Michael Sandel: Why we shouldn't trust markets with our civic life

翻译人员: Ron Chao 校对人员: Shengwei Cai

Here's a question we need to rethink together:

我们需要共同反思一个问题

What should be the role of money

金钱和市场

and markets in our societies?

在社会上应该扮演什么角色？

Today, there are very few things

现在极少东西

that money can't buy.

是金钱买不到的

If you're sentenced to a jail term

如果你被判刑

in Santa Barbara, California,

在加州圣巴巴拉入监

you should know

你应该知道

that if you don't like the standard accommodations,

如果不喜欢标准牢房

you can buy a prison cell upgrade.

可以花钱升级

It's true. For how much, do you think?

没错！你们猜要花多少钱？

What would you guess?

猜猜看？

Five hundred dollars?

500美元？

It's not the Ritz-Carlton. It's a jail!

监狱可不是丽思卡尔顿酒店

Eighty-two dollars a night.

82元一晚

Eighty-two dollars a night.

每晚收费82美元

If you go to an amusement park

如果你去游乐园

and don't want to stand in the long lines

不愿为了热门游乐设施

for the popular rides,

大排长龙

there is now a solution.

现在有办法解决

In many theme parks, you can pay extra

许多主题公园，你只要多付钱

to jump to the head of the line.

就可以不用排队

They call them Fast Track or VIP tickets.

这叫快速通道或VIP票

And this isn't only happening in amusement parks.

这种现象不限于游乐园

In Washington, D.C., long lines,

在华盛顿特区

queues sometimes form

偶尔也要大排长龙

for important Congressional hearings.

才能参加重要的国会听证会

Now some people don't like to wait in long queues,

可是有些人不喜欢排长队

maybe overnight, even in the rain.

可能是彻夜排队，甚至会淋雨

So now, for lobbyists and others

游说者和一些人

who are very keen to attend these hearings

非常想参加听证会

but don't like to wait, there are companies,

但不想排队，有公司因应而生

line-standing companies,

这叫排队公司

and you can go to them.

你可以找他们

You can pay them a certain amount of money,

只要付合适的价钱

they hire homeless people and others who need a job

公司就雇用游民或需要工作的人

to stand waiting in the line for as long as it takes,

这个队需要排多久他们就等多久

and the lobbyist, just before the hearing begins,

游说者只要在听证会开始前

can take his or her place at the head of the line

取代排在最前面的人

and a seat in the front of the room.

就可以坐在会场的前排

Paid line standing.

这是付费排队服务

It's happening, the recourse to market mechanisms

市场机制运用技巧

and market thinking and market solutions,

市场思维方式和市场解决方案技巧

in bigger arenas.

在更大舞台也看得到

Take the way we fight our wars.

例如我们的作战方式

Did you know that, in Iraq and Afghanistan,

你知不知道，在伊拉克和阿富汗

there were more private military contractors on the ground

私营军事承包商的数量

than there were U.S. military troops?

多于美国军队人数

Now this isn't because we had a public debate

并非因为我们公开辩论过

about whether we wanted to outsource war

是否要外包战争

to private companies,

给私人公司

but this is what has happened.

但这是既成事实

Over the past three decades,

过去三十年

we have lived through a quiet revolution.

我们经历了一场宁静革命

We've drifted almost without realizing it

几乎未察觉我们已经

from having a market economy

从市场经济

to becoming market societies.

渐渐变成市场社会

The difference is this: A market economy is a tool,

二者差别在于：市场经济是工具

a valuable and effective tool,

一种有用、有效的工具

for organizing productive activity,

用于组织生产活动

but a market society is a place where

但是市场社会

almost everything is up for sale.

几乎凡事都可以出售

It's a way of life, in which market thinking

市场社会是一种生活方式

and market values begin to dominate

市场的思维和价值开始主导

every aspect of life:

生活的每个层面：

personal relations, family life, health, education,

私人关系、家庭生活、健康、教育

politics, law, civic life.

政治、法律、公民生活

Now, why worry? Why worry about our becoming

为什么要担心？我们何必担心

market societies?

变成市场社会？

For two reasons, I think.

我认为原因有两个

One of them has to do with inequality.

原因之一是不平等

The more things money can buy,

钱能买到的东西越多

the more affluence, or the lack of it, matters.

富裕与否就越重要

If the only thing that money determined

如果钱只能让人

was access to yachts or fancy vacations or BMWs,

买游艇、宝马或是享受豪华假期

then inequality wouldn't matter very much.

不平等就没那么重要

But when money comes increasingly to govern

但是当金钱越来越能够支配

access to the essentials of the good life --

美好生活的要素--

decent health care, access to the best education,

像样的医疗服务，优良的教育

political voice and influence in campaigns --

选举中的政治话语权和影响力--

when money comes to govern all of those things,

当金钱完全支配了这些要素

inequality matters a great deal.

不平等就事关重大

And so the marketization of everything

因此，全面市场化

sharpens the sting of inequality

使不平等及其社会和公民效应

and its social and civic consequence.

刺痛更为尖锐

That's one reason to worry.

不平等只是原因之一

There's a second reason

另一个原因

apart from the worry about inequality,

也令人担心

and it's this:

那就是

with some social goods and practices,

有些社会商品和常规

when market thinking and market values enter,

一旦被市场思维和价值介入

they may change the meaning of those practices

那些常规的意义可能因此会改变

and crowd out attitudes and norms

值得我们关心的态度和规范

worth caring about.

也可能被排挤

I'd like to take an example

我想举一个

of a controversial use of a market mechanism,

运用市场机制而受争议的例子

a cash incentive, and see what you think about it.

即金钱奖励机制，看看你们怎么想的

Many schools struggle with the challenge

许多学校面临严峻挑战

of motivating kids, especially kids

怎样才能鼓励孩子用功读书

from disadvantaged backgrounds, to study hard,

尤其是来自弱势背景的孩子

to do well in school, to apply themselves.

怎样才能表现良好，努力向上

Some economists have proposed a market solution:

一些经济学家提出市场解决方案

Offer cash incentives to kids for getting good grades

提供金钱奖励，只要孩子成绩好

or high test scores

或考试分数高

or for reading books.

或阅读书籍

They've tried this, actually.

事实上他们尝试过这个办法

They've done some experiments

在美国一些主要城市

in some major American cities.

他们做过实验

In New York, in Chicago, in Washington, D.C.,

在纽约、芝加哥、华盛顿特区

they've tried this, offering 50 dollars for an A,

他们的做法是：成绩A给50美元

35 dollars for a B.

B则给35美元

In Dallas, Texas, they have a program that offers

德州达拉斯有这样一个计划

eight-year-olds two dollars for each book they read.

八岁的学童每读一本书奖励两美元

So let's see what -- Some people are in favor,

有些人支持这个方法

some people are opposed to this cash incentive

有些人反对利用金钱

to motivate achievement.

鼓励学生向上

Let's see what people here think about it.

我想知道你们的看法

Imagine that you are the head of a major school system,

假设你是一个主要学区的主管

and someone comes to you with this proposal.

有人向你提出这种建议

And let's say it's a foundation. They will provide the funds.

假设是基金会的提议，他们出钱

You don't have to take it out of your budget.

学校不用出钱

How many would be in favor

有多少人会赞成

and how many would be opposed to giving it a try?

多少人会反对对此进行尝试

Let's see by a show of hands.

请举手回答

First, how many think it might at least be worth a try

认为至少值得一试的人

to see if it would work? Raise your hand.

请举手

And how many would be opposed? How many would --

反对的人有多少？

So the majority here are opposed,

看来多数人反对

but a sizable minority are in favor.

但赞成的也不少

Let's have a discussion.

我们讨论一下

Let's start with those of you who object,

从反方开始

who would rule it out even before trying.

你们连试都不愿意试

What would be your reason?

理由何在？

Who will get our discussion started? Yes?

谁愿意起个头？你？

Heike Moses: Hello everyone, I'm Heike,

Heike Moses：大家好，我是Heike

and I think it just kills the intrinsic motivation,

我认为那会抹杀内在的动力

so in the respect that children, if they would like to read,

如果学童想要读书

you just take this incentive away

钱只会驱除内在的动力

in just paying them, so it just changes behavior.

给钱只能改变行为

Michael Sandel: Takes the intrinsic incentive away.

Michael Sandel：驱除内在的动力

What is, or should be, the intrinsic motivation?

内在的动力是什么？应该是什么？

HM: Well, the intrinsic motivation

HM：内在动力嘛

should be to learn.

应该是学习

MS: To learn. HM: To get to know the world.

MS：学习 HM：为了认识世界

And then, if you stop paying them, what happens then?

要是停止给钱，结果会怎样？

Then they stop reading?

他们会不会停止阅读？

MS: Now, let's see if there's someone who favors,

MS：现在看看有没有赞成的

who thinks it's worth trying this.

谁认为值得一试

Elizabeth Loftus: I'm Elizabeth Loftus,

Elizabeth Loftus：我是Elizabeth Loftus

and you said worth a try, so why not try it

你问是否值得一试，试试看又何妨

and do the experiment and measure things?

何妨做做实验，衡量结果

MS: And measure. And what would you measure?

MS：衡量。衡量什么？

You'd measure how many --

你要衡量有多少...

EL: How many books they read

EL：他们读了多少书

and how many books they continued to read

停止给钱之后

after you stopped paying them.

又继续读了多少书

MS: Oh, after you stopped paying.

MS：哦，不给钱以后读了多少

All right, what about that?

行，这可以嘛？

HM: To be frank, I just think

HM：老实说，我认为

this is, not to offend anyone, a very American way.

我无意冒犯，这非常美国作风

(Laughter) (Applause)

（笑声）（掌声）

MS: All right. What's emerged from this discussion

MS：好，这个讨论

is the following question:

点出了一个问题：

Will the cash incentive drive out or corrupt

金钱奖励会不会驱除或败坏

or crowd out the higher motivation,

或排挤更高层次的动力？

the intrinsic lesson that we hope to convey,

我们希望传达的内在动力

which is to learn to love to learn and to read

就是培养对学习的热爱

for their own sakes?

以及为阅读而阅读

And people disagree about what the effect will be,

市场机制的效果，大家意见不同

but that seems to be the question,

但这似乎是问题之所在

that somehow a market mechanism

市场机制或金钱奖励

or a cash incentive teaches the wrong lesson,

似乎是错误的教学

and if it does, what will become of these children later?

如果真的错了，学童将来会怎样？

I should tell you what's happened with these experiments.

我应该告诉你们实验的结果

The cash for good grades has had very mixed results,

用钱奖励好成绩，毁誉参半

for the most part has not resulted in higher grades.

大体上不会导致更佳的成绩

The two dollars for each book

读一本书给两美元

did lead those kids to read more books.

学童确实读更多书

It also led them to read shorter books.

也因此看页数较少的书

(Laughter)

（笑声）

But the real question is,

但真正的问题是

what will become of these kids later?

这些孩子将来会怎样

Will they have learned that reading is a chore,

会不会认定阅读是苦差事

a form of piecework to be done for pay, that's the worry,

是按件计酬的工作，那就令人担心

or may it lead them to read maybe for the wrong reason initially

也可能他们开始或许动机不正

but then lead them to fall in love with reading for its own sake?

但日后会爱上阅读的乐趣

Now, what this, even this brief debate, brings out

连这小小的辩论也指出了

is something that many economists overlook.

许多经济学家疏忽之处

Economists often assume

经济学家通常认为

that markets are inert,

市场是钝化的

that they do not touch or taint the goods they exchange.

不会影响或污染其交易的商品

Market exchange, they assume,

他们以为市场的交易

doesn't change the meaning or value

改变不了

of the goods being exchanged.

商品的意义和价值

This may be true enough

这种假设可能成立

if we're talking about material goods.

如果指的是物质商品

If you sell me a flat screen television

例如你卖给我平面电视

or give me one as a gift,

或是送给我当礼物

it will be the same good.

东西质量都一样好

It will work the same either way.

功能怎么都一样

But the same may not be true

但未必事事如此

if we're talking about nonmaterial goods

如果是非物质商品

and social practices such as teaching and learning

例如执教和学习等社会常规

or engaging together in civic life.

或是共同参与公民生活

In those domains, bringing market mechanisms

在这些领域引进市场机制

and cash incentives may undermine

和金钱奖励可能会破坏

or crowd out nonmarket values and attitudes

或排挤我们该关心的

worth caring about.

非市场价值和态度

Once we see

一旦我们了解

that markets and commerce,

市场和交易

when extended beyond the material domain,

跨越物质领域的时候

can change the character of the goods themselves,

可以改变商品本身的特质

can change the meaning of the social practices,

可以改变社会常规的意义

as in the example of teaching and learning,

执教和学习就是例子

we have to ask where markets belong

我们就要问，哪些地方适合市场

and where they don't,

哪些地方不适合

where they may actually undermine

哪些地方其实可能会破坏

values and attitudes worth caring about.

我们该关心的价值和态度

But to have this debate,

但是要辩论

we have to do something we're not very good at,

就必须去做我们不太擅长的事

and that is to reason together in public

那就是一起公开讨论

about the value and the meaning

我们珍惜的社会常规

of the social practices we prize,

其价值和意义

from our bodies to family life

从自己的身体到家庭生活

to personal relations to health

从私人关系到健康

to teaching and learning to civic life.

从执教和学习到公民生活

Now these are controversial questions,

这些问题都有争议

and so we tend to shrink from them.

所以我们较易退缩

In fact, during the past three decades,

事实上过去30年来

when market reasoning and market thinking

市场论据和市场思维

have gathered force and gained prestige,

已经凝聚力量并且受到尊崇

our public discourse during this time

同时我们的公共谈话

has become hollowed out,

却已空洞化

empty of larger moral meaning.

缺乏更宏大的道德意义

For fear of disagreement, we shrink from these questions.

因为害怕争论，我们避而不谈

But once we see that markets

不过一旦我们了解

change the character of goods,

市场会改变商品的特质

we have to debate among ourselves

我们就必须讨论

these bigger questions

这些更大的问题

about how to value goods.

关于商品价值的问题

One of the most corrosive effects

凡事标价

of putting a price on everything

很严重的腐蚀了

is on commonality,

我们的共性

the sense that we are all in it together.

也就是同舟共济的感觉

Against the background of rising inequality,

在不平等激增的背景下

marketizing every aspect of life

把生活各层面市场化

leads to a condition where those who are affluent

导致富裕的人

and those who are of modest means

和资源有限的人

increasingly live separate lives.

日益分道扬镳

We live and work and shop and play

无论生活、工作、购物、娱乐

in different places.

都在不同的地方

Our children go to different schools.

子女进入不同的学校

This isn't good for democracy,

这对民主是不利的

nor is it a satisfying way to live,

也不是令人满意的生活方式

even for those of us who can afford

即使我们能够花钱

to buy our way to the head of the line.

排在队列最前，也不例外

Here's why.

原因是

Democracy does not require perfect equality,

民主虽然不必完全平等

but what it does require

但必要的是

is that citizens share in a common life.

公民能分享共同的生活

What matters is that people

重要的是

of different social backgrounds

不同社会背景的人

and different walks of life

不同身分的人

encounter one another,

互相接触

bump up against one another

碰到一起

in the ordinary course of life,

而且是在日常生活之中

because this is what teaches us

因为这样我们才能学会

to negotiate and to abide our differences.

协商以及容忍差异

And this is how we come to care for the common good.

这样我们才会关心共同利益

And so, in the end, the question of markets

所以到头来市场的问题

is not mainly an economic question.

主要不是经济问题

It's really a question of how we want to live together.

关键是我们要如何共同生活

Do we want a society where everything is up for sale,

我们想要凡事标价的社会？

or are there certain moral and civic goods

或者某些道德和公民商品

that markets do not honor

是市场不重视

and money cannot buy?

金钱买不到的？

Thank you very much.

非常感谢

(Applause)

（掌声）