How equal do we want the world to be? You'd be surprised | Dan Ariely

Prevodilac: Milenka Okuka Lektor: Mile Živković

It would be nice to be objective in life,

Bilo bi lepo kad bismo bili objektivni u životu,

in many ways.

iz mnogo razloga.

The problem is that we have these color-tinted glasses

Ali problem je što nosimo šarene naočari

as we look at all kinds of situations.

dok posmatramo različite siuacije.

For example, think about something as simple as beer.

Na primer, uzmite nešto jednostavno, poput piva.

If I gave you a few beers to taste

Kada bih vam ponudio da probate nekoliko piva

and I asked you to rate them on intensity and bitterness,

i kada bih vam zatražio da ocenite njihovu jačinu i gorčinu,

different beers would occupy different space.

različita piva bi zauzela različita mesta.

Ali šta ako bismo pokušali da budemo objektivni o tome?

But what if we tried to be objective about it?

In the case of beer, it would be very simple.

U slučaju piva, bilo bi veoma jednostavno.

What if we did a blind taste?

Šta ako bismo vas testirali na slepo?

Well, if we did the same thing, you tasted the same beer,

Pa, ako bismo uradili isti test, probali biste isto pivo,

now in the blind taste, things would look slightly different.

samo ovaj put na slepo, stvari bi izgledale nešto drugačije.

Most of the beers will go into one place.

Većinu piva bi smestili na sličnu poziciju.

U suštini, ne biste bili u stanju da ih razlikujete,

You will basically not be able to distinguish them,

and the exception, of course, will be Guinness.

a izuzetak, naravno, bi bio Ginis.

(Laughter)

(Smeh)

Similarly, we can think about physiology.

Slično, možemo da razmišljamo o fiziologiji.

What happens when people expect something from their physiology?

Šta se desi kada ljudi očekuju nešto od svoje fiziologije?

For example, we sold people pain medications.

Na primer, prodali smo ljudima lekove za bol.

Some people, we told them the medications were expensive.

Nekima smo rekli da su lekovi skupi.

Some people, we told them it was cheap.

Nekima smo rekli da su jeftini.

And the expensive pain medication worked better.

I skupi lekovi za bol su bili učinkovitiji.

It relieved more pain from people,

Ljudima su više olakšavali bol,

because expectations do change our physiology.

jer očekivanja utiču na našu fiziologiju.

And of course, we all know that in sports,

I naravno, svi znamo da u sportu,

if you are a fan of a particular team,

ako ste ljubitelj određene ekipe,

you can't help but see the game

ne možete a da ne posmatrate razvoj igre

develop from the perspective of your team.

iz perspektive svoje ekipe.

So all of those are cases in which our preconceived notions

Sve su ovo slučajevi

u kojima naše predrasude i očekivanja, boje naš svet.

and our expectations color our world.

But what happened in more important questions?

Ali šta bi se desilo kod važnijih pitanja?

What happened with questions that had to do with social justice?

Šta bi se desilo kod pitanja vezanih za socijalnu pravdu?

So we wanted to think about what is the blind tasting version

Pa smo hteli da razmislimo o tome kako bi izgledalo testiranje na slepo,

for thinking about inequality?

prilikom razmišljanja o nejednakosti?

So we started looking at inequality,

Počeli smo da razmatramo nejednakost

and we did some large-scale surveys

i odradili smo istraživanje većeg obima,

around the U.S. and other countries.

širom SAD-a i u drugim zemljama.

So we asked two questions:

Postavili smo dva pitanja:

Do people know what kind of level of inequality we have?

da li ljudi znaju koliki je stepen nejednakosti koji imamo?

And then, what level of inequality do we want to have?

A potom i: koliki stepen nejednakosti bismo voleli da imamo?

So let's think about the first question.

Razmislimo o prvom pitanju.

Imagine I took all the people in the U.S.

Zamislite da sam uzeo sve ljude iz SAD-a

and I sorted them from the poorest on the right

i poređao ih od najsiromašnijih, s desna

to the richest on the left,

do najbogatijih, s leva,

and then I divided them into five buckets:

a potom sam ih podelio u pet kategorija:

the poorest 20 percent, the next 20 percent,

20 procenata najsiromašnijih, zatim sledećih 20%,

the next, the next, and the richest 20 percent.

pa sledećih, pa sledećih i 20 procenata najbogatijih.

And then I asked you to tell me how much wealth do you think

A potom sam vas upitao da mi kažete koliko smatrate da je dobra

is concentrated in each of those buckets.

koncentrisano u svakoj od ovih kategorija.

So to make it simpler, imagine I ask you to tell me,

Da bih to pojednostavio, zamislite da sam vas pitao:

how much wealth do you think is concentrated

koliko smatrate da je bogatstva koncentrisano

in the bottom two buckets,

u najsiromašnije dve kategorije,

the bottom 40 percent?

donjih 40 procenata?

Take a second. Think about it and have a number.

Razmislite na sekund i dođite do nekog broja.

Usually we don't think.

Obično ne mislimo o tome.

Think for a second, have a real number in your mind.

Razmislite na sekund, dođite do nekog realnog broja.

You have it?

Imate li ga?

Okay, here's what lots of Americans tell us.

U redu, evo šta nam većina Amerikanaca kaže.

They think that the bottom 20 percent

Smatraju da najsiromašnijih 20 procenata

has about 2.9 percent of the wealth,

poseduje 2.9 procenata bogatstva,

the next group has 6.4,

sledeća grupa ima 6.4,

so together it's slightly more than nine.

dakle, zajedno imaju jedva preko devet.

The next group, they say, has 12 percent,

Sledeća grupa, kažu, ima 12 procenata,

20 percent,

zatim 20,

and the richest 20 percent, people think has 58 percent of the wealth.

a najbogatijih 20 procenata, smatra se da imaju 58 procenata bogatstva.

You can see how this relates to what you thought.

Možete da uporedite ovo s vašim pretpostavkama.

Now, what's reality?

A sad, kako je u stvarnosti?

Reality is slightly different.

U stvarnosti je nešto drugačije.

The bottom 20 percent has 0.1 percent of the wealth.

Najsiromašnijih 20 procenata ima 0.1 procenat bogatstva.

The next 20 percent has 0.2 percent of the wealth.

Sledećih 20 procenata ima 0.2 procenta bogatstva.

Together, it's 0.3.

Zajedno, to je 0.3.

The next group has 3.9,

Sledeća grupa ima 3.9,

11.3,

pa 11.3,

and the richest group has 84-85 percent of the wealth.

a najbogatija grupa ima 84-85 procenata bogatstva.

So what we actually have and what we think we have

Dakle, ono što zaista imamo i ono što mislimo da imamo

are very different.

su različite stvari.

What about what we want?

Šta je sa onim šta želimo?

How do we even figure this out?

Kako bismo to uopšte ocenili?

So to look at this,

Kako bismo se osvrnuli na to,

to look at what we really want,

osvrnuli na to šta zaista želimo,

we thought about the philosopher John Rawls.

setili smo se filozofa Džona Rolsa.

If you remember John Rawls,

Ako se sećate, Džon Rols

he had this notion of what's a just society.

je imao zamisao o tome šta je pravedno društvo.

He said a just society

Rekao je da je pravedno društvo

is a society that if you knew everything about it,

ono o kome kada biste znali sve,

you would be willing to enter it in a random place.

bili biste spremni da budete bilo koji njegov član.

And it's a beautiful definition,

I to je prelepa definicija,

because if you're wealthy, you might want the wealthy

jer ako ste bogati, možda želite da bogati

imaju više novca, a da siromašni imaju manje.

to have more money, the poor to have less.

If you're poor, you might want more equality.

Ako ste siromašni, možda želite više jednakosti.

But if you're going to go into that society

Ali ako ulazite u to društvo,

in every possible situation, and you don't know,

a da vam nije poznato na koju od svih mogućih pozicija,

you have to consider all the aspects.

moraćete da razmislite o svim aspektima.

It's a little bit like blind tasting in which you don't know

To je poput testiranja na slepo u kojem ne znate

what the outcome will be when you make a decision,

kakva će biti posledica vašeg izbora,

and Rawls called this the "veil of ignorance."

a Rols je ovo nazvao "velom neznanja".

So, we took another group, a large group of Americans,

Pa smo uzeli još jednu grupu, veliku grupu Amerikanaca,

and we asked them the question in the veil of ignorance.

i postavili smo im pitanje pod velom neznanja.

What are the characteristics of a country that would make you want to join it,

Koje su to osobine države kojoj biste se priključili,

knowing that you could end randomly at any place?

znajući da biste mogli da završite na bilo kojoj poziciji?

And here is what we got.

A evo šta smo dobili.

What did people want to give to the first group,

Koliko bi ljudi dali prvoj grupi,

the bottom 20 percent?

najsiromašnijih 20 procenata?

They wanted to give them about 10 percent of the wealth.

Želeli su da im daju 10 procenata bogatstva.

The next group, 14 percent of the wealth,

Sledećoj grupi bi dali 14 procenata bogatstva,

21, 22 and 32.

zatim 21, 22 i 32.

Now, nobody in our sample wanted full equality.

Sad, niko u našem primeru nije želeo potpunu jednakost.

Nobody thought that socialism is a fantastic idea in our sample.

Niko u našem primeru nije smatrao socijalizam za sjajnu ideju.

But what does it mean?

Ali šta to znači?

It means that we have this knowledge gap

To znači da postoji jaz u znanju,

between what we have and what we think we have,

između onoga što imamo i onoga što mislimo da imamo,

but we have at least as big a gap between what we think is right

ali imamo, blago rečeno, veliki jaz između onoga što smatramo pravednim

to what we think we have.

i onoga što mislimo da imamo.

Now, we can ask these questions, by the way, not just about wealth.

Možemo da postavljamo ovakva pitanja, usput, ne samo o bogatstvu.

We can ask it about other things as well.

Možemo da pitamo i za druge stvari.

So for example, we asked people from different parts of the world

Pa smo, na primer, pitali ljude iz različitih delova sveta

about this question,

ovo pitanje,

people who are liberals and conservatives,

pitali smo i liberale i konzervativce,

and they gave us basically the same answer.

i svi su dali praktično isti odgovor.

We asked rich and poor, they gave us the same answer,

Pitali smo bogate i siromašne, isto su odgovorili,

men and women,

muškarci i žene,

NPR listeners and Forbes readers.

Slušaoci NPR radija i čitaoci Forbsa.

We asked people in England, Australia, the U.S. --

Pitali smo ljude u Engleskoj, Australiji, SAD-u -

very similar answers.

slični su odgovori.

We even asked different departments of a university.

Čak smo pitali i različite odseke istog univerziteta.

We went to Harvard and we checked almost every department,

Otišli smo na Harvard i proverili na skoro svim odsecima,

and in fact, from Harvard Business School,

i zapravo na Harvardovoj Poslovnoj školi,

where a few people wanted the wealthy to have more and the [poor] to have less,

gde bi nekolicina želela da bogati imaju više, siromašni manje,

the similarity was astonishing.

sličnost u odgovorima nas je zapanjila.

I know some of you went to Harvard Business School.

Znam da su neki od vas pohađali Poslovnu školu na Harvardu.

We also asked this question about something else.

Takođe smo ovo pitanje postavili o nečem drugom.

Pitali smo, kakav je odnos plate izvršnog direktora i nekvalifikovanih radnika?

We asked, what about the ratio of CEO pay to unskilled workers?

So you can see what people think is the ratio,

Vidite šta ljudi smatraju da je odnos,

and then we can ask the question, what do they think should be the ratio?

a potom možemo da pitamo šta misle da bi trebalo da bude odnos?

And then we can ask, what is reality?

A onda pitamo kako je u stvarnosti.

What is reality? And you could say, well, it's not that bad, right?

Kako je u stvarnosti? Možda ćete reći: "I nije tako strašno, je l' da?"

The red and the yellow are not that different.

Crveno i žuto i nisu toliko različiti.

But the fact is, it's because I didn't draw them on the same scale.

Ali činjenica je da ih nisam nacrtao u istoj razmeri.

It's hard to see, there's yellow and blue in there.

Teško je videti, žuto i plavo su tu negde.

So what about other outcomes of wealth?

Kakvi su rezultati za druga bogatstva?

Wealth is not just about wealth.

Bogatstvo nije samo u imućnosti.

We asked, what about things like health?

Pitali smo: šta je sa zdravljem?

What about availability of prescription medication?

Šta je sa dostupnošću lekova na recept?

What about life expectancy?

Šta je sa očekivanim životnim vekom?

What about life expectancy of infants?

Šta je sa životnim vekom kod novorođenčadi?

How do we want this to be distributed?

Kako bismo to voleli da raspodelimo?

What about education for young people?

Šta je sa obrazovanjem za mlade?

And for older people?

A šta za one starije?

And across all of those things, what we learned was that people

I kroz sve ovo, shvatili smo da ljudi

don't like inequality of wealth,

ne vole nejednakost u dobrima,

but there's other things where inequality, which is an outcome of wealth,

ali postoje druge stvari gde nejednakost, koja je posledica bogatstva,

is even more aversive to them:

im je čak i neprijatnija:

for example, inequality in health or education.

na primer, nejednakost kada su zdravlje i obrazovanje u pitanju.

We also learned that people are particularly open

Takođe smo saznali da su ljudi naročito otvoreni

to changes in equality when it comes to people

za promene u jednakosti kada se radi o ljudima

who have less agency --

koji imaju manju odgovornost -

basically, young kids and babies,

u suštini, to su deca i bebe,

because we don't think of them as responsible for their situation.

jer ih ne smatramo odgovornim za situaciju u kojoj su.

So what are some lessons from this?

Koje pouke smo izvukli iz ovoga?

We have two gaps:

Imamo dva jaza:

We have a knowledge gap and we have a desirability gap

Imamo jaz u znanju i imamo jaz u onome šta želimo.

And the knowledge gap is something that we think about,

A jaz u znanju je nešto o čemu razmišljamo,

how do we educate people?

kako da obrazujemo ljude?

How do we get people to think differently about inequality

Kako da navedemo ljude da misle drugačije o nejednakosti

and the consequences of inequality in terms of health, education,

i o posledicama koje ostavlja na zdravlje, obrazovanje,

jealousy, crime rate, and so on?

zavist, stopu kriminala itd?

Then we have the desirability gap.

Potom, tu je jaz u onome šta želimo.

How do we get people to think differently about what we really want?

Kako da navedemo ljude da razmišljaju drugačije o tome šta stvarno žele?

You see, the Rawls definition, the Rawls way of looking at the world,

Vidite, Rolsova definicija, Rolsovo viđenje sveta,

the blind tasting approach,

pristup s testiranjem na slepo,

takes our selfish motivation out of the picture.

uklanja naše sebične podsticaje iz vidika.

How do we implement that to a higher degree

Kako da to primenimo na višem nivou,

on a more extensive scale?

u obimnijoj razmeri?

And finally, we also have an action gap.

I konačno, takođe imamo jaz u delanju.

How do we take these things and actually do something about it?

Kako da prihvatimo sve ovo i da zapravo uradimo nešto?

I think part of the answer is to think about people

Mislim da je rešenje delom u razmišljanju o ljudima,

like young kids and babies that don't have much agency,

poput dece i beba, koji nemaju mnogo odgovornosti,

because people seem to be more willing to do this.

jer su ljudi spremni da se potrude u njihovom slučaju.

To summarize, I would say, next time you go to drink beer or wine,

Da sumiram, rekao bih, sledeći put kada krenete da pijete pivo ili vino,

first of all, think about, what is it in your experience that is real,

pre svega razmislite, koliko je vaš doživljaj stvaran,

and what is it in your experience that is a placebo effect

a koliko je to samo placebo efekat

proizašao iz vaših očekivanja?

coming from expectations?

And then think about what it also means for other decisions in your life,

A zatim razmislite kako je u slučaju drugih odluka u vašem životu

and hopefully also for policy questions

i nadam se, takođe, i kod političkih pitanja

that affect all of us.

koja utiču na sve nas.

Thanks a lot.

Mnogo vam hvala.

(Applause)

(Aplauz)