Michael Sandel: Why we shouldn't trust markets with our civic life

Prevoditelj: Djurdjica Ercegovac Recezent: Matko Bošnjak

Here's a question we need to rethink together:

Evo pitanja o kojem bismo trebali ponovo zajedno razmisliti:

What should be the role of money

Koja bi trebala biti uloga novca

and markets in our societies?

i tržišta u našim društvima?

Today, there are very few things

Danas postoji vrlo malo stvari

that money can't buy.

koje se ne mogu kupiti novcem.

If you're sentenced to a jail term

Ako ste osuđeni na zatvorsku kaznu

in Santa Barbara, California,

u Santa Barbari, u Kaliforniji,

you should know

trebali biste znati

that if you don't like the standard accommodations,

da ukoliko vam se ne sviđa standardni smještaj,

you can buy a prison cell upgrade.

možete nadoplatiti za smještaj u boljoj ćeliji.

It's true. For how much, do you think?

To je istina. Kolika je nadoplata, što mislite?

What would you guess?

Pokušajte pogoditi.

Five hundred dollars?

Pet stotina dolara?

It's not the Ritz-Carlton. It's a jail!

To nije Ritz-Carlton hotel To je zatvor!

Eighty-two dollars a night.

Osamdeset i dva dolara za noć.

Eighty-two dollars a night.

Osamdeset i dva dolara za noć.

If you go to an amusement park

Ako odete u zabavni park

and don't want to stand in the long lines

i ne želite stajati u dugačkim redovima

for the popular rides,

za popularne vožnje,

there is now a solution.

sada postoji rješenje.

In many theme parks, you can pay extra

U mnogim tematskim parkovima možete dodatno platiti

da biste skočili na početak reda.

to jump to the head of the line.

They call them Fast Track or VIP tickets.

To zovu Brza traka ili VIP ulaznice.

And this isn't only happening in amusement parks.

I to se ne događa samo u zabavnim parkovima.

In Washington, D.C., long lines,

U Washintonu D.C. dugački redovi čekanja

queues sometimes form

ponekad nastaju

for important Congressional hearings.

za važne rasprave Kongresa.

Now some people don't like to wait in long queues,

No, neki ljudi ne vole čekati u dugačkim redovima

maybe overnight, even in the rain.

možda i cijelu noć, čak i na kiši.

So now, for lobbyists and others

Zato sada, za lobiste i druge

who are very keen to attend these hearings

koji žarko žele prisustvovati tim raspravama,

but don't like to wait, there are companies,

ali ne žele čekati, postoje kompanije,

line-standing companies,

kompanije za čekanje u redovima,

and you can go to them.

kojima se možete obratiti.

You can pay them a certain amount of money,

Možete im platiti određeni iznos,

they hire homeless people and others who need a job

oni unajmljuju beskućnike i druge koji trebaju posao

to stand waiting in the line for as long as it takes,

da stoje u redu koliko god je potrebno,

and the lobbyist, just before the hearing begins,

a lobist, upravo prije početka sjednice,

can take his or her place at the head of the line

može zauzeti svoje mjesto na početku reda

and a seat in the front of the room.

i sjedalo u prvim redovima dvorane.

Paid line standing.

Plaćeno stajanje u redu.

It's happening, the recourse to market mechanisms

Posezanje za tržišnim mehanizmima

and market thinking and market solutions,

i tržišnim razmišljanjem i tržišnim rješenjima

in bigger arenas.

događa se i u većim razmjerima.

Take the way we fight our wars.

Uzmite način na koji vodimo ratove.

Did you know that, in Iraq and Afghanistan,

Jeste li znali da je u Iraku i Afganistanu

there were more private military contractors on the ground

bilo više privatnih vojnih kompanija

than there were U.S. military troops?

nego američkih vojnih trupa?

Now this isn't because we had a public debate

No to nije zato jer smo imali javnu raspravu

about whether we wanted to outsource war

o tome želimo li vođenje rata

to private companies,

povjeriti privatnim kompanijama;

but this is what has happened.

no to se dogodilo.

Over the past three decades,

Tijekom zadnja tri desetljeća

we have lived through a quiet revolution.

proživljavali smo tihu revoluciju.

We've drifted almost without realizing it

Gotovo ne shvaćajući, odlutali smo,

from having a market economy

i od društva sa tržišnom ekonomijom

to becoming market societies.

postali tržišno društvo.

The difference is this: A market economy is a tool,

Razlika je u ovome: Tržišna ekonomija je alat,

a valuable and effective tool,

dragocjen i učinkovit alat,

for organizing productive activity,

za organiziranje proizvodne aktivnosti,

but a market society is a place where

no tržišno društvo je mjesto

almost everything is up for sale.

gdje je gotovo sve na prodaju.

It's a way of life, in which market thinking

To je način života u kojem tržišno razmišljanje

and market values begin to dominate

i tržišne vrijednosti počinju dominirati

every aspect of life:

svakim aspektom života:

personal relations, family life, health, education,

osobnim odnosima, obiteljskim životom, zdravljem, obrazovanjem,

politics, law, civic life.

politikom, zakonom, građanskim životom.

Now, why worry? Why worry about our becoming

No, zašto brinuti? Zašto brinuti o tome

market societies?

što postajemo tržišna društva?

For two reasons, I think.

Ja mislim iz dva razloga.

One of them has to do with inequality.

Jedan od njih odnosi se na nejednakost.

The more things money can buy,

Što se više stvari može kupiti novcem,

the more affluence, or the lack of it, matters.

to je važnije bogatstvo odnosno njegov manjak.

If the only thing that money determined

Kada bi jedina stvar o kojoj odlučuje novac

was access to yachts or fancy vacations or BMWs,

bila dostupnost jahti ili luksuznih putovanja ili BMW-ova

then inequality wouldn't matter very much.

tada nejednakost ne bi bila jako važna.

But when money comes increasingly to govern

No, kada novac sve više počinje upravljati

access to the essentials of the good life --

dostupom do osnovnih sredstava za dobar život --

decent health care, access to the best education,

primjerena zdravstvena skrb, dostupnost najboljeg obrazovanja,

political voice and influence in campaigns --

politički glas i utjecaj u kampanjama --

when money comes to govern all of those things,

kada novac počinje upravljati svim tim stvarima

inequality matters a great deal.

nejednakost postaje jako važna.

And so the marketization of everything

I zato, dodjeljivanje tržišne vrijednosti svemu

sharpens the sting of inequality

zaoštrava žalac nejednakosti

and its social and civic consequence.

i njene socijalne i građanske posljedice.

That's one reason to worry.

To je jedan razlog za brigu.

There's a second reason

Postoji drugi razlog

apart from the worry about inequality,

bez obzira na brigu o nejednakosti,

and it's this:

a taj je sljedeći:

with some social goods and practices,

ima nekih društvenih dobara i usluga

when market thinking and market values enter,

kojima bi tržišno razmišljanje i tržišne vrijednosti

they may change the meaning of those practices

mogli promijeniti njihovo značenje

and crowd out attitudes and norms

i istisnuti stavove i mjerila

worth caring about.

o kojima vrijedi brinuti.

I'd like to take an example

Kao primjer kontraverznog korištenja

of a controversial use of a market mechanism,

tržišnog mehanizma, želio bih uzeti

a cash incentive, and see what you think about it.

novčani poticaj i vidjeti što vi mislite o tome.

Many schools struggle with the challenge

Mnoge se škole bore s izazovom

of motivating kids, especially kids

motiviranja djece, pogotovo siromašnije djece,

from disadvantaged backgrounds, to study hard,

da marljivo uče, dobro prolaze u školi,

to do well in school, to apply themselves.

da se zalažu.

Some economists have proposed a market solution:

Neki ekonomisti su predložili tržišno rješenje:

Offer cash incentives to kids for getting good grades

Ponuditi djeci novčani poticaj za dobre ocjene

or high test scores

ili bolje rezultate na testovima

or for reading books.

ili za čitanje knjiga.

They've tried this, actually.

To su ustvari i probali.

They've done some experiments

Proveli su neke eksperimente

in some major American cities.

u nekoliko većih američkih gradova.

In New York, in Chicago, in Washington, D.C.,

U New Yorku, u Chicagu, u Washingtonu D.C.,

they've tried this, offering 50 dollars for an A,

su to pokušali nudeći 50 dolara za peticu,

35 dollars for a B.

35 dolara za četvorku.

In Dallas, Texas, they have a program that offers

U Dallasu, u Texasu, imaju program

eight-year-olds two dollars for each book they read.

koji osmogodišnjacima nudi dva dolara za svaku pročitanu knjigu.

So let's see what -- Some people are in favor,

Pa da vidimo što -- Neki ljudi podržavaju,

some people are opposed to this cash incentive

neki ljudi su protiv ovog novčanog poticaja

to motivate achievement.

za motiviranje uspjeha.

Let's see what people here think about it.

Da vidimo što ljudi ovdje misle o tome.

Imagine that you are the head of a major school system,

Zamislite da ste ravnatelj velikog školskog sustava,

and someone comes to you with this proposal.

i netko vam dođe s tim prijedlogom.

And let's say it's a foundation. They will provide the funds.

I recimo da je to fondacija. Oni će osigurati sredstva.

You don't have to take it out of your budget.

Vi ne morate trošiti svoj budžet.

How many would be in favor

Koliko bi vas bilo za,

and how many would be opposed to giving it a try?

a koliko protiv da se to proba?

Let's see by a show of hands.

Da vidimo dizanjem ruku.

First, how many think it might at least be worth a try

Prvo, koliko vas misli da bi bar vrijedilo pokušati

to see if it would work? Raise your hand.

da se vidi bi li funkcioniralo? Podignite ruke.

And how many would be opposed? How many would --

A koliko bi vas bilo protiv? Koliko bi --

So the majority here are opposed,

Dakle, većina ovdje je protiv,

but a sizable minority are in favor.

ali znatna manjina je za.

Let's have a discussion.

Hajdemo to prodiskutirati.

Let's start with those of you who object,

Počnimo s onima koji su protiv,

who would rule it out even before trying.

koji bi to odbacili i prije no što pokušaju.

What would be your reason?

Koji bi bio vaš razlog?

Who will get our discussion started? Yes?

Tko će započeti našu diskusiju? Da?

Heike Moses: Dobar dan svima, ja sam Heike,

Heike Moses: Hello everyone, I'm Heike,

and I think it just kills the intrinsic motivation,

i ja mislim da to ubija intrinzičnu motivaciju

so in the respect that children, if they would like to read,

u smislu da ta djeca, ako bi voljela čitati,

you just take this incentive away

vi im samo oduzimate taj poticaj plaćajući im

in just paying them, so it just changes behavior.

pa to samo mijenja ponašanje.

Michael Sandel: Takes the intrinsic incentive away.

Michael Sandel: Oduzima intrinzičnu inicijativu.

What is, or should be, the intrinsic motivation?

Što je, ili bi trebala biti, intrinzična motivacija?

HM: Well, the intrinsic motivation

HM: Pa, intrinzična motivacija

should be to learn.

bi trebala biti učenje.

MS: To learn. HM: To get to know the world.

MS: Učenje. HM: Upoznavanje svijeta.

And then, if you stop paying them, what happens then?

A onda, ako ih prestanete plaćati, što se tada događa?

Then they stop reading?

Onda oni prestaju čitati?

MS: Now, let's see if there's someone who favors,

MS: Da vidimo ima li netko tko je za,

who thinks it's worth trying this.

tko misli da to vrijedi pokušati.

Elizabeth Loftus: I'm Elizabeth Loftus,

Elizabeth Loftus: Ja sam Elizabeth Loftus,

and you said worth a try, so why not try it

i rekli ste vrijedi pokušati, pa zašto ne pokušati

and do the experiment and measure things?

i provesti eksperiment i izmjeriti stvari?

MS: And measure. And what would you measure?

MS: I izmjeriti. A što biste vi mjerili?

You'd measure how many --

Mjerili biste koliko --

EL: How many books they read

EL: Koliko knjiga su pročitali

and how many books they continued to read

i koliko knjiga nastavljaju čitati

nakon što ste im prestali plaćati.

after you stopped paying them.

MS: Oh, after you stopped paying.

MS: Aha, nakon što ste prestali plaćati.

All right, what about that?

Dobro, što mislite o tome?

HM: To be frank, I just think

HM: Iskreno, mislim samo da je to -- ne želim nikoga uvrijediti --

this is, not to offend anyone, a very American way.

vrlo američki način.

(Laughter) (Applause)

(Smijeh) (Pljesak)

MS: All right. What's emerged from this discussion

MS: U redu. Ono što je iskrslo iz ove diskusije

is the following question:

je sljedeće pitanje:

Will the cash incentive drive out or corrupt

Hoće li novčani poticaj odagnati, ili iskvariti,

or crowd out the higher motivation,

ili istisnuti višu motivaciju,

the intrinsic lesson that we hope to convey,

intrinzičnu lekciju koju se nadamo prenijeti,

which is to learn to love to learn and to read

a to je naučiti voljeti učenje i čitanje

for their own sakes?

zbog njih samih?

And people disagree about what the effect will be,

I ljudi se ne slažu o tome koji će učinak biti,

but that seems to be the question,

no to je izgleda pitanje,

that somehow a market mechanism

da, na neki način, tržišni mehanizam

or a cash incentive teaches the wrong lesson,

ili novčani poticaj uči pogrešnu lekciju,

and if it does, what will become of these children later?

a ako to čini, što će biti s tom djecom kasnije?

I should tell you what's happened with these experiments.

Moram vam reći što se dogodilo s tim eksperimentima.

The cash for good grades has had very mixed results,

Novac za dobre ocjene imao je vrlo miješane rezultate,

for the most part has not resulted in higher grades.

uglavnom nije rezultirao boljim ocjenama.

The two dollars for each book

Dva dolara za svaku knjigu

did lead those kids to read more books.

navela su klince da čitaju više knjiga.

It also led them to read shorter books.

Navela su ih također da čitaju kraće knjige.

(Laughter)

(Smijeh)

But the real question is,

No pravo pitanje je,

what will become of these kids later?

što će s tom djecom biti kasnije?

Will they have learned that reading is a chore,

Hoće li oni naučiti da je čitanje zaduženje,

a form of piecework to be done for pay, that's the worry,

oblik rada koji se plaća po komadu, to je problem,

or may it lead them to read maybe for the wrong reason initially

ili ih to može navesti da čitaju, možda iz krivih razloga u početku,

but then lead them to fall in love with reading for its own sake?

no potom da se zaljube u čitanje zbog njega samog?

Now, what this, even this brief debate, brings out

Ovo što ova, čak i ovako kratka, rasprava pokazuje

is something that many economists overlook.

nešto je što su mnogi ekonomisti previdjeli.

Economists often assume

Ekonomisti često pretpostavljaju

that markets are inert,

da su tržišta inertna,

that they do not touch or taint the goods they exchange.

da ne dotiču niti kvare robu koju razmjenjuju.

Market exchange, they assume,

Tržišna razmjena, smatraju oni,

doesn't change the meaning or value

ne mijenja značenje ili vrijednost

of the goods being exchanged.

roba koje se razmjenjuju.

This may be true enough

To doduše može biti istina

if we're talking about material goods.

ako govorimo o materijalnoj robi.

If you sell me a flat screen television

Ako mi prodate plazma televizor,

or give me one as a gift,

ili mi ga poklonite,

it will be the same good.

to će biti ista roba.

It will work the same either way.

Radit će jednako u oba slučaja.

But the same may not be true

Ali, isto možda nije istina

if we're talking about nonmaterial goods

ako govorimo o nematerijalnoj robi i društvenim praksama

and social practices such as teaching and learning

kao što su podučavanje i učenje

or engaging together in civic life.

ili zajedničko sudjelovanje u građanskom životu.

In those domains, bringing market mechanisms

U tim područjima,

uvođenje tržišnih mehanizama i novčanih poticaja

and cash incentives may undermine

moglo bi potkopati ili istisnuti nematerijalne vrijednosti i stavove

or crowd out nonmarket values and attitudes

worth caring about.

koje vrijedi njegovati.

Once we see

Jednom kada uvidimo

that markets and commerce,

da tržište i trgovina,

when extended beyond the material domain,

kada se prošire izvan materijalne domene,

can change the character of the goods themselves,

mogu mijenjati karakter samih roba,

can change the meaning of the social practices,

mogu mijenjati značenje društvenih praksi,

as in the example of teaching and learning,

kao u primjeru o podučavanju i učenju,

we have to ask where markets belong

moramo upitati gdje tržišta pripadaju,

and where they don't,

a gdje ne pripadaju,

where they may actually undermine

gdje zapravo mogu potkopati

values and attitudes worth caring about.

vrijednosti i stavove koje vrijedi njegovati.

But to have this debate,

No za takvu raspravu

we have to do something we're not very good at,

trebali bismo učiniti nešto u čemu nismo jako dobri,

and that is to reason together in public

a to je da prosuđujemo zajedno u javnosti

about the value and the meaning

o vrijednostima i značenju

of the social practices we prize,

društvenih praksi koje cijenimo,

from our bodies to family life

od naših tijela do obiteljskog života

to personal relations to health

do osobnih odnosa do zdravlja

to teaching and learning to civic life.

do podučavanja i učenja do građanskog života.

Now these are controversial questions,

To su kontraverzna pitanja,

and so we tend to shrink from them.

pa ih nastojimo izbjegavati.

In fact, during the past three decades,

U stvari, tijekom zadnja tri desetljeća

when market reasoning and market thinking

kada je tržišno zaključivanje i tržišno razmišljanje

have gathered force and gained prestige,

dobilo zamah i steklo ugled,

our public discourse during this time

naš javni diskurs je za to vrijeme

has become hollowed out,

postao isprazan,

empty of larger moral meaning.

lišen dubljeg moralnog značenja.

For fear of disagreement, we shrink from these questions.

Zbog straha od nesuglasica, mi izbjegavamo takva pitanja.

But once we see that markets

No jednom kada uvidimo da tržišta

change the character of goods,

mijenjaju karakter roba,

we have to debate among ourselves

moramo među sobom raspraviti

these bigger questions

ta šira pitanja

about how to value goods.

o tome kako vrednovati robu.

One of the most corrosive effects

Jedan od najkorozivnijih učinaka

of putting a price on everything

dodjeljivanja cijene svemu

is on commonality,

je na zajedništvo,

the sense that we are all in it together.

osjećaj da smo u tome svi zajedno.

Against the background of rising inequality,

U prilikama rastuće nejednakosti

marketizing every aspect of life

marketizacija svakog aspekta života

leads to a condition where those who are affluent

vodi situaciji u kojoj oni bogati

and those who are of modest means

i oni s skromnijim sredstvima

increasingly live separate lives.

sve više žive odvojene živote.

We live and work and shop and play

Mi živimo i radimo i kupujemo i igramo se

in different places.

na različitim mjestima.

Our children go to different schools.

Naša djeca idu u različite škole.

This isn't good for democracy,

To nije dobro za demokraciju

nor is it a satisfying way to live,

niti je to zadovoljavajući način života

even for those of us who can afford

čak i za one od nas koji si mogu priuštiti

to buy our way to the head of the line.

da kupe prvo mjesto u redu.

Here's why.

Evo zašto.

Democracy does not require perfect equality,

Demokracija ne zahtijeva savršenu jednakost,

but what it does require

ali ono što zahtijeva

is that citizens share in a common life.

je da građani dijele zajednički život.

What matters is that people

Ono što je važno

of different social backgrounds

je da ljudi iz različitih društvenih slojeva

and different walks of life

i različitih profesija

encounter one another,

susreću jedni druge,

bump up against one another

nailaze jedno na drugo

in the ordinary course of life,

tijekom svakodnevnog života

because this is what teaches us

jer nas to uči

to negotiate and to abide our differences.

da prevladamo i toleriramo naše razlike.

And this is how we come to care for the common good.

I tako ćemo početi skrbiti za zajedničko dobro.

And so, in the end, the question of markets

I, na kraju, pitanje tržišta

is not mainly an economic question.

uglavnom nije ekonomsko pitanje.

It's really a question of how we want to live together.

To je ustvari pitanje kako želimo živjeti zajedno.

Do we want a society where everything is up for sale,

Želimo li društvo u kojem je sve na prodaju

or are there certain moral and civic goods

ili postoje određene moralne i građanske robe

that markets do not honor

koje tržište ne poštuje

and money cannot buy?

i novac ne može kupiti?

Thank you very much.

Puno vam hvala.

(Applause)

(Pljesak)