Capitalism will eat democracy -- unless we speak up | Yanis Varoufakis

Prevoditelj: Djurdjica Ercegovac Recezent: Martina Juranic

Democracy.

Demokracija.

In the West,

Mi na Zapadu

we make a colossal mistake taking it for granted.

činimo ogromnu grešku uzimajući je kao gotovu činjenicu.

We see democracy

Demokraciju vidimo

not as the most fragile of flowers that it really is,

ne kao najkrhkiji cvijet, što ona ustvari jeste,

but we see it as part of our society's furniture.

već je vidimo kao dio pokućstva našeg društva.

We tend to think of it as an intransigent given.

Skloni smo o njoj misliti kao o beskompromisnoj datosti.

We mistakenly believe that capitalism begets inevitably democracy.

Pogrešno vjerujemo da kapitalizam neizbježno rađa demokraciju.

It doesn't.

To nije tako.

Singapore's Lee Kuan Yew and his great imitators in Beijing

Singapurski Lee Kuan Yew i njegovi veliki imitatori u Pekingu

have demonstrated beyond reasonable doubt

pokazali su, van svake sumnje,

that it is perfectly possible to have a flourishing capitalism,

da je savršeno moguće imati napredni kapitalizam,

spectacular growth,

spektakularni rast,

while politics remains democracy-free.

dok politika ostaje bez demokracije.

Indeed, democracy is receding in our neck of the woods,

Uistinu, demokracija uzmiče na našem terenu,

here in Europe.

ovdje u Europi.

Earlier this year, while I was representing Greece --

Početkom ove godine, dok sam predstavljao Grčku --

the newly elected Greek government --

novoizabranu grčku vladu --

in the Eurogroup as its Finance Minister,

u Eurogrupi, kao ministar financija,

I was told in no uncertain terms that our nation's democratic process --

izravno mi je rečeno da demokratski proces naše zemlje --

our elections --

naši izbori --

could not be allowed to interfere

ne smiju ometati

with economic policies that were being implemented in Greece.

ekonomske mjere koje su se uvodile u Grčkoj.

At that moment,

U tom času sam pomislio

I felt that there could be no greater vindication of Lee Kuan Yew,

da ne može biti boljeg opravdanja za Lee Kuan Yewa,

or the Chinese Communist Party,

ili kinesku Komunističku partiju,

indeed of some recalcitrant friends of mine who kept telling me

zapravo i nekih mojih svojeglavih prijatelja koji su mi stalno govorili

that democracy would be banned if it ever threatened to change anything.

da će demokracija biti zabranjena ako ikada zaprijeti bilo kakvom promjenom.

Tonight, here, I want to present to you

Večeras vam ovdje želim predstaviti

an economic case for an authentic democracy.

ekonomski primjer jedne autentične demokracije.

I want to ask you to join me in believing again

Želim od vas zatražiti da mi se pridružite u vjerovanju

that Lee Kuan Yew,

da Lee Kuan Yew,

the Chinese Communist Party

kineska Komunistička partija

and indeed the Eurogroup

i zapravo Eurogrupa

are wrong in believing that we can dispense with democracy --

griješe vjerujući da možemo bez demokracije --

that we need an authentic, boisterous democracy.

da nam je potrebna autentična, glasna demokracija.

And without democracy,

A bez demokracije,

our societies will be nastier,

naša će društva biti opasnija,

our future bleak

naša budućnost mračna

and our great, new technologies wasted.

i naše velike, nove tehnologije potraćene.

Speaking of waste,

Govoreći o rasipanju,

allow me to point out an interesting paradox

dozvolite mi da istaknem jedan zanimljiv paradoks

that is threatening our economies as we speak.

koji prijeti našim ekonomijama u ovom času dok pričamo.

I call it the twin peaks paradox.

Ja to nazivam paradoks vrhova blizanaca.

One peak you understand --

Jedan vrh razumijete --

you know it, you recognize it --

znate ga, prepoznajete ga --

is the mountain of debts that has been casting a long shadow

je brdo dugova koje baca dugačku sjenu

over the United States, Europe, the whole world.

preko Sjedinjenih država, Europe, cijelog svijeta.

We all recognize the mountain of debts.

Svi mi prepoznajemo brdo dugova.

But few people discern its twin.

Ali tek nekolicina razaznaju njegovog blizanca.

A mountain of idle cash

Brdo neaktivne gotovine

belonging to rich savers and to corporations,

koja pripada bogatim štedišama i korporacijama,

previše uplašenima da bi je investirali

too terrified to invest it

into the productive activities that can generate the incomes

u produktivne djelatnosti koje mogu stvoriti dohotke

from which you can extinguish the mountain of debts

od kojih možete iskorijeniti brdo dugova

and which can produce all those things that humanity desperately needs,

i koji mogu proizvesti sve one stvari koje čovječanstvo očajnički treba,

like green energy.

kao što je zelena energija.

Now let me give you two numbers.

Dozvolite da vam dam dva broja.

Over the last three months,

Tijekom zadnja tri mjeseca

in the United States, in Britain and in the Eurozone,

u Sjedinjenim državama, u Britaniji i Eurozoni,

we have invested, collectively, 3.4 trillion dollars

investirali smo, kolektivno, 3,4 trilijuna dolara

on all the wealth-producing goods --

u sve robe koje proizvode bogatstvo --

things like industrial plants, machinery,

stvari poput industrijskih postrojenja, strojeva,

office blocks, schools,

poslovnih zgrada, škola,

roads, railways, machinery, and so on and so forth.

cesta, pruga, strojeva i tako dalje i tako dalje.

$3.4 trillion sounds like a lot of money

3,4 trilijuna dolara zvuči kao mnogo novca

until you compare it to the $5.1 trillion

dok to ne usporedite s 5,1 trilijun dolara

that has been slushing around in the same countries,

koji su bili razbacani naokolo u tim istim zemljama,

in our financial institutions,

u našim financijskim ustanovama,

doing absolutely nothing during the same period

ne čineći apsolutno ništa u tom istom razdoblju

except inflating stock exchanges and bidding up house prices.

osim napuhavanja burzi i podizanja cijena stanova.

So a mountain of debt and a mountain of idle cash

Tako brdo dugova i brdo neaktivne gotovine

form twin peaks, failing to cancel each other out

tvore vrhove blizance, koji se ne uspijevaju međusobno poništiti

through the normal operation of the markets.

kroz normalno funkcioniranje tržišta.

The result is stagnant wages,

Rezultat je stagnacija plaća,

more than a quarter of 25- to 54-year-olds in America, in Japan and in Europe

više od četvrtine ljudi u dobi od 25 do 45 u Americi, Japanu i Europi su

out of work.

bez posla.

And consequently, low aggregate demand,

I stoga, niska agregatna potražnja,

which in a never-ending cycle,

koja u beskonačnom ciklusu,

reinforces the pessimism of the investors,

učvršćuje pesimizam investitora

who, fearing low demand, reproduce it by not investing --

koji je, bojeći se slabe potražnje, reproduciraju ne investirajući --

exactly like Oedipus' father,

upravo kao Edipov otac

who, terrified by the prophecy of the oracle

koji je, užasnut proročanstvom

that his son would grow up to kill him,

da će mu sin odrasti i ubiti ga,

unwittingly engineered the conditions

nesvjesno isplanirao okolnosti

that ensured that Oedipus, his son, would kill him.

koje su osigurale da ga Edip, njegov sin, ubije.

This is my quarrel with capitalism.

To je moja svađa s kapitalizmom.

Its gross wastefulness,

Njegova glupa rasipnost,

all this idle cash,

sva ta neaktivna gotovina,

should be energized to improve lives,

trebala bi biti aktivirana za poboljšanje života,

to develop human talents,

za razvoj ljudskih talenata,

and indeed to finance all these technologies,

i ustvari za financiranje svih tih tehnologija,

green technologies,

zelenih tehnologija,

which are absolutely essential for saving planet Earth.

koje su apsolutno ključne za spašavanje planete Zemlje.

Am I right in believing that democracy might be the answer?

Jesam li u pravu vjerujući da bi demokracija mogla biti odgovor?

I believe so,

Vjerujem da jesam,

but before we move on,

no prije nego što nastavimo,

what do we mean by democracy?

što mislimo pod demokracijom?

Aristotle defined democracy

Aristotel je demokraciju definirao

as the constitution in which the free and the poor,

kao uređenje u kojem slobodni i siromašni,

being in the majority, control government.

budući da su u većini, kontroliraju vladu.

Now, of course Athenian democracy excluded too many.

Naravno da je atenska demokracija isključivala previše njih.

Women, migrants and, of course, the slaves.

Žene, migrante i, naravno, robove.

But it would be a mistake

No bilo bi pogrešno

to dismiss the significance of ancient Athenian democracy

zanemariti značaj drevne atenske demokracije

on the basis of whom it excluded.

na osnovu toga koga je sve isključivala.

What was more pertinent,

Ono što je bilo značajnije,

and continues to be so about ancient Athenian democracy,

a i dalje je tako, za atensku demokraciju,

was the inclusion of the working poor,

bilo je uključivanje siromašnih radnika

who not only acquired the right to free speech,

koji, ne samo da su stekli slobodu govora,

but more importantly, crucially,

već, što je još važnije, presudno,

they acquired the rights to political judgments

stekli su pravo na politička mišljenja

that were afforded equal weight

koja su imala jednaku težinu

in the decision-making concerning matters of state.

u donošenju odluka o državnim pitanjima.

Now, of course, Athenian democracy didn't last long.

Naravno, atenska demokracija nije dugo trajala.

Like a candle that burns brightly, it burned out quickly.

Kao svijeća koja jako gori, brzo je izgorjela.

And indeed,

I, zapravo,

our liberal democracies today do not have their roots in ancient Athens.

naše današnje liberalne demokracije nemaju svoj korijen u drevnoj Ateni.

They have their roots in the Magna Carta,

One imaju svoj korijen u Velikoj povelji slobode, Magna carta,

in the 1688 Glorious Revolution,

u Slavnoj revoluciji 1688.,

indeed in the American constitution.

ustvari u Američkom ustavu.

Whereas Athenian democracy was focusing on the masterless citizen

Dok se atenska demokracija fokusirala na građanina bez gospodara

and empowering the working poor,

osnažujući siromašne radnike,

naše liberalne demokracije su utemeljene na tradiciji Velike povelje slobode,

our liberal democracies are founded on the Magna Carta tradition,

which was, after all, a charter for masters.

koja je, naposljetku, povelja za gospodare.

And indeed, liberal democracy only surfaced when it was possible

I uistinu, liberalna demokracija se pojavila tek kada je bilo moguće

to separate fully the political sphere from the economic sphere,

u potpunosti odvojiti političku sferu od ekonomske sfere,

so as to confine the democratic process fully in the political sphere,

kako bi se demokratski proces u potpunosti ograničio na političku sferu,

leaving the economic sphere --

ostavljajući sferu ekonomije --

the corporate world, if you want --

svijet korporacija, ako želite --

as a democracy-free zone.

kao zonu bez demokracije.

Now, in our democracies today,

U našim današnjim demokracijama

this separation of the economic from the political sphere,

ovo odvajanje ekonomske od političke sfere,

the moment it started happening,

u trenutku kada se počelo događati,

it gave rise to an inexorable, epic struggle between the two,

uzrokovalo je neizbježnu, epsku borbu između tih dviju sfera,

with the economic sphere colonizing the political sphere,

gdje je ekonomska sfera kolonizirala političku sferu,

eating into its power.

nagrizajući njenu moć.

Have you wondered why politicians are not what they used to be?

Jeste li se upitali zašto političari više nisu što su nekad bili?

It's not because their DNA has degenerated.

To nije stoga što im je DNA degenerirala.

(Laughter)

(Smijeh)

It is rather because one can be in government today and not in power,

To je zato što se danas može biti u vladi i ne imati moć,

because power has migrated from the political to the economic sphere,

zato jer je moć migrirala iz političke u ekonomsku sferu,

which is separate.

koja je odvojena.

Indeed,

Uistinu,

I spoke about my quarrel with capitalism.

govorio sam o svojoj svađi s kapitalizmom.

If you think about it,

Ako razmislite o tome,

it is a little bit like a population of predators,

to je pomalo kao populacija predatora,

that are so successful in decimating the prey that they must feed on,

koja je tako uspješna u desetkovanju plijena kojim se mora hraniti,

that in the end they starve.

da na koncu umire od gladi.

Similarly,

Slično tome,

the economic sphere has been colonizing and cannibalizing the political sphere

ekonomska sfera je kolonizirala i proždirala političku sferu

to such an extent that it is undermining itself,

do te mjere da je samu sebe potkopala,

causing economic crisis.

uzrokujući ekonomske krize.

Corporate power is increasing,

Korporativna moć raste,

political goods are devaluing,

politička dobra se obezvrijeđuju

inequality is rising,

nejednakost raste,

aggregate demand is falling

agregatna potražnja opada,

and CEOs of corporations are too scared to invest the cash of their corporations.

a direktori su suviše preplašeni da bi investirali gotovinu svojih korporacija.

So the more capitalism succeeds in taking the demos out of democracy,

Što je kapitalizam uspješniji u uklanjanju demosa iz demokracije,

the taller the twin peaks

to su viši vrhovi blizanci

and the greater the waste of human resources

i veće je rasipanje ljudskih resursa

and humanity's wealth.

i bogatstva čovječanstva.

Clearly, if this is right,

Jasno, ako je ovo točno,

we must reunite the political and economic spheres

mi moramo ponovo ujediniti političku i ekonomsku sferu

and better do it with a demos being in control,

i bolje da to učinimo pod kontrolom demosa,

like in ancient Athens except without the slaves

kao u drevnoj Ateni,

no bez robova ili isključivanja žena i migranata.

or the exclusion of women and migrants.

Ovo nije originalna ideja.

Now, this is not an original idea.

The Marxist left had that idea 100 years ago

Marksistička ljevica imala je tu ideju prije 100 godina

and it didn't go very well, did it?

i to nije baš dobro prošlo, zar ne?

The lesson that we learned from the Soviet debacle

Lekcija koju smo naučili iz sovjetskog sloma je

is that only by a miracle will the working poor be reempowered,

da će siromašni radnici jedino čudom biti ponovo emancipirani,

as they were in ancient Athens,

kao što su bili u drevnoj Ateni,

without creating new forms of brutality and waste.

bez stvaranja novih oblika brutalnosti i rasipanja.

But there is a solution:

No, postoji rješenje:

eliminate the working poor.

eliminirati siromašne radnike.

Capitalism's doing it

Kapitalizam to radi

by replacing low-wage workers with automata, androids, robots.

zamjenjujući radnike s niskim prihodima automatima, androidima, robotima.

Problem je

The problem is

da dokle god su ekonomska i politička sfera odvojene,

that as long as the economic and the political spheres are separate,

automation makes the twin peaks taller,

automatizacija čini vrhove blizance još višima,

the waste loftier

rasipanje obimnijim

and the social conflicts deeper,

i društvene sukobe dubljima,

including --

uključujući --

soon, I believe --

vjerujem uskoro --

in places like China.

i u područjima poput Kine.

So we need to reconfigure,

Zato moramo preoblikovati,

we need to reunite the economic and the political spheres,

moramo ponovo ujediniti ekonomsku i političku sferu,

but we'd better do it by democratizing the reunified sphere,

ali bilo bi bolje da to učinimo demokratizacijom objedinjene sfere,

lest we end up with a surveillance-mad hyperautocracy

kako ne bi na kraju imali hiper-autokraciju opsjednutu nadzorom

that makes The Matrix, the movie, look like a documentary.

u usporedbi s kojom film Matrix izgleda kao dokumentarac.

(Laughter)

(Smijeh)

So the question is not whether capitalism will survive

Dakle, pitanje nije hoće li kapitalizam preživjeti

the technological innovations it is spawning.

tehnološke inovacije čiji je začetnik.

The more interesting question

Zanimljivije pitanje je

is whether capitalism will be succeeded by something resembling a Matrix dystopia

hoće li nakon kapitalizma slijediti nešto nalik na distopiju a la Matrix

or something much closer to a Star Trek-like society,

ili nešto puno bliže društvu a la Star Trek

where machines serve the humans

gdje mašine služe ljudima

and the humans expend their energies exploring the universe

a ljudi svoju energiju ulažu u istraživanje svemira,

and indulging in long debates about the meaning of life

prepuštajući se dugim raspravama o značenju života

in some ancient, Athenian-like, high tech agora.

u nekoj high-tech agori poput atenskih.

I think we can afford to be optimistic.

Ja mislim da si možemo dozvoliti da budemo optimistični.

But what would it take,

No, što bi bilo potrebno,

what would it look like

kako bi to izgledalo

to have this Star Trek-like utopia, instead of the Matrix-like dystopia?

da imamo utopiju a la Star Trek umjesto distopiju a la Matrix?

In practical terms,

U praksi,

allow me to share just briefly,

dozvolite mi da ukratko izložim

a couple of examples.

par primjera.

At the level of the enterprise,

Na razini tvrtke,

imagine a capital market,

zamislite tržište kapitala,

where you earn capital as you work,

gdje radeći, istovremeno stječete kapital

and where your capital follows you from one job to another,

i gdje vas vaš kapital slijedi od jednog posla do drugog,

from one company to another,

od jedne tvrtke do druge,

and the company --

a tvrtka --

whichever one you happen to work at at that time --

za koju god radili u tom času --

is solely owned by those who happen to work in it at that moment.

je vlasništvo isključivo onih koji u njoj u tom času rade.

Then all income stems from capital, from profits,

Tada sav prihod proizlazi iz kapitala, iz profita,

and the very concept of wage labor becomes obsolete.

a sam koncept najamnog rada zastarjeva.

No more separation between those who own but do not work in the company

Nema više razdvajanja između onih koji posjeduju, ali ne rade u tvrtki

and those who work but do not own the company;

i onih koji rade, ali nisu vlasnici tvrtke;

no more tug-of-war between capital and labor;

nema više potezanja konopa između kapitala i rada;

no great gap between investment and saving;

nema velikog jaza između investiranja i štednje;

indeed, no towering twin peaks.

zapravo, nema visokih vrhova blizanaca.

At the level of the global political economy,

Na razini globalne političke ekonomije

imagine for a moment

zamislite na trenutak

that our national currencies have a free-floating exchange rate,

da naše nacionalne valute imaju fluktuirajući tečaj,

with a universal, global, digital currency,

s univerzalnom, globalnom, digitalnom valutom

one that is issued by the International Monetary Fund,

koju bi izdavao Međunarodni monetarni fond,

the G-20,

G-20,

on behalf of all humanity.

u ime cijelog čovječanstva.

And imagine further

I zamislite nadalje

that all international trade is denominated in this currency --

da se sva međunarodna trgovina denominira u tu valutu --

let's call it "the cosmos,"

hajdemo je nazvati "kozmos",

in units of cosmos --

u jedinice kozmosa --

with every government agreeing to be paying into a common fund

i da svaka vlada pristane uplaćivati u zajednički fond

a sum of cosmos units proportional to the country's trade deficit,

iznos jedinica kozmosa proporcionalan trgovinskom deficitu dotične zemlje,

or indeed to a country's trade surplus.

ili trgovinskom suficitu te zemlje.

And imagine that that fund is utilized to invest in green technologies,

I zamislite da se taj fond koristi za investiranje u zelene tehnologije,

especially in parts of the world where investment funding is scarce.

posebno u dijelovima svijeta s oskudnim investicijskim financiranjem.

This is not a new idea.

Ovo nije nova ideja.

It's what, effectively, John Maynard Keynes proposed

To je, praktički, predlagao John Maynard Keynes

in 1944 at the Bretton Woods Conference.

1944. na konferenciji u Breton Woodsu.

The problem is

Problem je u tome što

that back then, they didn't have the technology to implement it.

u to vrijeme nisu imali tehnologiju da bi to implementirali.

Now we do,

Sada je imamo,

especially in the context of a reunified political-economic sphere.

posebno u kontekstu objedinjene političko-ekonomske sfere.

The world that I am describing to you

Svijet koji vam opisujem

is simultaneously libertarian,

istovremeno je libertarijanski,

in that it prioritizes empowered individuals,

po tome što daje prednost emancipiranim pojedincima,

Marxist,

marksistički,

since it will have confined to the dustbin of history

budući da će zatvoriti u ropotarnicu povijesti

the division between capital and labor,

podjelu između kapitala i rada,

and Keynesian,

i kejnzianski,

global Keynesian.

globalno kejnzianski.

But above all else,

No, prije svega,

it is a world in which we will be able to imagine an authentic democracy.

to je svijet u kojem ćemo moći zamisliti autentičnu demokraciju.

Will such a world dawn?

Hoće li takav svijet osvanuti?

Or shall we descend into a Matrix-like dystopia?

Ili ćemo se spustiti u distopiju a la Matrix?

The answer lies in the political choice that we shall be making collectively.

Odgovor leži u političkom izboru koji ćemo kolektivno činiti.

It is our choice,

To je naš izbor,

and we'd better make it democratically.

i bolje bi nam bilo da ga načinimo demokratski.

Thank you.

Hvala.

(Applause)

(Pljesak)

Bruno Giussani: Yanis ...

Bruno Giussani: Yanis ...

It was you who described yourself in your bios as a libertarian Marxist.

U svojoj biografiji sami ste se opisali kao libertarijanski marksist.

What is the relevance of Marx's analysis today?

Koja je važnost marksističke analize danas?

Yanis Varoufakis: Pa, ako ima ikakve važnosti u onome

Yanis Varoufakis: Well, if there was any relevance in what I just said,

što sam upravo rekao onda je Marx važan.

then Marx is relevant.

Zato jer je cijela poanta objedinjavanja političkog i ekonomskog --

Because the whole point of reunifying the political and economic is --

if we don't do it,

ako to ne učinimo,

then technological innovation is going to create

tehnološke inovacije će stvoriti

such a massive fall in aggregate demand,

takav masivni pad agregatne potražnje,

what Larry Summers refers to as secular stagnation.

kojeg Larry Summers naziva sekularna stagnacija.

With this crisis migrating from one part of the world,

S ovom krizom koja migrira iz jednog dijela svijeta,

as it is now,

kao što je to sada,

it will destabilize not only our democracies,

to će destabilizirati ne samo naše demokracije,

but even the emerging world that is not that keen on liberal democracy.

nego čak svijet koji nastaje, a koji nije baš sklon liberalnoj demokraciji.

So if this analysis holds water, then Marx is absolutely relevant.

Pa, ako ova analiza ima smisla, onda je Marx apsolutno relevantan.

But so is Hayek,

Ali isto tako je i Hayek,

that's why I'm a libertarian Marxist,

zbog toga sam ja libertarijanski marksista,

and so is Keynes,

a isto tako i Keynes,

so that's why I'm totally confused.

pa sam zato potpuno zbunjen.

(Laughter)

(Smijeh)

BG: Indeed, and possibly we are too, now.

BG: Zaista, i vjerojatno nas je sad dvoje.

(Laughter)

(Smijeh)

(Applause)

(Pljesak)

YV: If you are not confused, you are not thinking, OK?

YV: Ako niste zbunjeni, onda ne mislite, zar ne?

BG: That's a very, very Greek philosopher kind of thing to say --

BG: To ste rekli baš kao grčki filozof --

YV: That was Einstein, actually --

YV: Ustvari, to je bio Einstein --

BG: During your talk you mentioned Singapore and China,

BG: U svom govoru spomenuli ste Singapur i Kinu,

and last night at the speaker dinner,

a jučer na večeri za govornike,

you expressed a pretty strong opinion about how the West looks at China.

izniijeli ste prilično čvrst stav o tome kako Zapad gleda na Kinu.

Would you like to share that?

Biste li ga podijelili s nama?

YV: Well, there's a great degree of hypocrisy.

YV: Pa, postoji visok stupanj licemjerja.

In our liberal democracies, we have a semblance of democracy.

U našim liberalnim demokracijama mi imamo privid demokracije.

It's because we have confined, as I was saying in my talk,

To je zato jer smo ograničili, kao što sam već rekao,

democracy to the political sphere,

demokraciju na političku sferu,

while leaving the one sphere where all the action is --

ostavljajući onu sferu u kojoj se sve zbiva --

the economic sphere --

ekonomsku sferu --

a completely democracy-free zone.

zonom potpuno lišenom demokracije.

In a sense,

Na neki način,

if I am allowed to be provocative,

ako smijem biti provokativan,

China today is closer to Britain in the 19th century.

Kina je danas bliža Britaniji u 19. stoljeću.

Because remember,

Jer, sjećate se,

we tend to associate liberalism with democracy --

mi smo skloni liberalizam povezivati sa demokracijom --

that's a mistake, historically.

to je pogrešno, povijesno.

Liberalism, liberal, it's like John Stuart Mill.

Liberalizam, liberal, to je kao John Stuart Mill.

John Stuart Mill was particularly skeptical about the democratic process.

John Stuart Mill je bio posebno skeptičan u vezi demokratskog procesa.

So what you are seeing now in China is a very similar process

Pa ono što danas vidite u Kini je vrlo sličan proces

to the one that we had in Britain during the Industrial Revolution,

onome što smo imali u Britaniji tijekom Industrijske revolucije,

especially the transition from the first to the second.

posebno prijelaza iz prve u drugu.

And to be castigating China

I kažnjavanje Kine

for doing that which the West did in the 19th century,

jer radi ono što je Zapad radio u 19. stoljeću,

smacks of hypocrisy.

miriše na licemjerje.

BG: I am sure that many people here are wondering about your experience

BG: Siguran sam da mnoge ljude ovdje zanima vaše iskustvo

as the Finance Minister of Greece earlier this year.

kao ministra financija Grčke, ranije ove godine.

YV: I knew this was coming.

YV: Znao sam da ovo slijedi.

BG: Yes.

BG: Da.

BG: Six months after,

BG: Šest mjeseci poslije,

how do you look back at the first half of the year?

kako gledate unazad na prvu polovinu godine?

YV: Extremely exciting, from a personal point of view,

YV: Izuzetno uzbudljivo, s mog osobnog stanovišta,

and very disappointing,

i vrlo razočaravajuće,

because we had an opportunity to reboot the Eurozone.

jer smo imali priliku iznova pokrenuti Eurozonu.

Not just Greece, the Eurozone.

Ne samo Grčku, Eurozonu.

To move away from the complacency

Odmaknuti se od samodopadnosti

and the constant denial that there was a massive --

i stalnog poricanja da postoji masivni --

and there is a massive architectural fault line

a postoji masivni arhitektonski rasjed

going through the Eurozone,

kroz Eurozonu

which is threatening, massively, the whole of the European Union process.

koji je ozbiljna prijetnja cijelom procesu Europske unije.

We had an opportunity on the basis of the Greek program --

Mi smo imali priliku da na temelju grčkog programa

which by the way,

koji je, usput rečeno,

was the first program to manifest that denial --

bio prvi program koji je pokazao to poricanje --

to put it right.

to ispravimo.

And, unfortunately,

I, nažalost,

the powers in the Eurozone,

moćnici u Eurozoni,

in the Eurogroup,

u Eurogrupi,

chose to maintain denial.

odabrali su nastaviti poricanje.

But you know what happens.

No, znate što se događa.

This is the experience of the Soviet Union.

To je iskustvo Sovjetskog saveza.

When you try to keep alive

Kada pokušavate održati na životu

an economic system that architecturally cannot survive,

ekonomski sustav koji arhitektonski ne može preživjeti,

through political will and through authoritarianism,

kroz političku volju i kroz autoritarnost,

you may succeed in prolonging it,

možda ćete uspjeti produžiti ga,

but when change happens

no kada se dogode promjene

it happens very abruptly and catastrophically.

to se događa vrlo naglo i katastrofično.

BG: What kind of change are you foreseeing?

BG: Kakvu vrstu promjene predviđate?

YV: Well, there's no doubt

YV: Pa, nema sumnje

that if we don't change the architecture of the Eurozone,

da ako ne promijenimo arhitekturu Eurozone,

the Eurozone has no future.

Eurozona nema budućnosti.

BG: Did you make any mistakes when you were Finance Minister?

BG: Jeste li činili greške dok ste bili ministar financija?

YV: Every day.

YV: Svaki dan.

BG: For example? YV: Anybody who looks back --

BG: Na primjer? YV: Svatko tko pogleda unazad --

(Applause)

(Pljesak)

No, but seriously.

Ne, ozbiljno.

If there's any Minister of Finance, or of anything else for that matter,

Ako postoji ijedan ministar financija, ili bilo čega drugog,

who tells you after six months in a job,

koji vam kaže, nakon šest mjeseci na poslu,

especially in such a stressful situation,

pogotovo u tako stresnoj situaciji,

da nije učinio niti jednu grešku, to je opasan čovjek.

that they have made no mistake, they're dangerous people.

Of course I made mistakes.

Naravno da sam činio greške.

Najveća greška bila je potpisivanje molbe

The greatest mistake was to sign the application

for the extension of a loan agreement

za produljenje sporazuma o zajmu

in the end of February.

krajem veljače.

I was imagining

Ja sam zamišljao

that there was a genuine interest on the side of the creditors

da postoji istinski interes na strani kreditora

to find common ground.

da se nađe zajedničko rješenje.

And there wasn't.

A nije ga bilo.

They were simply interested in crushing our government,

Njih je zanimalo samo da sruše našu vladu,

just because they did not want

samo zato jer nisu željeli

to have to deal with the architectural fault lines

da se moraju baviti arhitektonskim rasjedima

that were running through the Eurozone.

koji se se protezali kroz Europu.

And because they didn't want to admit

I zato jer nisu željeli priznati

that for five years they were implementing a catastrophic program in Greece.

da su pet godina provodili katastrofalni program u Grčkoj.

We lost one-third of our nominal GDP.

Mi smo izgubili trećinu našeg nominalnog BDP-a.

This is worse than the Great Depression.

To je gore od Velike depresije.

A nitko nije priznao,

And no one has come clean

from the troika of lenders that have been imposing this policy

od trojke zajmodavaca koja je nametala te mjere,

to say, "This was a colossal mistake."

i rekao, "Ovo je bila ogromna greška."

BG: Despite all this,

BG: Unatoč svemu tomu,

and despite the aggressiveness of the discussion,

i unatoč agresivnosti diskusije,

vi izgleda ostajete prilično pro-europski.

you seem to be remaining quite pro-European.

YV: Absolutely.

YV: Apsolutno.

Look, my criticism of the European Union and the Eurozone

Gledajte, moj kriticizam Europske unije i Eurozone

comes from a person who lives and breathes Europe.

dolazi od osobe koja živi i diše Europu.

My greatest fear is that the Eurozone will not survive.

Moj najveći strah je da Eurozona neće preživjeti.

Because if it doesn't,

Zato jer ako neće,

the centrifugal forces that will be unleashed

centrifugalne sile koje će biti oslobođene

will be demonic,

bit će demonske,

and they will destroy the European Union.

i uništiti će Europsku uniju.

And that will be catastrophic not just for Europe

I to će biti katastrofalno, ne samo za Europu

but for the whole global economy.

nego za cijelu globalnu ekonomiju.

We are probably the largest economy in the world.

Mi smo vjerojatno najveća ekonomija na svijetu.

And if we allow ourselves

I ako si mi dozvolimo

to fall into a route of the postmodern 1930's,

da upadnemo u pravac postmodernih 1930.-tih,

which seems to me to be what we are doing,

a meni se čini da je to ono što radimo,

then that will be detrimental

tada će to biti na uštrb

to the future of Europeans and non-Europeans alike.

budućih Europljana kao i ne-europljana.

BG: We definitely hope you are wrong on that point.

BG: Definitivno se nadamo da ste u krivu o tome.

Yanis, thank you for coming to TED.

Yanis, hvala na dolasku na TED.

YV: Thank you.

YV: Hvala vama.

(Applause)

(Pljesak)