Karen Tse: How to stop torture

Translator: Andrés Trigo Reviewer: Raquel Uzal

In 1994, I walked into a prison in Cambodia,

En 1994 entrei nunha prisión en Camboxa

and I met a 12-year-old boy

e coñecín un neno de 12 anos

who had been tortured

que fora torturado

and was denied access to counsel.

e ao que lle denegaran o acceso a un avogado.

And as I looked into his eyes, I realized

E ao miralo aos ollos decateime

that for the hundreds of letters I had written

de que dos centos de cartas que tiña escrito

for political prisoners, that I would never have

a presos políticos, nunca lle escribira

written a letter for him,

ningunha carta para el,

because he was not a 12-year-old boy who

porque non era un rapaz de 12 anos que

had done something important for anybody.

fixera algo importante para alguén.

He was not a political prisoner.

Non era un preso político.

He was a 12-year-old boy who had

Era un neno de 12 anos que

stolen a bicycle.

roubara unha bicicleta.

What I also realized at that point was that

Do que tamén me decatei daquela foi que

it was not only Cambodia, but

non só era en Camboxa, senón que

of the 113

dos 113 países

developing countries that torture,

en vías de desenvolvemento que torturaban,

93 of these countries have all passed laws

93 destes países aprobaron leis

that say you have a right to a lawyer

que outorgan o dereito a un avogado

and you have a right not to be tortured.

e o dereito a non ser torturado.

And what I recognized was that there was an

E decateime de que existía

incredible window of opportunity for us

unha incrible ventá de oportunidades para todos nós

as a world community to come together

como comunidade mundial para poder unirnos

and end torture as an investigative tool.

e pórlle fin á tortura como método de investigación.

We often think of torture as being

A miúdo pensamos na tortura como unha forma de

political torture or reserved for

tortura política ou que está reservada

just the worst, but, in fact,

tan só para os peores pero, de feito,

95 percent of torture today

o 95 % das torturas de hoxe en día

is not for political prisoners.

non son para presos políticos.

It is for people who are

Son para persoas

in broken-down legal systems,

que se atopan en sistemas xudiciais colapsados e,

and unfortunately because torture is

por desgraza, posto que a tortura é

the cheapest form of investigation --

a forma máis barata de investigación

it's cheaper than having a legal system,

(é máis barato que ter un sistema xudicial,

cheaper than having a lawyer

máis barato que ter un avogado

and early access to counsel --

ou acceso temperán a asistencia)

it is what happens most of the time.

é o que ocorre a maioría das veces.

I believe today that it is possible for us

A día de hoxe coido que si é posible para nós

as a world community, if we make a decision,

como comunidade mundial, se tomamos esa decisión,

to come together and end torture

unirnos e rematar coa tortura

as an investigative tool in our lifetime,

como método de investigación durante a nosa vida,

but it will require three things.

pero isto requirirá de tres cousas.

First is the training, empowerment,

Primeiro vén a formación, a atribución de poder

and connection of defenders worldwide.

e a conexión de defensores a escala mundial.

The second is insuring that there is

A segunda é garantir que existe

systematic early access to counsel.

un acceso temperán e sistemático á asistencia.

And the third is commitment.

E a terceira é o compromiso.

So in the year 2000,

Por iso no ano 2000,

I began to wonder,

comecei a preguntarme,

what if we came together?

e se nos unimos?

Could we do something

Poderiamos facer algo

for these 93 countries?

por eses 93 países?

And I founded International Bridges to Justice

E fundei a International Bridges to Justice

which has a specific mission of

que ten como misión específica

ending torture as an investigative tool

a de rematar coa tortura como método de investigación

and implementing due process rights

e poñer en práctica os debidos dereitos procesuais

in the 93 countries by placing trained lawyers

nestes 93 países, situando a avogados cualificados

at an early stage in police stations

nunha fase inicial en comisarías

and in courtrooms.

e en tribunais.

My first experiences, though, did come

Porén, as miñas primeiras experiencias viñeron

from Cambodia, and at the time I remember

de Camboxa e das lembranzas

first coming to Cambodia and there were,

da miña primeira visita a Camboxa, cando había,

in 1994, still less than

en 1994, aínda menos de

10 attorneys in the country because

10 avogados no país

the Khmer Rouge had killed them all.

porque o Khmer Vermello matáraos a todos.

And even 20 years later, there was only

E mesmo 20 anos despois, tan só había

10 lawyers in the country, so consequently

10 avogados no país e, polo tanto,

you'd walk into a prison and

ao entrares nunha prisión

not only would you meet 12-year-old boys,

non só te atopabas cun rapaz de 12 anos,

you'd meet women and you'd say,

senón que te atopabas con mulleres tamén

"Why are you here?" Women would say,

e o preguntarlles "Por que estades aquí?", elas respondían:

"Well I've been here for 10 years because

"Pois levamos aquí dende fai 10 anos porque

my husband committed a crime, but they can't find him."

o meu marido cometeu un delito pero non o poden atopar".

So it's just a place where there was no rule of law.

É un lugar onde non existía o estado de dereito.

The first group of defenders came together

O primeiro grupo de defensores xuntouse

and I still remember, as I was training, I said,

e aínda me lembro, mentres me formaba, que preguntei:

"Okay, what do you do for an investigation?"

"Ben, que facedes para investigar?".

And there was silence in the class, and finally

E a sala quedárase en silencio e, finalmente,

one woman stood up, [inaudible name],

unha muller levantouse, [nome inaudible],

and she said "Khrew," which means "teacher."

e dixo "Khrew" que significa "mestre".

She said, "I have defended more than

E dixo: "Teño defendido máis dun cento

a hundred people, and I've never had to do

de persoas e endexamais tiven que facer

any investigation,

ningunha investigación,

because they all come with confessions."

porque todos veñen con confesións".

And we talked about, as a class, the fact that

E falamos, como clase, do feito que

number one, the confessions

primeiro, as confesións

might not be reliable, but number two,

talvez non son fiables e, segundo,

we did not want to encourage the police

non queriamos animar á policía

to keep doing this, especially

a que seguise facendo isto, sobre todo

as it was now against the law.

porque agora ía en contra da lei.

And it took a lot of courage for these

E estes defensores tiveron que armarse de valor

defenders to decide that they would

para decidir que comezarían

begin to stand up and support each other

a defender e apoiarse entre eles

in implementing these laws.

para poder poñer en práctica estas leis.

And I still remember the first cases where

E aínda me lembro dos primeiros casos onde

they came, all 25 together, she would

viñeron, os 25 xuntos,

stand up, and they were in the back, and

ela de pé e o resto detrás,

they would support her, and the judges kept

e eles apoiábana, mentres os xuíces seguían dicindo:

saying, "No, no, no, no, we're going to do things

"Non, non, non, non, imos a facer as cousas

the exact same way we've been doing them."

da mesma maneira na que se levan feito ata o de agora".

But one day the perfect case came, and it

Pero un día apareceu o caso perfecto.

was a woman who was a vegetable seller,

Era unha muller que vendía verduras e que

she was sitting outside of a house.

estaba sentada fóra dunha casa.

She said she actually saw the person

Ela afirmou que en realidade vira á persoa

run out who she thinks stole

saír correndo e cría que roubara

whatever the jewelry was, but the police

as xoias en cuestión, pero a policía chegou,

came, they got her, there was nothing on her.

e collérona, pero ela non tiña nada enriba.

She was pregnant at the time. She had

Por aquel entón ela estaba embarazada.

cigarette burns on her. She'd miscarried.

Tiña queimaduras de cigarros. Tivera un aborto.

And when they brought her case

E cando se levou o seu caso

to the judge, for the first time he stood up

ante un xuíz, por primeira vez este parouse

and he said, "Yes, there's no evidence

e dixo: "Si, non existen probas

except for your torture confession

excepto pola confesión baixo tortura

and you will be released."

e polo tanto será posta en liberdade".

And the defenders began to take cases

E os defensores comezaron a levar casos

over and over again and

unha e outra vez e

you will see, they have step by step began

como veredes, pouco a pouco foron comezando

to change the course of history in Cambodia.

a cambiar o curso da historia de Camboxa.

But Cambodia is not alone.

Pero Camboxa non está soa.

I used to think, well is it Cambodia?

Adoitaba pensar: entón é só en Camboxa?

Or is it other countries?

Ou tamén ocorre noutros países?

But it is in so many countries.

Pero ocorre en tantos países…

In Burundi I walked into a prison and it wasn't

En Burundi entrei nunha prisión e non había

a 12-year-old boy, it was an 8-year-old boy

un rapaz de 12 anos, senón un neno de 8 anos

for stealing a mobile phone.

que roubara un teléfono móbil.

Or a woman, I picked up her baby,

Ou unha muller, collín en brazos ao seu bebé,

really cute baby, I said "Your baby is so cute."

un bebé moi fermoso, e dixen: "O teu bebé é tan lindo!".

It wasn't a baby, she was three.

Pero non era un bebé, a nena tiña tres anos.

And she said "Yeah, but she's why I'm here,"

E ela díxome: "Si, pero estou aquí por ela",

because she was accused of stealing

xa que estaba acusada de roubar

two diapers and an iron for her baby and

dous cueiros e un ferro de pasar para o seu bebé

still had been in prison.

e aínda así estaba en prisión.

And when I walked up to the prison director,

E cando fun xunto do director da prisión,

I said, "You've got to let her out.

díxenlle: "Tes que deixala en liberdade.

A judge would let her out."

Un xuíz deixaríaa libre".

And he said, "Okay, we can talk about it,

E el respondeume: "Vale, podemos falalo,

but look at my prison. Eighty percent

pero mira a miña prisión.

of the two thousand people here

O 80 % dos dous milleiros de persoas aquí

are without a lawyer. What can we do?"

están sen avogados. Que podemos facer nós?"

So lawyers began to courageously

E entón os avogados comezaron a xuntarse

stand up together to organize a system

para organizar un sistema

where they can take cases.

onde puidesen levar os casos.

But we realized that it's not only the training

E decatámonos que non só era a formación

of the lawyers, but the connection

dos avogados, senón a conexión

of the lawyers that makes a difference.

dos avogados a que marcaba a diferenza.

For example, in Cambodia, it was that

Por exemplo, en Camboxa, o que pasou foi que

[inaudible name] did not go alone

[nome inaudible] non foi soa

but she had 24 lawyers with her

senón que tiña a 24 avogados con ela

who stood up together. And in the same way,

que se uniran. E da mesma maneira,

in China, they always tell me,

na China, sempre me contan que

"It's like a fresh wind in the desert

"É coma un vento fresco no deserto

when we can come together."

cando podemos reunirnos".

Or in Zimbabwe, where I remember Innocent,

Ou en Cimbabue, onde me lembro de Innocent,

after coming out of a prison where everybody

despois de saír dunha prisión onde todo o mundo

stood up and said, "I've been here

se ergueu e dixo: "Levo aquí dende fai

for one year, eight years, 12 years

un ano, oito anos, doce anos

without a lawyer,"

sen un avogado",

he came and we had a training together

e viu e formámonos xuntos.

and he said, "I have heard it said" --

Díxome: "Oín dicir…"

because he had heard people mumbling

(porque escoitara a xente murmurar

and grumbling -- "I have heard it said that

e laiarse) "oín dicir que

we cannot help to create justice

non podemos axudar a crear xustiza

because we do not have the resources."

xa que non dispoñemos dos recursos".

And then he said, "But I want you to know

E despois matizou: "Pero quero que saibas

that the lack of resources

que a falta de recursos

is never an excuse for injustice."

nunca foi escusa para a inxustiza".

And with that, he successfully

E con isto organizou

organized 68 lawyers who have been

con éxito a 68 avogados que levan collendo

systematically taking the cases.

os casos de maneira sistemática.

The key that we see, though, is training

Así e todo, a solución que atopamos foi a formación

and then early access.

e logo, o acceso temperán.

I was recently in Egypt, and was inspired

Fai pouco que estiven en Exipto e decidín

to meet with another group of lawyers,

reunirme con outro grupo de avogados.

and what they told me is that they said,

O que me contaron foi que eles dicían:

"Hey, look, we don't have police

"Mira, agora non temos policía

on the streets now. The police are

nas rúas. A policía é

one of the main reasons why we had

unha das principais razóns polas que tivemos

the revolution. They were torturing everybody

a revolución. Torturaban a todo o mundo

all the time."

a todas horas".

And I said, "But there's been tens of millions

E eu díxenlles: "Pero aquí investíronse decenas

of dollars that have recently gone in

de millóns de dólares recentemente no

to the development of the legal system here.

desenvolvemento do sistema xudicial.

What's going on?"

Que está ocorrendo entón?"

I met with one of the development agencies,

Reuninme cunha das axencias de desenvolvemento

and they were training prosecutors

e estaban a formar fiscais

and judges, which is the normal bias,

e xuíces, que resulta ser a tendencia normal,

as opposed to defenders.

no canto de defensores.

And they showed me a manual which

Mostráronme tamén un manual que

actually was an excellent manual.

de feito era excelente.

I said, "I'm gonna copy this."

E díxenlles: "Vou copialo".

It had everything in it. Lawyers can come

Tíña todo nel. Os avogados poden vir

at the police station. It was perfect.

á comisaría de policía. Era perfecto.

Prosecutors were perfectly trained.

Os fiscais estaban perfectamente formados.

But I said to them, "I just have one question,

Pero díxenlles: "Só teño unha pregunta.

which is, by the time that everybody got to

Antes de que todos chegaran

the prosecutor's office, what had happened to them?"

á oficina do fiscal, que pasaba con eles mentres?"

And after a pause, they said,

E tras unha pausa, respondían:

"They had been tortured."

"Torturábanos".

So the pieces are,

E polo tanto as pezas clave son

not only the training of the lawyers, but

non só a formación dos avogados, senón

us finding a way to systematically implement

atopar unha maneira para pór en práctica sistematicamente

early access to counsel, because they are

o acceso temperán á asistencia, porque eles son

the safeguard in the system

a garantía no sistema

for people who are being tortured.

para a xente que está a ser torturada.

And as I tell you this, I'm also aware of the

E mentres vos conto isto, tamén son consciente

fact that it sounds like, "Oh, okay, it sounds

de que soa como un "Si, claro, parece

like we could do it, but can we really do it?"

como se se puidese facer, pero podémolo facer en realidade?"

Because it sounds big.

Porque parece algo enorme.

And there are many reasons why I believe it's possible.

E son moitas as razóns polas que creo que si é posible.

The first reason is the people on the ground

A primeira delas é que as persoas sobre o terreo

who find ways of creating miracles

atopan maneiras de crear milagres

because of their commitment.

grazas ao seu compromiso.

It's not only Innocent, who I told you about

E non só é Innocent, de quen vos falei

in Zimbabwe, but defenders all over the world

en Cimbabue, senón tamén defensores por todo o mundo

who are looking for these pieces.

que están a buscar ditas pezas clave.

We have a program called JusticeMakers,

Temos un programa chamado JusticeMakers,

and we realized there are people that are

e decatámonos de que había xente afouta

courageous and want to do things, but

e que quería axudar,

how can we support them?

pero como podiamos apoialos?

So it's an online contest where it's only

Tan só é un concurso en liña onde se poden gañar

five thousand dollars if you come up with

cinco mil dólares se se che ocorre

and innovative way of implementing justice.

algunha idea innovadora de poñer en práctica a xustiza.

And there are 30 JusticeMakers

E existen 30 JusticeMakers

throughout the world, from Sri Lanka

en todo o mundo, dende Sri Lanka

to Swaziland to the DRC, who with

ata Swazilandia ou a República Democrática do Congo,

five thousand dollars do amazing things,

que con cinco mil dólares fan cousas incribles,

through SMS programs,

mediante programas por SMS,

through paralegal programs,

programas paralegais

through whatever they can do.

e calquera maneira que atopan.

And it's not only these JusticeMakers,

E non só existen estes JusticeMakers,

but people we courageously see

senón que tamén hai xente valente

figure out who their networks are

que comprende cales son os seus contactos

and how they can move it forward.

e como poden avanzar con eles.

So in China, for instance, great laws

Por exemplo, na China promulgáronse leis

came out where it says police cannot

que impedían que os policías puidesen

torture people or they will be punished.

torturar á xente xa que serían castigados.

And I was sitting side by side with one of our

E mentres estaba sentada

very courageous lawyers, and said,

xunto a un dos nosos valentes avogados, díxenlle:

"How can we get this out? How can we

"E como poderemos espallalo? Como poderemos

make sure that this is implemented?

asegurarnos de que isto se porá en práctica?

This is fantastic." And he said to me,

Isto é fantástico". E el contestoume:

"Well, do you have money?" And I said,

"Ti tes cartos?" E respondín:

"No." And he said, "That's okay,

"Non". E el díxome: "Está ben,

we can still figure it out."

aínda así atoparemos a maneira".

And on December 4, he organized

E o 4 de decembro organizou

three thousand members

a tres mil membros

of the Youth Communist League,

da Unión da Xuventude Comunista,

from 14 of the top law schools,

de 14 das mellores escolas de dereito,

who organized themselves, developed

que se organizaron eles mesmos e elaboraron

posters with the new laws, and went

pósters coas novas leis e foron

to the police stations and began what he says

ás comisarías de policía e comezaron cunha

is a non-violent legal revolution

revolución legal non violenta, segundo dicía el,

to protect citizen rights.

para protexer os dereitos dos cidadáns.

So I talked about the fact that we need

Xa falei do feito que precisamos

to train and support defenders.

formar e apoiar aos defensores.

We need to systematically implement

Necesitamos pór en práctica de forma sistemática

early access to counsel.

o acceso temperán á asistencia.

But the third and most important thing is that

Pero o terceiro e último punto, o máis importante,

we make a commitment to this.

é que nos comprometamos con isto.

And people often say to me, "You know,

E normalmente a xente dime: "Pois isto

this is great, but it's wildly idealistic.

está moi ben, pero é demasiado idealista.

Never going to happen."

Xamais ocorrerá".

And the reason that I think that

E o motivo polo que considero que

those words are interesting is because

esta opinión é interesante é porque

those were the same kinds of words

esa foi exactamente a mesma opinión

that were used for people who decided

que se empregou para as persoas que se decidiron

they would end slavery, or end apartheid.

a rematar coa escravitude ou o apartheid.

It began with a small group of people

Comezou cun pequeno grupo de persoas

who decided they would commit.

que decidiron implicarse.

Now, there's one of our favorite poems

Un dos nosos poemas favoritos

from the defenders, which they share

dos defensores, que eles comparten

from each other, is:

entre si mesmos, é:

"Take courage friends, the road is often long,

"Fai falla valor, amigos, o camiño acostuma ser longo,

the path is never clear,

a ruta nunca é clara,

and the stakes are very high,

e hai moito en xogo,

but deep down, you are not alone."

pero no fondo, non estades sos".

And I believe that if we can come together

E estou segura de que se podemos unirnos

as a world community to support not only

como unha comunidade mundial para apoiar non só

defenders, but also everyone in the system

aos defensores, senón tamén a todo o mundo no sistema

who is looking towards it,

que estea intentando acadalo,

we can end torture as an investigative tool.

poderemos rematar coa tortura como método de investigación.

I end always, because I'm sure the questions are --

E sempre remato, porque sei que a pregunta será

and I'd be happy to talk to you

(e será un pracer falar con vós nalgún momento)

at any point -- "But what can I really do?"

"Pero que podo facer eu realmente?"

Well, I would say this. First of all,

Pois en primeiro lugar diríavos

you know what you can do. But second of all,

que xa sabedes o que podedes facer. E en segundo lugar,

I would leave you with the story of Vishna,

deixaríavos coa historia de Vishna,

who actually was my inspiration

que de feito foi a miña inspiración

for starting International Bridges to Justice.

para fundar a International Bridges to Justice.

Vishna was a 4-year-old boy when I met him

Vishna era un neno de catro anos cando o coñecín.

who was born in a Cambodian prison

Nacera nunha prisión camboxana

in Kandal Province. But because he was

na provincia de Kandal. Pero como nacera

born in the prison, everybody loved him,

na prisión, todos lle tiñan moito aprecio,

including the guards, so he was the only one

mesmo os gardas, polo que era o único

who was allowed to come

que podía entrar

in and out of the bars.

e saír de entre as reixas.

So, you know, there's bars. And by the time

E claro, como sabedes, hai reixas. E para cando

that Vishna was getting bigger,

Vishna comezou a medrar,

which means what gets bigger? Your head gets bigger.

que é o que tamén medra? A cabeza.

So he would come to the first bar,

O que facía era pasar pola primeira reixa,

the second bar and then the third bar,

e pola segunda e logo pola terceira,

and then really slowly move his head

e despois, moi de vagar, movía a cabeza

so he could fit through, and come back,

para poder pasala a través e volvía:

third, second, first. And he would

dende a terceira ata a primeira.

grab my pinkie, because what he wanted

E collíame o dedo maimiño,

to do every day is he wanted to go visit.

porque o que el quería facer a diario era ir visitar.

You know, he never quite made it to

Por suposto, nunca conseguía visitar

all of them every day, but he wanted to visit

a todo o mundo a diario, pero si quería visitar

all 156 prisoners. And I would lift him,

a todos os 156 presos. E ao collelo,

and he would put his fingers through.

el pasaba os seus dedos a través.

Or if they were dark cells, it was like iron

Ou se as celas estaban escuras, era como

corrugated, and he would put his fingers through.

ferro ondulado e pasaba os seus dedos a través.

And most of the prisoners said that he was

E a meirande parte dos presos afirmaban

their greatest joy and their sunshine, and they

que era a súa maior ledicia e o seu sol e que sempre

looked forward to him. And I was like,

o agardaban ansiosos. E eu pensaba:

here's Vishna. He's a 4-year-old boy.

aquí está Vishna. Un neno de catros anos.

He was born in a prison with almost nothing,

Naceu nunha prisión sen case nada,

no material goods, but he had a sense of

sen bens materiais, pero cun sentido

his own heroic journey, which I believe

da súa propia viaxe heroica, que na miña opinión

we are all born into. He said,

todos nacemos nunha. E contoume:

"Probably I can't do everything.

"Seguramente non poderei facelo todo.

But I'm one. I can do something.

Pero son unha persoa. Podo facer algo.

And I will do the one thing that I can do."

E farei a única cousa que podo facer".

So I thank you for having the prophetic

E por iso vos agradezo por ter a imaxinación

imagination to imagine the shaping

profética para imaxinar a formación

of a new world with us together,

dun novo mundo con todos nós xuntos

and invite you into this journey with us.

e convídovos a facer este viaxe connosco.

Thank you.

Grazas.

(Applause)

(Aplauso)

Thank you.

Grazas.

(Applause)

(Aplauso)

Thank you.

Grazas.

(Applause)

(Aplauso)