Madeleine Albright: On being a woman and a diplomat

翻译人员: Angelia King 校对人员: mengyun kong

Pat Mitchell: What is the story of this pin?

帕特·米切尔：这个胸针的背后故事是什么？

Madeleine Albright: This is "Breaking the Glass Ceiling."

马德琳·奥尔布赖：这是指要打破天花板的潜规则。

PM: Oh.

PM：哦。

That was well chosen, I would say, for TEDWomen.

我想说，这是为TEDWomen大会，你精心挑选的胸针。

MA: Most of the time I spend when I get up in the morning

MA：早上起床的大多数时间

is trying to figure out what is going to happen.

我都用来思考这一天会发生什么

And none of this pin stuff would have happened

如果不提到有关萨达姆·侯赛因的胸针故事，

if it hadn't been for Saddam Hussein.

这胸针故事都不值得一提。

I'll tell you what happened.

我来告诉你所发生的事。

I went to the United Nations as an ambassador,

我做为美国驻联合国大使。

and it was after the Gulf War,

那是在海湾战争之后。

and I was an instructed ambassador.

我奉命去履行大使职责。

And the cease-fire had been translated

停战已经转变为

into a series of sanctions resolutions,

一系列制裁决议，

and my instructions

我的指示

were to say perfectly terrible things about Saddam Hussein constantly,

就是不断地说有关萨达姆·侯赛因那些可怕的事情

which he deserved -- he had invaded another country.

这是他应得的--因为他侵略了另一个国家。

And so all of a sudden, a poem appeared in the papers in Baghdad

所以突然间，在巴格达的报纸上有首诗

comparing me to many things,

把我比作许多事物

but among them an "unparalleled serpent."

但其中写到“一条无与伦比的蛇精”。

And so I happened to have a snake pin.

所以我就有了一个蛇形的胸针。

So I wore it when we talked about Iraq.

当我们谈及伊拉克时，我就带着它。

(Laughter)

（笑声）

And when I went out to meet the press,

当我出来与媒体见面，

they zeroed in, said, "Why are you wearing that snake pin?"

他们的焦点问题是“你为什么要戴蛇形胸针？”

I said, "Because Saddam Hussein compared me to an unparalleled serpent."

我说，“因为萨达姆·侯赛因把我比作一条无与伦比的蛇精。”

And then I thought, well this is fun.

之后我想想。好吧这也很有趣。

So I went out and I bought a lot of pins

之后我去买了很多胸针

that would, in fact, reflect

事实上，这些胸针会映射

what I thought we were going to do on any given day.

我当天的所思所行。

So that's how it all started.

这一切就是胸针开始的来龙去脉。

PM: So how large is the collection?

PM：那现在你收集了多少胸针了呢？

MA: Pretty big.

MA：非常多

It's now traveling.

目前收藏品在各地展示。

At the moment it's in Indianapolis,

此刻它在印第安纳波利斯，

but it was at the Smithsonian.

但它曾在史密斯森协会(联合国博物馆)。

And it goes with a book that says, "Read My Pins."

还有一本书叫“解读我的胸针。”

(Laughter)

（笑声）

PM: So is this a good idea.

PM：这真是一个棒极了的主意。

I remember when you were the first woman

我记得你做为第一位女性

as Secretary of State,

美国国务卿，

and there was a lot of conversation always

常常有很多舆论

about what you were wearing,

关注你的着装，

how you looked --

你的形象

the thing that happens to a lot of women,

这种事也发生在许多女性身上，

especially if they're the first in a position.

尤其是当她们是该职位上第一位女性时。

So how do you feel about that -- the whole --

所以你对这些所有这些事有何感想？

MA: Well, it's pretty irritating actually

MA：真的，这的确特令人厌烦

because nobody ever describes what a man is wearing.

因为从来没人去描述一位男性国务卿的着装。

But people did pay attention to what clothes I had.

但是人们特关注我的着装。

What was interesting was that,

有趣的是

before I went up to New York as U.N. ambassador,

在我去纽约胜任联合国大使前，

I talked to Jeane Kirkpatrick, who'd been ambassador before me,

我和我的前任大使珍妮·柯克帕特里克谈过

and she said, "You've got to get rid of your professor clothes.

她说，“你得放弃你的职业装。

Go out and look like a diplomat."

去购物，打扮看上去像个外交官。”

So that did give me a lot of opportunities to go shopping.

所以这让我有很多机会去购物。

But still, there were all kinds of questions

但还是有各种各样的问题

about -- "did you wear a hat?" "How short was your skirt?"

涉及到，我戴什么帽子？我的裙子有多短？

And one of the things --

一件事

if you remember Condoleezza Rice was at some event and she wore boots,

如果你记得康多莉扎·赖斯参加宴会，她穿了靴子，

and she got criticized over that.

她为此受到舆论批评。

And no guy ever gets criticized. But that's the least of it.

没有哪个男性会为此受到指责。但对女性就这么难以容忍。

PM: It is, for all of us, men and women,

PM：对我们所有人，女性和男性而言，

finding our ways of defining our roles,

我们要找到定位我们自身的方法，

and doing them in ways that make a difference in the world

为了世界上的改变

and shape the future.

和重塑未来尽我们的本职。

How did you handle that balance

你是怎么处理这种平衡关系的

between being the tough diplomatic

既要成为坚强的外交官

and strong voice of this country

又要代表我们国家

to the rest of the world

向全世界发出强有力的声音呢？

and also how you felt about yourself

你又是怎么看待你自己

as a mother, a grandmother, nurturing ...

作为一个母亲，一个祖母，“抚育”的这种母性角色呢?

and so how did you handle that?

你是怎么做到的？

MA: Well the interesting part was I was asked

MA：好吧有趣的事是我被问到

what it was like to be the first woman Secretary of State

当我被任命为第一位美国女性国务卿之后没过几分钟时，

a few minutes after I'd been named.

我做为第一位美国女性国务卿感觉咋样？

And I said, "Well I've been a woman for 60 years,

我说到，“我作为女人有60年了，

but I've only been Secretary of State for a few minutes."

但我作为国务卿仅有几分钟而已。”

So it evolved.

所以它就是这么演变来的。

(Laughter)

（笑声）

But basically I love being a woman.

但基本上我喜欢作为一个女人。

And so what happened --

随后所发生的是--

and I think there will probably be some people in the audience

我认为可能在观众中的一些人

that will identify with this --

会认同这个--

I went to my first meeting, first at the U.N.,

我首次出席在联合国的第一次会议。

and that's when this all started,

当这会议完全开始时，

because that is a very male organization.

因为联合国是一个非常男性化的组织。

And I'm sitting there -- there are 15 members of the Security Council --

我坐在那儿--共有联合国安全理事会的15个成员

so 14 men sat there staring at me,

14个男性坐在那儿盯着我，

and I thought -- well you know how we all are.

我想--好吧你知道我们一般都感觉怎么样。

You want to get the feeling of the room,

你想感受一下房间的气氛，

and "do people like me?"

别人喜欢我吗，

and "will I really say something intelligent?"

我是否要说些聪明话？

And all of a sudden I thought, "Well, wait a minute.

突然间我想到：嘿等一下，

I am sitting behind a sign that says 'The United States,'

我正坐在代表“美国”的标志后。

and if I don't speak today

假如我今天没发言

then the voice of the United States will not be heard,"

那么美国的声音就不会被听到。

and it was the first time that I had that feeling

这是第一次我感觉到

that I had to step out of myself

我必须得以突破我自己

in my normal, reluctant female mode

往常的惯性，勉强被动的女性模式

and decide that I had to speak on behalf of our country.

并决定我得代言我的祖国。

And so that happened more at various times,

随后在不同时期这样的事又接踵而至，

but I really think that there was a great advantage in many ways

但我的确认为在许多方面

to being a woman.

作为女性占有很多优势。

I think we are a lot better

我们在人际关系上

at personal relationships,

做得相当好，

and then have the capability obviously

然后我们的能力

of telling it like it is when it's necessary.

在必要时会得到更明显的发挥。

But I have to tell you, I have my youngest granddaughter,

但我得告诉大家，我最小的孙女，

when she turned seven last year,

她去年7岁时，

said to her mother, my daughter,

对她妈，我女儿说，

"So what's the big deal about Grandma Maddie being Secretary of State?

“祖母Maddie玛迪作为国务卿有什么大不了的？

Only girls are Secretary of State."

国务卿只可能是女孩啊。（现任希拉里和前任赖斯都是女性）“

(Laughter)

（笑声）

(Applause)

（掌声）

PM: Because in her lifetime -- MA: That would be so.

PM：从她出生到现在确实如此--（MA：这事实也如此。）

PM: What a change that is.

PM：这真是一个巨大的改变

As you travel now all over the world,

现在你在满世界跑，

which you do frequently,

你经常做些什么，

how do you assess

你如何评价

this global narrative around the story of women and girls?

这有关妇女和女孩参与全球议程的故事呢？

Where are we?

我们所处的现状呢？

MA: I think we're slowly changing,

MA：我们正在慢慢地改变，

but obviously there are whole pockets

但显然在一些国家

in countries where nothing is different.

所有的事都没有改变。

And therefore it means that we have to remember

因此,这意味我们得记住

that, while many of us have had huge opportunities --

虽然我们中许多人有绝好的机会--

and Pat, you have been a real leader in your field --

--帕特，你已经是你这领域里的真正领导人

is that there are a lot of women

但是还有许多女性

that are not capable

她们不能

of worrying and taking care of themselves

为她们自己设身处地地去担心和关怀

and understanding that women have to help other women.

并明白女性得互助。

And so what I have felt --

所以我感到--

and I have looked at this

我从国家安全问题上

from a national security issue --

看到这个情况

when I was Secretary of State, I decided

那时我是国务卿，我决定

that women's issues had to be central to American foreign policy,

女性的问题是美国外交政策的中心环节，

not just because I'm a feminist,

不仅仅因为我是个追求男女平等的女权主义者，

but because I believe that societies are better off

更因为我相信社会会更美好

when women are politically and economically empowered,

当女性被赋予政治上和经济上同等的权利时，

that values are passed down,

这些价值传递开来，

the health situation is better,

健康状况也会好起来，

education is better,

教育也会改善，

there is greater economic prosperity.

才会有更富强的繁荣经济。

So I think that it behooves us --

所以我认为这值得我们大家去努力--

those of us that live in various countries

我们这些人生活在不同的国家

where we do have economic and political voice --

在那里我们会有经济和政治发言权

that we need to help other women.

我们必须帮助其它女性获得同样权利。

And I really dedicated myself to that,

我自己真的投身致力于

both at the U.N. and then as Secretary of State.

在联合国做大使和随后做国务卿的工作中。

PM: And did you get pushback

PM：你有没有感到种推力

from making that a central tenant of foreign policy?

使得女性成为外交政策的关键参与者？

MA: From some people.

MA：对一些人，

I think that they thought that it was a soft issue.

我想他们认为这是一个“软性”议题。

The bottom line that I decided

我决定底线

was actually women's issues are the hardest issues,

是女性的议题实际上是最困难的议题，

because they are the ones that have to do with life and death

因为这些议题

in so many aspects,

在许多方面涉及到生与死--

and because, as I said,

而且，就像之前我说的，

it is really central to the way that we think about things.

因为这真的是我们思考这些事的中心。

Now for instance,

比如，

some of the wars that took place

当我在职时

when I was in office,

那时有些战争，

a lot of them, the women were the main victims of it.

许多战争中，女性都是主要的受害者。

For instance, when I started,

比如，我刚任职时，

there were wars in the Balkans.

在巴尔干地区有些战争。

The women in Bosnia were being raped.

在波斯尼亚的女性遭到强奸。

We then managed to set up a war crimes tribunal

然后我们试着建立起一个战犯法庭

to deal specifically with those kinds of issues.

来特别解决这类问题。

And by the way, one of the things that I did at that stage

顺便说一下，我刚走马上任

was, I had just arrived at the U.N.,

驻联合国工作时，

and when I was there, there were 183 countries in the U.N.

在我那时联合国有183个国家。

Now there are 192.

目前有192个国家。

But it was one of the first times that I didn't have to cook lunch myself.

但那时也是第一次我不用亲自下厨做午饭。

So I said to my assistant,

我对我的助手说，

"Invite the other women permanent representatives."

“请邀请其他女性常驻代表来赴宴。”

And I thought when I'd get to my apartment

我想当我到我的房间时

that there'd be a lot of women there.

在那儿会有很多女性。

I get there, and there are six other women, out of 183.

我到那儿后，183个国家里，只有6位其他女性代表。

So the countries that had women representatives

派驻女性代表的国家

were Canada, Kazakhstan, Philippines,

分别是加拿大，哈萨克斯坦，菲律宾，

Trinidad Tobago, Jamaica,

特立尼达多巴哥，牙买加，

Lichtenstein and me.

列支敦士登和我自己代表的美国。

So being an American, I decided to set up a caucus.

所以作为美国代表，我决定组织一个代表会议。

(Laughter)

（笑声）

And so we set it up,

我们把它建立起来了，

and we called ourselves the G7.

我们自称为G7会议。

(Laughter)

（笑声）

PM: Is that "Girl 7?" MA: Girl 7.

PM：那是指7位女孩？（MA：是的。女孩7。）

And we lobbied

MA：我们游说

on behalf of women's issues.

代言女性权益。

So we managed to get two women judges

我们决定

on this war crimes tribunal.

在这场战犯法庭上安排2位女性法官。

And then what happened

然后接下来发生的

was that they were able to declare that rape was a weapon of war,

是她们能够宣布强奸是一种战争武器，

that it was against humanity.

而且它是违背人性的。

(Applause)

（掌声）

PM: So when you look around the world

PM：所以当你环视全球各地

and you see that, in many cases --

你看到，在许多情况下--

certainly in the Western world --

特别在西方世界--

women are evolving into more leadership positions,

女性正在担当更多领导者的地位，

and even other places

甚至其他地方

some barriers are being brought down,

一些障碍正在被推翻，

but there's still so much violence,

但还是会有很多暴力，

still so many problems,

还有许多问题，

and yet we hear there are more women

尽管如此，我们还是会听到更多的女性

at the negotiating tables.

在谈判桌上讲话。

Now you were at those negotiating tables

你曾经就在那样的谈判桌代言

when they weren't, when there was maybe you --

那曾经没女性代言，或许正是你--

one voice, maybe one or two others.

一个声音，或许一个或者另外两个人代言。

Do you believe, and can you tell us why,

你相信，你能否告诉我们为什么，

there is going to be a significant shift

这会有一个巨大转变

in things like violence

在诸如此类事件上像暴力

and peace and conflict and resolution

和平，冲突和

on a sustainable basis?

在一个可持续基础上的决议？

MA: Well I do think, when there are more women,

MA：好吧，我的确认为，当更多女性参与时，

that the tone of the conversation changes,

谈话的论调会改变，

and also the goals of the conversation change.

谈话的目标也随之改变。

But it doesn't mean that the whole world

但这并不意味全世界

would be a lot better

会好很多

if it were totally run by women.

如果世界全是由女性来管理。

If you think that, you've forgotten high school.

如果你这样想，你已经忘记了高中。

(Laughter)

（笑声）

But the bottom line

但底线

is that there is a way,

是会有出路，

when there are more women at the table,

那就是更多女性在谈判桌上，

that there's an attempt

这是一种尝试

to develop some understanding.

得以增进一些了解。

So for instance, what I did when I went to Burundi,

例如，当我在布隆迪所做的事，

we'd got Tutsi and Hutu women together

我们团结了图西族和胡图族女性一起

to talk about some of the problems

来谈论一些问题

that had taken place in Rwanda.

这些问题曾经演变为卢旺达大屠杀。

And so I think the capability of women

所以我认为女性的能力

to put themselves --

是把她们自己

I think we're better about putting ourselves into the other guy's shoes

我们最好是说要设身处地地替别人着想

and having more empathy.

带有更多同情心。

I think it helps in terms of the support

这在互助方面上会起作用

if there are other women in the room.

如果其他女性和你共处时。

When I was Secretary of State,

当我是国务卿时，

there were only 13 other women foreign ministers.

那时仅有其他13位女性外交部长。

And so it was nice when one of them would show up.

所以当我们中一员出面时，这是很好的。

For instance, she is now the president of Finland,

例如，现在芬兰的总统塔里娅·哈洛宁，

but Tarja Halonen was the foreign minister of Finland

但她那时是芬兰的外交部长

and, at a certain stage, head of the European Union.

在某一阶段，也是欧洲联盟负责人。

And it was really terrific.

这真的很了不起。

Because one of the things I think you'll understand.

因为我想你会理解其中的一些事。

We went to a meeting,

我们曾去了一个会议，

and the men in my delegation,

在我们代表团中，

when I would say, "Well I feel we should do something about this,"

当我要说，“好吧，我感觉我们应该关于此事做点事儿，”

and they'd say, "What do you mean, you feel?"

他们男性代表会说，“你指什么，你感觉到？”

And so then Tarja was sitting across the table from me.

随后塔里娅坐到我桌子对面。

And all of a sudden we were talking about arms control,

突然间我们都谈论军备控制，

and she said, "Well I feel we should do this."

她说到，“好吧，我感觉我们应该做这件事。”

And my male colleagues kind of got it all of a sudden.

我的男性同事突然间懂了似的。

But I think it really does help

但我认为这的确帮助

to have a critical mass of women

一些至关重要的女性

in a series of foreign policy positions.

参与到一系列外交政策立场的谈判中去。

The other thing that I think is really important:

我想到的其他很重要的事是：

A lot of national security policy

很多国家安全政策

isn't just about foreign policy,

不仅是关于外交政策，

but it's about budgets, military budgets,

更关乎于预算，军事预算，

and how the debts of countries work out.

国家债务该怎样解决。

So if you have women

所以如果有女性

in a variety of foreign policy posts,

参与外交政策制定的不同环节中，

they can support each other

她们能互相支持

when there are budget decisions being made in their own countries.

并制定在她们自己国家的预算决定。

PM: So how do we get

PM：那么我们该怎样

this balance we're looking for, then, in the world?

在世界上寻求这种平衡呢？

More women's voices at the table?

让更多女性的声音响彻在谈判桌上？

More men who believe

更多男性会认为

that the balance is best?

这种男女平衡是最好的吗？

MA: Well I think one of the things --

MA：好吧我认为一件事是：

I'm chairman of the board of an organization

我是一个

called the National Democratic Institute

叫做全国民主协会组织的委员会主席

that works to support women candidates.

它致力于协助女性候选人。

I think that we need

我认为我们需要

to help in other countries

帮助其他国家

to train women

培训女性

to be in political office,

胜任政务职位，

to figure out how they can in fact

帮她们搞清楚事实上她们如何能够

develop political voices.

发挥她们政治谈判的声音。

I think we also need to be supportive

我认为我们也需要支持

when businesses are being created

当我们建立企业时

and just make sure that women help each other.

得确保女性得互相协助。

Now I have a saying

现在我想说的是

that I feel very strongly about,

我非常强烈地感受于此，

because I am of a certain age

因为我上了一把年纪了

where, when I started in my career,

当我刚开始我职业生涯时，

believe it or not, there were other women who criticized me:

信不信由你，有些其他女性指责我：

"Why aren't you in the carpool line?"

“你为什么要踩过界线呢？”

or "Aren't your children suffering

或者“你的孩子不受罪吗

because you're not there all the time?"

缘于你常常不在家？”

And I think we have a tendency to make each other feel guilty.

我认为我们往往会让对方感到内疚。

In fact, I think "guilt" is every woman's middle name.

事实上，我认为“内疚”是每一位女性的中间名。

And so I think what needs to happen

所以我认为所需发生的

is we need to help each other.

就是我们需要互相帮助。

And my motto is that there's a special place in hell

我的座右铭是地狱里有个专门的地方留给

for women who don't help each other.

不互相帮助的女性

(Applause)

（掌声）

PM: Well Secretary Albright, I guess you'll be going to heaven.

PM：好的，国务卿奥尔布赖特，我猜你会通达天堂。

Thank you for joining us today.

谢谢你今天加入我们的会谈。

MA: Thank you all. Thanks Pat.

MA：谢谢大家。谢谢帕特。

(Applause)

（掌声）