，組成組織

And that has all sorts of advantages.

有很多好處

First of all, scale, might.

首先，規模和力量

The Catholic Church pulled in 97 billion dollars last year

華爾街日報說

according to the Wall Street Journal.

天主教教會去年籌得97億元

These are massive machines.

都是些龐大的架構

They're collaborative, they're branded, they're multinational,

他們同心合力，出師有名，跨越國界

and they're highly disciplined.

組織內高度紀律

These are all very good qualities.

質素良好

We recognize them in relation to corporations.

就像大企業一樣

And corporations are very like religions in many ways,

大企業與宗教團體有許多共通點

except they're right down at the bottom of the pyramid of needs.

唯一分別在於企業所供給的，是位於需求金字塔最底層的物質

They're selling us shoes and cars.

企業向人兜售鞋履和汽車

Whereas the people who are selling us the higher stuff --

而那些滿足我們較高層次需求的人，包括

the therapists, the poets --

心理治療師，詩人等等

are on their own and they have no power,

個個獨自行事，並不強大

they have no might.

他們力量很有限

So religions are the foremost example

宗教團體是一個上佳的例子

of an institution that is fighting for the things of the mind.

說明人類可以如何組織起來對抗世界潮流

Now we may not agree with what religions are trying to teach us,

即使我們不認同宗教的內容

but we can admire the institutional way

但我們可以欣賞他們如何組織起來

in which they're doing it.

宣揚教義

Books alone, books written by lone individuals,

那些彼此獨立的作家們所寫的

are not going to change anything.

無法改變甚麼

We need to group together.

我們必須組織起來

If you want to change the world, you have to group together, you have to be collaborative.

如果你想改變世界，你必須組織起來，與人合作

And that's what religions do.

這正是宗教團體的做法

They are multinational, as I say,

正如我所說，宗教團體是跨國的

they are branded, they have a clear identity,

他們出師有名，有明確的定位

so they don't get lost in a busy world.

不會在繁雜的世界迷失

That's something we can learn from.

這是值得借鏡的地方

I want to conclude.

我想總結

Really what I want to say

我想說的是

is for many of you who are operating in a range of different fields,

在座來自各行各業的觀眾們

there is something to learn from the example of religion --

宗教裡有值得借鑑的地方

even if you don't believe any of it.

即使你不信教

If you're involved in anything that's communal,

假如你活在群體裡

that involves lots of people getting together,

一個包括許多人的群體裡

there are things for you in religion.

那麼宗教裡有值得參考的例子

If you're involved, say, in a travel industry in any way,

比方說，你在旅遊業工作

look at pilgrimage.

你可以參考一下「朝聖」這回事

Look very closely at pilgrimage.

如果你認真想想

We haven't begun to scratch the surface

我們幾乎完全沒想過

of what travel could be

「朝聖」對旅遊業

because we haven't looked at what religions do with travel.

可以有甚麼啟示

If you're in the art world,

如果你是藝術工作者

look at the example of what religions are doing with art.

想想看，宗教如何處理藝術

And if you're an educator in any way,

如果你在教育界

again, look at how religions are spreading ideas.

想想看，宗教如何教化人

You may not agree with the ideas,

也許你不認同宗教的做法

but my goodness, they're highly effective mechanisms for doing so.

但是，天啊，宗教的一套實在是太有效了

So really my concluding point

所以，我的結論是

is you may not agree with religion,

即使你不認同宗教

but at the end of the day,

可是，宗教的內容確是

religions are so subtle, so complicated,

很精妙複雜

so intelligent in many ways

而且相當有智慧的

that they're not fit to be abandoned to the religious alone;

不應全盤否定

they're for all of us.

人人皆可從中受益

Thank you very much.

謝謝

(Applause)

（掌聲）

Chris Anderson: Now this is actually a courageous talk,

基斯．安迪臣：這真是一個很勇敢的演說

because you're kind of setting up yourself in some ways

因為這樣說，你讓自己

to be ridiculed in some quarters.

很容易被人挑剔

AB: You can get shot by both sides.

迪布頓：腹背受敵

You can get shot by the hard-headed atheists,

頑固的無神論者批評你

and you can get shot by those who fully believe.

虔誠教徒也會批評你

CA: Incoming missiles from North Oxford at any moment.

安迪臣：隨時有導彈從牛津北部向你發射

AB: Indeed.

迪布頓：的確如此

CA: But you left out one aspect of religion

安迪臣：你似乎說漏了宗教中的一環

that a lot of people might say

許多人會說

your agenda could borrow from,

你所提倡的

which is this sense --

有個說法是

that's actually probably the most important thing to anyone who's religious --

其實教徒從宗教中獲得最最重要的

of spiritual experience,

屬靈體驗

of some kind of connection

是某種關連

with something that's bigger than you are.

連接教徒，和一個比他更偉大的存在

Is there any room for that experience in Atheism 2.0?

無神論2.0中，有沒有類似的體驗？

AB: Absolutely. I, like many of you, meet people

迪布頓：當然，我也認識不少人

who say things like, "But isn't there something bigger than us,

說「難道世上沒有比我們

something else?"

人類更偉大的存在嗎？」

And I say, "Of course." And they say, "So aren't you sort of religious?"

我說「當然有的」。然後他們說，「那你就是認同宗教囉？」

And I go, "No." Why does that sense of mystery,

我接著說「不是的」。為甚麼這種奇異感動

that sense of the dizzying scale of the universe,

被宇宙的偉大所觸動

need to be accompanied by a mystical feeling?

不得不與神怪扯上關係？

Science and just observation

科學和精準的觀察

gives us that feeling without it,

也可以在不談神怪的情況下，觸動人

so I don't feel the need.

我不認為有這個必要

The universe is large and we are tiny,

宇宙浩瀚，而人類渺小

without the need for further religious superstructure.

這不需要宗教的超自然學說

So one can have so-called spiritual moments

在不相信神怪的前提下

without belief in the spirit.

也能有「屬靈體驗」

CA: Actually, let me just ask a question.

安迪臣：讓我問一個問題

How many people here would say

在場各位有誰認為

that religion is important to them?

對他而言，宗教是不可或缺的？

Is there an equivalent process

到底有沒有一個類似的說法

by which there's a sort of bridge

可以讓他們從另一個方向理解

between what you're talking about and what you would say to them?

理解你剛才所說的？

AB: I would say that there are many, many gaps in secular life

迪布頓：我認為無神論的世界的而且確是千瘡百孔，充滿缺口的

and these can be plugged.

這些缺口可用宗教填滿

It's not as though, as I try to suggest,

這並不是說

it's not as though either you have religion

要麼你選擇宗教

and then you have to accept all sorts of things,

同時選擇它的全部

or you don't have religion

要麼你摒棄宗教

and then you're cut off from all these very good things.

同時拒絕一切可取之處

It's so sad that we constantly say,

我們常聽說：「我不信教

"I don't believe so I can't have community,

於是我沒有社群

so I'm cut off from morality,

於是我脫離道德價值

so I can't go on a pilgrimage."

於是我便不能踏上朝聖之路。」這樣很可憐

One wants to say, "Nonsense. Why not?"

有人會問：「無聊。為甚麼不？」

And that's really the spirit of my talk.

這正正是我演說的中心思想

There's so much we can absorb.

宗教有太多可取之處

Atheism shouldn't cut itself off from the rich sources of religion.

無神論不應該拒絕宗教裡豐富的內涵

CA: It seems to me that there's plenty of people in the TED community

安迪臣：在TED群體中，似乎有頗多人

who are atheists.

是無神論者

But probably most people in the community

也許大部份人認為

certainly don't think that religion is going away any time soon

短時間內，宗教是不可能消失的

and want to find the language

他們想找到合適的語言

to have a constructive dialogue

作有建設性的對話

and to feel like we can actually talk to each other

讓人感到彼此之間的確可以溝通

and at least share some things in common.

或者最少有些共同點

Are we foolish to be optimistic

這樣想是否太傻太樂觀呢？

about the possibility of a world

這世界是否可以

where, instead of religion being the great rallying cry

不讓有神無神之爭

of divide and war,

分裂世界

that there could be bridging?

我們是否有彼此溝通了解的可能性呢？

AB: No, we need to be polite about differences.

迪布頓：這想法不傻。只要我們懂得和而不同。

Politeness is a much-overlooked virtue.

我們經常忘記禮儀

It's seen as hypocrisy.

它聽起來太虛偽

But we need to get to a stage when you're an atheist

但到某時候，一個教徒會對你說

and someone says, "Well you know, I did pray the other day,"

「你知道，我那天有祈禱」

you politely ignore it.

而你禮貌地無視之

You move on.

該幹嘛幹嘛去

Because you've agreed on 90 percent of things,

因為你們兩個能認同九成以上的事物

because you have a shared view on so many things,

你們的世界觀有許多相通之處

and you politely differ.

故能達致和而不同

And I think that's what the religious wars of late have ignored.

我認為近代的有神無神之爭，忽略了這一點

They've ignored the possibility of harmonious disagreement.

大家忘了其實彼此是可以和而不同的

CA: And finally, does this new thing that you're proposing

安迪臣：最後，你提倡的無神論2.0

that's not a religion but something else,

本身並非一個宗教

does it need a leader,

但它需要一個領袖嗎

and are you volunteering to be the pope?

而你是否願意當無神論者的教宗？

(Laughter)

（笑聲）

AB: Well, one thing that we're all very suspicious of

迪布頓：唔，我們對個人領袖

is individual leaders.

非常警剔

It doesn't need it.

無神論不需要領袖

What I've tried to lay out is a framework

我剛才所言，只是一個理論框架

and I'm hoping that people can just fill it in.

我希望大家可以自由發揮，付諸實行

I've sketched a sort of broad framework.

我只是勾勒出一個大概的結構

But wherever you are, as I say, if you're in the travel industry, do that travel bit.

但不論你是誰，比如說你是旅遊業者，就做旅遊那一塊

If you're in the communal industry, look at religion and do the communal bit.

如果你活在社群裡，做社群的工作

So it's a wiki project.

這其實是個維基百科

(Laughter)

（笑聲）

CA: Alain, thank you for sparking many conversations later.

安迪臣：雅倫，謝謝你精彩的演說

(Applause)

（鼓掌）