Karen Tse: How to stop torture

Translator: Klavdija Cernilogar Reviewer: Lenka Tušar

In 1994, I walked into a prison in Cambodia,

Leta 1994 sem obiskala zapor v Kambodži

and I met a 12-year-old boy

in spoznala dvanajstletnega fanta,

who had been tortured

ki so ga mučili

and was denied access to counsel.

in mu preprečili dostop do obrambe.

And as I looked into his eyes, I realized

Ko sem mu pogledala v oči, sem spoznala,

that for the hundreds of letters I had written

da kljub stotinam pisem, ki sem jih napisala

for political prisoners, that I would never have

v podporo političnim zapornikom, nikoli ne bi

written a letter for him,

napisala pisma v njegovo podporo,

because he was not a 12-year-old boy who

saj ni bil dvanajstletnik,

had done something important for anybody.

ki bi za kogarkoli naredil kaj pomembnega.

He was not a political prisoner.

Ni bil politični zapornik.

He was a 12-year-old boy who had

Bil je dvanajstletni deček,

stolen a bicycle.

ki je ukradel kolo.

What I also realized at that point was that

Takrat sem tudi ugotovila,

it was not only Cambodia, but

da ne gre samo za Kambodžo,

of the 113

ampak da je od 113 držav v razvoju,

developing countries that torture,

ki izvajajo mučenje,

93 of these countries have all passed laws

93 med njimi sprejelo zakone,

that say you have a right to a lawyer

ki dajejo pravico do odvetnika

and you have a right not to be tortured.

in prepovedujejo mučenje.

And what I recognized was that there was an

Pri tem sem spoznala, da obstaja

incredible window of opportunity for us

neverjetna priložnost, da se

as a world community to come together

kot svetovna skupnost združimo

and end torture as an investigative tool.

in končamo mučenje kot preiskovalno prakso.

We often think of torture as being

O mučenju pogosto razmišljamo kot

political torture or reserved for

da je politične narave ali omejeno

just the worst, but, in fact,

samo za najhujše ljudi, a v resnici

95 percent of torture today

dandanes 95 odstotkov žrtev mučenja

is not for political prisoners.

niso politični zaporniki.

It is for people who are

So ljudje, ki so se znašli

in broken-down legal systems,

v nedelujočih pravnih sistemih

and unfortunately because torture is

in na žalost zato, ker je mučenje

the cheapest form of investigation --

najcenejša oblika preiskovanja...

it's cheaper than having a legal system,

cenejša kot imeti pravni sistem,

cheaper than having a lawyer

cenejša od odvetnika

and early access to counsel --

in od zgodnjega dostopa do obrambe...

it is what happens most of the time.

večinoma se dogaja to.

I believe today that it is possible for us

Verjamem, da lahko, če se

as a world community, if we make a decision,

kot svetovna skupnost odločimo,

to come together and end torture

da bomo stopili skupaj, še v času našega življenja

as an investigative tool in our lifetime,

končamo mučenje kot preiskovalno orodje,

but it will require three things.

a potrebne bodo tri stvari.

First is the training, empowerment,

Prva je usposabljanje, opolnomočenje

and connection of defenders worldwide.

in povezanost branilcev pravic po svetu.

The second is insuring that there is

Druga je zagotavljanje

systematic early access to counsel.

sistematičnega zgodnjega dostopa do obrambe.

And the third is commitment.

In tretja je zavezanost.

So in the year 2000,

Leta 2000

I began to wonder,

sem se začela spraševati,

what if we came together?

kaj če bi stopili skupaj.

Could we do something

Bi lahko naredili kaj

for these 93 countries?

za teh 93 držav?

And I founded International Bridges to Justice

In ustanovila sem Mednarodne mostove do pravice,

which has a specific mission of

s posebno misijo

ending torture as an investigative tool

končati mučenje kot preiskovalno metodo

and implementing due process rights

in izvajati pravico do poštenega sojenja v 93 državah,

in the 93 countries by placing trained lawyers

tako da bi usposobljene odvetnike v zgodnji fazi

at an early stage in police stations

pripeljali na policijske postaje

and in courtrooms.

in v sodne dvorane.

My first experiences, though, did come

Moje prve izkušnje pa so iz Kambodže

from Cambodia, and at the time I remember

in spomnim se, da ko sem

first coming to Cambodia and there were,

leta 1994 prvič prišla v Kambodžo,

in 1994, still less than

je bilo tam

10 attorneys in the country because

manj kot deset odvetnikov,

the Khmer Rouge had killed them all.

saj je režim Rdečih kmerov vse pobil.

And even 20 years later, there was only

Še dvajset let kasneje

10 lawyers in the country, so consequently

jih je bilo komaj deset,

you'd walk into a prison and

zato smo ob prihodu v zapor srečali

not only would you meet 12-year-old boys,

ne samo dvanajstletne fante,

you'd meet women and you'd say,

ampak tudi ženske; vprašali smo jih

"Why are you here?" Women would say,

"Zakaj ste tu?" Ženske so odvrnile:

"Well I've been here for 10 years because

"Tu sem že deset let, ker je moj mož

my husband committed a crime, but they can't find him."

zagrešil zločin, ampak ga ne morejo najti."

So it's just a place where there was no rule of law.

Gre za prostor, kjer vladavina prava ni obstajala.

The first group of defenders came together

Prva skupina zagovornikov je prišla skupaj

and I still remember, as I was training, I said,

in še se spomnim treninga, na katerem sem rekla:

"Okay, what do you do for an investigation?"

"Ok, kako izvajate preiskavo?"

And there was silence in the class, and finally

V razredu je nastala tišina in končno

one woman stood up, [inaudible name],

je ena od žensk vstala [ime ni razumljivo]

and she said "Khrew," which means "teacher."

in dejala "Khrew", kar pomeni "učitelj".

She said, "I have defended more than

Rekla je: "Branila sem več kot sto ljudi

a hundred people, and I've never had to do

in nikoli mi ni bilo treba

any investigation,

izvesti preiskave,

because they all come with confessions."

saj vsi pridejo s priznanjem."

And we talked about, as a class, the fact that

Kot razred smo se pogovarjali o tem, da

number one, the confessions

prvič, priznanja morda niso zanesljiva,

might not be reliable, but number two,

in drugič,

we did not want to encourage the police

da nočemo spodbujati policije,

to keep doing this, especially

naj to še naprej počne, še posebej

as it was now against the law.

ker je protizakonito.

And it took a lot of courage for these

Ti zagovorniki so potrebovali

defenders to decide that they would

veliko poguma, da so začeli

begin to stand up and support each other

braniti in podpirati drug drugega

in implementing these laws.

pri izvajanju teh zakonov.

And I still remember the first cases where

Še se spomnim prvih primerov, ko

they came, all 25 together, she would

je vseh 25 skupaj prišlo na obravnavo,

stand up, and they were in the back, and

ena je vstala, ostali so bili v ozadju,

they would support her, and the judges kept

da bi jo podprli, sodniki pa so govorili:

saying, "No, no, no, no, we're going to do things

"Ne, ne, ne, ne, stvari bomo počeli

the exact same way we've been doing them."

natanko tako kot doslej."

But one day the perfect case came, and it

A nekoč je prišel popoln primer,

was a woman who was a vegetable seller,

šlo je za prodajalko zelenjave,

she was sitting outside of a house.

ki je sedela pred hišo.

She said she actually saw the person

Dejala je, da je videla nekoga

run out who she thinks stole

priteči ven, za katerega je menila, da je ukradel

whatever the jewelry was, but the police

neke vrste nakit, a prišla je policija

came, they got her, there was nothing on her.

in jo prijela, vendar ničesar niso našli.

She was pregnant at the time. She had

Takrat je bila noseča. Telo je imela

cigarette burns on her. She'd miscarried.

ožgano od cigaret. Splavila je.

And when they brought her case

In ko je njen primer prišel pred sodnika,

to the judge, for the first time he stood up

je ta prvič sploh vstal in dejal:

and he said, "Yes, there's no evidence

"Res, ni nobenega dokaza,

except for your torture confession

razen vašega priznanja, da se je zgodilo mučenje,

and you will be released."

in izpuščeni ste."

And the defenders began to take cases

Zagovorniki so začeli sprejemati

over and over again and

nove in nove primere in

you will see, they have step by step began

kot boste videli, so zlagoma začeli

to change the course of history in Cambodia.

spreminjati tok zgodovine v Kambodži.

But Cambodia is not alone.

Vendar Kambodža ni osamljena.

I used to think, well is it Cambodia?

Spraševala sem se, mar gre za Kambodžo?

Or is it other countries?

Ali gre za druge države?

But it is in so many countries.

A dogaja se v tako veliko državah.

In Burundi I walked into a prison and it wasn't

V Burundiju sem obiskala zapor in nisem srečala

a 12-year-old boy, it was an 8-year-old boy

dvanajstletnega, pač pa osemletnega fanta,

for stealing a mobile phone.

ki je ukradel mobilni telefon.

Or a woman, I picked up her baby,

Ali žensko, katere dojenčka sem vzela v roke,

really cute baby, I said "Your baby is so cute."

res srčkan dojenček. Rekla sem: "Vaš otročiček je tako lep."

It wasn't a baby, she was three.

Saj ni bil dojenček, punčka je imela tri leta.

And she said "Yeah, but she's why I'm here,"

In odgovorila je: "Ja, ampak zaradi nje sem tu,"

because she was accused of stealing

kajti obtožili so jo kraje

two diapers and an iron for her baby and

dveh plenic ter likalnika za svojega otroka

still had been in prison.

in še vedno je bila v zaporu.

And when I walked up to the prison director,

In ko sem odšla k direktorju zapora,

I said, "You've got to let her out.

sem dejala: "Morate jo izpustiti.

A judge would let her out."

Sodnik bi jo izpustil."

And he said, "Okay, we can talk about it,

In rekel je: "Prav, lahko se pogovoriva o tem,

but look at my prison. Eighty percent

ampak poglejte tale zapor. 80 odstotkov

of the two thousand people here

od dva tisoč ljudi tule

are without a lawyer. What can we do?"

nima odvetnika. Kaj lahko storimo?"

So lawyers began to courageously

Tako so odvetniki začeli pogumno

stand up together to organize a system

sodelovati, da bi organizirali sistem,

where they can take cases.

v katerem bi lahko sprejemali primere.

But we realized that it's not only the training

A ugotovili smo, da ni potrebno samo usposabljanje

of the lawyers, but the connection

odvetnikov, temveč povezava med njimi,

of the lawyers that makes a difference.

to naredi pomembno razliko.

For example, in Cambodia, it was that

V Kambodži, denimo,

[inaudible name] did not go alone

[ime ni razumljivo] ni bila sama,

but she had 24 lawyers with her

z njo je bilo 24 odvetnikov,

who stood up together. And in the same way,

ki so nastopili skupaj. Na enak način

in China, they always tell me,

to poteka na Kitajskem, vedno slišim:

"It's like a fresh wind in the desert

"Kot svež veter v puščavi je,

when we can come together."

ko pridemo skupaj."

Or in Zimbabwe, where I remember Innocent,

Ali v Zimbabveju, kjer se spominjam Innocenta,

after coming out of a prison where everybody

potem ko je prišel iz zapora, v katerem so

stood up and said, "I've been here

vsi skupaj rekli: "Tu sem že

for one year, eight years, 12 years

leto dni, osem let, dvanajst let

without a lawyer,"

brez odvetnika,"

he came and we had a training together

prišel je in skupaj sva izvedla trening

and he said, "I have heard it said" --

in dejal je: "Slišal sem govoriti"...

because he had heard people mumbling

kajti ljudi je slišal mrmrati in godrnjati...

and grumbling -- "I have heard it said that

"Slišal sem, da

we cannot help to create justice

ne moremo pomagati ustvarjati pravice,

because we do not have the resources."

ker nimamo sredstev."

And then he said, "But I want you to know

In potem je rekel: "Ampak želim, da veste,

that the lack of resources

da pomanjkanje sredstev

is never an excuse for injustice."

ni nikakršen izgovor za nepravičnost."

And with that, he successfully

Tako je uspešno

organized 68 lawyers who have been

organiziral 68 odvetnikov, ki zdaj

systematically taking the cases.

sistematično sprejemajo primere.

The key that we see, though, is training

Ključna stvar pa je, kot kaže, usposabljanje

and then early access.

in nato zgodnji dostop.

I was recently in Egypt, and was inspired

Nedavno sem bila v Egiptu, navdušena

to meet with another group of lawyers,

nad srečanjem s skupino pravnikov,

and what they told me is that they said,

ki so mi povedali:

"Hey, look, we don't have police

"Glejte, na ulicah sedaj ni policije.

on the streets now. The police are

Policija je eden od glavnih razlogov

one of the main reasons why we had

za to, da smo imeli revolucijo.

the revolution. They were torturing everybody

V tistem času

all the time."

so mučili vsakogar."

And I said, "But there's been tens of millions

Odvrnila sem: "Ampak na desetine milijonov

of dollars that have recently gone in

dolarjev je nedavno šlo za

to the development of the legal system here.

razvoj tukajšnjega pravnega sistema.

What's going on?"

Kaj se dogaja?"

I met with one of the development agencies,

Srečala sem se z eno od razvojnih agencij,

and they were training prosecutors

ki usposablja tožilce in sodnike,

and judges, which is the normal bias,

kar je običajna praksa,

as opposed to defenders.

v nasprotju z usposabljanjem zagovornikov.

And they showed me a manual which

Pokazali so mi priročnik,

actually was an excellent manual.

ki je bil pravzaprav odličen.

I said, "I'm gonna copy this."

Rekla sem: "Tole bom skopirala."

It had everything in it. Lawyers can come

Vse je imel. Odvetniki smejo priti

at the police station. It was perfect.

na policijsko postajo. Popoln je bil.

Prosecutors were perfectly trained.

Tožilci so bili odlično usposobljeni.

But I said to them, "I just have one question,

Potem sem jim rekla: "Imam samo eno vprašanje.

which is, by the time that everybody got to

Kaj se zgodi z ljudmi,

the prosecutor's office, what had happened to them?"

preden dosežejo tožilčevo pisarno?"

And after a pause, they said,

Po premolku so dejali:

"They had been tortured."

"Mučili so jih."

So the pieces are,

Sestavni deli so torej

not only the training of the lawyers, but

ne samo usposabljanje pravnikov, ampak

us finding a way to systematically implement

najti način, kako sistematično izvajati

early access to counsel, because they are

zgodnji dostop do obrambe, saj je to

the safeguard in the system

varovalka v sistemu

for people who are being tortured.

za ljudi, ki jih mučijo.

And as I tell you this, I'm also aware of the

In ko vam to pravim, se tudi zavedam, da

fact that it sounds like, "Oh, okay, it sounds

se sliši kot "oh, prav, zdi se, da bi to lahko naredili,

like we could do it, but can we really do it?"

ampak ali to res lahko naredimo?"

Because it sounds big.

Kajti sliši se gromozansko.

And there are many reasons why I believe it's possible.

In veliko razlogov je, zaradi katerih verjamem, da je mogoče.

The first reason is the people on the ground

Prvi je, da obstajajo ljudje,

who find ways of creating miracles

ki najdejo način za dosego čudežev,

because of their commitment.

ker so tako predani.

It's not only Innocent, who I told you about

Ne gre samo za Innocenta iz Zimbabveja,

in Zimbabwe, but defenders all over the world

ki sem ga omenila, ampak za zagovornike po vsem svetu,

who are looking for these pieces.

ki iščejo koščke te sestavljanke.

We have a program called JusticeMakers,

Imamo program z imenom JusticeMakers (tvorci pravice)

and we realized there are people that are

in ugotovili smo, da obstajajo pogumni ljudje,

courageous and want to do things, but

ki hočejo nekaj narediti,

how can we support them?

ampak kako jih lahko podpremo?

So it's an online contest where it's only

Gre za spletno tekmovanje z nagrado le

five thousand dollars if you come up with

5000 dolarjev, če razvijete

and innovative way of implementing justice.

inovativen način izvajanja pravice.

And there are 30 JusticeMakers

Po vsem svetu je 30 JusticeMaker-jev,

throughout the world, from Sri Lanka

od Šri Lanke do Svazilanda

to Swaziland to the DRC, who with

in Demokratične republike Kongo,

five thousand dollars do amazing things,

ki s 5000 dolarji delajo čudovite reči,

through SMS programs,

skozi SMS programe,

through paralegal programs,

skozi paralegalne programe,

through whatever they can do.

skozi kakršnokoli sredstvo pač lahko.

And it's not only these JusticeMakers,

In ne gre samo zanje,

but people we courageously see

ampak za ljudi, ki pogumno

figure out who their networks are

ugotavljajo, kdo je v njihovem omrežju

and how they can move it forward.

in kako ga lahko izboljšajo.

So in China, for instance, great laws

Na Kitajskem, na primer, so dosegli

came out where it says police cannot

odlične zakone, ki pravijo, da policija ne sme

torture people or they will be punished.

mučiti ljudi, sicer bo kaznovana.

And I was sitting side by side with one of our

Sedela sem poleg enega naših

very courageous lawyers, and said,

zelo pogumnih pravnikov in rekla:

"How can we get this out? How can we

"Kako lahko tole spravimo v javnost? Kako lahko zagotovimo,

make sure that this is implemented?

da se bo uresničevalo?

This is fantastic." And he said to me,

To je fantastično." Odgovoril je:

"Well, do you have money?" And I said,

"Hm, imaš denar?" In dejala sem: "Ne."

"No." And he said, "That's okay,

Potem je rekel: "V redu,

we can still figure it out."

si bomo že nekaj izmislili."

And on December 4, he organized

In četrtega decembra je organiziral

three thousand members

tri tisoč članov

of the Youth Communist League,

podmladka Zveze komunistov

from 14 of the top law schools,

s 14 najboljših pravnih fakultet,

who organized themselves, developed

ki so se organizirali,

posters with the new laws, and went

napravili posterje z novimi zakoni in

to the police stations and began what he says

šli na policijske postaje ter začeli, kot sam pravi,

is a non-violent legal revolution

nenasilno pravno revolucijo

to protect citizen rights.

za zaščito državljanskih pravic.

So I talked about the fact that we need

Govorila sem o tem, da je treba

to train and support defenders.

usposobiti in podpreti zagovornike.

We need to systematically implement

Sistematično moramo izvajati

early access to counsel.

zgodnji dostop do obrambe.

But the third and most important thing is that

Tretja najpomembnejša stvar pa je

we make a commitment to this.

zaveza.

And people often say to me, "You know,

Ljudje mi pogosto rečejo: "Veste,

this is great, but it's wildly idealistic.

to je krasno, ampak je noro idealistično.

Never going to happen."

Nikoli se ne bo zgodilo."

And the reason that I think that

Mislim, da so te besede zanimive,

those words are interesting is because

kajti to so bile

those were the same kinds of words

enake besede, kot tiste,

that were used for people who decided

ki so jih izrekali ljudem, ki so se odločili

they would end slavery, or end apartheid.

za ukinitev suženjstva ali konec apartheida.

It began with a small group of people

Začelo se je z majhno skupino ljudi,

who decided they would commit.

ki so se zavezali k nečemu.

Now, there's one of our favorite poems

Ena najljubših pesmi,

from the defenders, which they share

ki si jih delijo zagovorniki,

from each other, is:

gre takole:

"Take courage friends, the road is often long,

"Prijatelji, bodite pogumni, pot je pogosto dolga,

the path is never clear,

pot ni vedno jasna

and the stakes are very high,

in veliko je nevarnosti,

but deep down, you are not alone."

a globoko v sebi nisi sam."

And I believe that if we can come together

In verjamen, da če stopimo skupaj

as a world community to support not only

kot svetovna skupnost in podpremo

defenders, but also everyone in the system

ne samo zagovornike, pač pa vse dele sistema,

who is looking towards it,

ki si za to prizadevajo,

we can end torture as an investigative tool.

lahko ustavimo mučenje kot preiskovalno prakso.

I end always, because I'm sure the questions are --

Vem, da imate vprašanja

and I'd be happy to talk to you

in z veseljem se bom pogovorila z vami,

at any point -- "But what can I really do?"

zato vedno končam takole: "Kaj lahko dejansko storim?"

Well, I would say this. First of all,

Rekla bi takole. Prvič,

you know what you can do. But second of all,

veste, kaj lahko naredite. In drugič,

I would leave you with the story of Vishna,

naj vam povem zgodbo o Višni,

who actually was my inspiration

ki me je navdihnil

for starting International Bridges to Justice.

k ustanovitvi Mednarodnih mostov do pravice.

Vishna was a 4-year-old boy when I met him

Ko sem ga spoznala, je bil Višna štiriletni deček,

who was born in a Cambodian prison

rojen v kamboškem zaporu

in Kandal Province. But because he was

v provinci Kandal. A ker je bil

born in the prison, everybody loved him,

rojen v zaporu, so ga vsi imeli radi,

including the guards, so he was the only one

tudi pazniki, zato je bil edini,

who was allowed to come

ki je smel prihajati in odhajati

in and out of the bars.

izza rešetk.

So, you know, there's bars. And by the time

Veste, obstajajo rešetke.

that Vishna was getting bigger,

In ko je Višna rasel,

which means what gets bigger? Your head gets bigger.

in kaj pomeni rasti? Glava mu je rasla.

So he would come to the first bar,

Prišel je do prve rešetke,

the second bar and then the third bar,

do druge in potem tretje,

and then really slowly move his head

potem pa je počasi obrnil glavo,

so he could fit through, and come back,

da bi se lahko stlačil skozi in se vrnil,

third, second, first. And he would

skozi tretjo, drugo, prvo.

grab my pinkie, because what he wanted

In zagrabil je moj mezinec,

to do every day is he wanted to go visit.

ker je vsak dan hotel iti na obisk.

You know, he never quite made it to

Veste, ni mogel vseh obiskati v enem dnevu,

all of them every day, but he wanted to visit

ampak hotel je obiskati

all 156 prisoners. And I would lift him,

vseh 156 zapornikov. Jaz sem ga dvignila

and he would put his fingers through.

in svoje prste je pomolil skozi.

Or if they were dark cells, it was like iron

Če so bili v temnicah, je bilo kot bi se

corrugated, and he would put his fingers through.

jeklo upognilo in on je potisnil prste skozi.

And most of the prisoners said that he was

Večina zapornikov je povedala, da je bil

their greatest joy and their sunshine, and they

njihovo največje veselje in njihovo sonce in

looked forward to him. And I was like,

veselili so se ga. Mislila sem si,

here's Vishna. He's a 4-year-old boy.

tule je Višna. Štiriletni otrok.

He was born in a prison with almost nothing,

Rodil se je v zaporu skoraj brez vsega,

no material goods, but he had a sense of

brez materialnih dobrin, a imel je občutek

his own heroic journey, which I believe

za svoje lastno herojsko potovanje,

we are all born into. He said,

ki nam je, tako mislim, vsem vrojen. Dejal je:

"Probably I can't do everything.

"Verjetno ne morem narediti vsega.

But I'm one. I can do something.

Ampak en sam sem. Lahko naredim nekaj.

And I will do the one thing that I can do."

In naredil bom tisto, kar lahko."

So I thank you for having the prophetic

Zahvaljujem se vam za vašo preroško

imagination to imagine the shaping

domišljijo, da bi si zamislili

of a new world with us together,

oblikovanje novega sveta skupaj z nami,

and invite you into this journey with us.

in vabim vas na naše potovanje.

Thank you.

Hvala vam.

(Applause)

(aplavz)

Thank you.

Hvala.

(Applause)

(aplavz)

Thank you.

Hvala.

(Applause)

(aplavz)