Afra Raymond: Three myths about corruption

Translator: Joseph Geni Reviewer: Morton Bast

Prevodilac: Lektor: Mile Živković

Okay, this morning I'm speaking

OK, ovog jutra ću govoriti

on the question of corruption.

o problemu korupcije.

And corruption is defined

A korupcija se definiše

as the abuse of a position of trust

kao zloupotreba poverenja

for the benefit of yourself -- or, in the case of our context,

zbog sopstvene koristi - ili u našem kontekstu,

your friends, your family or your financiers.

vaših prijatelja, porodice ili vaših ulagača.

Okay? Friends, family and financiers.

U redu? Prijatelji, porodica, ulagači.

But we need to understand what we understand about corruption,

Ali moramo razumeti šta mi podrazumevamo pod korupcijom

and we need to understand that

i moramo razumeti

we have been miseducated about it, and we have to admit that.

da smo pogrešno učeni o tome i moramo priznati to.

We have to have the courage to admit that

Moramo imati hrabrosti da priznamo to,

to start changing how we deal with it.

kako bismo počeli da menjamo naš pristup ka tome.

The first thing is that the big myth, number one,

Prva stvar je zapravo veliki mit, pod jedan,

is that in fact it's not really a crime.

da to zapravo nije krivično delo.

When we get together with friends and family

Kada se okupimo sa prijateljima i porodicom

and we discuss crime in our country,

i raspravljamo o kriminalu u našoj zemlji,

crime in Belmont or crime in Diego or crime in Marabella,

kriminalu u Belmontu ili criminal u Dijegu ili kriminalu u Marabeli,

nobody's speaking about corruption.

niko ne govori o korupciji.

That's the honest truth.

To je prava istina.

When the Commissioner of Police comes on TV to talk about crime,

Kada komesar policije na TV-u govori o kriminalu,

he isn't speaking about corruption.

on ne priča o korupciji.

And we know for sure when the Minister of National Security

A zasigurno znamo da kada Ministar nacionalne sigurnosti

is speaking about crime, he's not talking about corruption either.

govori o kriminalu, takođe ne govori o korupciji.

The point I'm making is that it is a crime.

Poenta jeste da je to zapravo krivično delo.

It is an economic crime, because we're involving the looting of taxpayers' money.

U pitanju je privredni kriminal, jer podrazumeva

pljačkanje poreskih obveznika.

Public and private corruption is a reality.

Javna i privatna korupcija su realnost.

As somebody who comes from the private sector,

Kao neko ko dolazi iz privatnog sektora,

I can tell you there's a massive amount of corruption

mogu vam reći da u privatnom sektoru postoji veliki stepen korupcije

in the private sector that has nothing to do with government.

koji nema nikakve veze sa vlašću.

The same bribes and backhanders and things that take place under the table,

Ista podmićivanja, mito i poslovanja ispod stola,

it all takes place in the private sector.

dešavaju se i u privatnom sektoru.

Today, I'm focusing on public sector corruption,

Danas ću se fokusirati na korupciju u javnom sektoru,

which the private sector also participates in.

u kojem učestvuje i privatni sektor.

The second important myth to understand --

Drugi važan mit koji je potrebno razumeti -

because we have to destroy these myths,

jer moramo razbiti ove mitove,

dismantle them and destroy them and ridicule them --

razmontirati, uništiti ih i rugati im se -

the second important myth to understand

drugi važan mit koji je potrebno razumeti

is the one that says

je onaj koji kaže

that in fact corruption is only a small problem --

da je korupcija zapravo mali problem -

if it is a problem, it's only a small problem,

da ako je problem, u stvari je mali problem,

that in fact it's only a little 10 or 15 percent,

da zapravo čini samo malih 10 ili 15 posto,

it's been going on forever, it probably will continue forever,

da postoji od davnina i da će se verovatno nastaviti i u budućnosti

and there's no point passing any laws, because there's little we can do about it.

i da nema nikakvog smisla usvajati zakone, jer zapravo ne možemo mnogo šta učiniti.

And I want to demonstrate that that, too,

I želim da demonstriram da je i to

is a dangerous myth, very dangerous.

opasan mit, veoma opasan.

It's a piece of public mischief.

To je lažno predstavljanje stvari u javnosti.

And I want to speak a little bit,

I želim da kažem nešto,

take us back about 30 years.

o periodu 30 godina unazad.

We're coming out today from Trinidad and Tobago,

Mi smo danas Trinidad i Tobago,

a resource-rich, small Caribbean country,

mala karipska zemlja, bogata resursima

and in the early 1970s we had a massive increase in the country's wealth,

i početkom '70-ih došlo je do velikog porasta u bogatstvu zemlje,

and that increase was caused by the increase in world oil prices.

što je prouzrokovano porastom svetske cene nafte.

We call them petrodollars. The treasury was bursting with money.

Zovemo ih petrodolarima. Državna kasa je pucala od količine novca.

And it's ironic, because

Što je ironično

we're standing today in the Central Bank.

jer se danas nalazimo u Centralnoj banci.

You see, history's rich in irony.

Vidite, istorija je bogata ironijom.

We're standing today in the Central Bank,

Danas se nalazimo u Centralnoj banci,

and the Central Bank is responsible for a lot of the things I'm going to be speaking about.

a Centralna banka je odgovorna za mnoge stvari o kojima ću danas pričati.

Okay? We're talking about irresponsibility in public office.

OK? Govorimo o neodgovornosti državne administracije.

We're speaking about the fact that across the terrace,

Govorimo o činjenici da je preko puta terase

the next tower is the Ministry of Finance,

kula Ministarstva finansija,

and there's a lot of connection with us today,

i postoji velika veza sa nama danas,

so we're speaking within your temple today. Okay?

pa pričamo unutar vašeg hrama danas. Ok?

(Applause)

(Aplauz)

The first thing I want to talk about is that

Prva stvar o kojoj želim da govorim jeste

when all of this money flowed into our country about 40 years ago,

da kad se sav taj novac slio u našu zemlju pre oko 40 godina

we embarked, the government of the day embarked

upustili smo se, tadašnja vlada se upustila

on a series of government-to-government arrangements

u niz aranžmana sa drugim vladama

to have rapidly develop the country.

kako bi ubrzano razvili zemlju.

And some of the largest projects in the country

I neki od najvećih projekata u zemlji

were being constructed through government-to-government arrangements

su bili dogovoreni u saradnji sa drugim vladama,

with some of the leading countries in the world,

sa nekim od vodećih zemalja na svetu,

the United States and Britain and France and so on and so on.

Sjedinjenim državama, Britanijom, Francuskom i ostalim.

As I said, even this building we're standing in -- that's one of the ironies --

Kao što sam rekao, čak i ova zgrada - to je jedna od ironija -

this building was part of that series of complexes,

ova zgrada je bila deo niza velikih kompleksa,

what they called the Twin Towers.

koji su zvali Kulama bliznakinjama.

It became so outrageous, the whole situation,

Cela situacija je postala toliko sramna,

that in fact a commission of inquiry was appointed,

da je zapravo formirana istražna komisija,

and it reported in 1982, 30 years ago it reported --

koja je izvestila 1982, pre 30 godina je izvestila -

the Ballah Report -- 30 years ago,

Balah izveštaj - pre 30 godina

and immediately the government-to-government arrangements were stopped.

i odmah su aranžmani saradnje sa drugim vladama stopirani.

The then-Prime Minister went to Parliament

Tadašnji premijer je otišao u Parlament

to give a budget speech, and he said some things that I'll never forget.

kako bi izvestio o budžetu i rekao je neke stvari koje nikad neću zaboraviti.

They went right in here. I was a young man at the time.

Zadržale su se ovde. Bio sam mladić u to vreme.

It went right into my heart.

Reči su ušle pravo u moje srce.

And he said that, in fact — Let me see if this thing works.

I rekao je da u stvari - samo da vidim da li ovo radi.

Are we getting a, yeah?—

Sve u redu?

That's what he told us.

Ovo nam je rekao.

He told us that, in fact,

Rekao nam je da su u stvari,

two out of every three dollars of our petrodollars

2 od svaka 3 naša petrodolara

that we spent, the taxpayers' money,

koje smo potrošili, novac poreskih obveznika,

was wasted or stolen.

protraćena ili ukradena.

So the 10 or 15 percent is pure mischief.

Tako da je tih 10 ili 15 posto prava laž.

As we say, it's a nancy-story. Forget it.

Rekli smo, to je bajka. Zaboravi. To je za malu decu.

That's for little children. We are big people,

and we're trying to deal with what's happening in our society.

Mi smo odrasli ljudi

i pokušavamo da se nosimo sa ovim šta se dešava u našem društvu.

Okay? This is the size of the problem.

OK? To je veličina problema.

Okay? Two thirds of the money stolen or wasted.

OK? Dve trećine novca je ukradeno ili protraćeno.

That was 30 years ago. 1982 was Ballah.

To je bilo pre 30 godina. 1982. je bio Balah.

So what has changed?

Šta se promenilo?

I don't like to bring up embarrassing secrets

Ne volim da iznosim sramotne tajne

to an international audience, but I have to.

pred međunarodnom publikom, ali moram.

Four months ago, we suffered a constitutional outrage in this country.

Pre četiri meseca pretrpeli smo ustavnu sramotu u ovoj zemlji.

We call it the Section 34 fiasco, the Section 34 fiasco,

Zovemo je fijasko Odeljka 34, fijasko Odeljka 34,

a suspicious piece of law, and I'm going to say it like it is,

sumnjivi zakon i reći ću kako zapravo stoje stvari,

a suspicious piece of law

sumnjivi zakon

was passed at a suspicious time

koji je usvojen u sumnjivo vreme

to free some suspects. (Laughter)

da bi se oslobodili određeni osumnjičeni. (Smeh)

And it was called, those people are called

I zvali su ih, ti ljudi se zovu

the Piarco Airport accused.

"optuženi Piarko aerodroma".

I'm going to have my own lexicon speaking here today.

Imaću sopstveni rečnik ovde danas.

They are the Piarco Airport accused.

Oni su "optuženi Piarko aerodroma".

It was a constitutional outrage of the first order,

Bila je to ustavna sramota prvog stepena

and I have labeled it the Plot to Pervert Parliament.

i ja sam je označio kao zaveru da se izopači parlament.

Our highest institution in our country was perverted.

Naša najviša institucija u zemlji bila je izopačena.

We are dealing with perverts here

Radimo sa izopačenim ljudima ovde

of an economic and financial nature.

ekonomske i finansijske prirode.

Do you get how serious this problem is?

Shvatate koliko je ozbiljan problem?

There was massive protest. A lot of us in this room

Došlo je do masovnog protesta. Puno ljudi u ovoj prostoriji

took part in the protest in different forms.

je učestvovalo u tom protestu na različite načine.

Most importantly, the American embassy complained,

A najvažnije, američka ambasada se žalila,

so Parliament was swiftly reconvened,

pa je parlament ponovo sazvan

and the law was reversed, it was repealed.

i zakon je promenjen, bio je ukinut.

That's the word lawyers use. It was repealed.

To je termin koji pravnici koriste. Bio je ukinut.

But the point is

Ali poenta je

that Parliament was outwitted in the whole course of events,

da je parlament nadmudren u celoj stvari,

because what really happened is that,

jer ono što se u stvari desilo jeste,

because of the suspicious passage of that law,

zbog sumnjivog usvajanja zakona,

the law was actually passed into effect

zakon je zapravo stupio na snagu

on the weekend we celebrated our 50th anniversary of independence,

za vikend kad smo slavili 50. godišnjicu nezavisnosti,

our jubilee of independence.

naš jubilej nezavisnosti.

So that is the kind of outrage of the thing.

To je zapravo sramota cele stvari.

It was kind of a nasty way to get maturation, but we got it,

Bio je to gnusan način da sazrimo, ali smo uspeli,

because we all understood it,

jer smo svi shvatili

and for the first time that I could remember,

i po prvi put od kad sam mogao da se setim,

there were mass protests against this corruption.

došlo je do masovnih protesta protiv ove korupcije.

And that gave me a lot of hope. Okay?

I to mi je dalo puno nade. OK?

Those of us who are, sometimes you feel like

Ponekad se osećaš

you're a little bit on your own doing some of this work.

kao da si sam i da sve to radiš sam.

That passage of the law and the repeal of the law

Usvajanje i kasnije ukidanje tog zakona

fortified the case of the Piarco Airport accused.

potvrdio je slučaj "optuženih Piarko aerodroma".

So it was one of those really superior double bluff kind of things that took place.

Tako da je to zapravo bio dupli blef, ta situacija do koje je došlo.

But what were they accused of?

Ali zašto su oni bili optuženi?

What was it that they were accused of?

Šta je to bilo da su bili optuženi?

I'm being a bit mysterious for those of you out there. What were they accused of?

Malo sam misteriozan za vas koji ste ovde. Zašto su bili optuženi?

We were trying to build, or reconstruct largely,

Pokušali smo da izgradimo ili da u velikom delu rekonstruišemo

an airport that had grown outdated.

zastareli aerodrom.

The entire project cost about 1.6 billion dollars,

Ceo projekat je koštao 1,6 milijardi dolara,

Trinidad and Tobago dollars,

Trinidad i Tobago dolara,

and in fact, we had a lot of bid-rigging

i u stvari imali smo dosta nameštanja ponuda,

and suspicious activity, corrupt activity took place.

sumnjivih aktivnosti, koruptivnih aktivnosti.

And to get an idea of what it consisted of,

I da biste dobili celu sliku,

and to put it in context in relationship to this whole

i sve to stavili u kontekst i vezu

second myth about it being no big thing,

sa drugim mitom da to nije velika stvar,

we can look at this second slide here.

možemo da pogledamo drugi slajd ovde.

And what we have here -- I am not saying so,

I šta imamo ovde - to ne kažem ja,

this is the Director of Public Prosecutions in a written statement. He said so.

ovo su reči direktora Javnog tužilaštva u njegovom izveštaju. On je tako rekao.

And he's telling us that for the $1.6 billion cost of the project,

I kaže nam da je od projekta vrednog 1,6 milijardi dolara

one billion dollars has been traced

jedna milijarda pronađena

to offshore bank accounts.

na računima ofšor banaka.

One billion dollars of our taxpayers' money

Jedna milijarda novca poreskih obveznika

has been located in offshore bank accounts.

je pronađena na računima ofšor banaka.

Being the kind of suspicious person I am,

Kako sam inače sumnjičava osoba,

I am outraged at that, and I'm going to pause here,

zgrožen sam time, i napraviću pauzu ovde,

I'm going to pause now and again and bring in different things.

napraviću pauzu s vremena na vreme i istaknuti različite stvari.

I'm going to pause here and bring in something I saw

Napraviću pauzu ovde i podeliti nešto što sam video

in November last year at Wall Street. I was at Zuccotti Park.

novembra prošle godine na Vol stritu.

It was autumn. It was cool. It was damp. It was getting dark.

Bio sam u Zukoti parku.

Bila je jesen i bilo je hladno. Vlažno je bilo i padao je mrak.

And I was walking around with the protesters

Šetao sam sa ljudima koji su protestovali

looking at the One Wall Street, Occupy Wall Street movement walking around.

posmatrajući One Wall Street, Occupy Wall Street pokret.

And there was a lady with a sign, a very simple sign,

I video sam gospođu sa natpisom, jednostavnim,

a kind of battered-looking blonde lady,

nekako izmučena plava gospođa,

and the sign was made out of Bristol board, as we say in these parts,

natpis je bio od kartona

and it was made with a marker.

i bio je ispisan markerom.

And what it said on that sign hit me right in the center.

I ono što je bilo napisano me je pogodilo do srži.

It said, "If you're not outraged, you haven't been paying attention."

Pisalo je: ''Ako nisi zaprepašćen, nisi obraćao pažnju.''

If you're not outraged by all of this, you haven't been paying attention.

Ako te sve ovo nije zaprepastilo, nisi obraćao pažnju.

So listen up, because we're getting into even deeper waters.

Slušajte sad, jer ulazimo u dublje vode.

My brain started thinking.

Moj mozak je počeo da razmišlja.

Well, what if --

Šta ako -

because I'm suspicious like that. I read a lot of spy novels and stuff.

jer sam sumnijičav inače. Čitam dosta špijunskih romana.

What if -- (Laughter)

Šta ako - (Smeh)

But to make it in these wrongs,

Ali da biste uspeli u ovom zlodelu,

you have to read a lot of spy novels

morate da čitate dosta takvih romana,

and follow some of that stuff, right? (Laughter)

i ispratite neke od tih stvari, zar ne? (Smeh)

But what if this wasn't the first time?

Ali šta ako ovo nije bilo prvi put?

What if this is just the first time

Šta ako je to samo prvi put

that the so-and-sos had been caught?

da su taj i taj uhvaćeni?

What if it had happened before? How would I find out?

Šta ako se desilo ranije? Kako bih inače to saznao?

Now, the previous two examples I gave

Prethodna dva primera koja sam dao

were to do with construction sector corruption, okay?

su se odnosila na korupciju u građevinskom sektoru, OK?

And I have the privilege at this time

Ja sad imam privilegiju

to lead the Joint Consultative Council, which is a not-for-profit.

da vodim neprofitnu organizaciju zvanu Savet zajedničke inicijative.

We're at jcc.org.tt, and we have the -- we are the leaders

Naš sajt je jcc.org.tt, i mi smo lideri

in the struggle to produce a new public procurement system

u borbi za izgradnju novog sistema javnih nabavki

about how public money is transacted.

i toga kako se javni novac koristi.

So those of you interested in finding out more about it,

Za one od vas koji su zainteresovani da saznaju više o tome

or joining us or signing up on any of our petitions, please get involved.

ili da nam se pridruže ili potpišu neku od naših peticija,

molim vas da se uključite.

But I'm going to segue to another thing that relates,

Ali preći ću na drugu sličnu temu,

because one of my private campaigns I've been conducting

zbog jedne od mojih privatnih kampanja,

for over three and a half years

koju vodim već više od tri i po godine

is for transparency and accountability

i koja se odnosi na transparentnost i odgovornost

around the bailout of CL Financial.

vezane za spasavanje od bankrota kompanije CL Fajnenšl.

CL Financial is the Caribbean's largest ever conglomerate, okay?

CL Fajnenšel je najveći karipski konglomerat svih vremena, ok?

And without getting into all of the details,

I bez ulaženja u sve detalje,

it is said to have collapsed — I'm using my words very carefully —

navodno je propao - biram svoje reči vrlo pažljivo -

it's said to have collapsed in January of '09,

navodno je propao u januaru 2009. godine,

which is just coming up to nearly four years.

što je sada već skoro četiri godine.

In an unprecedented fit of generosity --

U nezapamćenom izlivu velikodušnosti -

and you have to be very suspicious about these people --

a morate biti veoma sumnjičavi kad su ovi ljudi u pitanju -

in an unprecedented — and I'm using that word carefully —

u nezapamćenom - koristim pažljivo ovu reč -

unprecedented fit of generosity, the government of the day

nezapamćenom izlivu velikodušnosti, tadašnja vlada je potpisala,

signed, made a written commitment, to repay all of the creditors.

pismeno se obavezala da vrati sve dugove poveriocima.

And I can tell you without fear of contradiction

I mogu vam reći bez straha da budem kontradiktoran,

that hasn't happened anywhere else on the planet.

ovo se nije desilo nigde na planeti.

Let's understand, because we lack context.

Da probamo da razumemo, nedostaje nam kontekst.

People are telling us it's just like Wall Street. It's not just like Wall Street.

Ljudi nam govore da je isto kao na Vol Stritu. Nije kao Vol Strit.

Trinidad and Tobago is like a place with different laws of physics or biology or something.

Trinidad i Tobago je izgleda mesto sa drugačijim zakonima fizike ili biologije.

It's not just like anywhere. (Applause)

Nije kao u ostalim delovima sveta. (Aplauz)

It's not just like anywhere. It's not just like anywhere.

Nije kao na drugim mestima sveta. Prosto nije.

Here is here, and out there is out there. Okay?

Ovo je ovde, a tamo je tamo. OK?

I'm serious now.

Ozbiljan sam sad.

Listen. They've had bailouts on Wall Street.

Slušajte. Imali su finansijska spašavanja i na Vol Stritu.

They've had bailouts in London.

Imali su ih i u Londonu.

They've had bailouts in Europe.

Bilo ih je u Evropi.

In Africa, they've had bailouts. In Nigeria, six of the major

U Africi, bilo je finansijskih spašavanja.

commercial banks collapsed at the same time as ours, eh?

U Nigeriji šest najvećih banaka je doživelo kolaps u isto vreme, zar ne?

It's interesting to parallel how the Nigerian experience has --

Interesantno je napraviti paralelu sa nigerijskim iskustvom

how they've treated it, and they've treated it

i kako su oni to sredili, mnogo bolje

very well compared to us.

u poređenju sa nama.

Nowhere on the planet

Nigde na planeti

have all the creditors been bailed out

nisu svi poverioci isplaćeni

in excess of what their statutory entitlements were.

više od onog što im je zakonski pripadalo.

Only here. So what was the reason for the generosity?

Samo ovde. Pa šta je bio razlog za ovu velikodušnu isplatu?

Is our government that generous? And maybe they are.

Je li naša vlada toliko darežljiva? Možda i jeste.

Let's look at it. Let's look into it.

Hajde da vidimo.

So I started digging and writing and so and so on,

Počeo da istažujem i da pišem

and that work can be found, my personal work

i taj ceo posao možete naći

can be found at AfraRaymond.com, which is my name.

na sajtu AfraRaymond.com, što je moje ime.

It's a not-for-profit blog that I run.

Neprofitni blog koji pišem.

Not as popular as some of the other people, but there you go.

Nije tako popularan kao od nekih ljudi, ali šta da radim.

(Laughter)

(Smeh)

But the point is that the bitter experience of Section 34,

Ali poenta je da me je to gorko iskustvo Odeljka 34,

that plot to pervert Parliament, that bitter experience

zavere da se opstruira Parlament, to gorko iskustvo

that took place in August,

koje se dogodilo u avgustu,

when we were supposed to be celebrating our independence,

kada smo trebali da proslavimo našu nezavisnost,

going into September, forced me to check myself

nateralo da u septembru promislim,

and recalculate my bearings,

da revidiram moj stav,

and to go back into some of the work, some of the stuff I'd written

i vratim se na stvari koje sam napisao,

and some of the exchanges I'd had with the officials

i razmenu koju sam imao sa zvaničnicima

to see what was really what.

i da vidim o čemu se zapravo radi.

As we say in Trinidad and Tobago, who is who and what is what?

Kako kažemo kod nas, da vidim ko je ko i šta je šta?

Okay? We want to try to recalculate.

OK? Želimo da se preračunamo.

And I made a Freedom of Information application

I podneo sam zahtev u skladu sa Zakonom o slobodi informacija

in May this year to the Ministry of Finance.

Ministarstvu finansija, u maju ove godine.

The Ministry of Finance is the next tower over.

Ministarstvo finansija je sledeća kula pored.

This is the other context.

To je drugi kontekst.

The Ministry of Finance, we are told,

Kako nam je rečeno, Ministarstvo finansija

is subject to the provisions of the Freedom of Information Act.

podleže odredbama Zakona o slobodnom pristupu informacijama.

I'm going to take you through a worked example of whether that's really so.

Provešću vas kroz primer da li je to zapravo tako.

The Central Bank in which we stand this morning

Centralna banka u kojoj se jutros nalazimo

is immune from the provisions of the Freedom of Information Act.

je izuzeta od odredbi Zakona o slobodnom pristupu informacijama.

So in fact, you can't ask them anything,

Tako da ih možete pitati bilo šta,

and they don't have to answer anything.

a oni ne moraju da vam odgovore.

That is the law since 1999.

Ovaj zakon je na snazi od 1999. godine.

So I plunged into this struggle, and I asked four questions.

Ipak sam ušao u borbu i postavio četiri pitanja.

And I'll relate the questions to you in the short form with the reply,

Predstaviću vam pitanja ukratko, zajedno sa odgovorom,

so you could understand, as I said, where we are.

kako biste mogli razumeti, kao što sam rekao, gde se nalazimo.

Here is not like anywhere else.

Ovde nije kao na drugim mestima.

Question number one:

Prvo pitanje:

I asked to see the accounts of CL Financial,

tražio sam da vidim račune firme CL Fajnenšel,

and if you can't show me the accounts --

a ako ne možete da mi pokažete račune -

the Minister of Finance is making statements,

ministar finansija daje izjave,

passing new laws and giving speeches and so on.

usvaja zakone, drži govore, itd.

What are the figures he's relying on?

Na koje se brojke on zapravo oslanja?

It's like that joke: I want whatever he's drinking.

To je kao onaj vic: uzeću ono što on pije.

And they wrote back and said to me,

I odgovorili su mi,

well what do you really mean?

na šta zapravo mislite?

So they hit my question with a question.

Odgovorili su na moje pitanje, pitanjem.

Second point: I want to see

Druga tačka: želim da vidim

who are the creditors of the group who have been repaid?

ko su poverioci grupe koja je bila isplaćena?

Let me pause here to point out to you all

Napraviću pauzu da bih vam rekao

that 24 billion dollars of our money has been spent on this.

da je 24 milijarde dolara našeg novca bilo potrošeno na ovo.

That is about three and a half billion U.S. dollars

To je otprilike oko tri i po milijarde američkih dolara

coming out of a small -- we used to be resource-rich --

male karipske zemlje, nekad bogate resursima.

Caribbean country. Okay?

OK?

And I asked the question,

I postavio sam pitanje,

who was getting that three and a half billion dollars?

ko dobija te tri i po milijarde dolara?

And I want to pause again to bring up context,

Želim opet da napravim pauzu da stavim stvari u kontekst,

because context helps us to get clarity understanding this thing.

jer nam on pomaže da jasnije razumemo stvari.

There's a particular individual who is in the government now.

Postoji jedna osoba koja je trenutno u vladi.

The name of the person doesn't matter.

Ime te osobe nije bitno.

And that person made a career

I ta osoba je napravila karijeru

out of using the Freedom of Information Act

koristeći Zakon o slobodnom pristupu informacijama,

to advance his political cause.

kako bi politčki napredovao.

Okay? His name isn't important.

OK? Njegovo ime nije bitno.

I wouldn't dignify it. I'm on a point.

Ne zaslužuje da se imenuje. Želim da napravim poentu.

The point is, that person made a career out of using

Poenta jeste, da je ta osoba napravila karijeru koristeći

the Freedom of Information Act to advance his cause.

Zakon o slobodnom pristupu informacijama radi sopstvenog napretka.

And the most famous case

I najpoznatiji slučaj

was what we came to call the Secret Scholarship Scandal,

je bio kad smo razotkrili skandal skivenih školarina,

where in fact there was about 60 million dollars in government money

gde se zapravo oko 60 miliona dolara državnog novca

that had been dispersed in a series of scholarships,

delilo na različite školarine,

and the scholarships hadn't been advertised, and so and so on and so on.

koje nisu ni bile javno objavljene, itd.

And he was able to get the court, using that act of Parliament,

I on je uspeo da dođe do suda, koristeći taj zakon,

Freedom of Information Act,

Zakon o slobodnom pristupu informacijama,

to release the information,

da objavi sve te informacije

and I thought that was excellent.

i ja sam pomislio kako je to odlično.

Fantastic.

Fantastično.

But you see, the question is this:

Ali vidite, pitanje je ovo:

If it's right and proper for us to use the Freedom of Information Act

ako mi možemo da se pozivamo na Zakon o slobodnom pristupu informacijama

and to use the court

i da koristimo sud

to force a disclosure about 60 million dollars in public money,

kako bi se razotkrilo korišćenje oko 60 miliona državnog novca,

it must be right and proper

trebalo bi da možemo

for us to force a disclosure about 24 billion dollars.

da razotkrijemo korišćenje te 24 milijarde dolara.

You see? But the Ministry of Finance,

Vidite? Ali Ministarstvo finansija,

the Permanent Secretary of the Ministry of Finance,

Stalni sekretar Ministarstva finansija,

wrote me and said to me, that information is exempt too.

mi je odgovorio da je ta informacija takođe izuzeta od objavljivanja.

You see? This is what we're dealing with, okay?

Vidite? Sa ovim imamo posla, ok?

The third thing I will tell you

Treća stvar koju ću vam reći

is that I also asked

jeste da sam takođe pitao

for the directors of CL Financial,

za direktore CL Fajnenšela,

whether in fact they were making filings under our Integrity in Public Life Act.

da li su u stvari davali izveštaje

u skladu sa Zakonom o integritetu u javnom životu.

We have an Integrity in Public Life Act

Imamo Zakon o integritetu u javnom životu,

as part of our framework supposed to safeguard the nation's interest.

kao deo zakonskog okvira koji treba da štiti nacionalni interes.

And public officials are supposed to file

I zvaničnici su u obavezi da podnose

to say what it is they have in terms of assets and liabilities.

izveštaj o ličnoj imovini.

And of course I've since discovered that they're not filing,

Naravno, tad sam otkrio da to ne rade,

and in fact the Minister of Finance has not even asked them to file.

pa čak i da Ministar finansija nije to tražio od njih.

So here we have it. We have a situation where

Tu smo. Imamo situaciju gde se

the basic safeguards of integrity and accountability

osnovne garancije integriteta i odgovornosti

and transparency have all been discarded.

i transparentnosti ne poštuju.

I've asked the question in the legal and required fashion.

Postavio sam pitanje na zakonski i ispravan način.

It's been ignored.

Ignorisano je.

The sort of thing that motivated us around Section 34,

Ono što nas je motivisalo u vezi sa Odeljkom 34,

we need to continue to work on that. We can't forget it.

moramo da nastavimo sa tim.

Ne smemo da zaboravimo.

I have defined this as the single largest expenditure in the country's history.

Podveo sam ovo pod najveći trošak u istoriji zemlje.

It's also the single largest example

Takođe je prema ovoj jednačini, najveći primer

of public corruption according to this equation.

javne korupcije.

And this is my reality check.

A ovo je moje otvaranje očiju.

Where you have an expenditure of public money

Gde god da imate trošenje državnog novca

and it is without accountability

bez ikakve odgovornosti

and it's without transparency,

na netransparentan način,

it will always be equal to corruption,

biće uvek jednako korupciji,

whether you're in Russia or Nigeria or Alaska,

bez obzira da li živite u Rusiji, Nigeriji ili na Aljasci,

it will always be equal to corruption, and that is what we are dealing with here.

uvek će biti jednako korupciji i to je ono sa čim se mi ovde nosimo.

I'm going to continue the work

Nastaviću da radim,

to press on, to get some resolution

da vršim pritisak, kako bih dobio neke odgovore

of those matters at the Ministry of Finance.

na ova pitanja od Ministarstva finansija.

If it is I have to go to court personally, I will do that.

Ako moram ja lično da idem na sud, ići ću.

We will continue to press on.

Nastavićemo da vršimo pritisak.

We will continue to work within JCC.

Nastavićemo da radimo u okviru Saveta zajedničke inicijative.

But I want to step back from the Trinidad and Tobago context

Ali želim malo da izađem iz konteksta Trinidad i Tobaga

and bring something new to the table

in terms of an international example.

i nešto novo izložim,

u vidu međunarodnog primera.

We had the journalist [Heather] Brooke speaking

Bila je novinarka Heder Bruk, koja je govorila

about her battle against government corruption,

o svojoj borbi protiv državne korupcije

and she introduced me to this website, Alaveteli.com.

i ona me je upoznala sa sajtom, Alaveteli.com.

And Alaveteli.com is a way for us to have an open database

Alaveteli.com je način da imamo otvorenu bazu

for Freedom of Information applications,

za podnošenje zahteva po osnovu Zakona o slobodnom pristupu informacijama

and speak with each other.

i da pričamo jedni sa drugima.

I could see what you're applying for.

Mogu da vidim kakve zahteve podnosite.

You could see what I applied for and what replies I got.

Vi možete da vidite šta sam ja podneo i koje odgovore sam dobio.

We can work on it together. We need to build a collective database

Možemo da radimo zajedno na tome.

Moramo da napravimo zajedničku bazu

and a collective understanding of where we are to go to the next point.

i da imamo zajednički stav gde smo i šta nam je sledeći korak.

We need to increase the consciousness.

Moramo da podignemo svest.

The final thing I want to say is in relation to this one,

Zadnja stvar koju želim da kažem je u vezi sa ovim sajtom,

which is a lovely website from India

jednim simpatičnim indijskim sajtom,

called IPaidABribe.com.

koji se zove IPaidABribe.com.

They have international branches,

Imaju međunarodnu mrežu,

and it's important for us to tune into this one.

i važno je za nas da se uključimo u ovo.

IPaidABribe.com is really important,

IPaidABribe.com (dao sam mito) je vrlo važan sajt,

a good one to log on to and see.

toliko da odete i proverite.

I'm going to pause there. I'm going to ask you for your courage.

Napraviću pauzu ovde. Tražiću od vas malo hrabrosti.

Discard the first myth; it is a crime.

Odbacite prvi mit; to jeste krivično delo.

Discard the second myth; it is a big thing.

Odbacite drugi mit; to jeste velika stvar.

It's a huge problem. It's an economic crime.

To je veliki problem. U pitanju je privredni kriminal.

And let us continue working together

I hajde da zajedno radimo,

to betterment in this situation,

da doprinesmo

stability and sustainability in our society. Thank you.

stabilnosti i održivosti našeg društva. Hvala vam.