Itay Talgam: Lead like the great conductors

翻译人员: Sylvia Luk 校对人员: Wang Qian

The magical moment, the magical moment of conducting.

神奇的一刻。对于指挥家来讲最为奇妙的时刻就是

Which is, you go onto a stage. There is an orchestra sitting.

当你走到台上，底下的乐队成员已经就座

They are all, you know, warming up and doing stuff.

他们在热身，为演出做着准备

And I go on the podium.

然后我走上指挥台

You know, this little office of the conductor.

我的“小办公室”

Or rather a cubicle, an open-space cubicle,

或者说，一个开放的小隔间

with a lot of space.

背后空间广阔

And in front of all that noise,

面对下面纷杂的噪声

you do a very small gesture.

我会做一个很小的动作

Something like this, not very pomp, not very sophisticated, this.

像这样，不夸张，很简单，就这样

And suddenly, out of the chaos, order.

突然间，从一边混乱变得井井有条

Noise becomes music.

噪声变成了美妙的音乐

And this is fantastic. And it's so tempting

这感觉非常奇妙，几乎让我

to think that it's all about me.

以为这一切都是我的功劳。

(Laughter)

(笑声)

All those great people here, virtuosos,

所有在场的大师, 音乐家

they make noise, they need me to do that.

只发出杂音, 他们需要我才可演奏

Not really. If it were that,

这不是真的, 如果是这样

I would just save you the talk,

我就不用做这个演讲

and teach you the gesture.

只教您指挥的手势

So you could go out to the world

让您走出世界

and do this thing in whatever company or whatever you want,

在任何公司或环境做这个

and you have perfect harmony. It doesn't work.

您便有完美的和谐. 不, 这是行不通的.

Let's look at the first video.

我们看第一段影片

I hope you'll think it's a good example of harmony.

我希望您認为这是一个和谐的好例子

And then speak a little bit about how it comes about.

然后我会讲一下和谐是如何发生

(Music)

(音乐)

Was that nice?

很棒吗?

So that was a sort of a success.

这算是一种成功

Now, who should we thank for the success?

那我们该归功于谁?

I mean, obviously the orchestra musicians

明显是乐团的乐手.

playing beautifully,

他们演奏很美

the Vienna Philharmonic Orchestra.

维也纳爱乐团

They don't often even look at the conductor.

他们甚至不看指挥

Then you have the clapping audience, yeah,

还有拍和的观众

actually taking part in doing the music.

也实际上参与演出

You know Viennese audiences usually don't interfere with the music.

维也纳爱乐团的观众通常不干扰演奏

This is the closest to an Oriental bellydancing feast

对维也纳人来说

that you will ever get in Vienna.

这种反应, 就像看东方肚皮舞嘉年华

(Laughter)

(笑声)

Unlike, for example Israel, where audiences cough all the time.

不像, 举例说, 以色列的观众, 老在咳嗽

You know, Arthur Rubinstein, the pianist, used to say

钢琴家鲁宾思坦说过

that, "Anywhere in the world, people that have the flu, they go to the doctor.

"世界任何一方, 人一旦有流感, 会去看医生.

In Tel Aviv they come to my concerts."

但在特拉唯夫, 人有流感, 老是来我的演奏会

(Laughter)

(笑声)

So that's a sort of a tradition.

所以, 像一种传统

But Viennese audiences do not do that.

但维也纳观众不会那样做

Here they go out of their regular, just to be part of that,

在影片里, 他们走出常规, 成为音乐的一部分

to become part of the orchestra, and that's great.

也成为乐团的一部分, 那是很棒.

You know, audiences like you, yeah,

乐团观众都像你们

make the event.

让这演讲成功.

But what about the conductor? What can you say

但是指挥呢? 你怎么说?

the conductor was doing, actually?

指挥实际做什么?

Um, he was happy.

嗯, 他很快乐.

And I often show this to senior management.

我常放这段影片给管理高层看

People get annoyed.

他们看得很懊恼

"You come to work. How come you're so happy?"

"你是来做工的, 为什么您这么高兴?"

Something must be wrong there, yeah? But he's spreading happiness.

一定有什么不对劲, 嗯? 但他在散播快乐

And I think the happiness, the important thing is this happiness

最重要的事是这快乐

does not come from

不是来自于

only his own story and his joy of the music.

他自己的故事, 而是他对音乐的喜悦

The joy is about enabling other people's stories

这种喜悦是让其他人的故事

to be heard at the same time.

同时被听到

You have the story of the orchestra as a professional body.

你听到乐团作为专业团体的故事

You have the story of the audience as a community. Yeah.

观众社区的故事. 嗯.

You have the stories of the individuals

乐团中和观众里

in the orchestra and in the audience.

个人的故事

And then you have other stories, unseen.

然后你有其他看不见的故事

People who build this wonderful concert hall.

建造这美不胜收的音乐厅的人

People who made those Stradivarius, Amati, all those beautiful instruments.

造那些美妙的史塔地伐利艾斯, 阿玛提乐器的人

And all those stories are being heard at the same time.

那些所有的故事都同时被听到

This is the true experience of a live concert.

这就是现场演奏的真实经验

That's a reason to go out of home. Yeah?

这不就是踏出家门的理由?

And not all conductors do just that.

但不是所有指挥家都只做这些.

Let's see somebody else, a great conductor.

现在看另一位伟大的指挥家.

Riccardo Muti, please.

里卡多穆提

(Music)

(音乐)

Yeah, that was very short, but you could see

这片段很短. 但是你看到的

it's a completely different figure. Right?

是一个完全不同的形象. 对吗?

He's awesome. He's so commanding. Yeah?

他很有威严, 很严格.

So clear. Maybe a little bit over-clear.

很清晰, 可能有点过头

Can we have a little demonstration? Would you be my orchestra for a second?

我们可以做点示范吗? 你们可暂时当我的乐园吗?

Can you sing, please, the first note of Don Giovanni?

你们可以唱唐喬凡尼的第一个音吗?

You have to sing "Aaaaaah," and I'll stop you.

你要唱"啊..", 然后我叫你停.

Okay? Ready?

可以吗? 凖备好没有?

Audience: ♫ Aaaaaaah ... ♫

观众: 啊

Itay Talgam: Come on, with me. If you do it without me

依泰塔干: 跟着我, 拜托. 如果你们没有我也做到

I feel even more redundant than I already feel.

我更加觉得自己比刚刚更多余

So please, wait for the conductor.

所以拜托, 请等指挥示意

Now look at me. "Aaaaaah," and I stop you. Let's go.

现在看着我. "啊..." 然后我要你停. 好, 开始.

Audience: ♫ ... Aaaaaaaah ... ♫

观众: 啊.....

(Laughter)

(笑声)

Itay Talgam: So we'll have a little chat later.

依泰塔干: 待会我们要聊一聊.

(Laughter)

(笑声)

But ... There is a vacancy for a ...

但是....这边有一个....空缺

But -- (Laughter)

可是- (笑声)

-- you could see that you could stop an orchestra with a finger.

- 你看到你可以用手指示意叫停乐队

Now what does Riccardo Muti do? He does something like this ...

里卡多穆提做甚么? 他大概是这样....

(Laughter)

(笑声)

And then -- sort of -- (Laughter)

然后...类似这样 - (笑声)

So not only the instruction is clear,

不但指示很清楚,

but also the sanction, what will happen if you don't do what I tell you.

还要有他的认可. 你若不依我, 要你好看.

(Laughter)

(笑声)

So, does it work? Yes, it works --

那行得通吗? 是的, 行的-

to a certain point.

某方面是行的.

When Muti is asked, "Why do you conduct like this?"

当穆提被问: "为何你这样指挥?"

He says, "I'm responsible."

他说: "我负有责任."

Responsible in front of him.

对着他负责任.

No he doesn't really mean Him. He means Mozart,

可他指的是"他"而不是"祂". 他是指莫扎特.

which is -- (Laughter) -- like a third seat from the center.

就像- (笑声) - 在正中第三个位

(Laughter)

(笑声)

So he says, "If I'm --

所以他说: " 如果我 -

(Applause)

(喝彩)

if I'm responsible for Mozart,

如果我对莫扎特负责,

this is going to be the only story to be told.

这就是唯一的故事.

It's Mozart as I, Riccardo Muti, understand it."

这就是我里卡多穆提所理解的莫扎特."

And you know what happened to Muti?

你知穆提后来遭遇甚么?

Three years ago he got a letter signed by

三年前他收到一封

all 700 employees of La Scala,

斯卡拉歌剧院全体七百员工署名的信.

musical employees, I mean the musicians,

乐团员工, 我指的是乐手.

saying, "You're a great conductor. We don't want to work with you. Please resign."

信件说:" 你是一位伟大的指挥家. 我们不想跟你一工作. 请辞职."

(Laughter)

(笑声)

"Why? Because you don't let us develop.

"为甚么? 因为你不让我们发展.

You're using us as instruments, not as partners.

你把我们当工具使用, 不是伙伴.

And our joy of music, etc., etc. ..."

还有我们对音乐的乐趣, 等等...."

So he had to resign. Isn't that nice?

因此他一定要辞职. 这不是很好吗?

(Laughter)

(笑声)

He's a nice guy. He's a really nice guy.

他是一个好人. 人真的非常好.

Well, can you do it with less control,

哪, 可以少点操控,

or with a different kind of control?

或者用另一种控制?

Let's look at the next conductor, Richard Strauss.

现在看另外一位指挥家李察史特勞斯.

(Music)

(音乐)

I'm afraid you'll get the feeling that I really picked on him because he's old.

我恐怕你会觉得我会因他老而选择他.

It's not true. When he was a young man

其实不然. 当时他还年轻

of about 30, he wrote what he called

大约在三十岁时, 他写下他叫做

"The Ten Commandments for Conductors."

"指挥家的十诫"

The first one was: If you sweat by the end of the concert

第一诫是:"如果音乐会结束前有流汗的话,

it means that you must have done something wrong.

即是说你一定有不当之处.

That's the first one. The fourth one you'll like better.

这是第一条. 第四条你会喜欢多一点.

It says: Never look at the trombones --

它说:"永远不要望喇叭手-

it only encourages them.

否则只会鼓励他们.

(Laughter)

(笑声)

So, the whole idea is really to let

所以, 整个想法是让它

it happen by itself.

自然的发生

Do not interfere.

不要干预.

But how does it happen? Did you see

但它如何自然的发生? 你有没有见到

him turning pages in the score?

他翻乐谱?

Now, either he is senile,

要么他是老态龙钟,

and doesn't remember his own music, because he wrote the music.

不记得自己的音乐, 因为音乐是他写的.

Or he is actually transferring a very strong message to them, saying,

或者, 他在对他们传达一个很强的信息. 说道:

"Come on guys. You have to play by the book.

" 大家记住, 要跟乐谱演奏.

So it's not about my story. It's not about your story.

这不是我的故事, 也不是你的.

It's only the execution of the written music,

只要把写好的音乐奏出,

no interpretation."

不是演绎.

Interpretation is the real story of the performer.

演绎是表演者的真实故事.

So, no, he doesn't want that. That's a different kind of control.

所以, 不, 他不要这种. 那是另一种控制.

Let's see another super-conductor,

现在看另一位超级指挥家.

a German super-conductor. Herbert von Karajan, please.

德国超凡的指挥, 荷孛卡拉扬. 有请.

(Music)

(音乐)

What's different? Did you see the eyes? Closed.

有甚么不同? 你看到他的眼睛吗? 是闭上的.

Did you see the hands?

你看到他的手吗?

Did you see this kind of movement? Let me conduct you. Twice.

你看过这种手势吗? 让我指挥你们. 倆次.

Once like a Muti, and you'll -- (Claps) -- clap, just once.

一次像穆提, 你要 - (拍手) - 拍手, 只拍一次.

And then like Karajan. Let's see what happens. Okay?

然后像卡拉扬. 让我们看会发生甚么. 行吗?

Like Muti. You ready? Because Muti ...

像穆提. 大家准备好没有? 因为穆提......

(Laughter) Okay? Ready? Let's do it.

(笑声) 行吗? 准备好吗? 好, 大家做.

Audience: (Claps)

观众: (拍手)

Itay Talgam: Hmm ... again.

依泰塔干: 嗯......再一次.

Audience: (Claps)

观众: (拍手)

Itay Talgam: Good. Now like a Karajan. Since you're already trained,

依泰塔干: 好. 现在像卡拉扬. 你们已受过训练.

let me concentrate, close my eyes. Come, come.

让我聚精会神, 闭上眼, 来吧, 来吧.

Audience: (Claps) (Laughter)

观众: (拍手) (笑声)

Itay Talgam: Why not together? (Laughter)

依泰塔伽: 为什么不齐? (笑声)

Because you didn't know when to play.

因为你不知道甚么时候开始.

Now I can tell you, even the Berlin Philharmonic

我可以告诉你,甚至柏林爱乐団

doesn't know when to play.

也不知道甚么时候开始.

(Laughter)

(笑声)

But I'll tell you how they do it. No cynicism.

但我会告诉你他们怎样做. 没有嘲讽的意思.

This is a German orchestra, yes?

这是德国的乐团, 对吗?

They look at Karajan. And then they look at each other.

他们看着卡拉扬, 然后互望.

(Laughter)

(笑声)

"Do you understand what this guy wants?"

"你知不知这个人想怎样?"

And after doing that,

之后,

they really look at each other, and the first players of the orchestra

他们认真的望着对方, 然后乐团的首席乐手

lead the whole ensemble in playing together.

带领整个乐队一起演奏.

And when Karajan is asked about it

当卡拉扬被问及关于这点时

he actually says, "Yes, the worst damage

他实际上说:"是的, 我对乐团能做成

I can do to my orchestra

最大的埙害

is to give them a clear instruction.

是给他们一个请晰的指令

Because that would

因为这会妨碍乐队

prevent the ensemble, the listening to each other

聆听对方

that is needed for an orchestra."

这对一个交响乐团是必要的."

Now that's great. What about the eyes?

好, 哪眼睛又怎么样?

Why are the eyes closed?

为什么眼是闭的?

There is a wonderful story about Karajan conducting in London.

有一个关于卡拉扬在伦敦指挥的故事.

And he cues in a flute player like this.

他向一个长笛手这样示意.

The guy has no idea what to do. (Laughter)

那人不明白做甚么. (笑声)

"Maestro, with all due respect, when should I start?"

"大师, 请恕我直言, 我应何时开始?"

What do you think Karajan's reply was? When should I start?

你认为卡拉扬会怎样回答? 我应何时开始?

Oh yeah. He says, "You start when you can't stand it anymore."

噢对. 他说,"到你忍无可忍的时候, 你便开始吧."

(Laughter)

(笑声)

Meaning that you know you have no authority to change anything.

意思是你知道你是无权去改动任何东西的.

It's my music. The real music is only in Karajan's head.

这是我的音乐. 真正的音乐只在卡拉扬的脑袋里.

And you have to guess my mind. So you are under tremendous pressure

然后你要猜我的思路. 哪你便处于巨大压力之下.

because I don't give you instruction,

因为我没有給你指示,

and yet, you have to guess my mind.

但是, 你依然要去猜我的想法.

So it's a different kind of, a very spiritual but yet

所以这是不同类别的, 一种精神上的;

very firm control.

但, 非常牢固的控制.

Can we do it in another way? Of course we can. Let's go back

我们能否用另一种方法去做? 我们当然能做到. 让我们回顾

to the first conductor we've seen:

我们刚看过的第一个指挥:

Carlos Kleiber, his name. Next video, please.

他叫卡露思卡雷贝. 请放下一段影片.

(Music)

(音乐)

(Laughter) Yeah.

(笑声) 呀..

Well, it is different. But isn't that controlling in the same way?

这不一样. 但是不是同样的控制着?

No, it's not, because he is not telling them what to do.

不, 不是. 因他没有告诉他们做甚么.

When he does this, it's not,

当他告诉他们时, 并不是

"Take your Stradivarius and like Jimi Hendrix,

"拿你的司塔地法里宇司(小提琴) 然后像季密亨地里西 一般

smash it on the floor." It's not that.

把琴抽杀在地板上 ." 不是这样.

He says, "This is the gesture of the music.

他说," 这是音乐的姿势

I'm opening a space for you

我为你开放一个空间

to put in another layer

让你投入演绎的

of interpretation."

另一个层次."

That is another story.

那就是另一回事.

But how does it really work together

但他们如何真正的合作,

if it doesn't give them instructions?

如果没有对他们下指令?

It's like being on a rollercoaster. Yeah?

像坐在过山车，对吧?

You're not really given any instructions,

你没有真正收到任何指示.

but the forces of the process itself keep you in place.

但过程的力量会带着你, 让你到位.

That's what he does.

这就是他所做的.

The interesting thing is of course the rollercoaster does not really exist.

有趣的地方, 就是跟本没有过山车.

It's not a physical thing. It's in the players' heads.

当然不是真的过山车, 它是在乐手脑袋中.

And that's what makes them into partners.

而就是那东西令他们成为伙伴.

You have the plan in your head.

你成竹在脑

You know what to do, even though Kleiber is not conducting you.

虽则卡雷贝没有指挥你, 你也知道要做甚么.

But here and there and that. You know what to do.

但这边, 那边和那个, 你知道要做甚么.

And you become a partner building the rollercoaster,

而你用声音, 呀,

yeah, with sound,

变成建造过山车的伙伴.

as you actually take the ride.

而你也实际上在车里.

This is very exciting for those players.

对那些乐手来说是非常刺激的.

They do need to go to a sanatorium for two weeks, later.

之后, 他们肯定要到疗养院住俩星期.

(Laughter)

(笑声)

It is very tiring. Yeah?

它非常令人疲累. 对不?

But it's the best music making, like this.

但是, 像这样是最好的音乐演奏.

But of course it's not only about motivation

但当然, 这不单是因为激励

and giving them a lot of physical energy.

和给他们很多身体能量.

You also have to be very professional.

同时, 你要非常专业.

And look again at this Kleiber.

再看卡雷贝.

Can we have the next video, quickly?

请放映下一个片段, 可以快点吗?

You'll see what happens when there is a mistake.

你会看到出岔子时有甚么发生.

(Music) Again you see the beautiful body language.

(音乐) 你再次看到美妙的身体语言.

(Music)

(音乐)

And now there is a trumpet player who

现在是一个喇叭手,

does something not exactly the way it should be done.

他做了一些完全不该做的.

Go along with the video. Look.

看着片段. 看吧.

See, second time for the same player.

看到吧, 同一个乐手第二次了,

(Laughter) And now the third time for the same player.

(笑声) 现在又是同一个乐手, 第三次了.

(Laughter)

(笑声)

"Wait for me after the concert.

"音乐会后等我.

I have a short notice to give you."

我有简短的通知给你."

You know, when it's needed, the authority is there. It's very important.

当有需要时, 权威要在. 是很重要的.

But authority is not enough to make people your partners.

但权威不足以把他人变成你的伙伴.

Let's see the next video, please. See what happens here.

请看下一段影片. 看有甚么发生.

You might be surprised having seen Kleiber

看到卡雷贝如此过度活跃

as such a hyperactive guy.

你可能会惊讶.

He's conducting Mozart.

他在指挥莫扎特的音乐.

(Music)

(音乐)

The whole orchestra is playing.

整个乐团在演奏.

(Music)

(音乐)

Now something else.

现在还有另一些东西.

(Music)

(音乐)

See? He is there 100 percent,

看到吗? 他在这边百分之百,

but not commanding, not telling what to do.

没有命令, 没有指定要做甚么.

Rather enjoying what the soloist is doing.

只是享受独奏家所做的.

(Music)

(音乐)

Another solo now. See what you can pick up from this.

另一个独奏家. 看一下你看出些甚么.

(Music)

(音乐)

Look at the eyes.

望着他们的 眼睛.

Okay. You see that?

好. 你看到那个吗?

First of all, it's a kind of a compliment we all like to get.

首先, 是一种每个人都想要的讃许.

It's not feedback. It's an "Mmmm ..." Yeah, it comes from here.

不是回应. 是"好..." 呀, 是从这里来的.

So that's a good thing.

所以那是好事.

And the second thing is

然后第二件事

it's about actually being in control,

是它实际上以一种非常特别的方式

but in a very special way.

在控制.

When Kleiber does -- did you see the eyes,

当卡雷贝控制时 - 你有没有看到他的眼睛

going from here? (Singing)

是从这里看过去?

You know what happens? Gravitation is no more.

你知道是甚么回事? 再没有地心吸力.

Kleiber not only creates a process,

卡雷贝不单创造一个过程,

but also creates the conditions in the world

也在世上创造让这个过程发生的

in which this process takes place.

条件.

So again, the oboe player

所以再一次, 单簧管手

is completely autonomous

是完全的自主

and therefore happy and proud of his work,

因此他很快乐, 为自己的工作骄傲,

and creative and all of that.

而且有创意..

And the level in which Kleiber is in control is in a different level.

卡雷贝所控制的层面是在不同的层次.

So control is no longer a zero-sum game.

所以控制不再是零和游戏.

You have this control. You have this control. And all you put together,

你有这种控制力量. 你有这种控制力量. 然后你把所有的力量

in partnership, brings about the best music.

以伙伴集聚, 而产生最好的音乐.

So Kleiber is about process.

所以卡雷贝是关于过程.

Kleiber is about conditions in the world.

卡雷贝是关于世界的条件.

But you need to have process and content to create the meaning.

但你必需有过程和内容来创造意义.

Lenny Bernstein, my own personal maestro.

乐尼北司提汀, 我心爱的大师

Since he was a great teacher,

是在于他是个好老师.

Lenny Bernstein always started from the meaning. Look at this, please.

乐尼北司提汀常以意义出发. 请看这段影片.

(Music)

(音乐)

Do you remember the face of Muti, at the beginning?

你还记的穆提的样子吗? 我们开始时看的.

Well he had a wonderful expression, but only one.

他有一个很棒的表情, 但只有这一个.

(Laughter)

(笑声)

Did you see Lenny's face?

你有没有看到乐尼的脸?

You know why? Because the meaning of the music is pain.

你知道为甚么吗? 因为音乐的意义是痛苦.

And you're playing a painful sound.

而你在演奏痛苦的声音.

And you look at Lenny and he's suffering.

你看看乐尼, 他在受苦.

But not in a way that you want to stop.

但不是一种你想停止的痛苦.

It's suffering, like, enjoying himself in a Jewish way, as they say.

是受苦, 像人说的, 好像他以犹太人的身份去享受

(Laughter)

(笑声)

But you can see the music on his face.

但你可以看到在他脸上的音乐.

You can see the baton left his hand. No more baton.

你可以看到指挥棒已离开他的手. 已没有指挥棒.

Now it's about you, the player,

现在作为乐手的你最重要,

telling the story.

你去说故事.

Now it's a reversed thing. You're telling the story. And you're telling the story.

现在是反过来. 你在说故事. 而你是在说故事.

And even briefly, you become the storyteller

简而言之, 你变成说故事的人.

to which the community, the whole community, listens to.

你向社会说, 整个社会在聆听.

And Bernstein enables that. Isn't that wonderful?

而萡恩思庭让他们做到. 这不是很棒吗?

Now, if you are doing all the things we talked about, together,

现在, 如果你们一起做所有我们讨论过的.

and maybe some others,

或者和一点其它的,

you can get to this wonderful point of doing without doing.

你会到这美妙的点 - 无为而为.

And for the last video, I think this is simply the best title.

现在看最后的录像, 我想这是最好的片段.

My friend Peter says,

我的朋友彼得說

"If you love something, give it away." So, please.

"如你爱某些东西, 把它送出去." 所以, 请!

(Music)

(音樂)

(Applause)

(鼓掌)