Capitalism will eat democracy -- unless we speak up | Yanis Varoufakis

Prevodilac: Milenka Okuka Lektor: Mile Živković

Democracy.

Demokratija.

In the West,

Na Zapadu

we make a colossal mistake taking it for granted.

pravimo kolosalnu grešku uzimajući je zdravo za gotovo.

We see democracy

Vidimo demokratiju

not as the most fragile of flowers that it really is,

ne kao najkrhkiji cvet, što uistinu jeste,

but we see it as part of our society's furniture.

već je vidimo kao deo društvenog nameštaja.

We tend to think of it as an intransigent given.

Imamo naviku da mislimo o njoj kao o beskompromisnoj datosti.

We mistakenly believe that capitalism begets inevitably democracy.

U zabludi smo da kapitalizam neizbežno stvara demokratiju.

It doesn't.

Ne stvara.

Singapore's Lee Kuan Yew and his great imitators in Beijing

Li Kvan Ju iz Singapura i njegovi veliki podražavaoci iz Pekinga

have demonstrated beyond reasonable doubt

su protestovali van razumne sumnje

that it is perfectly possible to have a flourishing capitalism,

da je savršeno moguće imati procvat kapitalizma,

spectacular growth,

spektakularan rast,

while politics remains democracy-free.

a da politika bude bez demokratije.

Indeed, democracy is receding in our neck of the woods,

Uistinu, demokratija je u opadanju u našem kutku sveta,

here in Europe.

ovde u Evropi.

Earlier this year, while I was representing Greece --

Ranije ove godine, dok sam predstavljao Grčku -

the newly elected Greek government --

novoizabranu grčku vladu -

in the Eurogroup as its Finance Minister,

u Evrogrupi kao njen ministar finansija,

I was told in no uncertain terms that our nation's democratic process --

nedvosmisleno mi je saopšteno da demokratski procesi naše nacije -

our elections --

naši izbori -

could not be allowed to interfere

ne bi smeli da se mešaju

with economic policies that were being implemented in Greece.

u ekonomsku politiku koja se primenjuje u Grčkoj.

At that moment,

U tom trenutku

I felt that there could be no greater vindication of Lee Kuan Yew,

sam osećao da nema boljeg opravdanja za Li Kvana Jua

or the Chinese Communist Party,

ili za Kinesku komunističku partiju,

indeed of some recalcitrant friends of mine who kept telling me

i zaista za neke moje neposlušne prjatelje koji mi stalno govore

that democracy would be banned if it ever threatened to change anything.

da će da zabrane demokratiju čim postane pretnja bilo kakvim promenama.

Tonight, here, I want to present to you

Večeras vam ovde želim predstaviti

an economic case for an authentic democracy.

ekonomski argument za autentičnu demokratiju.

I want to ask you to join me in believing again

Želim da zatražim od vas da mi se pridružite u ponovnoj veri

that Lee Kuan Yew,

da Li Kvan Ju,

the Chinese Communist Party

Kineska komunistička partija

and indeed the Eurogroup

kao i Evrogrupa

are wrong in believing that we can dispense with democracy --

greše u ubeđenju da možemo bez demokratije -

that we need an authentic, boisterous democracy.

i da nam je potrebna autentična, žestoka demokratija.

And without democracy,

A bez demokratije,

our societies will be nastier,

naša društva bi bila gnusnija,

our future bleak

naša budućnost mračna

and our great, new technologies wasted.

a naša sjajna, nova tehnologija bi bila protraćena.

Speaking of waste,

Govoreći o traćenju,

allow me to point out an interesting paradox

dozvolite da ukažem na jedan zanimljiv paradoks

that is threatening our economies as we speak.

koji trenutno preti našim ekonomijama.

I call it the twin peaks paradox.

Zovem ga paradoksom blizanačkih vrhova.

One peak you understand --

Jedan vrh razumete -

you know it, you recognize it --

poznat vam je, prepoznajete ga -

is the mountain of debts that has been casting a long shadow

to je planina dugova koja baca veliku senku

over the United States, Europe, the whole world.

preko Sjedinjenih Država, Evrope, čitavog sveta.

We all recognize the mountain of debts.

Svima nam je poznata planina dugova.

But few people discern its twin.

Ali nekolicina raspoznaje njenu bliznakinju.

A mountain of idle cash

Planinu ležećeg novca

belonging to rich savers and to corporations,

koja pripada bogatim štedišama i korporacijama,

too terrified to invest it

koji su suviše uplašeni da ga ulože

into the productive activities that can generate the incomes

u produktivne delatnosti koje bi proizvodile dobiti

from which you can extinguish the mountain of debts

kojima biste mogli da eliminišete planinu duga

and which can produce all those things that humanity desperately needs,

i koji bi mogli da proizvedu sve ono što je čovečanstvu očajnički potrebno,

like green energy.

poput ekološke energije.

Now let me give you two numbers.

Sada mi dozvolite da vam ponudim dva broja.

Over the last three months,

U protekla tri meseca

in the United States, in Britain and in the Eurozone,

u Sjedinjenim Državama, Britaniji i Evrozoni

we have invested, collectively, 3.4 trillion dollars

smo uložili, sveukupno, 3,4 biliona dolara

on all the wealth-producing goods --

na sve tekovine za proizvodnju bogatstva -

things like industrial plants, machinery,

stvari poput industrijskog bilja, mašina,

office blocks, schools,

kancelarija, škola,

roads, railways, machinery, and so on and so forth.

puteva, železnica, mašina i tako dalje.

$3.4 trillion sounds like a lot of money

3,4 biliona zvuči kao mnogo novca,

until you compare it to the $5.1 trillion

sve dok ga uporedite sa 5,1 biliona dolara

that has been slushing around in the same countries,

koji se prebacuju okolo u istim tim državama,

in our financial institutions,

u našim finansijskim institucijama,

doing absolutely nothing during the same period

sve to vreme ne radeći ništa,

except inflating stock exchanges and bidding up house prices.

osim što dovodi do inflacije na našim berzama i uvećava cene nekretnina.

So a mountain of debt and a mountain of idle cash

Dakle, planina duga i planina ležećeg novca

form twin peaks, failing to cancel each other out

formiraju blizanačke vrhove koji ne uspevaju da se ponište

through the normal operation of the markets.

kroz normalan rad tržišta.

The result is stagnant wages,

Rezultat toga je stagnacija plata,

more than a quarter of 25- to 54-year-olds in America, in Japan and in Europe

više od četvrtine onih od 25 do 54 godine u Americi, Japanu i Evropi

out of work.

su bez posla.

And consequently, low aggregate demand,

I posledično, niska ukupna potražnja

which in a never-ending cycle,

koja u beskrajnom ciklusu,

reinforces the pessimism of the investors,

učvršćuje pesimizam investitora,

who, fearing low demand, reproduce it by not investing --

koji iz straha od niske potražnje ne investiraju i tako stvaraju istu -

exactly like Oedipus' father,

baš poput Edipovog oca,

who, terrified by the prophecy of the oracle

koji, preplašen proročanstvom iz proročišta

that his son would grow up to kill him,

da će ga njegov odrasli sin ubiti,

unwittingly engineered the conditions

nenamerno stvara uslove

that ensured that Oedipus, his son, would kill him.

koji će obezbediti da ga ubije njegov sin Edip.

This is my quarrel with capitalism.

Ovo je moje neslaganje s kapitalizmom.

Its gross wastefulness,

Njegova sveukupna protraćenost,

all this idle cash,

sav taj ležeći novac

should be energized to improve lives,

bi trebalo da bude podstaknut da unapređuje živote,

to develop human talents,

da razvija ljudske talente

and indeed to finance all these technologies,

i zaista da finansira svu ovu tehnologiju,

green technologies,

ekološku tehnologiju,

which are absolutely essential for saving planet Earth.

sve to je apsolutno ključno za spas planete Zemlje.

Am I right in believing that democracy might be the answer?

Jesam li u pravu što verujem da bi demokratija mogla da bude rešenje?

I believe so,

Verujem da da,

but before we move on,

no pre nego što nastavimo,

what do we mean by democracy?

šta podrazumevamo pod demokratijom?

Aristotle defined democracy

Aristotel je definisao demokratiju

as the constitution in which the free and the poor,

kao uređenje u kome slobodni i siromašni

being in the majority, control government.

kao većina upravljaju vladom.

Now, of course Athenian democracy excluded too many.

Sad, naravno atinska demokratija je izuzimala mnoge.

Women, migrants and, of course, the slaves.

Žene, migrante i naravno robove.

But it would be a mistake

Međutim, bila bi greška

to dismiss the significance of ancient Athenian democracy

odbaciti značaj antičke atinske demokratije

on the basis of whom it excluded.

na osnovu toga koga je isključivala.

What was more pertinent,

Ono što je bilo značajnije,

and continues to be so about ancient Athenian democracy,

i danas je tako, kod atinske demokratije

was the inclusion of the working poor,

to je uključenje siromašnih radnika,

who not only acquired the right to free speech,

koji ne samo da su stekli pravo na slobodu govora,

but more importantly, crucially,

već značajnije, krucijalnije,

they acquired the rights to political judgments

stekli su pravo na političke sudove

that were afforded equal weight

koji su im obezbeđivali jednaku težinu

in the decision-making concerning matters of state.

u donošenju odluka koje se tiču državnih pitanja.

Now, of course, Athenian democracy didn't last long.

Sad, naravno, atinska demokratija nije dugo trajala.

Like a candle that burns brightly, it burned out quickly.

Poput sveće koja jarko svetli, brzo je sagorela.

And indeed,

I zaista

our liberal democracies today do not have their roots in ancient Athens.

naše današnje liberalne demokratije nemaju korene u antičkoj Atini.

They have their roots in the Magna Carta,

Njihovi koreni su u Velikoj povelji,

in the 1688 Glorious Revolution,

u Slavnoj revoluciji iz 1688,

indeed in the American constitution.

kao i u američkom ustavu.

Whereas Athenian democracy was focusing on the masterless citizen

Dok se atinska demokratija usredsređivala na slobodnog građanina

and empowering the working poor,

i na jačanje siromašnih radnika,

our liberal democracies are founded on the Magna Carta tradition,

naše liberalne demokratije su zasnovane na tradiciji Velike povelje,

which was, after all, a charter for masters.

koja je, sve u svemu, bila povelja za gospodare.

And indeed, liberal democracy only surfaced when it was possible

I, uistinu, liberalna demokratija je tek isplivala s mogućnošću

to separate fully the political sphere from the economic sphere,

potpunog razdvajanja političke i ekonomske sfere,

so as to confine the democratic process fully in the political sphere,

kako bi se demokratski procesi ograničili u potpunosti na političku sferu,

leaving the economic sphere --

ostavljajući ekonomsku sferu -

the corporate world, if you want --

korporativni svet, ako hoćete -

as a democracy-free zone.

kao prostor oslobođen demokratije.

Now, in our democracies today,

Sad, u našim današnjim demokratijama

this separation of the economic from the political sphere,

ova razdvojenost ekonomske od političke sfere,

the moment it started happening,

u trenutku kad se počela dešavati

it gave rise to an inexorable, epic struggle between the two,

dovela je do neumoljive, epske borbe između njih,

with the economic sphere colonizing the political sphere,

pri čemu je ekonomska sfera kolonizovala političku sferu,

eating into its power.

nagrizavši njenu moć.

Have you wondered why politicians are not what they used to be?

Jeste li se ikad zapitali zašto političari nisu što su nekad bili?

It's not because their DNA has degenerated.

To nije zbog degeneracije njihovog DNK.

(Laughter)

(Smeh)

It is rather because one can be in government today and not in power,

Već zato što danas pojedinac može da bude u vladi, ali ne na vlasti

because power has migrated from the political to the economic sphere,

jer je vlast prešla iz političke u ekonomsku sferu,

which is separate.

koja je oodvojena.

Indeed,

Zaista,

I spoke about my quarrel with capitalism.

govorio sam o mom neslaganju s kapitalizmom.

If you think about it,

Ako razmislite o tome,

it is a little bit like a population of predators,

on je nalik na populaciju grabljivica,

that are so successful in decimating the prey that they must feed on,

koje su toliko uspešne u desetkovanju plena kojim se hrane

that in the end they starve.

da na kraju umiru od gladi.

Similarly,

Slično,

the economic sphere has been colonizing and cannibalizing the political sphere

ekonomska sfera je kolonizovala i kanibalizovala političku sferu

to such an extent that it is undermining itself,

do te mere da je počela da podriva samu sebe,

causing economic crisis.

uzrokujući ekonomske krize.

Corporate power is increasing,

Korporativna moć raste,

political goods are devaluing,

politička dobra gube vrednost,

inequality is rising,

nejednakost je u usponu,

aggregate demand is falling

ukupna potražnja je u padu,

and CEOs of corporations are too scared to invest the cash of their corporations.

a izvršni direktori korporacija

su isuviše uplašeni da ulažu novac svojih korporacija.

So the more capitalism succeeds in taking the demos out of democracy,

Pa, što je kapitalizam uspešniji u uklanjanju demosa iz demokratije,

the taller the twin peaks

to su blizanački vrhovi viši

and the greater the waste of human resources

i sve se više traće ljudski resursi

and humanity's wealth.

i ljudsko bogatstvo.

Clearly, if this is right,

Očito, ako je ovo tačno,

we must reunite the political and economic spheres

moramo da ponovo ujedinimo političke i ekonomske sfere

and better do it with a demos being in control,

i bolje da to učinimo s narodom na vlasti.

like in ancient Athens except without the slaves

Kao u antičkoj Atini, samo bez robova

or the exclusion of women and migrants.

ili isključivanja žena i migranata.

Now, this is not an original idea.

Sad, ovo nije originalna zamisao.

The Marxist left had that idea 100 years ago

Marksistički levičari su imali ovu zamisao pre 100 godina

and it didn't go very well, did it?

i nisu se baš proslavili, zar ne?

The lesson that we learned from the Soviet debacle

Lekcija koju smo naučili iz sovjetskog debakla

is that only by a miracle will the working poor be reempowered,

je da će samo uz pomoć čuda siromašni radnici biti ponovo osnaženi,

as they were in ancient Athens,

kao što su bili u antičkoj Atini,

without creating new forms of brutality and waste.

bez stvaranja novih oblika brutalnosti i traćenja.

But there is a solution:

Međutim, postoji rešenje:

eliminate the working poor.

uklonite siromašne radnike.

Capitalism's doing it

Kapitalizam to radi,

by replacing low-wage workers with automata, androids, robots.

zamenjujući loše plaćene radnike automatima, androidima, robotima.

The problem is

Problem je

that as long as the economic and the political spheres are separate,

da dok su god ekonomska i politička sfera razdvojene,

automation makes the twin peaks taller,

automatizacija povećava blizanačke vrhove,

the waste loftier

traćenje je blagorodnije,

and the social conflicts deeper,

a društveni konflikti dublji,

including --

uključujući -

soon, I believe --

verujem uskoro -

in places like China.

na mestima poput Kine.

So we need to reconfigure,

Zato moramo da rekonfigurišemo,

we need to reunite the economic and the political spheres,

moramo da ponovo ujedninimo ekonomske i političke sfere,

but we'd better do it by democratizing the reunified sphere,

ali bolje da to učinimo demokratizacijom nanovo ujedinjenih sfera,

lest we end up with a surveillance-mad hyperautocracy

inače ćemo da završimo u hiperautokratiji opsednutoj nadzorom

that makes The Matrix, the movie, look like a documentary.

zbog koje film "Matriks" izgleda poput dokumentarca.

(Laughter)

(Smeh)

So the question is not whether capitalism will survive

Zato nije u pitanju to da li će kapitalizam preživeti

the technological innovations it is spawning.

tehnološke inovacije koje stvara.

The more interesting question

Zanimljivije je pitanje

is whether capitalism will be succeeded by something resembling a Matrix dystopia

da li će kapitalizam naslediti nešto što liči na distopiju iz "Matriksa"

or something much closer to a Star Trek-like society,

ili nešto što je bliže društvu iz "Zvezdanih staza",

where machines serve the humans

gde su mašine u službi ljudi,

and the humans expend their energies exploring the universe

a ljudi troše svoju energiju u istraživanje univerzuma

and indulging in long debates about the meaning of life

i u upuštanju u duge rasprave o smislu života

in some ancient, Athenian-like, high tech agora.

u nekakvoj antičkoj, nalik atinskoj, visoko tehnološkoj agori.

I think we can afford to be optimistic.

Mislim da možemo sebi priuštiti optimizam.

But what would it take,

Ali šta bi nas koštalo,

what would it look like

kako bi izgledalo

to have this Star Trek-like utopia, instead of the Matrix-like dystopia?

da imamo ovu utopiju iz "Zvezdanih staza" umesto distopije iz "Matriksa"?

In practical terms,

Prostim rečima,

allow me to share just briefly,

dozvolite da podelim s vama sažeto

a couple of examples.

nekoliko primera.

At the level of the enterprise,

Zamislite glavno tržište na nivou preduzeća,

imagine a capital market,

where you earn capital as you work,

gde možete da steknete kapital dok radite,

and where your capital follows you from one job to another,

i gde vas vaš kapital prati s jednog posla na drugi,

from one company to another,

od jedne do druge firme,

and the company --

a firma -

whichever one you happen to work at at that time --

u kojoj god da radite u tom trenutku -

is solely owned by those who happen to work in it at that moment.

je u potpunosti u posedu onih koji u tom trenutku rade u njoj.

Then all income stems from capital, from profits,

Tako sav prihod proizilazi iz kapitala, iz profita,

and the very concept of wage labor becomes obsolete.

a sam koncept plaćenog rada postaje prevaziđen.

No more separation between those who own but do not work in the company

Nema više razdvajanja između onih koji poseduju firmu, ali ne rade u njoj

and those who work but do not own the company;

i onih koji rade, ali ne poseduju firmu;

no more tug-of-war between capital and labor;

nema više rastrgnutosti između kapitala i rada;

no great gap between investment and saving;

nema velikog jaza između investicije i štednje;

indeed, no towering twin peaks.

uistinu, nema više gomilanja blizanačkih vrhova.

At the level of the global political economy,

Na nivou globalne političke ekonomije,

imagine for a moment

zamislite na trenutak

that our national currencies have a free-floating exchange rate,

da naše nacionalne monete imaju slobodno-plutajuću stopu razmene,

with a universal, global, digital currency,

sa univerzalnom, globalnom, digitalnom monetom,

one that is issued by the International Monetary Fund,

koju bi izdavali Međunarodni monetarni fond,

the G-20,

G-20,

on behalf of all humanity.

u ime celokupnog čovečanstva.

And imagine further

Zamislite još

that all international trade is denominated in this currency --

da je sva međunarodna trgovina izražena u ovoj moneti -

let's call it "the cosmos,"

nazovimo je "kosmos",

in units of cosmos --

u jedinicama kosmosa -

with every government agreeing to be paying into a common fund

uz dogovor svih vlada da će uplaćivati u zajednički fond

a sum of cosmos units proportional to the country's trade deficit,

sumu kosmičkih jedinica proporcionalnu trgovinskom deficitu te zemlje

or indeed to a country's trade surplus.

ili, zapravo, trgovinskom višku te zemlje.

And imagine that that fund is utilized to invest in green technologies,

I zamislite da se taj fond koristi za ulaganje u ekološke tehnologije,

especially in parts of the world where investment funding is scarce.

naročito u delovima sveta gde su investicioni fondovi oskudni.

This is not a new idea.

Ovo nije nova zamisao.

It's what, effectively, John Maynard Keynes proposed

To je u suštini nešto što je Džon Majnard Kejns predložio

in 1944 at the Bretton Woods Conference.

1944. nakonferenciji Breton Vuds.

The problem is

Problem je

that back then, they didn't have the technology to implement it.

da tada nisu imali tehnologiju da bi ovo primenili.

Now we do,

Sada imamo,

especially in the context of a reunified political-economic sphere.

naročito u kontekstu ponovnog ujedinjenja političko-ekonomske sfere.

The world that I am describing to you

Svet koji vam opisujem

is simultaneously libertarian,

je istovremeno libertarijanski,

in that it prioritizes empowered individuals,

u smislu da mu je prioritet osnaživanje pojedinaca,

Marxist,

marksistički,

since it will have confined to the dustbin of history

pošto bi poslao na đubrište istorije

the division between capital and labor,

podelu između kapitala i rada

and Keynesian,

i kejnsijanistički,

global Keynesian.

globalni kejnsijanizam.

But above all else,

Ali iznad svega

it is a world in which we will be able to imagine an authentic democracy.

to je svet u kome bismo bili u stanju da zamislimo autentičnu demokratiju.

Will such a world dawn?

Hoće li takav svet da se začne?

Or shall we descend into a Matrix-like dystopia?

Ili ćemo da skliznemo u distopiju nalik Matriksu?

The answer lies in the political choice that we shall be making collectively.

Odgovor leži u političkom izboru koji ćemo kolektivno da napravimo.

It is our choice,

Izbor je na nama

and we'd better make it democratically.

i bolje bi nam bilo da ga napravimo demokratski.

Thank you.

Hvala vam.

(Applause)

(Aplauz)

Bruno Giussani: Yanis ...

Bruno Đuzani: Janise...

It was you who described yourself in your bios as a libertarian Marxist.

ti si sebe u biografiji opisao kao libertarijanskog marksistu.

What is the relevance of Marx's analysis today?

Koji je značaj Marksove analize danas?

Yanis Varoufakis: Well, if there was any relevance in what I just said,

Janis Varufakis: Pa, ako je iole značajno ono što sam upravo ispričao,

then Marx is relevant.

onda je Marks značajan.

Because the whole point of reunifying the political and economic is --

Jer je čitava svrha ponovnog ujedinjenja politike i ekonomije -

if we don't do it,

ako to ne uradimo,

then technological innovation is going to create

onda će tehnološke inovacije stvoriti

such a massive fall in aggregate demand,

tako velik pad u sveukupnoj potražnji,

what Larry Summers refers to as secular stagnation.

nešto što Leri Samers označava kao sekularnu stagnaciju.

With this crisis migrating from one part of the world,

Uz migraciju ove krize iz jednog dela sveta u drugi,

as it is now,

kao što imamo danas,

it will destabilize not only our democracies,

to će destabilizovati, ne samo naše demokratije,

but even the emerging world that is not that keen on liberal democracy.

već čak i svet u razvoju koji nije toliko naklonjen liberalnoj demokratiji.

So if this analysis holds water, then Marx is absolutely relevant.

Pa, ako ova analiza pije vodu, onda je Marks apsolutno relevantan.

But so is Hayek,

Ali je i Hajek,

that's why I'm a libertarian Marxist,

zato sam ja libertarijanski marksista,

and so is Keynes,

kao što je i Kejns,

so that's why I'm totally confused.

eto zašto sam potpuno zbunjen.

(Laughter)

(Smeh)

BG: Indeed, and possibly we are too, now.

BĐ: Uistinu, a verovatno smo sad i mi.

(Laughter)

(Smeh)

(Applause)

(Aplauz)

YV: If you are not confused, you are not thinking, OK?

JV: Ako niste zbunjeni, ne razmišljate, u redu?

BG: That's a very, very Greek philosopher kind of thing to say --

BĐ: To baš zvuči kao nešto što bi rekli grčki filozofi -

YV: That was Einstein, actually --

JV: Ovo je zapravo rekao Ajnštajn -

BG: During your talk you mentioned Singapore and China,

BĐ: Tokom svog govora, pomenuo si Singapur i Kinu,

and last night at the speaker dinner,

a sinoć na večeri za govornike,

you expressed a pretty strong opinion about how the West looks at China.

izrazio si veoma snažan stav o tome kako Zapad gleda na Kinu.

Would you like to share that?

Da li bi želeo da podeliš taj stav?

YV: Well, there's a great degree of hypocrisy.

JV: Pa, radi se o velikom stepenu licemerja.

In our liberal democracies, we have a semblance of democracy.

U našim liberalnim demokratijama imamo naličje demokratije.

It's because we have confined, as I was saying in my talk,

To je zato što smo ograničili, kao što sam rekao u govoru,

democracy to the political sphere,

demokratiju na političku sferu,

while leaving the one sphere where all the action is --

dok smo ostavili jednu sferu u kojoj se sve događa -

the economic sphere --

ekonomsku sferu -

a completely democracy-free zone.

u potpunosti lišenu demokratije.

In a sense,

U smislu,

if I am allowed to be provocative,

ako mi dozvoljavate da budem provokativan,

China today is closer to Britain in the 19th century.

da je današnja Kina bliža Britaniji iz 19. veka.

Because remember,

Jer upamtite,

we tend to associate liberalism with democracy --

često poistovećujemo liberalizam s demokratijom -

that's a mistake, historically.

to je istorijska greška.

Liberalism, liberal, it's like John Stuart Mill.

Liberalizam, liberalnost, to je poput Džona Stjuarta Mila.

John Stuart Mill was particularly skeptical about the democratic process.

Džon Stjuart Mil je bio naročito sumnjičav po pitanju demokratskih procesa.

So what you are seeing now in China is a very similar process

Ono što trenutno gledate u Kini je veoma sličan proces

to the one that we had in Britain during the Industrial Revolution,

onome koji smo imali u Britaniji tokom Industrijske revolucije,

especially the transition from the first to the second.

naročito prelaz iz prve u drugu.

And to be castigating China

A kritikovati Kinu

for doing that which the West did in the 19th century,

zato što radi ono što je Zapad radio u 19. veku

smacks of hypocrisy.

ima šmek licemerstva.

BG: I am sure that many people here are wondering about your experience

BĐ: Siguran sam da se mnogi ovde pitaju o tvom iskustvu

as the Finance Minister of Greece earlier this year.

ministra finansija Grčke ranije ove godine.

YV: I knew this was coming.

JV: Očekivao sam to pitanje.

BG: Yes.

BĐ: Da.

BG: Six months after,

Šest meseci kasnije,

how do you look back at the first half of the year?

kako sad gledaš na prvu polovinu godine?

YV: Extremely exciting, from a personal point of view,

JV: Izuzetno je uzbudljivo, s lične tačke gledišta

and very disappointing,

i veoma razočaravajuće

because we had an opportunity to reboot the Eurozone.

jer smo imali šansu da nanovo definišemo Evrozonu.

Not just Greece, the Eurozone.

Ne samo Grčku, već Evrozonu.

To move away from the complacency

Da napravimo otklon od samozadovoljstva

and the constant denial that there was a massive --

i stalnog poricanja da smo imali ogromnu -

and there is a massive architectural fault line

i dalje imamo ogromnu arhitektonsku pukotinu

going through the Eurozone,

koja prolazi Evrozonom,

which is threatening, massively, the whole of the European Union process.

koja masivno preti celokupnim procesima Evropske unije.

We had an opportunity on the basis of the Greek program --

Imali smo šansu, na osnovu grčkog programa -

which by the way,

koji je usput

was the first program to manifest that denial --

bio prvi program koji je obelodanio to poricanje -

to put it right.

da ispravimo stvari.

And, unfortunately,

A, nažalost,

the powers in the Eurozone,

snage u Evrozoni,

in the Eurogroup,

u Evrogrupi,

chose to maintain denial.

biraju da održavaju to poricanje.

But you know what happens.

Ali znate o čemu se radi.

This is the experience of the Soviet Union.

To je iskustvo Sovjetskog saveza.

When you try to keep alive

Kada pokušavate da održite u životu

an economic system that architecturally cannot survive,

ekonomski sistem, koji arhitektonski ne može da preživi,

through political will and through authoritarianism,

političkom voljom i autoritarnošću,

you may succeed in prolonging it,

možda ćete uspeti da ga produžite,

but when change happens

ali kada dođe do promene,

it happens very abruptly and catastrophically.

ona se dešava naglo i katastrofalno.

BG: What kind of change are you foreseeing?

BĐ: Kakvu promenu predviđaš?

YV: Well, there's no doubt

JV: Pa, nema sumnje

that if we don't change the architecture of the Eurozone,

da ako ne promenimo arhitekturu Evrozone,

the Eurozone has no future.

Evrozona nema budućnost.

BG: Did you make any mistakes when you were Finance Minister?

BĐ: Da li si napravio neku grešku dok si bio ministar finansija?

YV: Every day.

JV: Svakodnevno.

BG: For example? YV: Anybody who looks back --

BĐ: Na primer? JV: Svako ko se osvrne -

(Applause)

(Aplauz)

No, but seriously.

Ne, ozbiljno.

If there's any Minister of Finance, or of anything else for that matter,

Ako postoji ijedan ministar finansija ili bilo čega drugog,

who tells you after six months in a job,

koji vam nakon šest meseci na poslu kaže,

especially in such a stressful situation,

naročito u tako stresnoj situaciji,

that they have made no mistake, they're dangerous people.

da nisu napravili nikakvu grešku, radi se o opasnim ljudima.

Of course I made mistakes.

Naravno da sam grešio.

The greatest mistake was to sign the application

Najveća greška je što sam potpisao molbu

for the extension of a loan agreement

za produženje dogovora o zajmu

in the end of February.

krajem februara.

I was imagining

Zamišljao sam

that there was a genuine interest on the side of the creditors

da postoji stvarna zainteresovanost od strane kreditora

to find common ground.

da se nađe zajednički jezik.

And there wasn't.

Međutim nije tako bilo.

They were simply interested in crushing our government,

Jedino ih je interesovalo da sruše našu vladu,

just because they did not want

samo zato što nisu želeli

to have to deal with the architectural fault lines

da budu prinuđeni da se bave arhitektonskim pukotinama

that were running through the Eurozone.

koje se šire Evrozonom.

And because they didn't want to admit

I zato što nisu želeli da priznaju

that for five years they were implementing a catastrophic program in Greece.

da su tokom pet godina primenjivali katastrofalan program u Grčkoj.

We lost one-third of our nominal GDP.

Izgubili smo trećinu našeg nominalnog BDP-a.

This is worse than the Great Depression.

Ovo je gore od Velike depresije.

And no one has come clean

A niko nije izneo na videlo,

from the troika of lenders that have been imposing this policy

od strane kreditorske trojke koja je primenjivala ovu politiku

to say, "This was a colossal mistake."

priznanje: "Ovo je bila kolosalna greška."

BG: Despite all this,

BĐ: Uprkos svemu ovome,

and despite the aggressiveness of the discussion,

i uprkos agresivnosti diskusije,

you seem to be remaining quite pro-European.

čini se da si i dalje prilično pro-Evropljanin.

YV: Absolutely.

JV: Apsolutno.

Look, my criticism of the European Union and the Eurozone

Vidite, moja kritika Evropske unije i Evrozone

comes from a person who lives and breathes Europe.

dolazi od osobe koja živi i diše Evropu.

My greatest fear is that the Eurozone will not survive.

Moj najveći strah je da Evrozona neće preživeti.

Because if it doesn't,

Jer, ako ne preživi,

the centrifugal forces that will be unleashed

centrifugalne sile koje će se osloboditi

will be demonic,

će da budu demonske

and they will destroy the European Union.

i uništiće Evropsku uniju.

And that will be catastrophic not just for Europe

A to će da bude katastrofalno, ne samo za Evropu,

but for the whole global economy.

već za celokupnu globalnu ekonomiju.

We are probably the largest economy in the world.

Mi smo najverovatnije najveća ekonomija na svetu.

And if we allow ourselves

I, ako dozvolimo sebi

to fall into a route of the postmodern 1930's,

da skliznemo na trasu postmodernih 1930-ih,

which seems to me to be what we are doing,

a čini mi se da to radimo,

then that will be detrimental

onda će to da bude štetno

to the future of Europeans and non-Europeans alike.

po budućnost Evropljana i sličnih neevropljana.

BG: We definitely hope you are wrong on that point.

BĐ: Definitivno se nadamo da grešiš po tom pitanju.

Yanis, thank you for coming to TED.

Janise, hvala što si došao na TED.

YV: Thank you.

JV: Hvala vama.

(Applause)

(Aplauz)