Itay Talgam: Lead like the great conductors

譯者: Lucy Chang 審譯者: Ting-Chieh Hsu

The magical moment, the magical moment of conducting.

魔法的瞬間，指揮時的魔法瞬間

Which is, you go onto a stage. There is an orchestra sitting.

就是當你走上台，面對坐著的交響樂團

They are all, you know, warming up and doing stuff.

他們都在，就是，暖身，做些事

And I go on the podium.

我走上講台

You know, this little office of the conductor.

就是那個指揮家的小辦公室

Or rather a cubicle, an open-space cubicle,

或應該說是工作隔間，

with a lot of space.

後面空間很大的、開放式工作隔間，

And in front of all that noise,

在這些雜音面前，

you do a very small gesture.

做一個很小的動作

Something like this, not very pomp, not very sophisticated, this.

像這樣，不誇張、也不做作，像這樣。

And suddenly, out of the chaos, order.

突然間，從混亂中，秩序出現了。

Noise becomes music.

雜音變為音樂

And this is fantastic. And it's so tempting

這感覺真棒！幾乎會讓我

to think that it's all about me.

以為這一切，都是因為我的緣故。

(Laughter)

(笑聲)

All those great people here, virtuosos,

所有在場的大師、演奏家們

they make noise, they need me to do that.

只會發出雜音，他們需要我，才能演奏。

Not really. If it were that,

這不是真的。 要是真的這樣，

I would just save you the talk,

我就可以省了這次演講，

and teach you the gesture.

只要教你們指揮的手勢。

So you could go out to the world

好讓你們出去以後，

and do this thing in whatever company or whatever you want,

在公司或任何環境，

and you have perfect harmony. It doesn't work.

享受完美的和諧。 不，這行不通的。

Let's look at the first video.

讓我們看第一段影片

I hope you'll think it's a good example of harmony.

我希望，你們會認為，這是展現和諧的好例子，

And then speak a little bit about how it comes about.

然後，我會講一下，和諧是怎麼來的

(Music)

(音樂)

Was that nice?

很棒嗎?

So that was a sort of a success.

這真是一種成功。

Now, who should we thank for the success?

那我們該歸功給誰呢?

I mean, obviously the orchestra musicians

我是說，顯然是給樂團裡的音樂家。

playing beautifully,

他們演奏得這麼美，

the Vienna Philharmonic Orchestra.

維也納愛樂管絃樂團

They don't often even look at the conductor.

他們甚至不常看著指揮者。

Then you have the clapping audience, yeah,

還有，那些打拍子的觀眾，

actually taking part in doing the music.

也實際參與了演出。

You know Viennese audiences usually don't interfere with the music.

其實，維也納的觀眾，多半不會干擾音樂進行

This is the closest to an Oriental bellydancing feast

這種表現，對維也納人來說，

that you will ever get in Vienna.

已經是最像在看一場東方肚皮舞的反應了。

(Laughter)

(笑聲)

Unlike, for example Israel, where audiences cough all the time.

不像，比方說，以色列的觀眾，老是咳嗽

You know, Arthur Rubinstein, the pianist, used to say

鋼琴家魯賓斯坦 曾經說過，

that, "Anywhere in the world, people that have the flu, they go to the doctor.

“世界任何地方的人感冒了，會去看醫生，

In Tel Aviv they come to my concerts."

只有在特拉維夫，他們感冒，就來我的演奏會。”

(Laughter)

(笑聲)

So that's a sort of a tradition.

所以，這好像傳統一樣。

But Viennese audiences do not do that.

維也納人不會這樣的。

Here they go out of their regular, just to be part of that,

在剛剛的影片裡，他們一反常態，成為音樂的一部分。

to become part of the orchestra, and that's great.

也變成樂團的一部份。 這個很棒！

You know, audiences like you, yeah,

就像你們一樣，

make the event.

讓這演講成功。

But what about the conductor? What can you say

但是指揮家呢? 你說這指揮家

the conductor was doing, actually?

到底在做什麼?

Um, he was happy.

嗯，他很快樂。

And I often show this to senior management.

我常常給高階主管看這個短片。

People get annoyed.

他們看了很生氣。

"You come to work. How come you're so happy?"

"你們來上班，幹嘛這麼開心?"

Something must be wrong there, yeah? But he's spreading happiness.

一定哪裡出錯了，是不是? 但是，他在散播快樂。

And I think the happiness, the important thing is this happiness

我想這種快樂，我認為重點是，這種快樂

does not come from

不只是因為

only his own story and his joy of the music.

他表達自己的故事，和他對音樂的喜愛

The joy is about enabling other people's stories

這種快樂，是讓別人也能同時

to be heard at the same time.

訴說自己的故事給觀眾聽。

You have the story of the orchestra as a professional body.

你有樂團自成一個專業團體的故事

You have the story of the audience as a community. Yeah.

你有觀眾自成一個社群的故事

You have the stories of the individuals

也有在樂團和觀眾裡，

in the orchestra and in the audience.

每一個人自己的故事。

And then you have other stories, unseen.

還有一些無形的故事：如，

People who build this wonderful concert hall.

那些建造這美好音樂廳的人的故事

People who made those Stradivarius, Amati, all those beautiful instruments.

還有那些製造名琴，如史特拉第瓦里提琴、阿瑪提提琴的人的故事

And all those stories are being heard at the same time.

這些所有的故事同時讓大家聽見

This is the true experience of a live concert.

這就是去聽現場演奏的真實經驗。

That's a reason to go out of home. Yeah?

這就是你出門的原因。 對吧?

And not all conductors do just that.

但不是所有的指揮家都這麼做。

Let's see somebody else, a great conductor.

我們來看另一位偉大的指揮家--

Riccardo Muti, please.

里卡多·慕提。請!

(Music)

(音樂)

Yeah, that was very short, but you could see

影片很短，但是你可以看出

it's a completely different figure. Right?

完全不同的個性，對吧?

He's awesome. He's so commanding. Yeah?

他很棒，他很莊嚴，對吧?

So clear. Maybe a little bit over-clear.

很明確。或許太過明確了。

Can we have a little demonstration? Would you be my orchestra for a second?

我們來個示範，怎麼樣? 你們充當我的樂團一下子好嗎?

Can you sing, please, the first note of Don Giovanni?

你們唱歌劇『唐·喬望尼』的第一個音，好不好?

You have to sing "Aaaaaah," and I'll stop you.

你們唱「啊---」，然後我示意停止

Okay? Ready?

好了嗎? 準備好了嗎?

Audience: ♫ Aaaaaaah ... ♫

觀眾唱: ♫ 啊 ... ♫

Itay Talgam: Come on, with me. If you do it without me

嘿，要跟著我! 如果自己先唱了

I feel even more redundant than I already feel.

我會更覺得自己是多餘的

So please, wait for the conductor.

所以，請等指揮的手勢

Now look at me. "Aaaaaah," and I stop you. Let's go.

看著我， "啊," 然後停止。來!

Audience: ♫ ... Aaaaaaaah ... ♫

觀眾唱: ♫ ... 啊 ... ♫

(Laughter)

(笑聲)

Itay Talgam: So we'll have a little chat later.

義泰·塔更: 我們等一下要談一談

(Laughter)

(笑聲)

But ... There is a vacancy for a ...

但是， ... 這裡有個職缺，是 ...

But -- (Laughter)

但是 -- (笑聲)

-- you could see that you could stop an orchestra with a finger.

-- 你看，我可以用一根手指，讓整個樂團停下來

Now what does Riccardo Muti do? He does something like this ...

但是里卡多·慕提怎麼做呢? 他做的像這樣...

(Laughter)

(笑聲)

And then -- sort of -- (Laughter)

然後 – 好像 -- (笑聲)

So not only the instruction is clear,

不但指令很清楚，

but also the sanction, what will happen if you don't do what I tell you.

連違背指令的後果，也很清楚

(Laughter)

(笑聲)

So, does it work? Yes, it works --

所以，這方式有用嗎? 是的--

to a certain point.

有用到一個程度。

When Muti is asked, "Why do you conduct like this?"

有人問慕提："你為什麼這樣指揮?"

He says, "I'm responsible."

他說: "我要負責"

Responsible in front of him.

"在他面前我要負責"

No he doesn't really mean Him. He means Mozart,

他不是指「祂」，他指的是莫札特

which is -- (Laughter) -- like a third seat from the center.

就是 -- (笑聲) – 好像他就坐在中間第三個位子

(Laughter)

(笑聲)

So he says, "If I'm --

所以他說，"如果我 --

(Applause)

(掌聲)

if I'm responsible for Mozart,

如果我要對莫札特負責，

this is going to be the only story to be told.

這是我，里卡多·慕提，

It's Mozart as I, Riccardo Muti, understand it."

所了解的莫札特，我唯一的詮釋"

And you know what happened to Muti?

你們知道慕提後來怎樣嗎?

Three years ago he got a letter signed by

三年前，他收到一封信

all 700 employees of La Scala,

來自所有La Scala 700位員工的聯名信，

musical employees, I mean the musicians,

音樂專業的員工們，音樂家們

saying, "You're a great conductor. We don't want to work with you. Please resign."

說："你是個偉大的指揮家。我們不要和你一起工作，請辭職。"

(Laughter)

(笑聲)

"Why? Because you don't let us develop.

"為什麼? 因為你不讓我們發展

You're using us as instruments, not as partners.

你把我們當成樂器，而不是伙伴。

And our joy of music, etc., etc. ..."

我們對音樂的喜樂，等等..."

So he had to resign. Isn't that nice?

所以他就只好辭職。這是不是挺好的?

(Laughter)

(笑聲)

He's a nice guy. He's a really nice guy.

他是個好人，他是個非常好的人

Well, can you do it with less control,

但是，可不可以少一些掌控?

or with a different kind of control?

或換一種方式掌控呢?

Let's look at the next conductor, Richard Strauss.

我們看下一位指揮家，李察·史特勞斯

(Music)

(音樂)

I'm afraid you'll get the feeling that I really picked on him because he's old.

你們可能認為我挑他毛病，是因為他很老了?

It's not true. When he was a young man

不是的。 當他還很年輕的時候，

of about 30, he wrote what he called

大概30歲，他寫了

"The Ten Commandments for Conductors."

"指揮家的十誡"

The first one was: If you sweat by the end of the concert

第一條是: 如果在音樂會結束時，你流汗了

it means that you must have done something wrong.

那表示你一定做錯了

That's the first one. The fourth one you'll like better.

那是第一條。 你們會更喜歡第四條。

It says: Never look at the trombones --

第四條: 絕對不要看長號手，

it only encourages them.

這樣只會更鼓勵他們，吹得更響。

(Laughter)

(笑聲)

So, the whole idea is really to let

所以，整個想法就是

it happen by itself.

讓音樂自己出現

Do not interfere.

不要干擾

But how does it happen? Did you see

但是音樂怎麼出現? 你看到--

him turning pages in the score?

他在翻樂譜嗎?

Now, either he is senile,

所以，要不是他老年癡呆，

and doesn't remember his own music, because he wrote the music.

不記得自己的音樂，因為這是他自己寫的樂譜，

Or he is actually transferring a very strong message to them, saying,

就是他在傳達一個很強烈的訊息，說--

"Come on guys. You have to play by the book.

"大家注意，你們必須照著譜演奏。

So it's not about my story. It's not about your story.

所以這不是我的故事，不是你的故事

It's only the execution of the written music,

只是把寫下的音符，執行出來罷了，

no interpretation."

不能有自己的衍譯"

Interpretation is the real story of the performer.

衍譯是表演者的事。

So, no, he doesn't want that. That's a different kind of control.

所以，他不要個人主義。 這是一種不同的掌控方式。

Let's see another super-conductor,

我們再看下一位超級指揮家，

a German super-conductor. Herbert von Karajan, please.

一位德國超級指揮家，卡拉揚，請--

(Music)

(音樂)

What's different? Did you see the eyes? Closed.

有什麼不同? 你注意到他的眼睛嗎? 是閉著的

Did you see the hands?

你看到他的手勢嗎?

Did you see this kind of movement? Let me conduct you. Twice.

你看到這種動作了嗎? 讓我指揮你們兩次，試試看。

Once like a Muti, and you'll -- (Claps) -- clap, just once.

第一次像慕提，你們 -- 拍手，一次就好

And then like Karajan. Let's see what happens. Okay?

然後我像卡拉揚。我們看看會發生什麼事情。好嗎?

Like Muti. You ready? Because Muti ...

像慕提。準備好了嗎? 因為慕提...

(Laughter) Okay? Ready? Let's do it.

(笑聲) 好嗎? 準備好了? 來!

Audience: (Claps)

(觀眾拍手)

Itay Talgam: Hmm ... again.

嗯 ... 再一次

Audience: (Claps)

(觀眾拍手)

Itay Talgam: Good. Now like a Karajan. Since you're already trained,

很好。現在換卡拉揚。因為你們已經被訓練好了

let me concentrate, close my eyes. Come, come.

讓我專心，閉上眼睛，來，來

Audience: (Claps) (Laughter)

(觀眾拍手) (笑聲)

Itay Talgam: Why not together? (Laughter)

怎麼不一致呢? (笑聲)

Because you didn't know when to play.

因為你們不知道什麼時候該開始。

Now I can tell you, even the Berlin Philharmonic

我跟你們說，即使是柏林愛樂

doesn't know when to play.

也不知道該何時開始!

(Laughter)

(笑聲)

But I'll tell you how they do it. No cynicism.

但是我告訴你們，他們怎麼辦。沒有嘲笑的意思。

This is a German orchestra, yes?

這是個德國的管絃樂團，對吧？

They look at Karajan. And then they look at each other.

他們看看卡拉揚，然後他們彼此對看

(Laughter)

(笑聲)

"Do you understand what this guy wants?"

"你知道這傢伙要我們怎樣嗎?"

And after doing that,

在那之後，

they really look at each other, and the first players of the orchestra

他們真的彼此對望，然後樂團裡的首席音樂家

lead the whole ensemble in playing together.

開頭帶領整個合奏，大家一起演奏

And when Karajan is asked about it

當有人問起卡拉揚

he actually says, "Yes, the worst damage

他說："對的，我對我的樂團

I can do to my orchestra

可能做的最大破壞

is to give them a clear instruction.

就是給他們一個清楚的指示。

Because that would

因為這樣的話，

prevent the ensemble, the listening to each other

大家就不可能合奏、彼此傾聽，

that is needed for an orchestra."

但樂團需要合奏、傾聽。"

Now that's great. What about the eyes?

這很好。 那眼睛呢?

Why are the eyes closed?

為什麼閉上眼睛?

There is a wonderful story about Karajan conducting in London.

卡拉揚在倫敦指揮時，有一個很棒的故事。

And he cues in a flute player like this.

他暗示一位長笛手，像這樣

The guy has no idea what to do. (Laughter)

那傢伙不知道該怎麼辦 (笑聲)

"Maestro, with all due respect, when should I start?"

"大師，請問您，我什麼時候該開始?"

What do you think Karajan's reply was? When should I start?

你猜卡拉揚怎麼回答? 我什麼時候開始演奏?

Oh yeah. He says, "You start when you can't stand it anymore."

嗯，他說："你再也忍不住的時候，就開始"

(Laughter)

(笑聲)

Meaning that you know you have no authority to change anything.

意思是：你沒有權力改變任何東西，

It's my music. The real music is only in Karajan's head.

這是我的音樂。真正的音樂只在卡拉揚的腦子裡。

And you have to guess my mind. So you are under tremendous pressure

你要猜測我的心思。 所以你的壓力很大，

because I don't give you instruction,

因為我不會給你指示，

and yet, you have to guess my mind.

但是，你要揣測我的心意。

So it's a different kind of, a very spiritual but yet

所以這是一種不同的指揮方式，非常的靈性，但是--

very firm control.

也全在嚴格掌控中。

Can we do it in another way? Of course we can. Let's go back

我們可以用其他的方式嗎? 當然可以。我們回頭

to the first conductor we've seen:

看我們剛才看過的第一位指揮家--

Carlos Kleiber, his name. Next video, please.

他是卡洛斯·克萊伯。請放下一段影片。

(Music)

(音樂)

(Laughter) Yeah.

(笑聲) 很棒！

Well, it is different. But isn't that controlling in the same way?

這不一樣，但是不是也用同樣的方式掌控呢?

No, it's not, because he is not telling them what to do.

不是的。因為他沒有告訴他們該怎麼做。

When he does this, it's not,

當他這麼做的時候，那不是意味：

"Take your Stradivarius and like Jimi Hendrix,

"把你的百萬名琴，像吉米·亨德里克斯那樣，

smash it on the floor." It's not that.

砸在地上"。他不是那樣的。

He says, "This is the gesture of the music.

他說： "這是表現音樂的手勢

I'm opening a space for you

我為你打開一個空間

to put in another layer

讓你放入另一個層次，

of interpretation."

也就是衍譯。"

That is another story.

不過這是另一回事。

But how does it really work together

但，若這些動作不是指令，

if it doesn't give them instructions?

他們是怎麼合作的呢?

It's like being on a rollercoaster. Yeah?

這就像坐雲霄飛車。知道嗎?

You're not really given any instructions,

你們沒有接受任何指令

but the forces of the process itself keep you in place.

但是那過程中的力量就會領著你走

That's what he does.

這就是他的作法

The interesting thing is of course the rollercoaster does not really exist.

有趣的是，當然，實際上並沒有雲霄飛車在跑

It's not a physical thing. It's in the players' heads.

實體上沒有。卻在大家的腦袋裡。

And that's what makes them into partners.

這就是讓他們成為夥伴的方法。

You have the plan in your head.

在你腦袋裡有個計畫

You know what to do, even though Kleiber is not conducting you.

即使克萊伯沒在指揮，你也知道該做什麼

But here and there and that. You know what to do.

就算他在這樣、那樣，但你知道該做什麼。

And you become a partner building the rollercoaster,

然後，你們就成為一起建造雲霄飛車的夥伴

yeah, with sound,

是的，用聲音建的雲霄飛車，

as you actually take the ride.

就像你真的去坐了一樣。

This is very exciting for those players.

對這些團員來說，這是很棒的。

They do need to go to a sanatorium for two weeks, later.

結束之後，他們會去休養兩週

(Laughter)

(笑聲)

It is very tiring. Yeah?

這很累的，對吧?

But it's the best music making, like this.

但卻創造了最棒的音樂，像這樣。

But of course it's not only about motivation

當然，這不光靠動機，

and giving them a lot of physical energy.

和提供所需的大量體能

You also have to be very professional.

也需要非常的專業。

And look again at this Kleiber.

再看一次，克萊伯

Can we have the next video, quickly?

我們快快看下一個影片，好嗎?

You'll see what happens when there is a mistake.

你會看到出錯時的反應。

(Music) Again you see the beautiful body language.

(音樂) 再次看到美妙的身體語言

(Music)

(音樂)

And now there is a trumpet player who

有個小號手

does something not exactly the way it should be done.

吹錯了

Go along with the video. Look.

看影片，你看

See, second time for the same player.

看到嗎? 第二次，同樣的人犯錯

(Laughter) And now the third time for the same player.

(笑聲) 第三次又犯錯

(Laughter)

(笑聲)

"Wait for me after the concert.

"演奏結束之後，等我一下

I have a short notice to give you."

有點事情要跟你談"

You know, when it's needed, the authority is there. It's very important.

你看，需要的時候，還是有權威的。這很重要。

But authority is not enough to make people your partners.

但僅有權威，不足以讓人成為你的夥伴。

Let's see the next video, please. See what happens here.

讓我再看下一段影片。看看發生什麼事。

You might be surprised having seen Kleiber

你可能很訝異--

as such a hyperactive guy.

相較克萊伯剛才這麼過動

He's conducting Mozart.

他在指揮莫札特的音樂

(Music)

(音樂)

The whole orchestra is playing.

整個樂團都在演奏

(Music)

(音樂)

Now something else.

這邊出現了點變化

(Music)

(音樂)

See? He is there 100 percent,

看到了嗎?他完全融入，

but not commanding, not telling what to do.

而且不指揮，不說該怎麼做

Rather enjoying what the soloist is doing.

只是享受那位獨奏的音樂

(Music)

(音樂)

Another solo now. See what you can pick up from this.

另外一段獨奏。看看，你可以從這裡發現什麼

(Music)

(音樂)

Look at the eyes.

你們看他的眼睛

Okay. You see that?

好，看到了嗎?

First of all, it's a kind of a compliment we all like to get.

首先，那是我們每個人都想得到的讚賞的神情

It's not feedback. It's an "Mmmm ..." Yeah, it comes from here.

不是回饋，是"嗯 ..." 是，從這裡發出來的

So that's a good thing.

所以這是好事

And the second thing is

第二呢?

it's about actually being in control,

就是真正的掌控，

but in a very special way.

但，是以很特殊的方式。

When Kleiber does -- did you see the eyes,

當克萊伯做這個動作 – 你有注意他的眼睛嗎?

going from here? (Singing)

從這裡，這樣?

You know what happens? Gravitation is no more.

你知道發生什麼事了嗎? 地心引力不存在了

Kleiber not only creates a process,

克萊伯不只創造了一個過程

but also creates the conditions in the world

也創造了世界的狀態

in which this process takes place.

在狀態裡，進行這過程

So again, the oboe player

所以，這位雙簧管樂手

is completely autonomous

是完全自主的

and therefore happy and proud of his work,

所以對自己的表現既開心又驕傲

and creative and all of that.

而且有創造性等等。

And the level in which Kleiber is in control is in a different level.

克萊伯所掌控的，是在另一個層次

So control is no longer a zero-sum game.

他讓掌控不再是零合賽局

You have this control. You have this control. And all you put together,

你有這種掌控，你有那種掌控，然後大家合在一起，

in partnership, brings about the best music.

像夥伴一樣，奏出最棒的音樂

So Kleiber is about process.

所以，克萊伯會關注過程

Kleiber is about conditions in the world.

克萊伯會關注整體環境的狀態。

But you need to have process and content to create the meaning.

但你需要過程和內容，來創造意義。

Lenny Bernstein, my own personal maestro.

倫納德·伯恩斯坦，我最景仰的指揮大師

Since he was a great teacher,

他是個偉大的老師

Lenny Bernstein always started from the meaning. Look at this, please.

倫納德·伯恩斯坦總是從意義著手。 看看這段影片。

(Music)

(音樂)

Do you remember the face of Muti, at the beginning?

你們記得慕提的臉嗎?一開始的時候?

Well he had a wonderful expression, but only one.

他的表情很棒，但只有一個表情

(Laughter)

(笑聲)

Did you see Lenny's face?

你們看到倫納德的臉嗎?

You know why? Because the meaning of the music is pain.

知道為什麼嗎? 因為這個音樂在表達痛苦。

And you're playing a painful sound.

正在演奏的是痛苦的聲音。

And you look at Lenny and he's suffering.

你看到倫納德，他正在受苦。

But not in a way that you want to stop.

但，不是你想讓他停下來的那種苦，

It's suffering, like, enjoying himself in a Jewish way, as they say.

是受苦。是所謂「猶太人自得其樂」的苦。

(Laughter)

(笑聲)

But you can see the music on his face.

但是，在他的臉上可以看見音樂

You can see the baton left his hand. No more baton.

你們可以看見他沒有用指揮棒。不需要指揮棒了!

Now it's about you, the player,

現在是你，演奏者--

telling the story.

在說故事

Now it's a reversed thing. You're telling the story. And you're telling the story.

這是反過來的。 你正在說故事，所以就由你來說故事。

And even briefly, you become the storyteller

即使很短暫，你就成了說故事的人

to which the community, the whole community, listens to.

講故事，給所有的群眾聽

And Bernstein enables that. Isn't that wonderful?

伯恩斯坦讓它發生。是不是很棒?

Now, if you are doing all the things we talked about, together,

如果你們一起，實踐了所有我講過的事

and maybe some others,

或許還有一些我沒講到的

you can get to this wonderful point of doing without doing.

你就可以到達「無為而治」的境界了

And for the last video, I think this is simply the best title.

無為而治，就是最後這段影片，最好的標題

My friend Peter says,

我的朋友彼得說：

"If you love something, give it away." So, please.

"把你所愛的送出去"。 所以，請。

(Music)

(音樂)

(Applause)

(掌聲)