Karen Tse: How to stop torture

Translator: Morten Kelder Skouboe Reviewer: Jonas Tholstrup Christensen

In 1994, I walked into a prison in Cambodia,

I 1994 gik jeg ind i et fængsel i Cambodja,

and I met a 12-year-old boy

og jeg mødte en 12 år gammel dreng,

who had been tortured

der var blevet tortureret

and was denied access to counsel.

og blev nægtet en advokat.

And as I looked into his eyes, I realized

Og mens jeg så ind i hans øjne, indså jeg,

that for the hundreds of letters I had written

at i de hundredvis af breve, jeg havde skrevet

for political prisoners, that I would never have

for politiske fanger, at jeg aldrig ville have

written a letter for him,

skrevet et brev for ham,

because he was not a 12-year-old boy who

for han var ikke en 12 år gammel dreng, der

had done something important for anybody.

havde gjort noget vigtigt for nogen.

He was not a political prisoner.

Han var ikke en politisk fange.

He was a 12-year-old boy who had

Han var en 12 år gammel dreng, der havde

stolen a bicycle.

stjålet en cykel.

What I also realized at that point was that

Det, jeg også indså på det tidspunkt, var, at

it was not only Cambodia, but

det ikke kun var Cambodja, men

of the 113

af de 113

developing countries that torture,

udviklingslande, der torturerer,

93 of these countries have all passed laws

93 af disse lande har alle vedtaget love,

that say you have a right to a lawyer

der siger, man har ret til en advokat,

and you have a right not to be tortured.

og man har ret til ikke at blive tortureret.

And what I recognized was that there was an

Og det, jeg genkendte, var, at der var et

incredible window of opportunity for us

utroligt vindue af mulighed for os

as a world community to come together

som verdenssamfund at komme sammen

and end torture as an investigative tool.

og stoppe tortur som et efterforskningsmiddel.

We often think of torture as being

Vi opfatter ofte tortur som værende

political torture or reserved for

politisk tortur eller gemt til

just the worst, but, in fact,

kun de værste, men i virkeligheden

95 percent of torture today

er 95 procent af al tortur i dag

is not for political prisoners.

ikke udøvet på politiske fanger.

It is for people who are

Det er for folk, der er

in broken-down legal systems,

i ødelagte retssystemer,

and unfortunately because torture is

og desværre fordi tortur er

the cheapest form of investigation --

den billigste form for efterforskning --

it's cheaper than having a legal system,

det er billigere end at have et retssystem,

cheaper than having a lawyer

billigere end at have en advokat

and early access to counsel --

og tidlig adgang til rådgivning --

it is what happens most of the time.

det er det, der sker det meste af tiden.

I believe today that it is possible for us

Jeg tror i dag, at det er muligt for os

as a world community, if we make a decision,

som verdenssamfund, hvis vi tager en beslutning,

to come together and end torture

at komme sammen og stoppe tortur

as an investigative tool in our lifetime,

som et efterforskningsmiddel i vores levetid,

but it will require three things.

men det vil kræve tre ting.

First is the training, empowerment,

Først kommer træningen, styrkelsen

and connection of defenders worldwide.

og forbindelsen mellem forsvarere verden over.

The second is insuring that there is

Dernæst kommer forsikringen om, at der er

systematic early access to counsel.

systematisk tidlig adgang til rådgivning.

And the third is commitment.

Og som det tredje kommer forpligtelse.

So in the year 2000,

Så i år 2000

I began to wonder,

begyndte jeg at overveje,

what if we came together?

hvad nu hvis vi kom sammen?

Could we do something

Kunne vi gøre noget

for these 93 countries?

for disse 93 lande?

And I founded International Bridges to Justice

Og jeg stiftede International Bridges to Justice,

which has a specific mission of

der har den specifikke mission

ending torture as an investigative tool

at stoppe tortur som efterforskningsmiddel

and implementing due process rights

og implementere passende procesrettigheder

in the 93 countries by placing trained lawyers

i de 93 lande ved at indsætte trænede advokater

at an early stage in police stations

på et tidligt stadie i politistationer

and in courtrooms.

og i retssale.

My first experiences, though, did come

Min første oplevelse kom dog

from Cambodia, and at the time I remember

fra Cambodja, og på den tid husker jeg, at jeg

first coming to Cambodia and there were,

for første gang kom til Cambodja, og der var

in 1994, still less than

i 1994 stadig færre end

10 attorneys in the country because

10 advokater i landet, fordi

the Khmer Rouge had killed them all.

De Røde Khmerer havde dræbt dem allesammen.

And even 20 years later, there was only

Og selv 20 år senere var der kun

10 lawyers in the country, so consequently

10 advokater i landet, så som konsekvens heraf

you'd walk into a prison and

ville man gå ind i et fængsel, og

not only would you meet 12-year-old boys,

man ville ikke bare møde 12-årige drenge,

you'd meet women and you'd say,

man ville møde kvinder, og man ville sige,

"Why are you here?" Women would say,

"Hvorfor er I her?" Kvinderne ville sige,

"Well I've been here for 10 years because

"Altså jeg har været her i 10 år, fordi

my husband committed a crime, but they can't find him."

min mand begik en forbrydelse, men de kan ikke finde ham."

So it's just a place where there was no rule of law.

Så det var bare et sted, hvor der ikke var nogen retsnormer.

The first group of defenders came together

Den første gruppe af forsvarere kom sammen,

and I still remember, as I was training, I said,

og jeg husker stadig, da jeg trænede, sagde jeg,

"Okay, what do you do for an investigation?"

"Okay, hvad gør I for at efterforske?"

And there was silence in the class, and finally

Og der var stilhed i klassen, og endelig

one woman stood up, [inaudible name],

rejste en kvinde sig, [utydeligt navn],

and she said "Khrew," which means "teacher."

og hun sagde "Khrew," der betyder "lærer."

She said, "I have defended more than

Hun sagde, "Jeg har forsvaret mere end

a hundred people, and I've never had to do

et hundrede mennesker, og jeg har aldrig haft brug for

any investigation,

at efterforske,

because they all come with confessions."

for de kommer alle med tilståelser."

And we talked about, as a class, the fact that

Og vi talte om, som klasse, det faktum, at

number one, the confessions

nummer ét, tilståelserne

might not be reliable, but number two,

måske ikke er pålidelige, men nummer to,

we did not want to encourage the police

vi ville ikke opfordre politiet til

to keep doing this, especially

at fortsætte med at gøre dette, især

as it was now against the law.

da det nu var imod loven.

And it took a lot of courage for these

Og det krævede en del mod af disse

defenders to decide that they would

forsvarere at beslutte sig for, at de ville

begin to stand up and support each other

begynde at rejse sig og støtte hinanden

in implementing these laws.

i at implementere disse love.

And I still remember the first cases where

Og jeg husker stadig de første sager, hvor

they came, all 25 together, she would

de kom, alle 25 sammen, hun ville

stand up, and they were in the back, and

rejse sig op, og de var bagerst, og

they would support her, and the judges kept

de ville støtte hende, og dommerne blev ved med

saying, "No, no, no, no, we're going to do things

at sige, "Nej, nej, nej, nej, vi gør tingene

the exact same way we've been doing them."

på nøjagtigt samme måde, vi altid har gjort dem."

But one day the perfect case came, and it

Men en dag kom den perfekte sag, og det

was a woman who was a vegetable seller,

var en kvinde, der var grøntsagssælger,

she was sitting outside of a house.

hun sad uden for et hus.

She said she actually saw the person

Hun sagde, hun faktisk så personen

run out who she thinks stole

løbe ud, som hun tror stjal

whatever the jewelry was, but the police

hvad det nu var for nogle smykker, men politiet

came, they got her, there was nothing on her.

kom, de fik hende, der var intet på hende.

She was pregnant at the time. She had

Hun var gravid på det tidspunkt. Hun havde

cigarette burns on her. She'd miscarried.

cigaretbrændemærker på sig. Hun havde aborteret.

And when they brought her case

Og da de bragte hendes sag

to the judge, for the first time he stood up

for dommeren, rejste han sig for første gang op,

and he said, "Yes, there's no evidence

og han sagde, "Ja, der er ingen beviser

except for your torture confession

ud over din torturtilståelse,

and you will be released."

og du skal løslades."

And the defenders began to take cases

Og forsvarerne begyndte at tage sager

over and over again and

igen og igen, og

you will see, they have step by step began

I vil se, de er skridt for skridt begyndt

to change the course of history in Cambodia.

at ændre historiens gang i Cambodja.

But Cambodia is not alone.

Men Cambodja er ikke alene.

I used to think, well is it Cambodia?

Jeg plejede at tænke, jamen er det Cambodja?

Or is it other countries?

Eller er det andre lande?

But it is in so many countries.

Men det findes i så mange lande.

In Burundi I walked into a prison and it wasn't

I Burundi gik jeg ind i et fængsel, og det var ikke

a 12-year-old boy, it was an 8-year-old boy

en 12 år gammel dreng, det var en 8 år gammel dreng

for stealing a mobile phone.

for at stjæle en mobiltelefon.

Or a woman, I picked up her baby,

Eller en kvinde, jeg samlede hendes baby op,

really cute baby, I said "Your baby is so cute."

virkelig sød baby, jeg sagde "Din baby er så sød."

It wasn't a baby, she was three.

Det var ikke en baby, hun var tre.

And she said "Yeah, but she's why I'm here,"

Og hun sagde "Jah, men hun er grunden til, jeg er her,"

because she was accused of stealing

fordi hun var anklaget for at stjæle

two diapers and an iron for her baby and

to bleer og et strygejern til sin baby og

still had been in prison.

havde stadig været i fængsel.

And when I walked up to the prison director,

Og da jeg gik op til fængselsdirektøren,

I said, "You've got to let her out.

sagde jeg, "Du er nødt til at slippe hende gå.

A judge would let her out."

En dommer ville lade hende gå."

And he said, "Okay, we can talk about it,

Og han sagde, "Okay, vi kan tale om det,

but look at my prison. Eighty percent

men se på mit fængsel. Firs procent

of the two thousand people here

af de to tusind folk her

are without a lawyer. What can we do?"

er uden advokat. Hvad kan vi gøre?"

So lawyers began to courageously

Så advokater begyndte modigt at

stand up together to organize a system

rejse sig sammen for at organisere et system,

where they can take cases.

hvor de kan tage sager.

But we realized that it's not only the training

Men vi indså, at det ikke kun er træningen

of the lawyers, but the connection

af advokater, men forbindelsen

of the lawyers that makes a difference.

mellem advokaterne, der gør en forskel.

For example, in Cambodia, it was that

For eksempel, i Cambodja var det, at

[inaudible name] did not go alone

[utydeligt navn] ikke var alene,

but she had 24 lawyers with her

men hun havde 24 advokater med sig,

who stood up together. And in the same way,

der stod op sammen. Og på samme måde

in China, they always tell me,

i Kina siger de altid til mig,

"It's like a fresh wind in the desert

"Det er som en frisk vind i ørkenen,

when we can come together."

når vi kan komme sammen."

Or in Zimbabwe, where I remember Innocent,

Eller i Zimbabwe, hvor jeg husker Innocent

after coming out of a prison where everybody

efter at være kommet ud af et fængsel, hvor alle

stood up and said, "I've been here

stod op og sagde, "Jeg har været her

for one year, eight years, 12 years

i et år, otte år, 12 år

without a lawyer,"

uden en advokat,"

he came and we had a training together

kom han, og vi trænede sammen,

and he said, "I have heard it said" --

og han sagde, "Jeg har hørt det sagt" --

because he had heard people mumbling

for han havde hørt folk mumle

and grumbling -- "I have heard it said that

og brokke sig -- "Jeg har hørt det sagt, at

we cannot help to create justice

vi ikke kan hjælpe til med at skabe retfærdighed,

because we do not have the resources."

fordi vi ikke har ressourcerne."

And then he said, "But I want you to know

Og så sagde han, "Men jeg vil gerne have du ved,

that the lack of resources

at manglen på ressourcer

is never an excuse for injustice."

aldrig er en undskyldning for uretfærdighed."

And with that, he successfully

Og med det organiserede han

organized 68 lawyers who have been

med succes 68 advokater, der systematisk

systematically taking the cases.

har taget sagerne.

The key that we see, though, is training

Nøglen, som vi ser det, er dog træning

and then early access.

og så tidlig adgang.

I was recently in Egypt, and was inspired

Jeg var for nyligt i Ægypten og blev inspireret

to meet with another group of lawyers,

til at mødes med en anden gruppe advokater,

and what they told me is that they said,

og det, de fortalte mig, er, at de sagde,

"Hey, look, we don't have police

"Hey, se her, vi har ikke politi

on the streets now. The police are

på gaderne nu. Politiet er

one of the main reasons why we had

en af hovedårsagerne til, hvorfor vi havde

the revolution. They were torturing everybody

den revolution. De torturerede alle

all the time."

hele tiden."

And I said, "But there's been tens of millions

Og jeg sagde, "Men der har været millionvis

of dollars that have recently gone in

af dollars, der for nyligt er blevet sat af

to the development of the legal system here.

til udviklingen af retssystemet her.

What's going on?"

Hvad sker der?"

I met with one of the development agencies,

Jeg mødtes med en af udviklingsbureauerne,

and they were training prosecutors

og de trænede anklagere

and judges, which is the normal bias,

og dommere, hvilket er den normale forudindtagethed,

as opposed to defenders.

i modsætningen til forsvarere.

And they showed me a manual which

Og de viste mig en manual, der

actually was an excellent manual.

egentlig var en fremragende manual.

I said, "I'm gonna copy this."

Jeg sagde, "Jeg vil kopiere denne."

It had everything in it. Lawyers can come

Den havde alt i sig. Advokater kan komme

at the police station. It was perfect.

på politistationen. Den var perfekt.

Prosecutors were perfectly trained.

Anklagere var perfekt trænede.

But I said to them, "I just have one question,

Men jeg sagde til dem, "Jeg har bare ét spørgsmål,

which is, by the time that everybody got to

som er, på det tidspunkt, hvor alle kom til

the prosecutor's office, what had happened to them?"

anklagerens kontor, hvad var der sket med dem?"

And after a pause, they said,

Og efter en pause sagde de,

"They had been tortured."

"De var blevet torturerede."

So the pieces are,

Så stykkerne er

not only the training of the lawyers, but

ikke kun træningen af advokaterne, men

us finding a way to systematically implement

at vi finder en vej til systematisk at implementere

early access to counsel, because they are

tidlig adgang til rådgivning, fordi de er

the safeguard in the system

systemets sikkerhedsforanstaltning

for people who are being tortured.

for folk, der bliver tortureret.

And as I tell you this, I'm also aware of the

Og mens jeg fortæller jer dette, er jeg også klar over,

fact that it sounds like, "Oh, okay, it sounds

at det lyder som, "Åh, okay, det lyder

like we could do it, but can we really do it?"

som om vi kunne gøre det, men kan vi virkelig gøre det?"

Because it sounds big.

For det lyder stort.

And there are many reasons why I believe it's possible.

Og der er mange grunde til, hvorfor jeg tror på, det er muligt.

The first reason is the people on the ground

Den første grund er folkene på jorden,

who find ways of creating miracles

der finder måder at skabe mirakler på

because of their commitment.

på grund af deres engagement.

It's not only Innocent, who I told you about

Det er ikke kun Innocent, som jeg fortalte jer om

in Zimbabwe, but defenders all over the world

i Zimbabwe, men forsvarere i hele verden,

who are looking for these pieces.

der leder efter disse stykker.

We have a program called JusticeMakers,

Vi har et program, der hedder JusticeMakers,

and we realized there are people that are

og vi indså, der er folk, der er

courageous and want to do things, but

modige og gerne vil gøre ting, men

how can we support them?

hvordan kan vi støtte dem?

So it's an online contest where it's only

Så det er en en online konkurrence, hvor man kun får

five thousand dollars if you come up with

fem tusind dollars, hvis man finder på

and innovative way of implementing justice.

en opfindsom måde at implementere retfærdighed.

And there are 30 JusticeMakers

Og der er 30 JusticeMakers

throughout the world, from Sri Lanka

i hele verden, fra Sri Lanka

to Swaziland to the DRC, who with

til Swaziland til DR Congo, der med

five thousand dollars do amazing things,

fem tusind dollars gør fantastiske ting,

through SMS programs,

gennem SMS programmer,

through paralegal programs,

gennem advokatmedhjælperprogrammer,

through whatever they can do.

gennem hvad nu end, de kan gøre.

And it's not only these JusticeMakers,

Og det er ikke kun disse JusticeMakers,

but people we courageously see

men folk, som vi ser modigt,

figure out who their networks are

finde ud af, hvem deres netværker er,

and how they can move it forward.

og hvordan de kan bevæge det fremad.

So in China, for instance, great laws

Så i Kina for eksempel kom gode love

came out where it says police cannot

ud, der siger, politiet ikke må

torture people or they will be punished.

torturere folk, ellers bliver de straffet.

And I was sitting side by side with one of our

Og jeg sad side om side med en af vores

very courageous lawyers, and said,

meget modige advokater og sagde,

"How can we get this out? How can we

"Hvordan kan vi føre det her ud? Hvordan kan vi

make sure that this is implemented?

sikre, at det her bliver implementeret?

This is fantastic." And he said to me,

Det er fantastisk." Og han sagde til mig,

"Well, do you have money?" And I said,

"Altså, har du penge?" Og jeg sagde,

"No." And he said, "That's okay,

"Nej." Og han sagde, "Det er okay,

we can still figure it out."

vi kan stadig finde ud af det."

And on December 4, he organized

Og den 4. december organiserede han

three thousand members

tre tusind medlemmer

of the Youth Communist League,

fra Youth Communist League

from 14 of the top law schools,

fra 14 af de bedste juridiske fakulteter,

who organized themselves, developed

der organiserede sig selv, udviklede

posters with the new laws, and went

plakater med de nye love og gik

to the police stations and began what he says

til politistationerne og begyndte med, hvad han siger,

is a non-violent legal revolution

er en ikke-voldelig retslig revolution

to protect citizen rights.

for at beskytte borgerrettigheder.

So I talked about the fact that we need

Så jeg talte om, at vi har brug for

to train and support defenders.

at træne og støtte forsvarere.

We need to systematically implement

Vi er nødt til systematisk at implementere

early access to counsel.

tidlig adgang til rådgivning.

But the third and most important thing is that

Men den tredje og vigtigste ting er, at

we make a commitment to this.

vi forpligter os til dette.

And people often say to me, "You know,

Og folk siger ofte til mig, "Altså,

this is great, but it's wildly idealistic.

det her er rigtig godt, men det er vildt idealistisk.

Never going to happen."

Sker aldrig."

And the reason that I think that

Og grunden til, jeg synes, at

those words are interesting is because

de ord er interessante, er, at

those were the same kinds of words

de ord var af den samme type,

that were used for people who decided

der blev brugt om folk, der besluttede,

they would end slavery, or end apartheid.

de ville stoppe slaveri eller stoppe apartheid.

It began with a small group of people

Det begyndte med en lille gruppe mennesker,

who decided they would commit.

der besluttede, de ville engagere sig.

Now, there's one of our favorite poems

Nu er der et af vores favoritdigte

from the defenders, which they share

fra forsvarerne, som de deler

from each other, is:

med hinanden, lyder:

"Take courage friends, the road is often long,

"Fat mod venner, vejen er ofte lang,

the path is never clear,

retningen er aldrig klar,

and the stakes are very high,

og indsatserne er meget høje,

but deep down, you are not alone."

men dybt nede, er I ikke alene."

And I believe that if we can come together

Og jeg tror, at hvis vi kan komme sammen

as a world community to support not only

som et verdenssamfund til at støtte ikke bare

defenders, but also everyone in the system

forsvarere, men også alle i systemet,

who is looking towards it,

der ser mod det,

we can end torture as an investigative tool.

kan vi stoppe tortur som et efterforskningsmiddel.

I end always, because I'm sure the questions are --

Jeg slutter altid af med, fordi jeg ved, hvad spørgsmålene er --

and I'd be happy to talk to you

og jeg vil være glad for at snakke med jer

at any point -- "But what can I really do?"

til enhver tid -- "Men hvad kan jeg virkelig gøre?"

Well, I would say this. First of all,

Altså, jeg ville sige dette. For det første

you know what you can do. But second of all,

ved I, hvad I kan gøre. Men for det andet

I would leave you with the story of Vishna,

vil jeg forlade jer med historien om Vishna,

who actually was my inspiration

der egentlig var min inspiration

for starting International Bridges to Justice.

til at starte International Bridges to Justice.

Vishna was a 4-year-old boy when I met him

Vishna var en 4 år gammel dreng, da jeg mødte ham,

who was born in a Cambodian prison

der blev født i et cambodjansk fængsel

in Kandal Province. But because he was

i Kandalprovinsen. Men fordi han blev

born in the prison, everybody loved him,

født i fængslet, elskede alle ham,

including the guards, so he was the only one

inklusive vagterne, så han var den eneste,

who was allowed to come

der fik lov til at komme

in and out of the bars.

på begge sider af tremmerne.

So, you know, there's bars. And by the time

Så, I ved, der er tremmer. Og som tiden gik,

that Vishna was getting bigger,

blev Vishna større,

which means what gets bigger? Your head gets bigger.

hvilket betød, hvad bliver større? Ens hoved bliver større.

So he would come to the first bar,

Så han ville komme til den første tremme,

the second bar and then the third bar,

den anden tremme og så den tredje tremme,

and then really slowly move his head

og så virkeligt langsomt bevæge sit hoved,

so he could fit through, and come back,

så han kunne mase sig igennem og komme tilbage,

third, second, first. And he would

tredje, anden, første. Og han ville

grab my pinkie, because what he wanted

gribe min lillefinger, fordi det, han ville

to do every day is he wanted to go visit.

gøre hver dag, er, han ville gå på besøg.

You know, he never quite made it to

I ved, han nåede aldrig helt

all of them every day, but he wanted to visit

dem alle hver dag, men han ville besøge

all 156 prisoners. And I would lift him,

alle 156 fanger. Og jeg ville løfte ham,

and he would put his fingers through.

og han ville putte sine fingre gennem.

Or if they were dark cells, it was like iron

Eller hvis det var mørke celler, var det som bølgeblik,

corrugated, and he would put his fingers through.

og han ville putte sine fingre igennem.

And most of the prisoners said that he was

Og de fleste af fangerne sagde, at han var

their greatest joy and their sunshine, and they

deres største fornøjelse og deres solskin, og de

looked forward to him. And I was like,

så frem til ham. Og jeg var sådan,

here's Vishna. He's a 4-year-old boy.

her er Vishna. Han er en 4 år gammel dreng.

He was born in a prison with almost nothing,

Han blev født i et fængsel med næsten ingenting,

no material goods, but he had a sense of

ingen materielle goder, men han havde en opfattelse af

his own heroic journey, which I believe

sin egen heroiske rejse, som jeg tror,

we are all born into. He said,

vi alle er født til. Han sagde,

"Probably I can't do everything.

"Sandsynligvis kan jeg ikke gøre alt.

But I'm one. I can do something.

Men jeg er én. Jeg kan gøre noget.

And I will do the one thing that I can do."

Og jeg vil gøre den ene ting, som jeg kan gøre."

So I thank you for having the prophetic

Så jeg takker jer for at have den profetiske

imagination to imagine the shaping

fantasi til at forestille jer formningen

of a new world with us together,

af en ny verden med os sammen

and invite you into this journey with us.

og inviterer jer til denne rejse med os.

Thank you.

Tak.

(Applause)

(Bifald)

Thank you.

Tak.

(Applause)

(Bifald)

Thank you.

Tak.

(Applause)

(Bifald)