Capitalism will eat democracy -- unless we speak up | Yanis Varoufakis

Translator: Carme Paz Reviewer: Alicia Ferreiro

Democracy.

Democracia

In the West,

En Occidente,

we make a colossal mistake taking it for granted.

cometemos un grande erro ao dala por feito.

We see democracy

Vemos a democracia

not as the most fragile of flowers that it really is,

non como a máis fráxil das flores, o que é en realidade,

senón como parte do mobiliario da nosa sociedade.

but we see it as part of our society's furniture.

We tend to think of it as an intransigent given.

Tendemos a pensar nela como un feito definitivo.

We mistakenly believe that capitalism begets inevitably democracy.

Pensamos, de forma errada, que o capitalismo xera sempre democracia.

It doesn't.

Mais non o fai.

Singapore's Lee Kuan Yew and his great imitators in Beijing

Lee Kuan Yew, de Singapur, e os seus grandes imitadores en Beijing,

have demonstrated beyond reasonable doubt

demostraron, máis alá de calquera dúbida,

that it is perfectly possible to have a flourishing capitalism,

que é perfectamente posible ter un capitalismo vizoso,

spectacular growth,

de crecemento espectacular,

while politics remains democracy-free.

mentres a política permanece exenta de democracia.

De feito, a democracia está en regresión no noso terreo,

Indeed, democracy is receding in our neck of the woods,

here in Europe.

aquí en Europa.

A comezos deste ano, cando estaba representando a Grecia

Earlier this year, while I was representing Greece --

the newly elected Greek government --

-no goberno grego que acababa de ser elixido-

in the Eurogroup as its Finance Minister,

no Eurogrupo, como ministro de Finanzas,

I was told in no uncertain terms that our nation's democratic process --

dixéronme claramente que o proceso democrático no noso país

our elections --

-as nosas eleccións-

could not be allowed to interfere

non podían interferir coas políticas económicas

with economic policies that were being implemented in Greece.

que se estaban desenvolvendo en Grecia.

Naquel momento,

At that moment,

I felt that there could be no greater vindication of Lee Kuan Yew,

sentín que non podía haber maior reivindicación de Lee Kuan Yew,

or the Chinese Communist Party,

nin do Partido Comunista Chinés,

indeed of some recalcitrant friends of mine who kept telling me

nin dalgúns amigos meus, recalcitrantes, que estaban sempre a dicirme

que se prohibiría a democracia se ameazásemos alterar algo.

that democracy would be banned if it ever threatened to change anything.

Tonight, here, I want to present to you

Esta noite, quero presentarvos

an economic case for an authentic democracy.

un escenario económico para unha auténtica democracia.

I want to ask you to join me in believing again

Quero pedirvos que me acompañedes para volver a crer

that Lee Kuan Yew,

que Lee Kuan Yew,

the Chinese Communist Party

O Partido Comunista Chinés

and indeed the Eurogroup

e o Eurogrupo tamén

are wrong in believing that we can dispense with democracy --

están errados, ao creren que podemos prescindir da democracia,

that we need an authentic, boisterous democracy.

que precisamos unha democracia auténtica e estrondosa.

And without democracy,

E sen democracia,

our societies will be nastier,

as nosas sociedades serán máis ruíns,

our future bleak

o noso futuro, escuro

and our great, new technologies wasted.

e as nosas grandes, novas tecnoloxías, botadas a perder.

Speaking of waste,

Falando de botar a perder,

allow me to point out an interesting paradox

permitídeme apuntar un interesante paradoxo

that is threatening our economies as we speak.

que está ameazando as nosas economías.

Eu chámolle o paradoxo dos picos xemelgos.

I call it the twin peaks paradox.

One peak you understand --

Un dos picos, xa sabedes,

you know it, you recognize it --

ídelo recoñecer,

is the mountain of debts that has been casting a long shadow

é a montaña de débedas que proxecta unha longa sombra

over the United States, Europe, the whole world.

sobre os EE.UU., Europa, o mundo enteiro.

We all recognize the mountain of debts.

Todos recoñecemos a montaña de débedas.

But few people discern its twin.

Pero poucas persoas distinguen o seu xemelgo.

A mountain of idle cash

A montaña de diñeiro improdutivo

belonging to rich savers and to corporations,

que pertence aos aforradores ricos e ás grandes empresas,

demasiado aterrorizados para investilo

too terrified to invest it

into the productive activities that can generate the incomes

en actividades produtivas que poidan xerar ingresos

con que poidamos eliminar a montaña de débedas

from which you can extinguish the mountain of debts

e que poidan producir o que a humanidade necesita desesperadamente,

and which can produce all those things that humanity desperately needs,

como a enerxía verde.

like green energy.

Now let me give you two numbers.

Agora vou darvos dous números.

Nos últimos tres meses,

Over the last three months,

in the United States, in Britain and in the Eurozone,

nos EE.UU., en Gran Bretaña e na Eurozona,

we have invested, collectively, 3.4 trillion dollars

investimos colectivamente 3,4 billóns de dólares

on all the wealth-producing goods --

en todos os bens que producen riqueza

things like industrial plants, machinery,

-cousas como instalacións industriais, maquinaria,

office blocks, schools,

edificios de oficinas, escolas,

roads, railways, machinery, and so on and so forth.

estradas, ferrocarrís, maquinaria, etc., etc.

$3.4 trillion sounds like a lot of money

3,4 billóns de dólares parecen moitos cartos

until you compare it to the $5.1 trillion

ata que os comparamos cos 5,1 billóns

that has been slushing around in the same countries,

que se esparexeron neses mesmos países,

in our financial institutions,

nas nosas institucións financeiras,

sen facer absolutamente nada durante o mesmo período

doing absolutely nothing during the same period

except inflating stock exchanges and bidding up house prices.

agás inflar os mercados bursátiles e encarecer os prezos da vivenda.

So a mountain of debt and a mountain of idle cash

Así que temos unha montaña de débeda e unha montaña de diñeiro improdutivo

form twin peaks, failing to cancel each other out

que forman os picos xemelgos, sen poder anularse un ao outro

through the normal operation of the markets.

a través da operación normal dos mercados.

O resultado é o estancamento dos salarios,

The result is stagnant wages,

more than a quarter of 25- to 54-year-olds in America, in Japan and in Europe

o desemprego de máis dun cuarto de traballadores, dos 25 aos 54 anos,

en América, Xapón e Europa.

out of work.

And consequently, low aggregate demand,

E, consecuentemente, baixa a demanda agregada

which in a never-ending cycle,

nun ciclo sen fin,

que reforza o pesimismo dos investidores,

reinforces the pessimism of the investors,

who, fearing low demand, reproduce it by not investing --

que, por medo á baixa demanda, responden non investindo,

exactly like Oedipus' father,

exactamente como o pai de Edipo

who, terrified by the prophecy of the oracle

que, estarrecido pola profecía do oráculo

that his son would grow up to kill him,

de que o seu fillo medraría para matalo,

unwittingly engineered the conditions

inconscientemente creou as condicións

that ensured that Oedipus, his son, would kill him.

que aseguraron que Edipo, o seu fillo, o matase.

This is my quarrel with capitalism.

Esta é a miña batalla co capitalismo.

Its gross wastefulness,

A súa grave dilapidación de cartos,

all this idle cash,

todo este diñeiro improdutivo,

should be energized to improve lives,

debería ser canalizado en mellorar vidas,

en desenvolver o talento humano,

to develop human talents,

and indeed to finance all these technologies,

e en financiar todas esas tecnoloxías,

green technologies,

tecnoloxías verdes,

which are absolutely essential for saving planet Earth.

que son absolutamente esenciais para salvar o planeta.

Am I right in believing that democracy might be the answer?

¿Teño razón ao crer que a democracia podería ser a resposta?

I believe so,

Eu penso que si,

but before we move on,

pero antes de seguir,

¿que entendemos por democracia?

what do we mean by democracy?

Aristotle defined democracy

Aristóteles definiu a democracia

as the constitution in which the free and the poor,

como a constitución en que os libres e os pobres,

being in the majority, control government.

ao seren a maioría, controlan o goberno.

Claro que a democracia ateniense excluía demasiada xente.

Now, of course Athenian democracy excluded too many.

Women, migrants and, of course, the slaves.

Mulleres, migrantes e, por suposto, escravos.

Pero sería un erro

But it would be a mistake

to dismiss the significance of ancient Athenian democracy

rexeitar o significado da antiga democracia ateniense

on the basis of whom it excluded.

baseándonos en quen excluía.

What was more pertinent,

O que era máis pertinente,

and continues to be so about ancient Athenian democracy,

e continúa séndoo na antiga democracia ateniense,

was the inclusion of the working poor,

era a inclusión dos traballadores pobres,

who not only acquired the right to free speech,

os que non só adquirían o dereito da liberdade de expresión,

senón que, o máis importante, crucial,

but more importantly, crucially,

they acquired the rights to political judgments

adquirían os dereitos aos xuízos políticos

que lles concedían igual peso

that were afforded equal weight

in the decision-making concerning matters of state.

no proceso de toma de decisións sobre cuestións de estado.

Claro, a democracia ateniense non durou moito.

Now, of course, Athenian democracy didn't last long.

Como unha candea que arde vivamente, queimouse axiña.

Like a candle that burns brightly, it burned out quickly.

And indeed,

E de feito,

our liberal democracies today do not have their roots in ancient Athens.

a nosa actual democracia liberal non ten as súas raíces na antiga Atenas.

Ten as súas raíces na Carta Magna,

They have their roots in the Magna Carta,

in the 1688 Glorious Revolution,

na Revolución Gloriosa de 1688,

indeed in the American constitution.

mesmo na constitución de EE.UU.

Mentres que a democracia ateniense se centrou na cidadanía sen dono

Whereas Athenian democracy was focusing on the masterless citizen

e no empoderamento dos traballadores pobres,

and empowering the working poor,

our liberal democracies are founded on the Magna Carta tradition,

as nosas democracias liberais baséanse na tradición da Carta Magna,

which was, after all, a charter for masters.

que era, despois de todo, unha carta para amos.

And indeed, liberal democracy only surfaced when it was possible

E, de feito, a democracia liberal só xurdiu cando foi posible

to separate fully the political sphere from the economic sphere,

separar totalmente a esfera política da esfera económica,

so as to confine the democratic process fully in the political sphere,

para restrinxir o proceso democrático totalmente á esfera política,

leaving the economic sphere --

deixando a esfera económica

the corporate world, if you want --

-o mundo empresarial, se queredes-

as a democracy-free zone.

como unha zona libre de democracia.

Now, in our democracies today,

Ben, na nosa democracia actual,

this separation of the economic from the political sphere,

esta separación da esfera económica e da politica,

the moment it started happening,

o momento en que comezou,

it gave rise to an inexorable, epic struggle between the two,

deu lugar a unha inexorable loita épica entre as dúas,

with the economic sphere colonizing the political sphere,

coa esfera económica colonizando a esfera política,

devorando o seu poder.

eating into its power.

Have you wondered why politicians are not what they used to be?

Preguntástesvos por que os políticos non son o que adoitaban ser?

It's not because their DNA has degenerated.

Non é porque o seu ADN dexenerara.

(Risos)

(Laughter)

It is rather because one can be in government today and not in power,

Máis ben é porque hoxe un pode estar no goberno e non ter poder,

because power has migrated from the political to the economic sphere,

porque o poder migrou desde a esfera política á económica,

which is separate.

que está separada.

De feito,

Indeed,

I spoke about my quarrel with capitalism.

falei da miña batalla contra o capitalismo.

Se pensades niso,

If you think about it,

it is a little bit like a population of predators,

é un pouco como unha poboación de predadores,

que teñen tanto éxito en aniquilar a presa da que se alimentan,

that are so successful in decimating the prey that they must feed on,

that in the end they starve.

que, á fin, morren de fame.

Similarly,

De igual xeito,

the economic sphere has been colonizing and cannibalizing the political sphere

a esfera económica foi colonizando e canibalizando a esfera política

to such an extent that it is undermining itself,

ata tal punto que se debilitou a si mesma,

provocando a crise económica.

causing economic crisis.

Corporate power is increasing,

O poder corporativo está aumentando,

political goods are devaluing,

os bens políticos están desvalorizándose,

inequality is rising,

a desigualdade aumenta,

a demanda agregada está caendo

aggregate demand is falling

and CEOs of corporations are too scared to invest the cash of their corporations.

e os CEO das empresas teñen demasiado medo de investir o diñeiro das súas empresas.

So the more capitalism succeeds in taking the demos out of democracy,

Así que canto máis éxito ten o capitalismo en tirar o demos da democracia,

the taller the twin peaks

máis altos son os picos xemelgos

and the greater the waste of human resources

e maior é a perda de recursos humanos

e de riqueza da humanidade.

and humanity's wealth.

Clearly, if this is right,

Claramente, se isto é así,

we must reunite the political and economic spheres

debemos reunir as esferas política e económica

and better do it with a demos being in control,

e mellor facelo cun demos ao mando,

como na antiga Atenas pero sen os escravos

like in ancient Athens except without the slaves

e sen a exclusión de mulleres e migrantes.

or the exclusion of women and migrants.

Agora ben, isto non é unha idea orixinal.

Now, this is not an original idea.

The Marxist left had that idea 100 years ago

A esquerda marxista tivo esa idea hai cen anos

and it didn't go very well, did it?

e non foi moi ben, non?

The lesson that we learned from the Soviet debacle

A lección que aprendemos do fracaso soviético

is that only by a miracle will the working poor be reempowered,

é que só por un milagre os traballadores pobres volverán ter poder,

as they were in ancient Athens,

como o tiñan na antiga Atenas,

without creating new forms of brutality and waste.

sen crear novas formas de brutalidade nin desproveitos.

But there is a solution:

Pero hai unha solución:

eliminate the working poor.

eliminar os traballadores pobres.

Capitalism's doing it

O capitalismo estao facendo

by replacing low-wage workers with automata, androids, robots.

ao substituír os traballadores con baixos salarios por autómatas, androides, robots.

O problema é que

The problem is

that as long as the economic and the political spheres are separate,

mentres as esferas económica e política estean separadas,

automation makes the twin peaks taller,

a automatización fai os picos máis altos,

the waste loftier

e máis altos son os desproveitos

and the social conflicts deeper,

e máis profundos os conflitos sociais,

including --

mesmo

soon, I believe --

-pronto, creo-

in places like China.

en lugares como China.

So we need to reconfigure,

Así que necesitamos reconfigurar,

necesitamos reunir as esferas económica e política,

we need to reunite the economic and the political spheres,

but we'd better do it by democratizing the reunified sphere,

pero será mellor facelo democratizando as esferas reunificadas,

lest we end up with a surveillance-mad hyperautocracy

para non rematar cunha hiperautocracia obsesionada coa vixilancia

that makes The Matrix, the movie, look like a documentary.

que fará que o filme Matrix pareza un documental.

(Laughter)

(Risos)

So the question is not whether capitalism will survive

Así que a pregunta non é se o capitalismo sobrevivirá

as innovacións tecnolóxicas que está xerando.

the technological innovations it is spawning.

The more interesting question

A pregunta máis interesante

is whether capitalism will be succeeded by something resembling a Matrix dystopia

é se o capitalismo terá éxito como algo que se parece á distopía de Matrix

or something much closer to a Star Trek-like society,

ou algo máis achegado á sociedade de Star Trek,

where machines serve the humans

onde as máquinas serven os humanos

and the humans expend their energies exploring the universe

e os humanos gastan as súas enerxías explorando o universo

and indulging in long debates about the meaning of life

e entregándose a longos debates sobre o sentido da vida

in some ancient, Athenian-like, high tech agora.

nunha antiga ágora, como a de Atenas, altamente tecnolóxica.

I think we can afford to be optimistic.

Penso que podemos permitirnos ser optimistas.

But what would it take,

Pero canto levaría,

what would it look like

como sería

to have this Star Trek-like utopia, instead of the Matrix-like dystopia?

ter esta utopía Star Trek, en lugar da distopía Matrix?

In practical terms,

En termos prácticos,

allow me to share just briefly,

permitídeme compartir brevemente,

a couple of examples.

un par de exemplos.

Ao nivel empresarial,

At the level of the enterprise,

imagine a capital market,

imaxinade un mercado de capitais,

where you earn capital as you work,

onde se gaña capital segundo se traballa,

and where your capital follows you from one job to another,

e onde o noso capital nos segue dun traballo a outro,

from one company to another,

dunha empresa a outra,

and the company --

e a empresa,

calquera que for onde esteamos traballando nese momento

whichever one you happen to work at at that time --

is solely owned by those who happen to work in it at that moment.

é propiedade exclusiva daqueles que traballan alí nese momento.

Then all income stems from capital, from profits,

Entón todos os ingresos veñen do capital, dos beneficios

e o concepto de traballo asalariado convértese en obsoleto.

and the very concept of wage labor becomes obsolete.

No more separation between those who own but do not work in the company

Non hai separación entre aqueles que posúen pero non traballan na empresa

e aqueles que traballan pero non posúen a empresa;

and those who work but do not own the company;

no more tug-of-war between capital and labor;

xa non hai tira e afrouxa entre capital e traballo;

no great gap between investment and saving;

ningunha fenda entre investimento e aforro;

indeed, no towering twin peaks.

de feito, non hai altísimos picos xemelgos.

At the level of the global political economy,

Ao nivel da economía política global,

imaxinade por un momento

imagine for a moment

that our national currencies have a free-floating exchange rate,

que as nosas moedas nacionais teñen un tipo de cambio flexible,

with a universal, global, digital currency,

cunha moeda universal, global, dixital,

one that is issued by the International Monetary Fund,

unha emitida polo Fondo Monetario Internacional,

the G-20,

o G-20,

en beneficio de toda a humanidade.

on behalf of all humanity.

And imagine further

E imaxinade, ademais,

that all international trade is denominated in this currency --

que todo o comercio internacional se produza nesa moeda,

let's call it "the cosmos,"

imos chamarlle "o cosmos",

en unidades de cosmos

in units of cosmos --

with every government agreeing to be paying into a common fund

con cada goberno aceptando pagar para un fondo común

unha suma de unidades de cosmos proporcional ao déficit comercial do país,

a sum of cosmos units proportional to the country's trade deficit,

or indeed to a country's trade surplus.

ou mesmo ao superávit comercial dun país.

And imagine that that fund is utilized to invest in green technologies,

E imaxinade que ese fondo se utiliza para investir en tecnoloxías verdes,

especially in parts of the world where investment funding is scarce.

especialmente en partes do mundo onde os investimentos son escasos.

This is not a new idea.

Esta non é unha idea nova.

It's what, effectively, John Maynard Keynes proposed

É o que, eficazmente, John Maynard Keynes propuxo

in 1944 at the Bretton Woods Conference.

en 1944 na Conferencia de Bretton Woods.

O problema é

The problem is

that back then, they didn't have the technology to implement it.

que daquela, non tiñan a tecnoloxía para desenvolvelo.

Now we do,

Agora témola,

especially in the context of a reunified political-economic sphere.

especialmente no contexto dunha esfera reunificada político-económica.

The world that I am describing to you

O mundo que vos estou describindo

é asemade libertario,

is simultaneously libertarian,

in that it prioritizes empowered individuals,

en canto prioriza o empoderamento das persoas,

marxista,

Marxist,

since it will have confined to the dustbin of history

xa que levará á papeleira da historia

the division between capital and labor,

a división entre capital e traballo,

e keynesiano,

and Keynesian,

global Keynesian.

keynesiano global.

But above all else,

Pero sobre todo,

it is a world in which we will be able to imagine an authentic democracy.

é un mundo no que seremos quen de imaxinar unha auténtica democracia.

Will such a world dawn?

¿Alborexerá tal mundo?

Or shall we descend into a Matrix-like dystopia?

¿Ou caeremos nunha distopía como a de Matrix?

The answer lies in the political choice that we shall be making collectively.

A resposta está na escolla política que fagamos colectivamente.

It is our choice,

É a nosa escolla,

and we'd better make it democratically.

e será mellor que a fagamos democraticamente.

Thank you.

Grazas.

(Applause)

(Aplausos)

Bruno Giussani: Yanis ...

Bruno Giussani: Yanis,

It was you who described yourself in your bios as a libertarian Marxist.

foi vostede quen se describiu como un marxista libertario.

What is the relevance of Marx's analysis today?

Cal é a relevancia da análise de Marx hoxe?

Yanis Varoufakis: Ben, se hai algunha relevancia no que acabo de dicir,

Yanis Varoufakis: Well, if there was any relevance in what I just said,

then Marx is relevant.

entón Marx é relevante.

Because the whole point of reunifying the political and economic is --

Porque o motivo de reunificar a política e a economía é que,

se non o facemos,

if we don't do it,

then technological innovation is going to create

a innovación tecnolóxica vai xerar

such a massive fall in aggregate demand,

unha caída enorme na demanda agregada,

what Larry Summers refers to as secular stagnation.

o que Larry Summers denomina como estancamento secular.

With this crisis migrating from one part of the world,

Con esta crise migratoria dunha parte do mundo,

as it is now,

como a actual,

it will destabilize not only our democracies,

desestabilizará non só as nosas democracias,

but even the emerging world that is not that keen on liberal democracy.

senón tamén o mundo emerxente que non é partidario da democracia liberal.

Así que se esta análise é sólida entón Marx é totalmente relevante.

So if this analysis holds water, then Marx is absolutely relevant.

Pero tamén o é Hayek,

But so is Hayek,

that's why I'm a libertarian Marxist,

por iso son marxista libertario,

and so is Keynes,

e tamén o é Keynes,

so that's why I'm totally confused.

por iso estou tan confuso.

(Laughter)

(Risos)

BG: Certo, e posiblemente agora nós tamén

BG: Indeed, and possibly we are too, now.

(Laughter)

(Risos)

(Applause)

(Aplausos)

YV: If you are not confused, you are not thinking, OK?

YV: Se non estás confuso, é que non estás pensando, non?

BG: That's a very, very Greek philosopher kind of thing to say --

BG: Ese é un comentario moi de filósofo grego...

YV: That was Einstein, actually --

YV: En realidade, díxoo Einstein...

BG: Durante a súa charla mencionou Singapur e China,

BG: During your talk you mentioned Singapore and China,

and last night at the speaker dinner,

e a pasada noite na cea de relatores

you expressed a pretty strong opinion about how the West looks at China.

expresou unha firme opinión acerca de como Occidente mira a China.

Would you like to share that?

¿Podería compartila?

YV: Well, there's a great degree of hypocrisy.

YV: Ben, hai un enorme grao de hipocrisía.

In our liberal democracies, we have a semblance of democracy.

Nas nosas democracias liberais, temos unha aparencia de democracia.

It's because we have confined, as I was saying in my talk,

É porque restrinximos, como dixen na miña charla,

democracy to the political sphere,

a democracia á esfera política,

while leaving the one sphere where all the action is --

mentres deixamos a esfera onde está toda a acción

the economic sphere --

-a esfera económica-

a completely democracy-free zone.

como unha zona totalmente libre de democracia.

In a sense,

Nun sentido,

if I am allowed to be provocative,

se se me permite ser provocador,

China today is closer to Britain in the 19th century.

hoxe China está máis perto de Gran Bretaña que no século XIX.

Because remember,

Porque lembre,

we tend to associate liberalism with democracy --

tendemos a asociar liberalismo con democracia,

that's a mistake, historically.

iso é un erro, historicamente.

Liberalism, liberal, it's like John Stuart Mill.

Liberalismo, liberal, é como John Stuart Mill.

John Stuart Mill era particularmente escéptico sobre o proceso democrático.

John Stuart Mill was particularly skeptical about the democratic process.

So what you are seeing now in China is a very similar process

Así que o que vemos agora en China é un proceso moi similar

ao que tivemos en Gran Bretaña durante a Revolución Industrial,

to the one that we had in Britain during the Industrial Revolution,

especially the transition from the first to the second.

especialmente durante a transición da primeira á segunda.

And to be castigating China

E estar castigando a China

for doing that which the West did in the 19th century,

por facer o que Occidente fixo no século XIX,

smacks of hypocrisy.

soa a hipocrisía.

BG: I am sure that many people here are wondering about your experience

BG: Estou seguro de que moita xente aquí se preguntará pola súa experiencia

as the Finance Minister of Greece earlier this year.

como Ministro de Finanzas de Grecia a comezos deste ano.

YV: I knew this was coming.

YV: Xa o vía vir.

BG: Yes.

BG: Si.

BG: Six months after,

BG: Seis meses despois,

¿como ve o que pasou na primeira metade do ano?

how do you look back at the first half of the year?

YV: Extremely exciting, from a personal point of view,

YV: Sumamente fascinante, desde un punto de vista persoal,

and very disappointing,

e moi decepcionante,

because we had an opportunity to reboot the Eurozone.

porque tiñamos unha oportunidade para reiniciar a Eurozona.

Not just Greece, the Eurozone.

Non só Grecia, a Eurozona.

To move away from the complacency

Para afastarse da complacencia

and the constant denial that there was a massive --

e a constante negación de que habia unha enorme,

and there is a massive architectural fault line

e hai unha enorme fenda na arquitectura

going through the Eurozone,

da Eurozona,

which is threatening, massively, the whole of the European Union process.

que está ameazando a totalidade do proceso da Unión Europea.

We had an opportunity on the basis of the Greek program --

Tivemos unha oportunidade baseada no programa grego

que, por certo,

which by the way,

was the first program to manifest that denial --

foi o primeiro programa que manifestou esa negación

to put it right.

para corrixila.

E, desgrazadamente,

And, unfortunately,

the powers in the Eurozone,

os poderes da zona euro,

no Eurogrupo,

in the Eurogroup,

optaron por manter a negación.

chose to maintain denial.

Pero xa sabe o que pasa.

But you know what happens.

This is the experience of the Soviet Union.

É a experiencia da Unión Soviética.

When you try to keep alive

Cando intentas manter vivo

an economic system that architecturally cannot survive,

un sistema económico que estructuralmente non pode sobrevivir,

through political will and through authoritarianism,

a través da vontade política e a través do autoritarismo,

you may succeed in prolonging it,

podes ter éxito en prolongalo,

but when change happens

pero cando se produce o cambio

it happens very abruptly and catastrophically.

ocorre de xeito abrupto e catastrófico.

BG: ¿Que tipo de cambio prevé?

BG: What kind of change are you foreseeing?

YV: Ben, non hai dúbida

YV: Well, there's no doubt

that if we don't change the architecture of the Eurozone,

de que se non cambiamos a arquitectura da Eurozona,

a Eurozona non ten futuro.

the Eurozone has no future.

BG: Did you make any mistakes when you were Finance Minister?

BG: ¿Cometeu erros cando era ministro de Finanzas?

YV: Every day.

YV: Todos os días.

BG: ¿Por exemplo? YV: Calquera que mira cara atrás...

BG: For example? YV: Anybody who looks back --

(Applause)

(Aplausos)

Non, pero en serio.

No, but seriously.

If there's any Minister of Finance, or of anything else for that matter,

Se hai algún ministro de Facenda ou de calquera outra cousa,

que di ao cabo de seis meses nun traballo,

who tells you after six months in a job,

especially in such a stressful situation,

especialmente nunha situación con tanta tensión,

que non cometeu ningún erro, é unha persoa perigosa.

that they have made no mistake, they're dangerous people.

Of course I made mistakes.

Claro que cometín erros.

O erro máis grande foi asinar a petición

The greatest mistake was to sign the application

for the extension of a loan agreement

para ampliar o acordo do préstamo

a finais de febreiro.

in the end of February.

I was imagining

Imaxinaba

that there was a genuine interest on the side of the creditors

que había un interese xenuíno por parte dos acredores

to find common ground.

por atopar puntos de encontro.

And there wasn't.

E non o había.

They were simply interested in crushing our government,

So lles interesaba esmagar o noso goberno,

só porque non querían

just because they did not want

to have to deal with the architectural fault lines

ter que enfrontarse coas fendas

that were running through the Eurozone.

que estaban percorrendo a Eurozona.

And because they didn't want to admit

E porque non quixeron admitir

that for five years they were implementing a catastrophic program in Greece.

que estiveran cinco anos pondo en marcha un programa catastrófico en Grecia.

We lost one-third of our nominal GDP.

Perdemos un terzo do noso PIB nominal.

This is worse than the Great Depression.

Isto é peor cá Gran Depresión.

E ninguén saiu

And no one has come clean

from the troika of lenders that have been imposing this policy

da troika de acredores que impuxeron esta política

to say, "This was a colossal mistake."

a dicir "Isto foi un erro colosal."

BG: Despite all this,

BG: A pesar de todo isto,

and despite the aggressiveness of the discussion,

e a pesar da agresividade da discusión,

parece ser aínda bastante pro-Europa.

you seem to be remaining quite pro-European.

YV: Absolutely.

YV: Totalmente.

Look, my criticism of the European Union and the Eurozone

Mire, as miñas críticas da Unión Europea e a Eurozona

comes from a person who lives and breathes Europe.

veñen dunha persoa que vive e respira Europa.

My greatest fear is that the Eurozone will not survive.

O meu maior medo é que a Eurozona non sobreviva.

Because if it doesn't,

Porque se non o fai,

the centrifugal forces that will be unleashed

as forzas centrífugas que se desencadearán

will be demonic,

serán demoníacas,

and they will destroy the European Union.

e destruirán a Unión Europea.

And that will be catastrophic not just for Europe

E será catastrófico non só para Europa

but for the whole global economy.

senón para toda a economía global.

We are probably the largest economy in the world.

Somos probablemente a maior economía do mundo.

And if we allow ourselves

E se nos permitimos

to fall into a route of the postmodern 1930's,

caer na vía duns posmodernos anos 30,

que parece que é o que estamos facendo,

which seems to me to be what we are doing,

then that will be detrimental

entón será prexudicial

to the future of Europeans and non-Europeans alike.

para o futuro tanto de europeos como de non europeos.

BG: Dende logo agardamos que se equivoque nese punto.

BG: We definitely hope you are wrong on that point.

Yanis, thank you for coming to TED.

Yanis, grazas por vir ao TED.

YV: Thank you.

YV: Grazas.

(Applause)

(Aplausos)