How equal do we want the world to be? You'd be surprised | Dan Ariely

Prevoditelj: Djurdjica Ercegovac Recezent: Ivan Stamenković

It would be nice to be objective in life,

Bilo bi lijepo u životu biti objektivan,

in many ways.

na mnogo načina.

The problem is that we have these color-tinted glasses

Problem je u tome što imamo te obojane naočale

as we look at all kinds of situations.

dok promatrano razne situacije.

For example, think about something as simple as beer.

Na primjer, razmislite o nečem jednostavnom kao pivo.

If I gave you a few beers to taste

Ako vam dadem da probate nekoliko piva

and I asked you to rate them on intensity and bitterness,

i upitam vas da ocijenite njihovu jačinu i gorčinu,

different beers would occupy different space.

različita piva zauzeti će različita mjesta.

But what if we tried to be objective about it?

No što ako pokušamo biti objektivni?

In the case of beer, it would be very simple.

U slučaju piva to bi bilo jako jednostavno.

What if we did a blind taste?

Što ako napravimo kušanje na slijepo?

Well, if we did the same thing, you tasted the same beer,

Pa, da smo učinili istu stvar, da ste kušali isto pivo,

now in the blind taste, things would look slightly different.

sada kušajući na slijepo, stvari bi izgledale malo drugačije.

Most of the beers will go into one place.

Većina piva upala bi na jedno mjesto.

You will basically not be able to distinguish them,

Vi ih u biti ne bi mogli razlikovati,

and the exception, of course, will be Guinness.

a iznimka bi, naravno, bio Guinness.

(Laughter)

(Smijeh)

Similarly, we can think about physiology.

Na sličan način možemo razmišljati o fiziologiji.

What happens when people expect something from their physiology?

Što se događa kada ljudi nešto očekuju od svoje fiziologije?

For example, we sold people pain medications.

Na primjer, ljudima smo prodali lijekove protiv boli.

Some people, we told them the medications were expensive.

Nekim ljudima smo rekli da su ti lijekovi bili skupi.

Some people, we told them it was cheap.

Nekim ljudima rekli smo da su bili jeftini.

And the expensive pain medication worked better.

I skuplji lijekovi protiv boli djelovali su bolje.

It relieved more pain from people,

Više su ljudima olakšali bol,

because expectations do change our physiology.

zbog toga jer očekivanja stvarno mijenjaju našu fiziologiju.

And of course, we all know that in sports,

I naravno, svi to znamo u sportu,

if you are a fan of a particular team,

ako ste navijač određenog tima,

you can't help but see the game

ne možete si pomoći da odvijanje utakmice ne gledate

develop from the perspective of your team.

iz perspektive svog tima.

So all of those are cases in which our preconceived notions

Dakle, sve su to slučajevi u kojima naši unaprijed stvoreni stavovi

and our expectations color our world.

i naša očekivanja bojaju naš svijet.

But what happened in more important questions?

No što se događa s mnogo važnijim pitanjima?

What happened with questions that had to do with social justice?

Što se događa s pitanjima koja su povezana sa socijalnom pravdom?

So we wanted to think about what is the blind tasting version

Stoga smo željeli razmotriti verziju kušanja na slijepo

for thinking about inequality?

za razmišljanje o nejednakosti.

So we started looking at inequality,

Pa smo počeli razmatrati nejednakost

and we did some large-scale surveys

i napravili smo par opsežnih anketa

around the U.S. and other countries.

širom SAD-a i drugih zemalja.

So we asked two questions:

Pa smo postavili dva pitanja:

Do people know what kind of level of inequality we have?

Znaju li ljudi koju razinu nejednakosti imamo?

And then, what level of inequality do we want to have?

A zatim, koju razinu nejednakosti želimo imati?

So let's think about the first question.

Pa hajdemo razmisliti o prvom pitanju.

Imagine I took all the people in the U.S.

Zamislite da sam uzeo sve ljude u SAD-u

and I sorted them from the poorest on the right

i poredao ih od najsiromašnijeg s desne strane

to the richest on the left,

do najbogatijeg s lijeve strane,

and then I divided them into five buckets:

te ih onda podijelio u pet grupa:

the poorest 20 percent, the next 20 percent,

najsiromašnijih 20 posto, sljedećih 20 posto,

the next, the next, and the richest 20 percent.

sljedećih, sljedećih, i najbogatijih 20 posto.

And then I asked you to tell me how much wealth do you think

I onda vas pitam da mi kažete koliko mislite da je bogatstva

is concentrated in each of those buckets.

koncentrirano u svakoj od tih grupa.

So to make it simpler, imagine I ask you to tell me,

Da pojednostavimo, zamislite da sam vas upitao,

how much wealth do you think is concentrated

koliko mislite da je bogatstva koncentrirano

in the bottom two buckets,

u najdonje dvije grupe,

the bottom 40 percent?

najdonjih 40 posto?

Take a second. Think about it and have a number.

Uzmite si časak. Razmislite i odaberite broj.

Usually we don't think.

Obično ne razmišljamo.

Think for a second, have a real number in your mind.

Razmislite sekundu, odaberite u glavi stvarni broj.

You have it?

Imate ga?

Okay, here's what lots of Americans tell us.

U redu, evo što nam kaže mnogo Amerikanaca.

They think that the bottom 20 percent

Oni misle da donjih 20 posto

has about 2.9 percent of the wealth,

ima oko 2,9 posto bogatstva,

the next group has 6.4,

sljedeća grupa ima 6,4

so together it's slightly more than nine.

tako da je to zajedno malo više od devet.

The next group, they say, has 12 percent,

Sljedeća grupa, kažu, ima 12 posto,

20 percent,

20 posto,

and the richest 20 percent, people think has 58 percent of the wealth.

i najbogatijih 20 posto, ljudi misle, ima 58 posto bogatstva.

You can see how this relates to what you thought.

Možete vidjeti u kojem je to odnosu s onim što ste vi mislili.

Now, what's reality?

Sada, što je stvarnost?

Reality is slightly different.

Stvarnost je malo drugačija.

The bottom 20 percent has 0.1 percent of the wealth.

Donjih 20 posto ima 0,1 posto bogatstva.

The next 20 percent has 0.2 percent of the wealth.

Sljedećih 20 posto ima 0,2 posto bogatstva.

Together, it's 0.3.

Zajedno to je 0,3.

The next group has 3.9,

Sljedeća grupa ima 3,9,

11.3,

11,3,

and the richest group has 84-85 percent of the wealth.

i najbogatija grupa ima 84-85 posto bogatstva.

So what we actually have and what we think we have

Dakle, ono što stvarno imamo i ono što mislimo da imamo

are very different.

jako se razlikuje.

What about what we want?

A kako je s onim što želimo?

How do we even figure this out?

Kako ćemo to uopće ustanoviti?

So to look at this,

Dakle da bi to ustanovili,

to look at what we really want,

da bi ustanovili što stvarno želimo,

we thought about the philosopher John Rawls.

sjetili smo se filozofa Johna Rowlsa.

If you remember John Rawls,

Ako se sjećate Johna Rowlsa,

he had this notion of what's a just society.

on je imao tu predstavu o tome što je to pravedno društvo.

He said a just society

On je rekao da je pravedno društvo

is a society that if you knew everything about it,

ono društvo u koje bi, znajući sve o njemu,

you would be willing to enter it in a random place.

bili voljni ući na bilo kojem mjestu.

And it's a beautiful definition,

I to je prekrasna definicija

because if you're wealthy, you might want the wealthy

jer ako ste bogati, vjerojatno biste željeli

da bogati imaju više novca, a siromašni manje.

to have more money, the poor to have less.

If you're poor, you might want more equality.

Ako ste siromašni, vjerojatno biste željeli više jednakosti.

But if you're going to go into that society

No ako namjeravate ući u to društvo

in every possible situation, and you don't know,

u svakoj mogućoj situaciji, a ne znate,

you have to consider all the aspects.

tada morate razmotriti sve aspekte.

It's a little bit like blind tasting in which you don't know

To je pomalo kao kušanje na slijepo u kojem ne znate

what the outcome will be when you make a decision,

što će biti ishod vaše odluke

and Rawls called this the "veil of ignorance."

i Rowls je to nazvao "veo neznanja".

So, we took another group, a large group of Americans,

Stoga smo uzeli drugu grupu, veliku grupu Amerikanaca,

and we asked them the question in the veil of ignorance.

i postavili smo im pitanje pod velom neznanja.

What are the characteristics of a country that would make you want to join it,

Koje karakteristike neke zemlje bi vas navele da joj se pridružite,

knowing that you could end randomly at any place?

znajući da biste se mogli naći na bilo kojem mjestu?

And here is what we got.

I evo što smo dobili.

What did people want to give to the first group,

Što su ljudi željeli dati prvoj grupi,

the bottom 20 percent?

donjih 20 posto?

They wanted to give them about 10 percent of the wealth.

Željeli su ima dati oko 10 posto bogatstva.

The next group, 14 percent of the wealth,

Sljedećoj grupi 14 posto bogatstva,

21, 22 and 32.

21, 22 i 32.

Now, nobody in our sample wanted full equality.

Dakle, nitko u našem uzorku nije želio potpunu jednakost.

Nobody thought that socialism is a fantastic idea in our sample.

Nitko iz našeg uzorka nije mislio da je socijalizam fantastična ideja.

But what does it mean?

No, što to znači?

It means that we have this knowledge gap

To znači da imamo taj jaz znanja

between what we have and what we think we have,

između toga što imamo i što mislimo da imamo,

but we have at least as big a gap between what we think is right

no bar jednako tako veliki jaz imamo između onoga što mislimo da je ispravno

to what we think we have.

i onoga što mislimo da imamo.

Now, we can ask these questions, by the way, not just about wealth.

Usput, ta pitanja možemo postaviti ne samo o bogatstvu.

We can ask it about other things as well.

Možemo ih postaviti i o drugim stvarima također.

So for example, we asked people from different parts of the world

Tako smo na primjer, ljudima iz različitih dijelova svijeta

about this question,

postavili ta pitanja,

people who are liberals and conservatives,

ljudima koji su liberali i konzervativci,

and they gave us basically the same answer.

i oni su nam dali načelno iste odgovore.

We asked rich and poor, they gave us the same answer,

Pitali smo bogate i siromašne, dobili smo iste odgovore,

men and women,

muškarce i žene,

NPR listeners and Forbes readers.

slušatelje Narodnog radija i čitatelje Forbesa.

We asked people in England, Australia, the U.S. --

Pitali smo ljude u Engleskoj, Australiji, SAD-u --

very similar answers.

vrlo slični odgovori.

Pitanja smo čak postavili i u različitim odjelima sveučilišta.

We even asked different departments of a university.

We went to Harvard and we checked almost every department,

Otišli smo na Harvard i provjerili skoro svaki odjel,

and in fact, from Harvard Business School,

i u stvari, na Harvard Business School,

where a few people wanted the wealthy to have more and the [poor] to have less,

gdje je malo ljudi željelo da bogati imaju više, a siromašni manje,

the similarity was astonishing.

sličnost je bila zapanjujuća.

I know some of you went to Harvard Business School.

Znam da su neki od vas pohađali Harvard Business School.

We also asked this question about something else.

Također smo ista pitanja postavili o nečem drugom.

We asked, what about the ratio of CEO pay to unskilled workers?

Upitali smo, što je s omjerom plaća direktora i nekvalificiranih radnika?

So you can see what people think is the ratio,

Pa možete vidjeti što ljudi misle da je omjer,

and then we can ask the question, what do they think should be the ratio?

a onda možemo postaviti pitanje, što misle kakav bi omjer trebao biti.

And then we can ask, what is reality?

A onda možemo upitati, što je stvarnost?

What is reality? And you could say, well, it's not that bad, right?

Što je stvarnost? I mogli biste reći, pa to nije tako loše, zar ne?

The red and the yellow are not that different.

Crvena i žuta se ne razlikuju toliko.

But the fact is, it's because I didn't draw them on the same scale.

No stvar je u tome da ih nisam nacrtao u istom mjerilu.

It's hard to see, there's yellow and blue in there.

Teško je vidjeti, tu unutra su žuta i plava.

So what about other outcomes of wealth?

Što je onda s drugim posljedicama bogatstva?

Wealth is not just about wealth.

Bogatstvo nije samo u bogatstvu.

We asked, what about things like health?

Upitali smo, a što je sa stvarima poput zdravlja?

What about availability of prescription medication?

Što je s dostupnošću lijekova na recept?

What about life expectancy?

Što s očekivanim životnim vijekom?

What about life expectancy of infants?

Što s očekivanim preživljavanjem novorođenčadi?

How do we want this to be distributed?

Kakvu distribucija toga želimo?

What about education for young people?

Što s obrazovanjem mladih ljudi?

And for older people?

A starijih?

And across all of those things, what we learned was that people

I kroz sve te stvari ustanovili smo da ljudi

don't like inequality of wealth,

ne vole nejednakost u bogatstvu,

but there's other things where inequality, which is an outcome of wealth,

ali postoje druge stvari gdje je nejednakost, koja je posljedica bogatstva,

is even more aversive to them:

ljudima čak još odbojnija:

for example, inequality in health or education.

na primjer, nejednakost u zdravlju ili obrazovanju.

We also learned that people are particularly open

Također smo ustanovili da su ljudi posebno otvoreni

to changes in equality when it comes to people

za promjene u jednakosti kada se radi o ljudima

who have less agency --

koji imaju manju mogućnost djelovanja --

basically, young kids and babies,

načelno, mala djeca i dojenčad,

because we don't think of them as responsible for their situation.

jer mislimo da oni nisu odgovorni za svoju situaciju.

So what are some lessons from this?

Dakle koje su lekcije iz ovoga?

We have two gaps:

Imamo dva jaza:

We have a knowledge gap and we have a desirability gap

Imamo jaz znanja i imamo jaz poželjnosti.

And the knowledge gap is something that we think about,

A jaz znanja je nešto o čemu razmišljamo,

how do we educate people?

kako obrazovati ljude?

How do we get people to think differently about inequality

Kako postići da ljudi drugačije razmišljaju o nejednakosti

and the consequences of inequality in terms of health, education,

i posljedicama nejednakosti u terminima zdravlja, obrazovanja,

jealousy, crime rate, and so on?

ljubomore, stope kriminala i tako dalje?

Then we have the desirability gap.

Potom imamo jaz poželjnosti.

How do we get people to think differently about what we really want?

Kako postići da ljudi drugačije razmišljaju o onom što stvarno žele?

You see, the Rawls definition, the Rawls way of looking at the world,

Vidite, Rowlsova definicija, Rowlsov pogled na svijet,

the blind tasting approach,

koncept kušanja na slijepo,

takes our selfish motivation out of the picture.

iz priče eliminira našu sebičnu motivaciju.

How do we implement that to a higher degree

Kako ćemo to implementirati na višoj razini

on a more extensive scale?

u širim mjerilima?

And finally, we also have an action gap.

I na kraju, imamo također i jaz djelovanja.

How do we take these things and actually do something about it?

Kako uzeti ove stvari i stvarno učiniti nešto u vezi toga?

I think part of the answer is to think about people

Ja mislim da je dio odgovora da razmišljamo o ljudima

like young kids and babies that don't have much agency,

poput mladih i male djece koji nemaju puno mogućnosti djelovanja

because people seem to be more willing to do this.

jer izgleda da ljudi radije to rade.

To summarize, I would say, next time you go to drink beer or wine,

Da zaključim, rekao bih, sljedeći puta kada pijete pivo ili vino,

first of all, think about, what is it in your experience that is real,

prije svega razmislite što je to u vašem doživljaju što je stvarno,

and what is it in your experience that is a placebo effect

a što je to u vašem doživljaju što je placebo efekt

coming from expectations?

koji dolazi od očekivanja?

And then think about what it also means for other decisions in your life,

I onda razmislite također što to znači za druge odluke u vašem životu,

and hopefully also for policy questions

i također, nadajmo se, za politička pitanja

that affect all of us.

koja utječu na sve nas.

Thanks a lot.

Puno hvala.

(Applause)

(Pljesak)