How equal do we want the world to be? You'd be surprised | Dan Ariely

Translator: Petra Aquamarine Reviewer: Linda Magáthová

It would be nice to be objective in life,

Bolo by v mnohých ohľadoch fajn, keby sme vnímali svet objektívne.

in many ways.

The problem is that we have these color-tinted glasses

My sa však na všetky možné situácie pozeráme cez farebné okuliare.

as we look at all kinds of situations.

For example, think about something as simple as beer.

Zoberme si niečo také jednoduché ako pivo.

If I gave you a few beers to taste

Ak by som vám dal ochutnať rôzne pivá,

and I asked you to rate them on intensity and bitterness,

aby ste ohodnotili ich silu a horkosť,

different beers would occupy different space.

rôzne pivá by dopadli rôzne.

But what if we tried to be objective about it?

Ale čo ak by sme chceli byť objektívni?

In the case of beer, it would be very simple.

V prípade piva by to šlo zariadiť jednoducho:

What if we did a blind taste?

Čo ak by ste ochutnávali naslepo?

Well, if we did the same thing, you tasted the same beer,

Pivá by boli rovnaké ako predým, len by ste nevedeli, ktoré je ktoré.

now in the blind taste, things would look slightly different.

To by už dopadlo trošku inak.

Most of the beers will go into one place.

Väčšina pív by skončila na rovnakom mieste.

You will basically not be able to distinguish them,

Prakticky by ste ich nevedeli rozlíšiť,

and the exception, of course, will be Guinness.

samozrejme s výnimkou …

Guinessa.

(Laughter)

(smiech)

Similarly, we can think about physiology.

Podobne to funguje aj s fyziológiou.

What happens when people expect something from their physiology?

Čo sa stane, ak od svojej fyziológie očakávate určitú vec?

For example, we sold people pain medications.

My sme napríklad ľuďom predávali istý liek proti bolesti.

Some people, we told them the medications were expensive.

Niektorým draho a niektorým lacno.

Some people, we told them it was cheap.

And the expensive pain medication worked better.

A ten drahý zaberal lepšie.

It relieved more pain from people,

Ľuďom viac pomáhal od bolesti,

because expectations do change our physiology.

lebo očakávanie naozaj mení ľudskú fyziológiu.

And of course, we all know that in sports,

A ako všetci vieme zo športu,

if you are a fan of a particular team,

ak fandíte určitému tímu,

you can't help but see the game

budete zápas vnímať z pohľadu vášho mužstva.

develop from the perspective of your team.

So all of those are cases in which our preconceived notions

Vo všetkých týchto prípadoch naše predstavy a očakávania

and our expectations color our world.

zafarbujú náš svet.

But what happened in more important questions?

A ako je to s dôležitejšími témami?

What happened with questions that had to do with social justice?

S otázkami týkajúcimi sa spoločenskej spravodlivosti?

So we wanted to think about what is the blind tasting version

Rozmýšľali sme, ako by sme takto „naslepo“ mohli zistiť,

for thinking about inequality?

čo si ľudia myslia o nerovnosti.

So we started looking at inequality,

Zamerali sme sa teda na tému nerovnosti

and we did some large-scale surveys

a urobili veľký prieskum v USA a iných krajinách.

around the U.S. and other countries.

So we asked two questions:

Pýtali sme sa dve otázky:

Do people know what kind of level of inequality we have?

Vedia ľudia, akú úroveň nerovnosti máme?

And then, what level of inequality do we want to have?

A potom, akú úroveň nerovnosti by sme chceli mať.

So let's think about the first question.

Zastavme sa pri prvej otázke.

Imagine I took all the people in the U.S.

Predstavte si, že všetkých občanov USA

and I sorted them from the poorest on the right

zoradím sprava doľava od najchudobnejších po najbohatších.

to the richest on the left,

and then I divided them into five buckets:

A potom ich rozdelím do piatich blokov:

the poorest 20 percent, the next 20 percent,

najchudobnejších 20 %, ďalších 20 %

the next, the next, and the richest 20 percent.

ďalších a ďalších, a potom najbohatších 20 %.

And then I asked you to tell me how much wealth do you think

A potom sa vás spýtam, koľko bohatstva podľa vás je v každom z týchto blokov?

is concentrated in each of those buckets.

So to make it simpler, imagine I ask you to tell me,

Zjednoduším to, predstave si, že sa vás pýtam,

how much wealth do you think is concentrated

koľko bohatstva obsahujú dolné dva bloky,

in the bottom two buckets,

the bottom 40 percent?

čo je dolných 40 % ľudí.

Take a second. Think about it and have a number.

Zamyslite sa na chvíľku a pripravte si číslo.

Usually we don't think.

Väčšinou sa príliš nezamýšľame.

Think for a second, have a real number in your mind.

Pripravte si konkrétne číslo. Máte?

You have it?

Okay, here's what lots of Americans tell us.

OK, takto to vidí priemerný Američan.

They think that the bottom 20 percent

Dolných 20 % podľa neho vlastní 2,9 % bohatstva,

has about 2.9 percent of the wealth,

the next group has 6.4,

nasledujúci blok 6,4 %,

so together it's slightly more than nine.

Spolu teda niečo vyše 9 %.

The next group, they say, has 12 percent,

Ďalšia skupina vlastní 12 %,

20 percent,

potom 20 %,

and the richest 20 percent, people think has 58 percent of the wealth.

a najbohatších 20 % ľudí vraj vlastní 58 % bohatstva.

You can see how this relates to what you thought.

Môžete si to porovnať s vaším výsledkom.

Now, what's reality?

Aká je skutočnosť?

Reality is slightly different.

Trošku iná.

The bottom 20 percent has 0.1 percent of the wealth.

Dolných 20 % má 0,1 % majetku,

The next 20 percent has 0.2 percent of the wealth.

ďalších 20 % vlastní 0,2 %.

Together, it's 0.3.

Spolu teda 0,3 %.

The next group has 3.9,

Ďalšia skupina má 3,9 %,

11.3,

potom 11,3 %

and the richest group has 84-85 percent of the wealth.

a najbohatší vlastnia 84 – 85 % bohatstva.

So what we actually have and what we think we have

Je veľký rozdiel v tom, čo si myslíme, že máme, a čo máme naozaj.

are very different.

What about what we want?

A ako by sme to chceli mať?

How do we even figure this out?

Ako také niečo vôbec zistiť?

So to look at this,

My sme si pri výskume toho, čo ľudia naozaj chcú,

to look at what we really want,

we thought about the philosopher John Rawls.

pomohli filozofom Johnom Rawlsom.

If you remember John Rawls,

Ak si spomínate, John Rawls definoval spravodlivú spoločnosť takto:

he had this notion of what's a just society.

He said a just society

„Ak by ste o nej všetko vedeli, boli by ste ochotní vstúpiť do nej

is a society that if you knew everything about it,

you would be willing to enter it in a random place.

v akomkoľvek postavení.“

And it's a beautiful definition,

Je to krásna definícia,

because if you're wealthy, you might want the wealthy

lebo ak ste bohatí, budete možno chcieť

to have more money, the poor to have less.

bohatým pridať a chudobným ubrať

If you're poor, you might want more equality.

a ak ste chudobní, chcete zrejme väčšiu rovnosť.

But if you're going to go into that society

Ale ak neviete, aká bude vaša nová situácia,

in every possible situation, and you don't know,

you have to consider all the aspects.

musíte sa na to pozrieť z každej stránky.

It's a little bit like blind tasting in which you don't know

Je to niečo ako ochutnávka naslepo,

what the outcome will be when you make a decision,

keď sa musíte rozhodnúť predtým, než zistíte, ako sa veci majú.

and Rawls called this the "veil of ignorance."

Rawls to nazval „závojom neznalosti“.

So, we took another group, a large group of Americans,

Ďalšej veľkej skupiny amerických respondentov

and we asked them the question in the veil of ignorance.

sme sa pýtali cez tento závoj neznalosti:

What are the characteristics of a country that would make you want to join it,

Aká by mala byť majetková štruktúra krajiny, v ktorej by ste chceli žiť

knowing that you could end randomly at any place?

bez ohľadu na to, aké tam bude vaše postavenie?

And here is what we got.

Dostali sme toto:

What did people want to give to the first group,

Koľko ľudia chceli dať dolným 20 %?

the bottom 20 percent?

They wanted to give them about 10 percent of the wealth.

Chceli im dať okolo 10 % majetku.

The next group, 14 percent of the wealth,

Druhej skupine 14 %,

21, 22 and 32.

potom 21, 22 a 32 %.

Now, nobody in our sample wanted full equality.

Nikto v celej vzorke nechcel úplnú rovnosť.

Nobody thought that socialism is a fantastic idea in our sample.

Nikto nepovažoval socializmus za úžasnú myšlienku.

But what does it mean?

Čo to znamená?

It means that we have this knowledge gap

Odhaľuje to vedomostnú medzeru

between what we have and what we think we have,

medzi tým, čo máme, a čo si myslíme, že máme.

but we have at least as big a gap between what we think is right

A snáď ešte väčší je rozpor medzi tým, čo považujeme za spravodlivé,

to what we think we have.

Now, we can ask these questions, by the way, not just about wealth.

Týmto spôsobom sa, mimochodom, môžeme pýtať nielen na majetok.

We can ask it about other things as well.

So for example, we asked people from different parts of the world

A môžeme sa pýtať ľudí z rôznych kútov sveta.

about this question,

people who are liberals and conservatives,

Pýtali sme sa liberálov aj konzervatívcov,

and they gave us basically the same answer.

a ich odpovede boli veľmi podobné.

We asked rich and poor, they gave us the same answer,

Bohatí a chudobní odpovedali prakticky rovnako.

men and women,

Muži aj ženy,

NPR listeners and Forbes readers.

poslucháči verejnoprávneho rozhlasu aj čitatelia časopisu Forbes.

We asked people in England, Australia, the U.S. --

Ľudia z Anglicka, Austrálie, USA –

very similar answers.

veľmi podobné odpovede.

We even asked different departments of a university.

Pýtali sme sa dokonca ľudí z rôznych odborov.

We went to Harvard and we checked almost every department,

Na Harvarde sme obišli všetky katedry

and in fact, from Harvard Business School,

a až na pár ľudí z Harvard Business School,

where a few people wanted the wealthy to have more and the [poor] to have less,

ktorí by pridali bohatým a ubrali chudobným,

the similarity was astonishing.

bola podobnosť zarážajúca.

I know some of you went to Harvard Business School.

Niektorí z vás chodili na Harvard Business School, že?

We also asked this question about something else.

Pýtali sme sa aj na to, aký je dnes asi

We asked, what about the ratio of CEO pay to unskilled workers?

pomer príjmov riaditeľa podniku a nekvalifikovaného robotníka?

So you can see what people think is the ratio,

Toto si mysleli respondenti.

and then we can ask the question, what do they think should be the ratio?

A čo považovali za primerané?

And then we can ask, what is reality?

A aká je skutočnosť?

What is reality? And you could say, well, it's not that bad, right?

Zdá sa, že v skutočnosti to nie je také zlé.

The red and the yellow are not that different.

Červená a žltá sa príliš nelíši.

But the fact is, it's because I didn't draw them on the same scale.

Ale to len preto, že som ich nenakreslil v rovnakej mierke.

It's hard to see, there's yellow and blue in there.

Je ich zle vidieť, ale aj žltá a modrá tam sú.

So what about other outcomes of wealth?

A čo iné veci súvisiace s majetkom?

Wealth is not just about wealth.

Majetok nie je len o majetku.

We asked, what about things like health?

Pýtali sme sa napríklad na zdravie,

What about availability of prescription medication?

na dostupnosť liekov na predpis,

What about life expectancy?

na strednú dĺžku života,

What about life expectancy of infants?

na dojčenskú úmrtnosť.

How do we want this to be distributed?

Tie by ako mali byť rozdelené?

What about education for young people?

Čo vzdelanie pre mladých?

And for older people?

A čo pre starších?

And across all of those things, what we learned was that people

Z toho celého sa ukázalo,

don't like inequality of wealth,

že ľuďom sa majetková nerovnosť nepáči,

but there's other things where inequality, which is an outcome of wealth,

ale nerovnosť v ďalších oblastiach, ktoré s majetkom súvisia,

is even more aversive to them:

je ešte neprijateľnejšia.

for example, inequality in health or education.

Napríklad nerovnosť prístupu k zdraviu alebo ku vzdelaniu.

We also learned that people are particularly open

Tiež sme zistili, že by ľudia chceli zmeniť

to changes in equality when it comes to people

najmä nerovnosti týkajúce sa tých, ktorí o sebe nemôžu rozhodnúť:

who have less agency --

basically, young kids and babies,

predovšetkým malých detí,

because we don't think of them as responsible for their situation.

lebo tým neprisudzujeme zodpovednosť za ich situáciu.

So what are some lessons from this?

Čo z toho pre nás vyplýva?

We have two gaps:

Sú tu dva rozpory: medzi realitou a tým, čo si myslíme, a tiež tým, čo si želáme.

We have a knowledge gap and we have a desirability gap

And the knowledge gap is something that we think about,

Zamyslime sa nad tým prvým:

how do we educate people?

Ako ľudí vzdelávať?

How do we get people to think differently about inequality

Ako dosiahnuť, aby inak zmýšľali o nerovnosti a jej dôsledkoch,

and the consequences of inequality in terms of health, education,

ako je zdravie, vzdelanie, závisť, kriminalita atď.?

jealousy, crime rate, and so on?

Then we have the desirability gap.

Potom ten rozpor v tom, čo je žiadúce.

How do we get people to think differently about what we really want?

Aké zmeniť zmýšľanie ľudí o tom, čo naozaj chcú?

You see, the Rawls definition, the Rawls way of looking at the world,

Tá Rawlsova defininícia, jeho pohľad na svet,

the blind tasting approach,

prístup „ochutnávky naslepo“

takes our selfish motivation out of the picture.

z obrázku stiera našu sebeckú motiváciu.

How do we implement that to a higher degree

Ako dostať tento prístup do povedomia ľudí,

on a more extensive scale?

a to vo veľkom meradle?

And finally, we also have an action gap.

Je tu ešte jeden rozpor:

How do we take these things and actually do something about it?

medzi tým, ako tieto veci berieme a čo s tým robíme.

I think part of the answer is to think about people

Čiastočne to pochopíme, keď sa na ľudí pozrieme ako na malé deti,

like young kids and babies that don't have much agency,

ktoré o sebe príliš rozhodovať nemôžu,

because people seem to be more willing to do this.

lebo ľudia sú, zdá sa, ochotní takto fungovať.

To summarize, I would say, next time you go to drink beer or wine,

Na záver by som povedal, že keď pôjdete nabudúce na pivo alebo na víno,

first of all, think about, what is it in your experience that is real,

skúste rozlíšiť, čo z vašich vnemov je realita a čo je placebo efekt,

and what is it in your experience that is a placebo effect

plynúci z vášho očakávania.

coming from expectations?

And then think about what it also means for other decisions in your life,

A skúste to rozlíšiť aj pri iných rozhodnutiach vo vašom živote

and hopefully also for policy questions

a tiež pri politických otázkach,

that affect all of us.

ktoré sa týkajú nás všetkých.

Thanks a lot.

Ďakujem pekne.

(Applause)

(potlesk)