Madeleine Albright: On being a woman and a diplomat

譯者: Joyce Chou 審譯者: Sunny Kan Ngai Hang

Pat Mitchell: What is the story of this pin?

Pat Mitchell：今天您別胸針有什麼意義嗎？

Madeleine Albright: This is "Breaking the Glass Ceiling."

Madeleine Albright：這代表打破透明的天花板

PM: Oh.

PM：喔

That was well chosen, I would say, for TEDWomen.

這真是非常適合TEDWomen的場合

MA: Most of the time I spend when I get up in the morning

MA：每天早上起床我大部分的時間花在

is trying to figure out what is going to happen.

思考等一下要做的事

And none of this pin stuff would have happened

但我從不去想要戴上哪個胸針

if it hadn't been for Saddam Hussein.

這起因於Saddam Hussein(前伊拉克總統)

I'll tell you what happened.

我跟你說

I went to the United Nations as an ambassador,

我擔任大使前往聯合國

and it was after the Gulf War,

在波灣戰爭後

and I was an instructed ambassador.

我被指派為大使

And the cease-fire had been translated

表達停火之意

into a series of sanctions resolutions,

在制裁決議上

and my instructions

我的用意

were to say perfectly terrible things about Saddam Hussein constantly,

是要持續說明Saddam Hussein做的可怕的事

which he deserved -- he had invaded another country.

這是他該受到的譴責，他侵略了其他國家

And so all of a sudden, a poem appeared in the papers in Baghdad

當時在巴格達的報紙上刊載了一首詩

comparing me to many things,

拿我和很多東西比較

but among them an "unparalleled serpent."

其中一項就是無敵的蛇

And so I happened to have a snake pin.

我剛好有一隻蛇的胸針

So I wore it when we talked about Iraq.

我就在談論伊拉克時戴上它

(Laughter)

(笑聲)

And when I went out to meet the press,

當我出來面對記者的時候

they zeroed in, said, "Why are you wearing that snake pin?"

他們對著我，問我"為什麼戴那個蛇的胸針？"

I said, "Because Saddam Hussein compared me to an unparalleled serpent."

我說"因為Saddam Hussein把我比喻成一隻無敵的蛇"

And then I thought, well this is fun.

那時候我覺得這挺好玩的

So I went out and I bought a lot of pins

所以後來我買了很多的胸針

that would, in fact, reflect

這事實上反映了

what I thought we were going to do on any given day.

當天我覺得我要做的事

So that's how it all started.

這就是關於我的胸針的故事

PM: So how large is the collection?

PM：所以你大概有多少個胸針？

MA: Pretty big.

MA：非常多

It's now traveling.

他們現在正在旅行

At the moment it's in Indianapolis,

現在這時候他們在印第安納波里

but it was at the Smithsonian.

前陣子在史密森博物館

And it goes with a book that says, "Read My Pins."

他們跟我的書在一起，書名是《看我的胸針》

(Laughter)

(笑聲)

PM: So is this a good idea.

PM：你覺得這想法如何？

I remember when you were the first woman

我記得當你成為第一位

as Secretary of State,

女性的國務卿

and there was a lot of conversation always

總是有很多人在談論

about what you were wearing,

關於你的穿著

how you looked --

你看起來的樣子

the thing that happens to a lot of women,

這種事總會發生在很多女人身上

especially if they're the first in a position.

特別是他們第一次擔任某種職位

So how do you feel about that -- the whole --

你如何看待這件事？

MA: Well, it's pretty irritating actually

MA：好吧，這其實很惱人

because nobody ever describes what a man is wearing.

因為從沒有人討論過男人的穿著

But people did pay attention to what clothes I had.

但大家總愛關注我穿的衣服

What was interesting was that,

有趣的是

before I went up to New York as U.N. ambassador,

在我到紐約出任聯合國大使前

I talked to Jeane Kirkpatrick, who'd been ambassador before me,

我跟Jeane Kirkpatrick聊過，她是前一任的大使

and she said, "You've got to get rid of your professor clothes.

她跟我說"你不能再穿那些看起來像是教授的衣服"

Go out and look like a diplomat."

"你需要看起來像是外交官"

So that did give me a lot of opportunities to go shopping.

所以這讓我有很多機會可以去購物

But still, there were all kinds of questions

但仍然還是有很多問題

about -- "did you wear a hat?" "How short was your skirt?"

像是你要戴帽子嗎？你的裙子的多長？

And one of the things --

還有一件事

if you remember Condoleezza Rice was at some event and she wore boots,

如果你還記得Condoleezza Rice在某些場合穿了靴子

and she got criticized over that.

而她受到許多批評

And no guy ever gets criticized. But that's the least of it.

沒有哪個男人因為穿著受過批評，至少女性也該享有相同的待遇

PM: It is, for all of us, men and women,

PM：沒錯，我們，不分男女

finding our ways of defining our roles,

要以自己的方式定義自己的角色

and doing them in ways that make a difference in the world

用各種方法，讓世界改變

and shape the future.

塑造未來

How did you handle that balance

你扮演不同角色，你是如何拿捏分寸的？

between being the tough diplomatic

要擔任一位強勢的外交官

and strong voice of this country

為這個國家

to the rest of the world

在面對其他國家時有力的發聲

and also how you felt about yourself

以及你覺得自己

as a mother, a grandmother, nurturing ...

身為一位母親、或一位祖母去教養家庭

and so how did you handle that?

你是怎麼做到的？

MA: Well the interesting part was I was asked

MA：要說有趣的部分是有人問我

what it was like to be the first woman Secretary of State

成為第一位女性國務卿是什麼感覺

a few minutes after I'd been named.

在我被任命為國務卿的幾分鐘後有人這樣問

And I said, "Well I've been a woman for 60 years,

我回答說，“我當女人已經60多年了

but I've only been Secretary of State for a few minutes."

但我才剛當上國務卿幾分鐘而已"

So it evolved.

所以應該會進步的

(Laughter)

(笑聲)

But basically I love being a woman.

不過基本上我喜歡"女人"這個角色

And so what happened --

事實上

and I think there will probably be some people in the audience

我相信在座的某些人

that will identify with this --

應該能認同

I went to my first meeting, first at the U.N.,

我第一次到聯合國參加會議

and that's when this all started,

事情是這樣發生的

because that is a very male organization.

因為那是一個男性主導的機構

And I'm sitting there -- there are 15 members of the Security Council --

我坐在那裏，那裏有15個安理會成員國的代表

so 14 men sat there staring at me,

所以有14個男人坐在那裏看著我

and I thought -- well you know how we all are.

我想，你們應該想的到那畫面

You want to get the feeling of the room,

你想要融入那場合

and "do people like me?"

讓其他人認同我

and "will I really say something intelligent?"

我真的需要說出很有智慧的話嗎？

And all of a sudden I thought, "Well, wait a minute.

突然間我想，等等

I am sitting behind a sign that says 'The United States,'

我正坐在一個寫著"美國"的牌子的後面

and if I don't speak today

如果我今天不說話

then the voice of the United States will not be heard,"

那今天美國的意見就不會被聽到了

and it was the first time that I had that feeling

那是我第一次有那種感覺

that I had to step out of myself

我必須跳脫自我

in my normal, reluctant female mode

跳脫我平常被動的女性模式

and decide that I had to speak on behalf of our country.

我必須代表我們的國家說話

And so that happened more at various times,

之後很多場合都需要這樣表現

but I really think that there was a great advantage in many ways

但我真的認為在許多方面

to being a woman.

當女人是有很大的優勢

I think we are a lot better

我認為我們強過男人

at personal relationships,

像在人際關係上

and then have the capability obviously

我們明顯地有能力

of telling it like it is when it's necessary.

在必要的時候跟別人講事情

But I have to tell you, I have my youngest granddaughter,

不過我要跟你們說，我那最小的孫女

when she turned seven last year,

去年她剛滿七歲

said to her mother, my daughter,

跟她媽媽說，就是我女兒

"So what's the big deal about Grandma Maddie being Secretary of State?

"奶奶當上國務卿有什麼大不了的"

Only girls are Secretary of State."

"國務卿不都是女的"

(Laughter)

(笑聲)

(Applause)

(掌聲)

PM: Because in her lifetime -- MA: That would be so.

PM：那是從她出生後才這樣 (MA：那真的是)

PM: What a change that is.

PM：這是一大改變

As you travel now all over the world,

當你在世界各地走動的時後

which you do frequently,

你經常出國

how do you assess

你如何看待

this global narrative around the story of women and girls?

全球各地婦女們和女孩們的新聞？

Where are we?

我們現在該怎麼看待這些事？

MA: I think we're slowly changing,

MA：我想這些慢慢在改變了

but obviously there are whole pockets

但顯然也是有很多地方

in countries where nothing is different.

是完全沒有改變的

And therefore it means that we have to remember

這意味著我們必須記住一件事

that, while many of us have had huge opportunities --

雖然我們有很多很大的機會

and Pat, you have been a real leader in your field --

Pat，你在你的工作領域裡你是一位很好的領導人

is that there are a lot of women

但還是有很多地方很多女性

that are not capable

他們沒有能力

of worrying and taking care of themselves

注意自己和照顧自己

and understanding that women have to help other women.

也沒有意識到女人是可以幫助其他女人的

And so what I have felt --

所以我覺得

and I have looked at this

我必須關注這件事

from a national security issue --

認為這是國家安全的議題

when I was Secretary of State, I decided

當我是國務卿的時候，我決定

that women's issues had to be central to American foreign policy,

要把女性議題擺在美國外交政策的重心

not just because I'm a feminist,

這不是因為我是女性主義者

but because I believe that societies are better off

這是因為我認為社會會變得更好

when women are politically and economically empowered,

唯有女性在政治和經濟上被賦予權利

that values are passed down,

權利下放

the health situation is better,

健康醫療改善

education is better,

教育改善

there is greater economic prosperity.

經濟也會更繁榮

So I think that it behooves us --

因此，我認為我們應當

those of us that live in various countries

我們和那些女人生活在不同國家

where we do have economic and political voice --

在我們的國家，我們在經濟和政治上可以有所作為

that we need to help other women.

所以我們必須幫助他們

And I really dedicated myself to that,

我真的致力在做這些事

both at the U.N. and then as Secretary of State.

不管是在聯合國還是國務卿的工作

PM: And did you get pushback

PM：那你有遇到反對的聲音嗎？

from making that a central tenant of foreign policy?

要讓這議題成為外交政策的重點的時候？

MA: From some people.

MA：是有一些人反對

I think that they thought that it was a soft issue.

我覺得因為他們覺得這是個軟性議題

The bottom line that I decided

但我的原則是

was actually women's issues are the hardest issues,

我覺得女性議題是最困難的議題

because they are the ones that have to do with life and death

因為女性會直接面對攸關生死的重大事件

in so many aspects,

在很多層面上

and because, as I said,

因為，如同我說過的

it is really central to the way that we think about things.

在我們考慮很多事情時，這議題往往都是重點

Now for instance,

例如

some of the wars that took place

曾經發生過的一些戰爭

when I was in office,

當我還是國務卿的時候

a lot of them, the women were the main victims of it.

很多戰亂中，女性都是主要的受害者

For instance, when I started,

例如

there were wars in the Balkans.

在巴爾幹半島有場戰爭

The women in Bosnia were being raped.

在波斯尼亞的婦女被強暴

We then managed to set up a war crimes tribunal

然後我們設法建立一個戰爭罪行的法庭

to deal specifically with those kinds of issues.

專門處理這些問題

And by the way, one of the things that I did at that stage

對了，我在那時候還做了一件事

was, I had just arrived at the U.N.,

我去聯合國的時候

and when I was there, there were 183 countries in the U.N.

那時候聯合國的成員國有183個國家

Now there are 192.

現在有192個國家

But it was one of the first times that I didn't have to cook lunch myself.

那是我第一次沒有自己做午飯

So I said to my assistant,

我跟我助理說

"Invite the other women permanent representatives."

"去邀請其他女性的常駐代表"

And I thought when I'd get to my apartment

我原本以為我回到我公寓的時候

that there'd be a lot of women there.

會有很多女性朋友在那裏

I get there, and there are six other women, out of 183.

但我回去的時候，只有6位，183個成員國裡只有6位

So the countries that had women representatives

那些是女性代表的國家是

were Canada, Kazakhstan, Philippines,

加拿大、哈薩克、菲律賓

Trinidad Tobago, Jamaica,

千里達、牙買加

Lichtenstein and me.

列支敦士登公國和我們美國

So being an American, I decided to set up a caucus.

然後身為美國人，我決定成立一個核心小組

(Laughter)

(笑聲)

And so we set it up,

所以我們真的組了這個小組

and we called ourselves the G7.

我們叫自己G7

(Laughter)

(笑聲)

PM: Is that "Girl 7?" MA: Girl 7.

PM：是女生七人組(girl seven)嗎？(MA：對，女生七人組)

And we lobbied

MA：我們試著遊說

on behalf of women's issues.

這些女性議題

So we managed to get two women judges

我們企圖要有兩位女性法官

on this war crimes tribunal.

在戰爭罪行的法庭參與審判

And then what happened

後來

was that they were able to declare that rape was a weapon of war,

他們可以宣布強暴也是一種戰爭的武器

that it was against humanity.

而且違反人性

(Applause)

(掌聲)

PM: So when you look around the world

PM：所以當你環顧世界

and you see that, in many cases --

你看到，在許多情況下

certainly in the Western world --

當然在西方世界

women are evolving into more leadership positions,

女性可以獲得更多的領導職務

and even other places

在其他地方

some barriers are being brought down,

某些限制也慢慢解除了

but there's still so much violence,

但還是有很多地方充滿暴力

still so many problems,

充斥許多問題

and yet we hear there are more women

但我們還沒有很多人

at the negotiating tables.

可以在談判桌上發聲

Now you were at those negotiating tables

現在，你在談判桌上

when they weren't, when there was maybe you --

當時沒有，也許你當時有

one voice, maybe one or two others.

也許只有一兩個人為這議題說話

Do you believe, and can you tell us why,

你能否跟我們說，你是否相信

there is going to be a significant shift

未來將會有很大的改變

in things like violence

像是暴力問題

and peace and conflict and resolution

和平和衝突，還有其他的解決方法

on a sustainable basis?

能否在合理的基礎下做到？

MA: Well I do think, when there are more women,

MA：我當然相信，如果有更多的女性朋友願意出力

that the tone of the conversation changes,

還有談論的氣氛改變

and also the goals of the conversation change.

以及談論的目標改變的話

But it doesn't mean that the whole world

當然這不表示整個世界

would be a lot better

都會變好

if it were totally run by women.

當然不會全部由女性主導一切的工作

If you think that, you've forgotten high school.

如果你有那樣的想法，你大概忘了高中是什麼樣子

(Laughter)

(笑聲)

But the bottom line

但原則是

is that there is a way,

總是會有辦法的

when there are more women at the table,

當有更多女性能出現在談判桌上

that there's an attempt

那就是一個機會

to develop some understanding.

可以增進男性對這方面議題的了解

So for instance, what I did when I went to Burundi,

像是當我在蒲隆地

we'd got Tutsi and Hutu women together

我們找了圖西族和胡圖族的婦女一起

to talk about some of the problems

談論一些問題

that had taken place in Rwanda.

是發生在盧安達的

And so I think the capability of women

所以，我覺得女性

to put themselves --

有能力有所作為

I think we're better about putting ourselves into the other guy's shoes

我認為我們將能夠從別人的角度去看事情

and having more empathy.

並有更多的同理心

I think it helps in terms of the support

我認為這有助於這方面的支持

if there are other women in the room.

如果當時有其他的女性參與會議的話

When I was Secretary of State,

當我還是國務卿的時候

there were only 13 other women foreign ministers.

只有13個國家是女性擔任外交大臣

And so it was nice when one of them would show up.

因此，當其中一個人能夠出席會議是很好的

For instance, she is now the president of Finland,

例如，其中一位她現在是芬蘭總統

but Tarja Halonen was the foreign minister of Finland

但Tarja Halonen當時是芬蘭的外交大臣

and, at a certain stage, head of the European Union.

也同時是歐盟的主席

And it was really terrific.

那是相當了不起的

Because one of the things I think you'll understand.

我說個例子我想你們應該可以了解

We went to a meeting,

我們出席會議

and the men in my delegation,

在我的代表團裡的男性代表

when I would say, "Well I feel we should do something about this,"

當我說"我覺得我應該針對這事情做些什麼"

and they'd say, "What do you mean, you feel?"

然後他們問"你說你覺得是什麼意思？"

And so then Tarja was sitting across the table from me.

然後Tarja坐在我對面的位子上

And all of a sudden we were talking about arms control,

當我們在談論武器控管的問題時

and she said, "Well I feel we should do this."

她說"我覺得我們應該這樣做"

And my male colleagues kind of got it all of a sudden.

然後我的男同事們突然就了解那是什麼意思了

But I think it really does help

當然我覺得這很有幫助

to have a critical mass of women

有一位有地位的女性

in a series of foreign policy positions.

參與一系列的外交政策的會議

The other thing that I think is really important:

其他我認為也很重要的是

A lot of national security policy

很多國家安全政策

isn't just about foreign policy,

不只是外交政策

but it's about budgets, military budgets,

是有關預算，軍事預算

and how the debts of countries work out.

以及如何制定出國債

So if you have women

如果有女性

in a variety of foreign policy posts,

擔任各種外交政策的職位

they can support each other

他們能互相支持

when there are budget decisions being made in their own countries.

當他們自己的國家在作出預算編列的決定

PM: So how do we get

PM：那我們要如何

this balance we're looking for, then, in the world?

在這個世界做到這樣的平衡？

More women's voices at the table?

讓更多的女性參與會議？

More men who believe

讓更多的男性認同

that the balance is best?

男女平等是最好的狀態？

MA: Well I think one of the things --

MA：事情是這樣

I'm chairman of the board of an organization

我是一個機構的董事長

called the National Democratic Institute

那個機構是國際民主研究所

that works to support women candidates.

我們做的事情是支持女性候選人

I think that we need

我認為我們需要

to help in other countries

幫助其他國家

to train women

去訓練女性

to be in political office,

爭取政治上的地位

to figure out how they can in fact

讓他們了解他們能做的事情

develop political voices.

增進他們在政治上的力量

I think we also need to be supportive

我想我們還需要支持

when businesses are being created

他們設立企業

and just make sure that women help each other.

確保女性會互相幫助彼此

Now I have a saying

我現在要說

that I feel very strongly about,

我很強烈的感覺到

because I am of a certain age

因為我已經到了這個年紀

where, when I started in my career,

當我開始我的職業生涯

believe it or not, there were other women who criticized me:

你們知道嗎，也是有其他的女性朋友批評我

"Why aren't you in the carpool line?"

"妳為什麼不和別人共同擔任這份工作？"

or "Aren't your children suffering

或是"你的小孩一定很辛苦

because you're not there all the time?"

因為你都不在他們的身邊"

And I think we have a tendency to make each other feel guilty.

我認為我們有一種想讓別人感到內疚傾向

In fact, I think "guilt" is every woman's middle name.

其實我覺得“內疚”存在每個女人的個性裡

And so I think what needs to happen

所以我認為

is we need to help each other.

我們需要互相幫助

And my motto is that there's a special place in hell

而我的座右銘是在地獄裡有一個特殊的地方

for women who don't help each other.

是留給那些不願幫助其他女性朋友的女人

(Applause)

(掌聲)

PM: Well Secretary Albright, I guess you'll be going to heaven.

PM：恩，國務卿Albright女士，你一定會上天堂的

Thank you for joining us today.

謝謝你今天來參加我們的活動

MA: Thank you all. Thanks Pat.

MA：謝謝各位。謝謝你Pat。

(Applause)

(掌聲)