Capitalism will eat democracy -- unless we speak up | Yanis Varoufakis

Translator: Bob Wang Reviewer: Alan Watson

Democracy.

民主

In the West,

活喺西方社會嘅我哋犯咗個好大嘅錯

we make a colossal mistake taking it for granted.

就係視民主理所當然

We see democracy

雖然民主係一朵最脆弱嘅花

not as the most fragile of flowers that it really is,

但我哋冇將民主視為一朵最脆弱嘅花

我哋反而視佢為社會嘅擺設品

but we see it as part of our society's furniture.

We tend to think of it as an intransigent given.

我哋往往覺得佢係必然嘅

We mistakenly believe that capitalism begets inevitably democracy.

我哋以為資本主義會帶嚟民主

It doesn't.

但唔係

Singapore's Lee Kuan Yew and his great imitators in Beijing

新加坡前總理李光耀 同埋北京一班好似佢咁嘅人

have demonstrated beyond reasonable doubt

說服到人

繁華嘅資本市場同顯著嘅增長

that it is perfectly possible to have a flourishing capitalism,

spectacular growth,

係絕對可以出現喺極權政體裏面

while politics remains democracy-free.

Indeed, democracy is receding in our neck of the woods,

事實上，民主喺歐洲一帶倒退緊

here in Europe.

Earlier this year, while I was representing Greece --

今年初，我代表希臘

the newly elected Greek government --

代表當時啱啱新選出嘅希臘政府

in the Eurogroup as its Finance Minister,

以財長身份出席歐元集團會議

I was told in no uncertain terms that our nation's democratic process --

我被清楚告知

希臘嘅民主進程、我哋嘅選舉

our elections --

could not be allowed to interfere

唔可以干預

with economic policies that were being implemented in Greece.

希臘即將被落實嘅經濟政策

At that moment,

當時我覺得李光耀或者中國共產黨

I felt that there could be no greater vindication of Lee Kuan Yew,

都唔會有更加好嘅辯護藉口

or the Chinese Communist Party,

indeed of some recalcitrant friends of mine who kept telling me

而且有幾個固執嘅朋友不斷同我講

如果民主真係可以改變任何嘢

that democracy would be banned if it ever threatened to change anything.

民主就會被打壓

Tonight, here, I want to present to you

今晚喺度，我想同你哋講

an economic case for an authentic democracy.

一個真正民主社會底下嘅經濟情況

I want to ask you to join me in believing again

我想請大家同我一齊再次睇清楚

that Lee Kuan Yew,

李光耀、中國共產黨同埋歐元集團

the Chinese Communist Party

and indeed the Eurogroup

are wrong in believing that we can dispense with democracy --

以為我哋可以分配民主

that we need an authentic, boisterous democracy.

但我哋真正要嘅

係一個真正、多人參與嘅民主

And without democracy,

冇咗民主，我哋社會會唔掂

our societies will be nastier,

our future bleak

未來會暗淡，新科技亦都會浪費

and our great, new technologies wasted.

Speaking of waste,

講起浪費

allow me to point out an interesting paradox

等我指出一個好有趣 會要脅我哋經濟嘅悖論

that is threatening our economies as we speak.

I call it the twin peaks paradox.

我叫佢做「雙峰悖論」

One peak you understand --

第一個峰你哋知道嘅

you know it, you recognize it --

is the mountain of debts that has been casting a long shadow

就係喺美國，歐洲，以至全球

債台高築構成長期陰霾

over the United States, Europe, the whole world.

We all recognize the mountain of debts.

我哋知道有好多債務

But few people discern its twin.

但好少人意識到佢有個孖生兄弟

A mountain of idle cash

一座由有錢人同大機構嘅閑置資金 砌出嚟嘅山峰

belonging to rich savers and to corporations,

佢哋唔夠膽投資佢哋嘅存款 去一啲製造營利嘅生產活動度

too terrified to invest it

into the productive activities that can generate the incomes

from which you can extinguish the mountain of debts

呢啲生產活動其實可以償還債務

and which can produce all those things that humanity desperately needs,

仲可以製造人類急需要用嘅嘢

例如可再生能源

like green energy.

Now let me give you two numbers.

依家，我想講兩個數字

Over the last three months,

喺過去三個月入面

in the United States, in Britain and in the Eurozone,

我哋喺美國，英國同歐元區 各種可以製造財富嘅商品

we have invested, collectively, 3.4 trillion dollars

on all the wealth-producing goods --

總共投資咗 3.4 萬億美元

things like industrial plants, machinery,

好似有工廠、機械廠、寫字樓

office blocks, schools,

學校、道路、鐵路、機械等

roads, railways, machinery, and so on and so forth.

$3.4 trillion sounds like a lot of money

3.4 萬億美元聽落好似好多錢

until you compare it to the $5.1 trillion

直至你攞佢同 5.1 萬億美元比較

that has been slushing around in the same countries,

呢一筆 5.1 萬億嘅資金

喺同一批國家嘅金融機構裏面

in our financial institutions,

doing absolutely nothing during the same period

除咗加劇股票市場通脹

令房價上升之外

except inflating stock exchanges and bidding up house prices.

喺同一期間就再冇發揮過任何作用

So a mountain of debt and a mountain of idle cash

所以呢，一座債務嘅山 同一座閑置現金嘅山

form twin peaks, failing to cancel each other out

形成兩座山峰

兩者都冇通過正常市場運作抵消對方

through the normal operation of the markets.

The result is stagnant wages,

結果造成薪酬停滯

more than a quarter of 25- to 54-year-olds in America, in Japan and in Europe

喺美國，日本同歐洲

就有超過四分之一 介乎 25 至 54 歲嘅人冇工做

out of work.

And consequently, low aggregate demand,

跟住，經濟總需求就會 進入永無止境嘅減退周期

which in a never-ending cycle,

reinforces the pessimism of the investors,

令投資者對前景更悲觀

who, fearing low demand, reproduce it by not investing --

投資者怕咗低需求量 於是唔再投資

exactly like Oedipus' father,

就好似伊底帕斯王嘅老竇

who, terrified by the prophecy of the oracle

被神預言佢個仔大個之後會殺死佢

that his son would grow up to kill him,

佢好驚

unwittingly engineered the conditions

但佢亦無意中營造咗被殺嘅條件出嚟

that ensured that Oedipus, his son, would kill him.

令佢個仔伊底帕斯王真係殺咗佢

This is my quarrel with capitalism.

呢個就係我對資本主義嘅爭論

Its gross wastefulness,

資本主義造成浪費

all this idle cash,

資本主義之下閑置嘅錢早就應該

should be energized to improve lives,

用嚟提高人類生活水平、發展人才

to develop human talents,

and indeed to finance all these technologies,

同埋資助開發可再生能源科技

green technologies,

which are absolutely essential for saving planet Earth.

呢啲科技對保護地球好重要

Am I right in believing that democracy might be the answer?

咁民主可唔可以扭轉呢一切？

I believe so,

我相信得

but before we move on,

但行動之前，我哋要知究竟咩係民主

what do we mean by democracy?

Aristotle defined democracy

亞里士多德定義民主做︰

as the constitution in which the free and the poor,

當自由嘅人同窮人 佔體制大多數控制政府

being in the majority, control government.

Now, of course Athenian democracy excluded too many.

當然，雅典時代嘅民主 將太多人排除在外

Women, migrants and, of course, the slaves.

當中包括女人、移民、奴隸

但係，如果因為呢啲被排除嘅人

But it would be a mistake

to dismiss the significance of ancient Athenian democracy

而忽視古雅典民主嘅成功之處

on the basis of whom it excluded.

咁係錯嘅

What was more pertinent,

雅典民主裏邊更值得肯定嘅係

and continues to be so about ancient Athenian democracy,

而且就算時至今日仍然值得肯定嘅係

was the inclusion of the working poor,

佢囊括埋勞動階級

who not only acquired the right to free speech,

令佢哋唔單止有言論自由嘅權利

but more importantly, crucially,

更重要、更重要嘅係 佢哋有權批評政治

they acquired the rights to political judgments

that were afforded equal weight

而且佢哋嘅意見 對國家決策係同等重要

in the decision-making concerning matters of state.

Now, of course, Athenian democracy didn't last long.

古雅典民主持續咗唔係好耐

Like a candle that burns brightly, it burned out quickly.

就好似一枝好光嘅蠟燭好快就燒完

And indeed,

的而且確

our liberal democracies today do not have their roots in ancient Athens.

現今嘅自由民主唔係嚟自古雅典

They have their roots in the Magna Carta,

佢哋源自 1688 年 光榮革命時期嘅美國憲法

in the 1688 Glorious Revolution,

indeed in the American constitution.

或者嚟自大憲章

Whereas Athenian democracy was focusing on the masterless citizen

而雅典民主關注嘅係普通平民

授權予貧苦勞動階級

and empowering the working poor,

our liberal democracies are founded on the Magna Carta tradition,

我哋嘅自由民主 建立喺大憲章嘅傳統上面

which was, after all, a charter for masters.

但點都好，大憲章都係有錢人嘅憲章

And indeed, liberal democracy only surfaced when it was possible

當政治領域同經濟領域分開

to separate fully the political sphere from the economic sphere,

而民主進程受制於政治領域裏面時

so as to confine the democratic process fully in the political sphere,

經濟領域，或者商業世界

就會變成一個冇民主成份嘅地方

leaving the economic sphere --

the corporate world, if you want --

as a democracy-free zone.

咁樣，自由民主先會出現

Now, in our democracies today,

我哋今時今日嘅民主 將經濟由政治領域分出嚟

this separation of the economic from the political sphere,

the moment it started happening,

呢一切開始發生嘅時候

it gave rise to an inexorable, epic struggle between the two,

亦同時引發兩者之間 無可避免嘅長期戰爭

with the economic sphere colonizing the political sphere,

經濟領域殖民統治政治領域

eating into its power.

經濟領域將政治領域嘅權利吞噬

Have you wondered why politicians are not what they used to be?

你哋有冇諗過點解

宜家嘅政治家同以前嘅佢哋唔同？

It's not because their DNA has degenerated.

唔係因為佢哋 DNA 變咗

（笑聲）

(Laughter)

It is rather because one can be in government today and not in power,

而係因為依家 喺政府做嘢嘅人已經冇權力

because power has migrated from the political to the economic sphere,

因為權力已經從政治領域轉移到

同政治領域無關嘅經濟領域

which is separate.

Indeed,

講真，以上就係我憎資本主義嘅地方

I spoke about my quarrel with capitalism.

If you think about it,

你諗下，好似一班肉食動物

it is a little bit like a population of predators,

that are so successful in decimating the prey that they must feed on,

殺死咗大量佢哋懶以生存嘅獵物

that in the end they starve.

最後唯有自己挨餓

Similarly,

同樣道理

the economic sphere has been colonizing and cannibalizing the political sphere

經濟領域殖民同吞食咗政治領域

to such an extent that it is undermining itself,

喺呢種情況下佢其實削弱嘅係自己

令自己面臨經濟危機

causing economic crisis.

Corporate power is increasing,

企業勢力崛起緊，但政治勢力減緊

political goods are devaluing,

inequality is rising,

唔平等嘅問題加劇緊

aggregate demand is falling

總需求又下跌梗

and CEOs of corporations are too scared to invest the cash of their corporations.

企業總裁怕投資自己公司啲錢去第度

So the more capitalism succeeds in taking the demos out of democracy,

資本主義越係將人從民主裏面剔除

the taller the twin peaks

兩座負債同閑錢嘅山峰就會越嚟越高

and the greater the waste of human resources

人力資源同人類財富亦會越嚟越浪費

and humanity's wealth.

Clearly, if this is right,

好明顯，如果咁樣嘅推測係啱嘅話

we must reunite the political and economic spheres

我哋就必須要合返埋政治同經濟領域

and better do it with a demos being in control,

最好可以畀人民控制大局

like in ancient Athens except without the slaves

就好似古雅典一樣

但奴隸、女人同移民唔包括在內

or the exclusion of women and migrants.

Now, this is not an original idea.

呢樣嘢並唔係咩新概念

The Marxist left had that idea 100 years ago

馬克思主義者一百年前就有咁嘅諗法

and it didn't go very well, did it?

但佢哋嘅諗法唔係發展得好好

The lesson that we learned from the Soviet debacle

我哋從蘇聯解體學到

is that only by a miracle will the working poor be reempowered,

只有奇蹟先可以 令勞動階層重新獲得權力

as they were in ancient Athens,

就好似古代雅典冇帶嚟 新形式嘅暴行同浪費咁

without creating new forms of brutality and waste.

But there is a solution:

但有一個解决辦法：消滅勞動階層

eliminate the working poor.

Capitalism's doing it

資本主義正係做緊呢樣嘢

by replacing low-wage workers with automata, androids, robots.

佢通過自動程式、安卓系統、機械人

取代低薪嘅勞動力

The problem is

問題係只要經濟同政治領域一直分離

that as long as the economic and the political spheres are separate,

automation makes the twin peaks taller,

自動化過程會令 兩座負債同閑錢嘅山峰更加高

the waste loftier

加劇浪費，同埋加深社會矛盾

and the social conflicts deeper,

including --

我相信中國呢類地方會好快發生咁嘅事

soon, I believe --

in places like China.

So we need to reconfigure,

因此我哋要改造

we need to reunite the economic and the political spheres,

我哋要將經濟領域同政治領域拉返埋

but we'd better do it by democratizing the reunified sphere,

方法就係將兩個領域民主化

lest we end up with a surveillance-mad hyperautocracy

以免我哋最終生活喺 一個監控狂、超專制嘅制度下

that makes The Matrix, the movie, look like a documentary.

如果唔係《駭客任務》電影 就好容易變成紀錄片

（笑聲）

(Laughter)

So the question is not whether capitalism will survive

問題唔係資本主義可以承受 自己帶嚟嘅科技創新

the technological innovations it is spawning.

The more interesting question

最令我感興趣嘅係

is whether capitalism will be succeeded by something resembling a Matrix dystopia

資本主義會唔會畀《駭客任務》 入面嘅敵托邦取代

or something much closer to a Star Trek-like society,

又或者好似《星際迷航》嘅社會取代

where machines serve the humans

《星際迷航》裏面，機械服務人類

and the humans expend their energies exploring the universe

而人類就擴張能量，探索星際

and indulging in long debates about the meaning of life

同埋喺一啲類似 古雅典嘅高科技集會度

in some ancient, Athenian-like, high tech agora.

喋喋不休咁討論人生意義

I think we can afford to be optimistic.

我覺得我哋可以樂觀啲睇

But what would it take,

但要擁有《星際迷航》嘅烏托邦 或者《駭客任務》嘅敵托邦

what would it look like

to have this Star Trek-like utopia, instead of the Matrix-like dystopia?

我哋要做啲咩呢？

In practical terms,

等我略略講下幾個例子

allow me to share just briefly,

a couple of examples.

At the level of the enterprise,

企業層面上，你可以想像一個資金市場

imagine a capital market,

where you earn capital as you work,

喺嗰度，你只要工作就可以賺取資金

and where your capital follows you from one job to another,

即使你轉工、轉公司

你賺嘅資金都會跟住你

from one company to another,

and the company --

而每間公司都係由嗰度做嘢嘅人持有

whichever one you happen to work at at that time --

is solely owned by those who happen to work in it at that moment.

Then all income stems from capital, from profits,

所有收入嚟自資本同利潤

and the very concept of wage labor becomes obsolete.

僱傭概念最後會過時

No more separation between those who own but do not work in the company

唔會再有人擁有但冇為公司工作

and those who work but do not own the company;

或者冇擁有公司但為公司工作

no more tug-of-war between capital and labor;

唔會再有資本階級 同勞動階級之間嘅鬥爭

no great gap between investment and saving;

投資、儲蓄之間再唔會有大嘅差距

indeed, no towering twin peaks.

亦再冇兩座高聳入雲嘅賃務同閑錢嘅山

At the level of the global political economy,

至於全球政治型經濟層面

可以想像一下

imagine for a moment

that our national currencies have a free-floating exchange rate,

我哋國家貨幣同一個

由國際貨幣基金組織同 G20 峰會 代表全人類發行嘅全球性數碼貨幣

with a universal, global, digital currency,

one that is issued by the International Monetary Fund,

有自由浮動匯率

the G-20,

on behalf of all humanity.

And imagine further

再想像下

that all international trade is denominated in this currency --

所有國際貿易都用呢隻貨幣進行

let's call it "the cosmos,"

我哋就稱佢為「宇宙幣」

in units of cosmos --

with every government agreeing to be paying into a common fund

每個政府都會根據自己國家 貿易逆差或者順差

a sum of cosmos units proportional to the country's trade deficit,

向一個共同基金按比例投入宇宙幣

or indeed to a country's trade surplus.

And imagine that that fund is utilized to invest in green technologies,

想像呢個基金用嚟投資 全世界可再生能源科技

especially in parts of the world where investment funding is scarce.

尤其投資到世界上資金唔到嘅地方

This is not a new idea.

呢個唔係新構思

It's what, effectively, John Maynard Keynes proposed

實際上，佢係由凱恩斯 1944 年

in 1944 at the Bretton Woods Conference.

喺布列敦森林會議上提出嘅

The problem is

問題係當時佢哋冇科技實現呢個理念

that back then, they didn't have the technology to implement it.

Now we do,

但依家我哋有啦

especially in the context of a reunified political-economic sphere.

尤其當政治同經濟領域重新走埋一齊

The world that I am describing to you

我描述梗嘅呢個世界同時係自由嘅

is simultaneously libertarian,

in that it prioritizes empowered individuals,

佢將被賜權力嘅人 同馬克思主義者擺喺首位

Marxist,

since it will have confined to the dustbin of history

因為咁樣

資本同勞動階層之間嘅分別 同埋凱恩斯主義

the division between capital and labor,

and Keynesian,

會消失喺歷史長河裏面

global Keynesian.

But above all else,

但總言之

it is a world in which we will be able to imagine an authentic democracy.

呢個係一個我哋能夠 想像到真正民主嘅世界

Will such a world dawn?

咁嘅世界會唔會出現呢？

Or shall we descend into a Matrix-like dystopia?

或者我哋會淪落到好似 《黑客帝國》咁嘅反烏德邦？

The answer lies in the political choice that we shall be making collectively.

答案就喺我哋大家 要做嘅政治決擇入面

It is our choice,

呢個係我哋嘅選擇

and we'd better make it democratically.

而我哋最好用民主方式決定

Thank you.

多謝

(Applause)

（掌聲）

Bruno Giussani: Yanis ...

主持︰瓦魯法基斯⋯

It was you who described yourself in your bios as a libertarian Marxist.

你喺自我介紹入面叫自己做 自由派馬克思主義者

What is the relevance of Marx's analysis today?

咁分析馬克思主義 同現今世界有咩關係呢？

講者：如果我投先講嘅内容 有相關嘅地方

Yanis Varoufakis: Well, if there was any relevance in what I just said,

咁馬克思主義就係有參考價值

then Marx is relevant.

Because the whole point of reunifying the political and economic is --

因為重新連起政治 同經濟領域嘅重點係

if we don't do it,

如果我哋唔做

then technological innovation is going to create

咁科技創新就會導致總需求大幅下跌

such a massive fall in aggregate demand,

what Larry Summers refers to as secular stagnation.

亦即係 Larry Summers 所講嘅經濟長期停滯

With this crisis migrating from one part of the world,

隨住危機由世界某一度向外擴散

as it is now,

就好似而家咁

it will destabilize not only our democracies,

佢唔單止令我哋嘅民主制度唔穩定

but even the emerging world that is not that keen on liberal democracy.

仲會沖擊唔係特别歡迎 自由民主嘅發展中國家

So if this analysis holds water, then Marx is absolutely relevant.

如果呢個論述成立嘅話 咁馬克思主義絕對係相關嘅

而哈耶克論述都係

But so is Hayek,

that's why I'm a libertarian Marxist,

呢樣就係點解我係 自由派馬克思主義者

and so is Keynes,

凱恩斯都係

so that's why I'm totally confused.

所以我自己都係矇查查

(Laughter)

（笑聲）

主持：確實係

BG: Indeed, and possibly we are too, now.

但可能我哋依家都係咁添

(Laughter)

（笑聲）

(Applause)

（掌聲）

YV: If you are not confused, you are not thinking, OK?

講者︰如果你冇覺得困惑嘅話 即係代表你冇喺度思考。得唔得？

BG: That's a very, very Greek philosopher kind of thing to say --

主持︰真係好希臘哲學家嘅講法

講者：應該係愛因斯坦至真

YV: That was Einstein, actually --

主持：你提到新加坡同中國

BG: During your talk you mentioned Singapore and China,

仲有琴晚喺演講嘉賓晚宴

and last night at the speaker dinner,

you expressed a pretty strong opinion about how the West looks at China.

你對西方點樣看待中國一事上 表達咗強烈嘅觀點

Would you like to share that?

你想唔想同我哋講下？

YV: Well, there's a great degree of hypocrisy.

講者：嗯，偽善嘅面孔有好多

In our liberal democracies, we have a semblance of democracy.

而喺我哋自由民主制度之下

我哋有虛有其表嘅民主

It's because we have confined, as I was saying in my talk,

因為正如我剛才所講

我哋框死咗民主喺政治領域裏面

democracy to the political sphere,

while leaving the one sphere where all the action is --

以致當去到經濟領域時

the economic sphere --

所有動作都係唔民主嘅

a completely democracy-free zone.

In a sense,

可以咁講

if I am allowed to be provocative,

激進啲咁講

China today is closer to Britain in the 19th century.

中國今時今日就好似 19 世紀嘅英國

Because remember,

因為記得當時

we tend to associate liberalism with democracy --

我哋將自由主義同民主唥埋一齊

that's a mistake, historically.

但呢個係歷史上嘅錯誤

Liberalism, liberal, it's like John Stuart Mill.

自由主義就好似 John Stuart Mill 所諗

John Stuart Mill 對民主進程特別懷疑

John Stuart Mill was particularly skeptical about the democratic process.

So what you are seeing now in China is a very similar process

宜家你見到嘅中國 同工業革命時期嘅英國—

尤其是由第一次到第二次 工業革命過渡期嘅英國

to the one that we had in Britain during the Industrial Revolution,

especially the transition from the first to the second.

有一個非常相似嘅過程

And to be castigating China

用西方社會 19 世紀 做過嘅事嚟斥責中國

for doing that which the West did in the 19th century,

smacks of hypocrisy.

實在太虚偽啦

BG: I am sure that many people here are wondering about your experience

主持：我相信在座好多人都對你今年初

as the Finance Minister of Greece earlier this year.

出任希臘財政部長嘅經歷好奇

YV: I knew this was coming.

講者：我都知你會問呢個問題

BG: Yes.

主持：冇錯

BG: Six months after,

咁六個月之後，你點睇頭半年嘅經歷？

how do you look back at the first half of the year?

YV: Extremely exciting, from a personal point of view,

講者：就我個人嚟講，係非常興奮

and very disappointing,

亦非常失望

because we had an opportunity to reboot the Eurozone.

因為我哋有機會重振歐元區

Not just Greece, the Eurozone.

不單只希臘，而係歐元區

To move away from the complacency

令成個區走出自滿

and the constant denial that there was a massive --

同唔再拒絕承認…

and there is a massive architectural fault line

宜家有一條結構性嘅裂痕 横跨成個歐元區

going through the Eurozone,

which is threatening, massively, the whole of the European Union process.

威脅到歐盟發展

We had an opportunity on the basis of the Greek program --

我哋曾經喺希臘項目裏面 有咁嘅機會做好去

呢個希臘項目係第一個計劃 解决呢啲拒認嘅問題

which by the way,

was the first program to manifest that denial --

to put it right.

不幸嘅係

And, unfortunately,

the powers in the Eurozone,

歐元區嘅權勢

in the Eurogroup,

歐元集團嘅權勢

仍然選擇繼續否認問題存在

chose to maintain denial.

但你知道有嘢會發生

But you know what happens.

This is the experience of the Soviet Union.

蘇聯嘅經驗已經講咗畀我哋知

When you try to keep alive

如果你想令根本生存唔到嘅經濟系统

an economic system that architecturally cannot survive,

通過政治意願或者 威權主義嘅方式繼續生存

through political will and through authoritarianism,

你可能成功將佢延長壽命

you may succeed in prolonging it,

but when change happens

但係當改變來臨時

it happens very abruptly and catastrophically.

事情就會好突然，而且災難性

主持︰你希望見到咩變化？

BG: What kind of change are you foreseeing?

講者：嗯，無容置疑

YV: Well, there's no doubt

that if we don't change the architecture of the Eurozone,

如果我哋唔改變歐元區嘅架構

歐元區係唔會有將來

the Eurozone has no future.

BG: Did you make any mistakes when you were Finance Minister?

主持：當你做希臘財長嗰時

你有冇做過錯誤嘅决定？

YV: Every day.

講者：日日都有

主持：例如？ 講者：任何人面對過去…

BG: For example? YV: Anybody who looks back --

(Applause)

（掌聲）

No, but seriously.

唔係，認真咁講

If there's any Minister of Finance, or of anything else for that matter,

如果有一位財政部長 或者其他部長同你講

who tells you after six months in a job,

佢哋工作咗六個月之後

especially in such a stressful situation,

尤其喺咁大壓力嘅情況底下 佢哋冇做錯過事嘅話

that they have made no mistake, they're dangerous people.

呢種人其實好危險

Of course I made mistakes.

當然，我有犯過錯

我最大錯誤就係喺二月尾

The greatest mistake was to sign the application

for the extension of a loan agreement

簽咗申請延長債務協議嘅申請書

in the end of February.

I was imagining

當時我以為債權方

that there was a genuine interest on the side of the creditors

真係有興趣去搵一個共同利益

to find common ground.

And there wasn't.

但事實唔係咁

They were simply interested in crushing our government,

佢哋嘅興趣係想打壓我哋嘅政府

原因係佢哋唔想處理 歐元區嗰條結構裂痕

just because they did not want

to have to deal with the architectural fault lines

that were running through the Eurozone.

And because they didn't want to admit

同埋佢哋唔想承認

that for five years they were implementing a catastrophic program in Greece.

佢哋過去五年對希臘 實施咗惡夢嘅計劃

我哋喺失去咗三分一嘅名義 GDP

We lost one-third of our nominal GDP.

This is worse than the Great Depression.

情況比起大蕭條時更加差

喺嗰班實施呢啲政策嘅債權人之中

And no one has come clean

from the troika of lenders that have been imposing this policy

無人可以置身事外到去講 「呢個係巨大嘅錯誤」

to say, "This was a colossal mistake."

BG: Despite all this,

主持︰除咗上述 除咗呢啲進取嘅言論

and despite the aggressiveness of the discussion,

你似乎都同意歐洲一體化

you seem to be remaining quite pro-European.

YV: Absolutely.

講者：絕對係

Look, my criticism of the European Union and the Eurozone

我之所以對歐盟同歐元區嘅批評

comes from a person who lives and breathes Europe.

係因為我係一個歐洲人

My greatest fear is that the Eurozone will not survive.

我最大嘅恐懼係 歐元區無法生存落去

Because if it doesn't,

因為如果歐元區唔可以繼續走落去

the centrifugal forces that will be unleashed

咁離心力就會被解放出嚟

will be demonic,

就好似魔鬼咁解放

and they will destroy the European Union.

最終會摧毀整個歐盟

And that will be catastrophic not just for Europe

咁嘅惡果唔只對歐洲 對全球經濟都會產生嚴重影響

but for the whole global economy.

We are probably the largest economy in the world.

我哋可能係世界上最大嘅經濟體

And if we allow ourselves

如果我哋容許自己 走返 30 年代嘅舊路

to fall into a route of the postmodern 1930's,

which seems to me to be what we are doing,

雖然我覺得 我哋依家就行緊咁嘅路

then that will be detrimental

咁對歐洲人嘅未來 同埋歐洲以外嘅人嘅未來

to the future of Europeans and non-Europeans alike.

都係不利嘅

BG: We definitely hope you are wrong on that point.

主持：我哋真係好希望 呢點上面你係錯嘅

Yanis, thank you for coming to TED.

瓦魯法基斯，多謝你嚟到 TED

講者：多謝

YV: Thank you.

（掌聲）

(Applause)