Dare to disagree | Margaret Heffernan

580,342 views ใƒป 2012-08-06

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ืื ื ืœื—ืฅ ืคืขืžื™ื™ื ืขืœ ื”ื›ืชื•ื‘ื™ื•ืช ื‘ืื ื’ืœื™ืช ืœืžื˜ื” ื›ื“ื™ ืœื”ืคืขื™ืœ ืืช ื”ืกืจื˜ื•ืŸ.

00:00
Translator: Thu-Huong Ha Reviewer: Morton Bast
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ืžืชืจื’ื: Yubal Masalker ืžื‘ืงืจ: Ido Dekkers
00:15
In Oxford in the 1950s,
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ื‘ืื•ืงืกืคื•ืจื“ ืฉืœ ืฉื ื•ืช ื”ื—ืžื™ืฉื™ื ื‘ืžืื” ื”-20,
00:17
there was a fantastic doctor, who was very unusual,
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ื”ื™ืชื” ืจื•ืคืื” ื ื”ื“ืจืช ื•ืžืื•ื“ ื™ื•ืฆืืช-ื“ื•ืคืŸ,
00:21
named Alice Stewart.
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ื•ืฉืžื” ืืœื™ืก ืกื˜ื™ื•ืืจื˜.
00:23
And Alice was unusual partly because, of course,
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ืืœื™ืก ื”ื™ืชื” ื™ื•ืฆืืช-ื“ื•ืคืŸ, ื’ื ื‘ื’ืœืœ
00:26
she was a woman, which was pretty rare in the 1950s.
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ืฉื”ื™ืชื” ืื™ืฉื”, ื“ื‘ืจ ื“ื™ ื ื“ื™ืจ ื‘ืื•ืชื” ืชืงื•ืคื”.
00:29
And she was brilliant, she was one of the,
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ื”ื™ื ื”ื™ืชื” ืžื‘ืจื™ืงื”. ื”ื™ื ื”ื™ืชื” ืื—ืช ืžืื•ืชื
00:32
at the time, the youngest Fellow to be elected to the Royal College of Physicians.
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ืืงื“ืžืื™ื ืฆืขื™ืจื™ื ืฉื ื‘ื—ืจื• ืœืืงื“ืžื™ื” ื”ืžืœื›ื•ืชื™ืช ืฉืœ ืจื•ืคืื™ื.
00:36
She was unusual too because she continued to work after she got married,
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ื”ื™ื ื”ื™ืชื” ื™ื•ืฆืืช-ื“ื•ืคืŸ ื’ื ื‘ื’ืœืœ ืฉื”ื™ื ื”ืžืฉื™ื›ื” ืœืขื‘ื•ื“ ืœืื—ืจ ื ื™ืฉื•ืื™ื”,
00:40
after she had kids,
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ืœืื—ืจ ืฉื”ื•ืœื™ื“ื” ื™ืœื“ื™ื,
00:42
and even after she got divorced and was a single parent,
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ื•ืืคื™ืœื• ืœืื—ืจ ืฉื”ืชื’ืจืฉื” ื•ื”ื™ืชื” ืื ื—ื“-ื”ื•ืจื™ืช,
00:45
she continued her medical work.
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ื”ื™ื ื”ืžืฉื™ื›ื” ื‘ืขื‘ื•ื“ืชื” ื”ืจืคื•ืื™ืช.
00:48
And she was unusual because she was really interested in a new science,
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ื•ื”ื™ื ื”ื™ืชื” ื™ื•ืฆืืช-ื“ื•ืคืŸ ื›ื™ ื”ืชืขื ื™ื™ื ื” ื‘ืืžืช ื•ื‘ืชืžื™ื ื‘ืžื“ืข ื”ื—ื“ืฉ,
00:52
the emerging field of epidemiology,
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ื‘ืชื—ื•ื ื”ืฆื•ืžื— ืฉืœ ื—ืงืจ ืžื’ื™ืคื•ืช,
00:54
the study of patterns in disease.
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ื—ืงืจ ืฉืœ ืชื‘ื ื™ื•ืช ื‘ืžื—ืœื•ืช.
00:58
But like every scientist, she appreciated
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ืื‘ืœ ื›ืžื• ื›ืœ ืžื“ืขืŸ, ื”ื™ื ื—ื–ืชื”
01:00
that to make her mark, what she needed to do
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ืฉื›ื“ื™ ืœื”ืฉืื™ืจ ื—ื•ืชื ืžืฉืœื”,
01:02
was find a hard problem and solve it.
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ื™ื”ื™ื” ืขืœื™ื” ืœืืชืจ ื‘ืขื™ื” ืงืฉื” ื•ืœืคืชื•ืจ ืื•ืชื”.
01:07
The hard problem that Alice chose
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ื”ื‘ืขื™ื” ื”ืงืฉื” ืฉืืœื™ืก ื‘ื—ืจื” ื”ื™ืชื”
01:09
was the rising incidence of childhood cancers.
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ื”ืžืกืคืจ ื”ืขื•ืœื” ืฉืœ ืžืงืจื™ ืกืจื˜ืŸ ืืฆืœ ื™ืœื“ื™ื.
01:13
Most disease is correlated with poverty,
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ืจื•ื‘ ื”ืžื—ืœื•ืช ืงืฉื•ืจื•ืช ื‘ืขื•ื ื™,
01:15
but in the case of childhood cancers,
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ืื‘ืœ ื‘ืžืงืจื™ื ืฉืœ ืกืจื˜ืŸ ืืฆืœ ื™ืœื“ื™ื,
01:17
the children who were dying seemed mostly to come
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ื ืจืื” ื”ื™ื” ืฉื”ื™ืœื“ื™ื ืฉืžืชื•
01:20
from affluent families.
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ื‘ืื• ื‘ืจื•ื‘ื ืžืžืฉืคื—ื•ืช ืžื‘ื•ืกืกื•ืช.
01:22
So, what, she wanted to know,
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ืœื›ืŸ, ื”ื™ื ื‘ื™ืงืฉื” ืœื“ืขืช
01:24
could explain this anomaly?
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ืžื” ื™ื›ื•ืœ ืœื”ืกื‘ื™ืจ ื—ืจื™ื’ื” ื–ื•.
01:27
Now, Alice had trouble getting funding for her research.
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ืื‘ืœ ืœืืœื™ืก ื”ื™ืชื” ื‘ืขื™ื” ืœื”ืฉื™ื’ ืžื™ืžื•ืŸ ืœืžื—ืงืจ ืฉืœื”.
01:30
In the end, she got just 1,000 pounds
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ืœื‘ืกื•ืฃ, ื”ื™ื ืงื™ื‘ืœื” ืจืง 1,000 ืคืื•ื ื“
01:32
from the Lady Tata Memorial prize.
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ืžื”ืคืจืก ืขืœ ืฉื ืœื™ื™ื“ื™ ื˜ืื˜ื.
01:34
And that meant she knew she only had one shot
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ืคื™ืจื•ืฉ ื”ื“ื‘ืจ ื”ื™ื” ืฉื”ื™ื ื”ื‘ื™ื ื” ืฉื™ืฉ ืœื”
01:37
at collecting her data.
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ืจืง ื ื™ืกื™ื•ืŸ ืื—ื“ ืœืื™ืกื•ืฃ ื ืชื•ื ื™ื.
01:39
Now, she had no idea what to look for.
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ืœื ื”ื™ื” ืœื” ืžื•ืฉื’ ืžื” ืœื—ืคืฉ.
01:41
This really was a needle in a haystack sort of search,
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ื–ื” ื”ื™ื” ื›ืžื• ื—ื™ืคื•ืฉ ืžื—ื˜ ื‘ืขืจื™ืžืช ืฉื—ืช,
01:44
so she asked everything she could think of.
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ืœื›ืŸ ื”ื™ื ืฉืืœื” ื›ืœ ื“ื‘ืจ ืฉื™ื›ืœื” ืœื”ืขืœื•ืช ืขืœ ื“ืขืชื”.
01:47
Had the children eaten boiled sweets?
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ื”ืื ื”ื™ืœื“ื™ื ืื›ืœื• ืžืžืชืงื™ื ืžืกื•ื›ืจ ืžื•ืจืชื—?
01:49
Had they consumed colored drinks?
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ื”ืื ื”ื ืฆืจื›ื• ืžืฉืงืื•ืช ืขื ืชื•ืกืคื•ืช ืฆื‘ืข?
01:51
Did they eat fish and chips?
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ื”ืื ื”ื ืื›ืœื• ื“ื’ื™ื ื•ืฆ'ื™ืคืก?
01:52
Did they have indoor or outdoor plumbing?
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ื”ืื ื”ื ื’ืจื• ื‘ื‘ืชื™ื ื‘ืขืœื™ ืฆื ืจืช ื—ื™ืฆื•ื ื™ืช ืื• ืคื ื™ืžื™ืช?
01:54
What time of life had they started school?
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ื‘ืื™ื–ื” ืฉืœื‘ ื‘ื—ื™ื™ื”ื ื”ื ื”ื—ืœื• ืœืœืžื•ื“ ื‘ื‘ื™ืช-ืกืคืจ?
01:58
And when her carbon copied questionnaire started to come back,
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ื•ื›ืืฉืจ ื”ืฉืืœื•ื ื™ื ืขื ื ื™ื™ืจ ื”ืงื•ืคื™ ื”ื—ืœื• ืœืฉื•ื‘ ืืœื™ื”,
02:01
one thing and one thing only jumped out
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ืงืคืฅ ืœืขื™ื ื™ื™ื ืืš ื•ืจืง ื“ื‘ืจ ืื—ื“,
02:04
with the statistical clarity of a kind that
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ืขื ื‘ื”ื™ืจื•ืช ืกื˜ื˜ื™ืกื˜ื™ืช ืžื”ืกื•ื’
02:07
most scientists can only dream of.
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ืฉื”ืžื“ืขื ื™ื ื™ื›ื•ืœื™ื ืจืง ืœื—ืœื•ื ืขืœื™ื”.
02:09
By a rate of two to one,
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ื‘ื™ื—ืก ืฉืœ ืฉื ื™ื™ื ืœืื—ื“,
02:11
the children who had died
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ืœื™ืœื“ื™ื ืฉืžืชื•
02:13
had had mothers who had been X-rayed when pregnant.
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ื”ื™ื• ืื™ืžื”ื•ืช ืฉืขื‘ืจื• ืฆื™ืœื•ืžื™ ืจื ื˜ื’ืŸ ื‘ื–ืžืŸ ื”ืจื™ื•ื ืŸ.
02:20
Now that finding flew in the face of conventional wisdom.
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ืžืžืฆื ื–ื” ื”ื™ื•ื•ื” ืกื˜ื™ืจืช-ืœื—ื™ ืœื“ืขื” ื”ืžืงื•ื‘ืœืช.
02:24
Conventional wisdom held
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ืขืœ-ืคื™ ื”ืžืงื•ื‘ืœ,
02:26
that everything was safe up to a point, a threshold.
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ื”ื›ืœ ื”ื™ื” ื‘ื˜ื•ื— ืžืชื—ืช ืœืกืฃ ืžืกื•ื™ื™ื.
02:30
It flew in the face of conventional wisdom,
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ื–ื• ื”ื™ืชื” ืกื˜ื™ืจืช ืœื—ื™ ืœื“ืขื” ื”ืžืงื•ื‘ืœืช,
02:32
which was huge enthusiasm for the cool new technology
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ืฉื”ื‘ื™ืื” ืœื”ืชืœื”ื‘ื•ืช ืจื‘ื” ืžื”ื˜ื›ื ื•ืœื•ื’ื™ื” ื”ื—ื“ืฉื”
02:36
of that age, which was the X-ray machine.
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ืฉืœ ืื•ืชื” ืชืงื•ืคื”, ืฉื”ื™ื ืžื›ื•ื ืช ืงืจื ื™ ื”ืจื ื˜ื’ืŸ.
02:40
And it flew in the face of doctors' idea of themselves,
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ื–ื• ื”ื™ืชื” ื’ื ืกื˜ื™ืจืช ืœื—ื™ ืœื“ื™ืžื•ื™ ื”ืขืฆืžื™ ืฉืœ ื”ืจื•ืคืื™ื ื‘ืชื•ืจ
02:44
which was as people who helped patients,
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ืื ืฉื™ื ืฉืขื•ื–ืจื™ื ืœื—ื•ืœื™ื,
02:48
they didn't harm them.
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ืœื ืื ืฉื™ื ืฉืžื–ื™ืงื™ื ืœื—ื•ืœื™ื.
02:50
Nevertheless, Alice Stewart rushed to publish
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ื‘ื›ืœ ืื•ืคืŸ, ืืœื™ืก ืกื˜ื™ื•ืืจื˜ ืžื™ื”ืจื” ืœืคืจืกื
02:54
her preliminary findings in The Lancet in 1956.
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ืืช ืžืžืฆืื™ื” ื”ืจืืฉื•ื ื™ื™ื ื‘ื›ืชื‘ ื”ืขืช, ื”-ืœื ืกื˜, ื‘-1956.
02:58
People got very excited, there was talk of the Nobel Prize,
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ืื ืฉื™ื ื”ืชืจื’ืฉื•, ื”ื™ื• ื“ื™ื‘ื•ืจื™ื ืขืœ ืคืจืก ื ื•ื‘ืœ,
03:02
and Alice really was in a big hurry
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ื•ืืœื™ืก ื”ื™ืชื” ื‘ืœื—ืฅ ืฉืœ ืœื ืกื•ืช ื•ืœื‘ื“ื•ืง
03:04
to try to study all the cases of childhood cancer she could find
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ืืช ื›ืœ ืžืงืจื™ ื”ืกืจื˜ืŸ ืฉื™ื›ืœื” ืœืžืฆื•ื ืืฆืœ ื™ืœื“ื™ื
03:08
before they disappeared.
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ืœืคื ื™ ืฉื™ื™ืื‘ื“ื•.
03:10
In fact, she need not have hurried.
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ืื‘ืœ ืœืžืขืฉื”, ืœื ื”ื™ื” ืฆื•ืจืš ืœื”ื™ื•ืช ื‘ืœื—ืฅ.
03:14
It was fully 25 years before the British and medical --
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ื›ืœ ื–ื” ื”ื™ื” 25 ืฉื ื” ืœืคื ื™ ืฉืžื•ืกื“ื•ืช ื”ืจืคื•ืื”
03:18
British and American medical establishments
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ื”ื‘ืจื™ื˜ื™ื™ื ื•ื”ืืžืจื™ืงืื™ื™ื ื ื˜ืฉื•
03:21
abandoned the practice of X-raying pregnant women.
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ืืช ื”ืžื ื”ื’ ืฉืœ ื‘ื“ื™ืงื•ืช ืจื˜ื ื’ืŸ ืืฆืœ ื ืฉื™ื ื”ืจื•ืช.
03:27
The data was out there, it was open, it was freely available,
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ื›ืœ ื”ื ืชื•ื ื™ื ื›ื‘ืจ ื”ื™ื• ืงื™ื™ืžื™ื, ืคืชื•ื—ื™ื ื•ื–ืžื™ื ื™ื ืœื›ืœ,
03:33
but nobody wanted to know.
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ืื‘ืœ ืืฃ ืื—ื“ ืœื ืจืฆื” ืœื“ืขืช.
03:37
A child a week was dying,
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ืชื™ื ื•ืง ืžืช ื‘ื›ืœ ืฉื‘ื•ืข,
03:40
but nothing changed.
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ืื‘ืœ ืฉื•ื ื“ื‘ืจ ืœื ื”ืฉืชื ื”.
03:42
Openness alone can't drive change.
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ืคืชื™ื—ื•ืช ืœื‘ื“ื” ืื™ื ื” ืžืกื•ื’ืœืช ืœื”ื‘ื™ื ืœืฉื™ื ื•ื™.
03:49
So for 25 years Alice Stewart had a very big fight on her hands.
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ื›ืš ื‘ืžืฉืš 25 ืฉื ื” ื”ื™ื” ืขืœ ืืœื™ืก ืกื˜ื™ื•ืืจื˜ ืœื”ื™ืœื—ื ื‘ืขืฆืžื”.
03:54
So, how did she know that she was right?
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ืื‘ืœ ื›ื™ืฆื“ ื”ื™ื ื™ื“ืขื” ืฉื”ื™ื ืฆื•ื“ืงืช?
03:57
Well, she had a fantastic model for thinking.
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ื”ื™ื” ืœื” ืžื•ื“ืœ ื ื”ื“ืจ ืœืœื›ืช ืœืคื™ื•.
04:01
She worked with a statistician named George Kneale,
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ื”ื™ื ืขื‘ื“ื” ืขื ืกื˜ื˜ื™ืกื˜ื™ืงืื™ ื‘ืฉื ื’'ื•ืจื’' ื ื™ืœ,
04:03
and George was pretty much everything that Alice wasn't.
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ื•ื”ื•ื ื”ื™ื” ื›ืžืขื˜ ื›ืœ ืžื” ืฉืืœื™ืก ืœื ื”ื™ืชื”.
04:06
So, Alice was very outgoing and sociable,
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ืืœื™ืก ื”ื™ืชื” ืžืื•ื“ ืคืชื•ื—ื” ื•ื—ื‘ืจืชื™ืช,
04:09
and George was a recluse.
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ื’'ื•ืจื’' ื”ื™ื” ืžืกื•ื’ืจ.
04:11
Alice was very warm, very empathetic with her patients.
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ืืœื™ืก ื”ื™ืชื” ืœื‘ื‘ื™ืช ื•ืžืื•ื“ ื—ื‘ื™ื‘ื” ืขื ืžื˜ื•ืคืœื™ื”,
04:15
George frankly preferred numbers to people.
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ื’'ื•ืจื’', ื”ืืžืช, ื”ืขื“ื™ืฃ ืžืกืคืจื™ื ืขืœ-ืคื ื™ ืื ืฉื™ื.
04:19
But he said this fantastic thing about their working relationship.
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ื•ื”ื•ื ืืžืจ ืžืฉื”ื• ืžื•ืคืœื ืขืœ ืงืฉืจื™ ื”ืขื‘ื•ื“ื” ื‘ื™ื ื™ื”ื.
04:23
He said, "My job is to prove Dr. Stewart wrong."
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ื”ื•ื ืืžืจ, "ืชืคืงื™ื“ื™ ื”ื•ื ืœื”ื•ื›ื™ื— ืฉื“"ืจ ืกื˜ื™ื•ืืจื˜ ื˜ื•ืขื”."
04:30
He actively sought disconfirmation.
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ื”ื•ื ื—ื™ืคืฉ ื‘ืื•ืคืŸ ื™ื–ื•ื ืืช ื”ื”ืคืจื›ื”.
04:33
Different ways of looking at her models,
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ื“ืจื›ื™ื ืฉื•ื ื•ืช ืœื”ืกืชื›ืœ ืขืœ ื”ืžื•ื“ืœื™ื ืฉืœื”,
04:35
at her statistics, different ways of crunching the data
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ืขืœ ื”ืกื˜ื˜ื™ืกื˜ื™ืงื•ืช ืฉืœื”, ื“ืจื›ื™ื ืฉื•ื ื•ืช ืœืขื‘ื“ ืืช ื”ืžื™ื“ืข
04:39
in order to disprove her.
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ื›ื“ื™ ืœื”ื•ื›ื™ื— ืฉื”ื™ื ื˜ื•ืขื”.
04:42
He saw his job as creating conflict around her theories.
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ื”ื•ื ืจืื” ืืช ืชืคืงื™ื“ื• ื›ื™ื•ืฆืจ ืกืชื™ืจื•ืช ื‘ืชื™ืื•ืจื™ื•ืช ืฉืœื”.
04:47
Because it was only by not being able to prove
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ื›ื™ ื–ื” ื”ื™ื” ืืš ื•ืจืง ื‘ืืžืฆืขื•ืช ืœื ืœื”ื™ื•ืช
04:51
that she was wrong,
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ืžืกื•ื’ืœ ืœื”ื•ื›ื™ื— ืฉื”ื™ื ื˜ื•ืขื”,
04:53
that George could give Alice the confidence she needed
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ืฉื’'ื•ืจื’' ื™ื›ืœ ืœื”ืขื ื™ืง ืœืืœื™ืก ืืช ื”ื‘ื™ื˜ื—ื•ืŸ ืฉื”ื™ื ื”ื™ืชื” ืฆืจื™ื›ื”
04:56
to know that she was right.
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ื›ื“ื™ ืœื“ืขืช ืฉื”ื™ื ืฆื•ื“ืงืช.
04:59
It's a fantastic model of collaboration --
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ื–ื•ื”ื™ ื“ื•ื’ืžื ืžืฆื•ื™ื™ื ืช ืฉืœ ืฉื™ืชื•ืฃ ืคืขื•ืœื” --
05:04
thinking partners who aren't echo chambers.
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ืขืžื™ืชื™ื ืื™ื ื˜ืœื™ื’ื ื˜ื™ื™ื ืฉืื™ื ื ืžื“ืงืœืžื™ื ืื™ืฉ ืืช ืจืขื”ื•.
05:09
I wonder how many of us have,
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ืื ื™ ืชื•ื”ื” ืœื›ืžื” ืžืื™ืชื ื• ื™ืฉ,
05:11
or dare to have, such collaborators.
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ืื• ืฉื”ื ืžืขื™ื–ื™ื ืฉื™ื”ื™ื• ืœื”ื, ืฉื•ืชืคื™ื ืฉื›ืืœื”.
05:18
Alice and George were very good at conflict.
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ืืœื™ืก ื•ื’'ื•ืจื’' ื”ืฆื˜ื™ื™ื ื• ื‘ืขื™ืžื•ืช.
05:22
They saw it as thinking.
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ื”ื ืจืื• ื‘ื›ืš ืชื”ืœื™ืš ืฉืœ ื—ืฉื™ื‘ื”.
05:25
So what does that kind of constructive conflict require?
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ืื– ืžื” ื ื“ืจืฉ ื‘ืฉื‘ื™ืœ ืขื™ืžื•ืช ืžื•ืขื™ืœ ืฉื›ื–ื”?
05:29
Well, first of all, it requires that we find people
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ืงื•ื“ื ื›ืœ, ื ื“ืจืฉื™ื ืœื›ืš ืื ืฉื™ื
05:33
who are very different from ourselves.
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ืฉื”ื ืฉื•ื ื™ื ืžืื•ื“ ืžืขืฆืžื ื•.
05:35
That means we have to resist the neurobiological drive,
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ื–ื” ืื•ืžืจ ืฉืขืœื™ื ื• ืœืขืžื•ื“ ื‘ืคื ื™ ืื•ืชื• ื“ื—ืฃ ื ื•ื™ืจื•-ื‘ื™ื•ืœื•ื’ื™
05:40
which means that we really prefer people mostly like ourselves,
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ื”ืื•ืžืจ ืœื ื• ืœื”ืขื“ื™ืฃ ืื ืฉื™ื ื”ื“ื•ืžื™ื ืœื ื•,
05:44
and it means we have to seek out people
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ื“ื‘ืจ ื”ืื•ืžืจ ืฉืขืœื™ื ื• ืœื—ืคืฉ ืื ืฉื™ื
05:46
with different backgrounds, different disciplines,
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ืžืจืงืขื™ื ืฉื•ื ื™ื, ืžืชื—ื•ืžื™ื ืฉื•ื ื™ื,
05:49
different ways of thinking and different experience,
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ื‘ืขืœื™ ื“ืจื›ื™ ื—ืฉื™ื‘ื” ื•ื ื™ืกื™ื•ืŸ ืฉื•ื ื™ื,
05:53
and find ways to engage with them.
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ื•ืœืžืฆื•ื ื“ืจื›ื™ื ืœื”ืชื—ื‘ืจ ืื™ืชื.
05:57
That requires a lot of patience and a lot of energy.
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ื–ื” ื“ื•ืจืฉ ื”ืžื•ืŸ ืกื‘ืœื ื•ืช ื•ื”ืžื•ืŸ ืื ืจื’ื™ื”.
06:01
And the more I've thought about this,
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ื•ื›ื›ืœ ืฉื—ืฉื‘ืชื™ ืขืœ ื–ื” ื™ื•ืชืจ,
06:03
the more I think, really, that that's a kind of love.
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ืื ื™ ื—ื•ืฉื‘ืช ื™ื•ืชืจ,ื‘ืืžืช, ืฉื–ื• ืžื™ืŸ ืื”ื‘ื” ื›ื–ื•.
06:08
Because you simply won't commit that kind of energy
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ื›ื™ ืืฃ ืื—ื“ ืœื ื™ืฉืงื™ืข ืื ืจื’ื™ื” ื•ื–ืžืŸ ื›ืืœื”
06:11
and time if you don't really care.
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ืืœื ืื ื‘ืืžืช ืื›ืคืช ืœื•.
06:16
And it also means that we have to be prepared to change our minds.
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ื•ื–ื” ื’ื ืื•ืžืจ ืฉืขืœื™ื ื• ืœื”ื™ื•ืช ืžื•ื›ื ื™ื ืœืฉื ื•ืช ืืช ื“ืขืชื ื•.
06:21
Alice's daughter told me
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ื‘ืชื” ืฉืœ ืืœื™ืก ืกื™ืคืจื” ืœื™
06:23
that every time Alice went head-to-head with a fellow scientist,
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ืฉื‘ื›ืœ ืคืขื ืฉืืœื™ืก ื”ืœื›ื” ืจืืฉ-ื‘ืจืืฉ ืขื ืžื“ืขืŸ ืขืžื™ืช,
06:26
they made her think and think and think again.
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ื”ื ื’ืจืžื• ืœื” ืœื—ืฉื•ื‘ ื•ืฉื•ื‘ ืœื—ืฉื•ื‘.
06:30
"My mother," she said, "My mother didn't enjoy a fight,
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"ืื™ืžื™", ื”ื™ื ืืžืจื”, "ืื™ืžื™ ืœื ื ื”ื ืชื” ืžื”ืžืื‘ืงื™ื,
06:34
but she was really good at them."
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ืื‘ืœ ื”ื™ื ื”ืฆื˜ื™ื™ื ื” ื‘ื”ื."
06:39
So it's one thing to do that in a one-to-one relationship.
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ื–ื” ื“ื‘ืจ ืื—ื“ ืœืขืฉื•ืช ื–ืืช ื‘ื™ื—ืกื™ื ืฉืœ ืื—ื“-ืœืื—ื“.
06:44
But it strikes me that the biggest problems we face,
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ืื‘ืœ ืžื“ื”ื™ื ืื•ืชื™ ืฉื”ื‘ืขื™ื” ื”ื›ื™ ื’ื“ื•ืœื” ืฉืื ื• ืžืชืžื•ื“ื“ื™ื ืื™ืชื”,
06:47
many of the biggest disasters that we've experienced,
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ื”ื™ื ืฉืจื‘ื™ื ืžื”ืืกื•ื ื•ืช ืฉื—ื•ื•ื™ื ื•,
06:50
mostly haven't come from individuals,
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ืœื ื‘ืื• ืžืื ืฉื™ื ื™ื—ื™ื“ื™ื,
06:52
they've come from organizations,
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ื”ื ื‘ืื• ืžืืจื’ื•ื ื™ื,
06:54
some of them bigger than countries,
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ื—ืœืงื ื’ื“ื•ืœื™ื ื™ื•ืชืจ ืžืžื“ื™ื ื•ืช,
06:56
many of them capable of affecting hundreds,
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ืจื‘ื™ื ืžื”ื ืžืกื•ื’ืœื™ื ืœื”ืฉืคื™ืข
06:58
thousands, even millions of lives.
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ืขืœ ื—ื™ื™ ืžืื•ืช, ืืœืคื™ื ืื• ืืคื™ืœื• ืžื™ืœื™ื•ื ื™ื.
07:02
So how do organizations think?
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ืื– ื›ื™ืฆื“ ืืจื’ื•ื ื™ื ื—ื•ืฉื‘ื™ื?
07:06
Well, for the most part, they don't.
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ื•ื‘ื›ืŸ, ืจื•ื‘ ื”ื–ืžืŸ, ื”ื ืœื.
07:10
And that isn't because they don't want to,
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ื•ื–ื” ืœื ื‘ื’ืœืœ ืฉื”ื ืื™ื ื ืจื•ืฆื™ื ื‘ื–ื”,
07:13
it's really because they can't.
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ืืœื ื‘ื’ืœืœ ืฉื”ื ืœื ืžืกื•ื’ืœื™ื.
07:16
And they can't because the people inside of them
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ื”ื ืœื ืžืกื•ื’ืœื™ื ื›ื™ ื”ืื ืฉื™ื ื‘ืชื•ื›ื
07:19
are too afraid of conflict.
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ื—ื•ืฉืฉื™ื ื™ื•ืชืจ ืžื“ื™ ืžืขื™ืžื•ืชื™ื.
07:23
In surveys of European and American executives,
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ื‘ืกืงืจ ืฉื ืขืจืš ื‘ืงืจื‘ ืžื ื”ืœื™ื ื‘ืืจื”"ื‘ ื•ืื™ืจื•ืคื”,
07:26
fully 85 percent of them acknowledged
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85 ืื—ื•ื– ืžื”ื ื”ื•ื“ื•
07:29
that they had issues or concerns at work
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ืฉื™ืฉ ืœื”ื ื”ืขืจื•ืช ืื• ื“ืื’ื•ืช ื‘ืขื‘ื•ื“ื”
07:33
that they were afraid to raise.
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ืฉื”ื ื—ื•ืฉืฉื™ื ืœื”ืขืœื•ืช.
07:36
Afraid of the conflict that that would provoke,
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ื—ื•ืฉืฉื™ื ืžื”ืขื™ืžื•ืช ืฉื”ื ืขืœื•ืœื™ื ืœื’ืจื•ื,
07:39
afraid to get embroiled in arguments
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ื—ื•ืฉืฉื™ื ืžืœื”ื™ื•ืช ืžืขื•ืจื‘ื™ื ื‘ื•ื™ื›ื•ื—ื™ื
07:42
that they did not know how to manage,
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ืฉืื™ื ื ื™ื•ื“ืขื™ื ื›ื™ืฆื“ ืœื ื”ืœ,
07:44
and felt that they were bound to lose.
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ื•ืฉื”ื ื—ืฉื• ืฉื”ื ื ื•ืขื“ื• ืœื”ืคืกื™ื“ ื‘ื”ื.
07:48
Eighty-five percent is a really big number.
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85 ืื—ื•ื– ื–ื” ืžืกืคืจ ื‘ืืžืช ื’ื“ื•ืœ.
07:55
It means that organizations mostly can't do
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ื–ื” ืื•ืžืจ ืฉืื™ืจื’ื•ื ื™ื ื‘ืจื•ื‘ื ืื™ื ื ืžืกื•ื’ืœื™ื ืœืขืฉื•ืช
07:57
what George and Alice so triumphantly did.
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ืืช ืžื” ืฉื’'ื•ืจื’' ื•ืืœื™ืก ืขืฉื• ื‘ืื•ืคืŸ ื›ื” ืžื•ืฆืœื—.
08:00
They can't think together.
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ื”ื ืœื ืžืกื•ื’ืœื™ื ืœื—ืฉื•ื‘ ื‘ืฆื•ื•ืชื.
08:04
And it means that people like many of us,
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ื–ื” ืื•ืžืจ ืฉืื ืฉื™ื ื›ืžื• ืจื‘ื™ื ืžืื™ืชื ื•,
08:06
who have run organizations,
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ืืฉืจ ื ื™ื”ืœื• ืื™ืจื’ื•ื ื™ื,
08:09
and gone out of our way to try to find the very best people we can,
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ื•ื™ืฆืื• ืžื’ื™ื“ืจื ื›ื“ื™ ืœื ืกื•ืช ื•ืœืžืฆื•ื ืืช ื”ืื ืฉื™ื ื”ื›ื™ ื˜ื•ื‘ื™ื,
08:12
mostly fail to get the best out of them.
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ื ื›ืฉืœื™ื ืœืจื•ื‘ ื‘ื”ืคืงืช ื”ืžื™ืจื‘ ืžื”ื.
08:18
So how do we develop the skills that we need?
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ืื– ื›ื™ืฆื“ ืื ื• ืžืคืชื—ื™ื ืืช ื”ื›ื™ืฉื•ืจื™ื ืฉืื ื• ืฆืจื™ื›ื™ื?
08:22
Because it does take skill and practice, too.
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ื›ื™ ื–ื” ื“ื•ืจืฉ ื›ื™ืฉื•ืจื™ื ื•ื’ื ืชื™ืจื’ื•ืœ.
08:26
If we aren't going to be afraid of conflict,
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ืื ืœื ื ื—ืฉื•ืฉ ื™ื•ืชืจ ืžืขื™ืžื•ืชื™ื,
08:29
we have to see it as thinking,
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ืขืœื™ื ื• ืœืจืื•ืชื ื‘ืชื•ืจ ืชื”ืœื™ืš ื—ืฉื™ื‘ื”,
08:31
and then we have to get really good at it.
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ื•ืขืœื™ื ื• ืœื”ืฆื˜ื™ื™ืŸ ื‘ื”ื.
08:36
So, recently, I worked with an executive named Joe,
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ืœืื—ืจื•ื ื”, ืขื‘ื“ืชื™ ืขื ืžื ื”ืœ ื‘ืฉื ื’'ื•.
08:40
and Joe worked for a medical device company.
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ื”ื•ื ืขื‘ื“ ื‘ื—ื‘ืจื” ืœืžื™ื›ืฉื•ืจ ืจืคื•ืื™.
08:43
And Joe was very worried about the device that he was working on.
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ื’'ื• ื”ื™ื” ืžืื•ื“ ืžื•ื“ืื’ ืœื’ื‘ื™ ื”ืžื›ืฉื™ืจ ืฉื”ื•ื ืขื‘ื“ ืขืœื™ื•.
08:46
He thought that it was too complicated
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ื”ื•ื ืกื‘ืจ ืฉื”ื•ื ืžืกื•ื‘ืš ืžื“ื™
08:49
and he thought that its complexity
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ื•ืฉื”ืžื•ืจื›ื‘ื•ืช ืฉืœื•
08:51
created margins of error that could really hurt people.
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ื™ืฆืจื” ืžืจื•ื•ื— ืฉื’ื™ืื” ืฉื™ื›ื•ืœ ืœืคื’ื•ืข ื‘ืื ืฉื™ื.
08:56
He was afraid of doing damage to the patients he was trying to help.
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ื”ื•ื ื—ืฉืฉ ืžื’ืจื™ืžืช ื ื–ืง ืœืžื˜ื•ืคืœื™ื ืฉื”ื•ื ื ื™ืกื” ืœืขื–ื•ืจ ืœื”ื.
09:00
But when he looked around his organization,
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ืื‘ืœ ื›ืืฉืจ ื”ื‘ื™ื˜ ื™ืžื™ื ื” ื•ืฉืžืืœื” ื‘ื—ื‘ืจื” ืฉืœื•,
09:02
nobody else seemed to be at all worried.
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ื”ื•ื ืœื ืจืื” ืฉืžื™ืฉื”ื• ืื—ืจ ืžื•ื“ืื’.
09:06
So, he didn't really want to say anything.
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ืœื›ืŸ ืœื ืžืžืฉ ื‘ื ืœื• ืœื•ืžืจ ืžืฉื”ื•.
09:09
After all, maybe they knew something he didn't.
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ืื—ืจื™ ื”ื›ืœ, ืื•ืœื™ ื”ื ื™ื“ืขื• ืžืฉื”ื• ืฉื”ื•ื ืœื.
09:11
Maybe he'd look stupid.
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ืื•ืœื™ ื”ื•ื ื™ื™ืจืื” ื›ื˜ื™ืคืฉ.
09:14
But he kept worrying about it,
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ืื‘ืœ ื”ื•ื ื”ืžืฉื™ืš ืœื“ืื•ื’,
09:16
and he worried about it so much that he got to the point
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ืขื“ ื›ื“ื™ ื›ืš ืฉื”ื’ื™ืข ืœืžืฆื‘
09:19
where he thought the only thing he could do
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ื‘ื• ื”ื•ื ื—ืฉื‘ ืฉื”ื“ื‘ืจ ื”ื™ื—ื™ื“
09:21
was leave a job he loved.
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ืฉื™ื•ื›ืœ ืœืขืฉื•ืช ื–ื” ืœืขื–ื•ื‘ ืืช ื”ืขื‘ื•ื“ื” ืฉืื”ื‘.
09:25
In the end, Joe and I found a way
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ืœื‘ืกื•ืฃ, ื’'ื• ื•ืื ื™ ืžืฆืื ื• ื“ืจืš ื‘ื” ื”ื•ื ื™ื•ื›ืœ
09:29
for him to raise his concerns.
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ืœื”ืขืœื•ืช ืืช ื“ืื’ื•ืชื™ื•.
09:31
And what happened then is what almost always
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ื•ืžื” ืฉืงืจื” ื–ื” ืžื” ืฉืงื•ืจื” ื‘ื“ืจืš-ื›ืœืœ
09:34
happens in this situation.
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ื‘ืžืฆื‘ื™ื ื›ืืœื”.
09:36
It turned out everybody had exactly the same
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ื”ืชื‘ืจืจ ืฉืœื›ื•ืœื ื”ื™ื• ื‘ื“ื™ื•ืง ืืช ืื•ืชืŸ
09:39
questions and doubts.
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ื”ืฉืืœื•ืช ื•ื”ืกืคืงื•ืช.
09:41
So now Joe had allies. They could think together.
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ื›ืขืช ืœื’'ื• ื”ื™ื• ื‘ืขืœื™ ื‘ืจื™ืช. ื”ื ื™ื›ืœื• ืœื—ืฉื•ื‘ ื‘ืฆื•ื•ืชื.
09:45
And yes, there was a lot of conflict and debate
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ืืžื ื ื”ื™ื• ื”ืจื‘ื” ืขื™ืžื•ืชื™ื, ื“ื™ื•ื ื™ื
09:48
and argument, but that allowed everyone around the table
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ื•ื•ื™ื›ื•ื—ื™ื, ืื‘ืœ ื–ื” ืื™ืคืฉืจ ืœื›ื•ืœื
09:52
to be creative, to solve the problem,
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ืœื”ื™ื•ืช ื™ืฆื™ืจืชื™ื™ื, ืœืคืชื•ืจ ืืช ื”ื‘ืขื™ื”
09:56
and to change the device.
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ื•ืœืฉื ื•ืช ืืช ื”ืžื›ืฉื™ืจ.
10:01
Joe was what a lot of people might think of
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ื’'ื• ื”ื™ื” ืžื” ืฉืจื‘ื™ื ื™ื›ื ื•
10:04
as a whistle-blower,
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ื‘ืชื•ืจ ืžืœืฉืŸ,
10:06
except that like almost all whistle-blowers,
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ืืœื ืฉื›ืžืขื˜ ื›ืžื• ื›ืœ ื”ืžืœืฉื ื™ื,
10:09
he wasn't a crank at all,
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ื”ื•ื ืœื ื”ื™ื” ื›ืœืœ ืกื•ืฆื™ื•ืคื˜,
10:11
he was passionately devoted to the organization
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ืืœื ื”ื•ื ื”ื™ื” ืžืกื•ืจ ื‘ื›ืœ ืœื™ื‘ื• ืœื—ื‘ืจื”
10:15
and the higher purposes that that organization served.
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ื•ืœืžื˜ืจื•ืช ื”ื ืขืœื•ืช ืฉื”ื—ื‘ืจื” ืฉื™ืจืชื”.
10:18
But he had been so afraid of conflict,
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ืื‘ืœ ื”ื•ื ื›ืœ-ื›ืš ื—ืฉืฉ ืžืขื™ืžื•ืช,
10:22
until finally he became more afraid of the silence.
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ืขื“ ืฉื‘ืกื•ืฃ ื”ื•ื ื”ื—ืœ ื™ื•ืชืจ ืœืคื—ื“ ืžื”ืฉืชื™ืงื” ืขืฆืžื”.
10:27
And when he dared to speak,
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ื•ื›ืืฉืจ ื”ื•ื ื”ืขื– ืœื“ื‘ืจ,
10:29
he discovered much more inside himself
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ื”ื•ื ื’ื™ืœื” ื‘ืชื•ื›ื• ื”ืจื‘ื” ื™ื•ืชืจ
10:32
and much more give in the system than he had ever imagined.
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ื•ื’ื™ืœื” ืืช ื™ื›ื•ืœืชื• ืœืชืจื•ื ืœืžืขืจื›ืช ื”ืจื‘ื” ื™ื•ืชืจ ืžืžื” ืฉื”ื•ื ืื™-ืคืขื ืฉื™ืขืจ.
10:38
And his colleagues don't think of him as a crank.
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ืขืžื™ืชื™ื• ืื™ื ื ื—ื•ืฉื‘ื™ื ืฉื”ื•ื ืกื•ืฆื™ื•ืคื˜.
10:41
They think of him as a leader.
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ื”ื ืจื•ืื™ื ืื•ืชื• ื‘ืชื•ืจ ืžื ื”ื™ื’.
10:46
So, how do we have these conversations more easily
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ืื– ื›ื™ืฆื“ ื™ื”ื™ื• ืœื ื• ื“ื™ื•ื ื™ื ื›ืืœื” ื™ื•ืชืจ ื‘ืงืœื•ืช
10:50
and more often?
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ื•ื™ื•ืชืจ ื‘ืชื›ื™ืคื•ืช?
10:52
Well, the University of Delft
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ืื•ื ื™ื‘ืจืกื™ื˜ืช ื“ืœืคื˜
10:54
requires that its PhD students
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ื“ื•ืจืฉืช ืžื”ืกื˜ื•ื“ื ื˜ื™ื ืœืชื•ืืจ ืฉืœื™ืฉื™
10:57
have to submit five statements that they're prepared to defend.
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ืœืฉืœื•ื— 5 ื’ื™ืœื•ื™ื™-ื“ืขืช ืฉื”ื ืžื•ื›ื ื™ื ืœื”ื’ืŸ ืขืœื™ื”ื.
11:01
It doesn't really matter what the statements are about,
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ืื™ืŸ ื–ื” ืžืฉื ื” ืขืœ ืžื” ื’ื™ืœื•ื™ื™-ื”ื“ืขืช,
11:04
what matters is that the candidates are willing and able
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ืžื” ืฉื—ืฉื•ื‘ ื–ื” ืฉื”ืกื˜ื•ื“ื ื˜ื™ื ืจื•ืฆื™ื ื•ืžืกื•ื’ืœื™ื
11:08
to stand up to authority.
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ืœืขืžื•ื“ ืžื•ืœ ืกืžื›ื•ืช.
11:10
I think it's a fantastic system,
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ืื ื™ ืกื‘ื•ืจื” ืฉื–ื• ืฉื™ื˜ื” ื ืคืœืื”,
11:13
but I think leaving it to PhD candidates
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ืื‘ืœ ืœื”ืฉืื™ืจ ื–ืืช ืจืง ืœืกื˜ื•ื“ื ื˜ื™ื ืœืชื•ืืจ ืฉืœื™ืฉื™
11:15
is far too few people, and way too late in life.
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ื–ื” ืขื‘ื•ืจ ืžืขื˜ ืžื“ื™ ืื ืฉื™ื ื•ื‘ืฉืœื‘ ืžืื•ื—ืจ ืžื“ื™ ื‘ื—ื™ื™ื.
11:20
I think we need to be teaching these skills
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ืื ื™ ื—ื•ืฉื‘ืช ืฉืขืœื™ื ื• ืœืœืžื“ ื›ื™ืฉื•ืจื™ื ืืœื”
11:23
to kids and adults at every stage of their development,
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ืืช ื”ื™ืœื“ื™ื ื•ื”ืžื‘ื•ื’ืจื™ื ื‘ื›ืœ ืฉืœื‘ ืฉืœ ื”ืชืคืชื—ื•ืชื,
11:27
if we want to have thinking organizations
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ืื ื‘ืจืฆื•ื ื ื• ืฉื™ื”ื™ื• ืื™ืจื’ื•ื ื™ื ืฉื—ื•ืฉื‘ื™ื
11:29
and a thinking society.
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ื•ื—ื‘ืจื” ืื ื•ืฉื™ืช ืฉื—ื•ืฉื‘ืช.
11:33
The fact is that most of the biggest catastrophes that we've witnessed
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ื”ืขื•ื‘ื“ื” ื”ื™ื ืฉืจื•ื‘ ื”ืงื˜ืกื˜ืจื•ืคื•ืช ื”ื’ื“ื•ืœื•ืช ืฉื”ื™ื™ื ื• ืขื“ื™ื ืœื”ืŸ
11:39
rarely come from information that is secret or hidden.
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ืœื ืงื•ืจื•ืช ื‘ื“ืจืš-ื›ืœืœ ื‘ื’ืœืœ ืžื™ื“ืข ืกื•ื“ื™ ืื• ื—ื‘ื•ื™.
11:45
It comes from information that is freely available and out there,
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ื”ืŸ ืงื•ืจื•ืช ืžืชื•ืš ืžื™ื“ืข ืงื™ื™ื, ื”ื–ืžื™ืŸ ืœื›ื•ืœื,
11:49
but that we are willfully blind to,
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ืื‘ืœ ืฉืื ื• ื‘ื™ื•ื“ืขื™ืŸ ืžืชืขืœืžื™ื ืžืžื ื•,
11:52
because we can't handle, don't want to handle,
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ื›ื™ ืื™ื ื ื• ืžืกื•ื’ืœื™ื ืื• ืจื•ืฆื™ื ืœื”ืชืžื•ื“ื“
11:55
the conflict that it provokes.
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ืขื ื”ืขื™ืžื•ืชื™ื ืฉื”ื•ื ืžืขื•ืจืจ.
11:59
But when we dare to break that silence,
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ืื‘ืœ ื›ืืฉืจ ืื ื• ืžืขื™ื–ื™ื ืœืฉื‘ื•ืจ ืืช ื”ืฉืชื™ืงื”,
12:02
or when we dare to see,
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ืื• ื›ืืฉืจ ืื ื• ืžืขื™ื–ื™ื ืœื”ื‘ื™ื˜,
12:05
and we create conflict,
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ื•ื™ื•ืฆืจื™ื ืขื™ืžื•ืช,
12:07
we enable ourselves and the people around us
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ืื ื• ืžืืคืฉืจื™ื ืœืขืฆืžื ื• ื•ืœืื ืฉื™ื ืกื‘ื™ื‘ื ื•
12:10
to do our very best thinking.
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ืœืžืฆื•ืช ืืช ื”ืžื™ื˜ื‘ ืžื™ื›ื•ืœืชื ื• ืœื—ืฉื•ื‘.
12:14
Open information is fantastic,
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ืžื™ื“ืข ื’ืœื•ื™ ื–ื” ื“ื‘ืจ ื ืคืœื,
12:17
open networks are essential.
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ืจืฉืชื•ืช ืคืชื•ื—ื•ืช ืœื›ืœ ื”ืŸ ื—ื™ื•ื ื™ื•ืช.
12:20
But the truth won't set us free
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ืื‘ืœ ื”ืืžืช ืชืžืฉื™ืš ืœืจื“ื•ืฃ ืื•ืชื ื•
12:22
until we develop the skills and the habit and the talent
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ืขื“ ืฉื ืคืชื— ืืช ื”ื›ื™ืฉื•ืจื™ื ื•ืืช ื”ื”ืจื’ืœื™ื ื•ืืช ื”ื›ื™ืฉืจื•ืŸ
12:26
and the moral courage to use it.
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ื•ืืช ื”ืื•ืžืฅ ื”ืžื•ืกืจื™ ืœื”ืฉืชืžืฉ ื‘ื”ื.
12:30
Openness isn't the end.
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ืคืชื™ื—ื•ืช ืื™ื ื” ื”ืกื•ืฃ.
12:34
It's the beginning.
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ื”ื™ื ื”ื”ืชื—ืœื”.
12:37
(Applause)
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(ืžื—ื™ืื•ืช ื›ืคื™ื™ื)
ืขืœ ืืชืจ ื–ื”

ืืชืจ ื–ื” ื™ืฆื™ื’ ื‘ืคื ื™ื›ื ืกืจื˜ื•ื ื™ YouTube ื”ืžื•ืขื™ืœื™ื ืœืœื™ืžื•ื“ ืื ื’ืœื™ืช. ืชื•ื›ืœื• ืœืจืื•ืช ืฉื™ืขื•ืจื™ ืื ื’ืœื™ืช ื”ืžื•ืขื‘ืจื™ื ืขืœ ื™ื“ื™ ืžื•ืจื™ื ืžื”ืฉื•ืจื” ื”ืจืืฉื•ื ื” ืžืจื—ื‘ื™ ื”ืขื•ืœื. ืœื—ืฅ ืคืขืžื™ื™ื ืขืœ ื”ื›ืชื•ื‘ื™ื•ืช ื‘ืื ื’ืœื™ืช ื”ืžื•ืฆื’ื•ืช ื‘ื›ืœ ื“ืฃ ื•ื™ื“ืื• ื›ื“ื™ ืœื”ืคืขื™ืœ ืืช ื”ืกืจื˜ื•ืŸ ืžืฉื. ื”ื›ืชื•ื‘ื™ื•ืช ื’ื•ืœืœื•ืช ื‘ืกื ื›ืจื•ืŸ ืขื ื”ืคืขืœืช ื”ื•ื•ื™ื“ืื•. ืื ื™ืฉ ืœืš ื”ืขืจื•ืช ืื• ื‘ืงืฉื•ืช, ืื ื ืฆื•ืจ ืื™ืชื ื• ืงืฉืจ ื‘ืืžืฆืขื•ืช ื˜ื•ืคืก ื™ืฆื™ืจืช ืงืฉืจ ื–ื”.

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