Karen Tse: How to stop torture

譯者: Ana Choi 審譯者: Chueh-chen Wang

In 1994, I walked into a prison in Cambodia,

在1994年，我走進了柬埔寨的一個監獄，

and I met a 12-year-old boy

遇到了一個12歲的男孩,

who had been tortured

他被嚴刑拷打

and was denied access to counsel.

還被禁止獲得律師協助。

And as I looked into his eyes, I realized

我看著他的眼睛，我意識到，

that for the hundreds of letters I had written

我為政治犯寫了的

for political prisoners, that I would never have

數以百計的信件，但我不會

written a letter for him,

為他寫信，

because he was not a 12-year-old boy who

因為他不是一個

had done something important for anybody.

做了什麼重要事蹟的12歲男孩。

He was not a political prisoner.

他不是一個政治犯。

He was a 12-year-old boy who had

他是一個偷了一輛自行車的

stolen a bicycle.

12歲男孩。

What I also realized at that point was that

在那一刻我也意識到的是，

it was not only Cambodia, but

不僅是柬埔寨，

of the 113

但在113個

developing countries that torture,

發展中國家有酷刑的，

93 of these countries have all passed laws

其中有93個國家都有立法，

that say you have a right to a lawyer

宣稱你有權利尋求一個律師，

and you have a right not to be tortured.

你有不接受嚴刑的權力。

And what I recognized was that there was an

我意識到的是，有一個

incredible window of opportunity for us

令人難以置信的機會，

as a world community to come together

讓我們作為國際社會集合在一起，

and end torture as an investigative tool.

終結那些作為調查工具的酷刑。

We often think of torture as being

我們通常認為酷刑是作為

political torture or reserved for

政治酷刑或只是針對

just the worst, but, in fact,

最壞的人，但其實

95 percent of torture today

今天95％的酷刑，

is not for political prisoners.

並不是施加在政治犯身上。

It is for people who are

它被施加在那些活在

in broken-down legal systems,

不健全的法律制度裡的人們身上，

and unfortunately because torture is

而且不幸的是，因為酷刑是

the cheapest form of investigation --

最便宜的調查形式 --

it's cheaper than having a legal system,

它比的法律制度便宜，

cheaper than having a lawyer

比動用律師

and early access to counsel --

和早期的法律顧問還便宜 --

it is what happens most of the time.

所以大多數的情況下，酷刑便會發生。

I believe today that it is possible for us

我相信我們今天作為一個國際社會，

as a world community, if we make a decision,

如果我們作出決定，是有可能集合在一起，

to come together and end torture

在我們的有生之年結束

as an investigative tool in our lifetime,

以酷刑作為的調查工具，

but it will require three things.

但它需要三樣東西。

First is the training, empowerment,

首先是培訓，授權，

and connection of defenders worldwide.

並連結全世界的辯護律師。

The second is insuring that there is

第二個是要確保

systematic early access to counsel.

有一套提供早期法律顧問的制度。

And the third is commitment.

第三是承諾。

So in the year 2000,

在2000年，

I began to wonder,

我開始在想，

what if we came together?

如果我們集合一起會怎樣？

Could we do something

我們能為這93個國家

for these 93 countries?

做些什麼嗎？

And I founded International Bridges to Justice

我成立了〈國際司法橋樑組織〉,

which has a specific mission of

它有一個明確的任務，就是要

ending torture as an investigative tool

終結以酷刑作為調查工具，

and implementing due process rights

以及在這93個國家裡建置

in the 93 countries by placing trained lawyers

一套正當程序的權利， 其作法是透過

at an early stage in police stations

在警察局裡以及在法院上，

and in courtrooms.

安排訓練有素的律師。

My first experiences, though, did come

我的第一次經驗，

from Cambodia, and at the time I remember

是來自柬埔寨，當時我記得

first coming to Cambodia and there were,

第一次到柬埔寨，於1994年，

in 1994, still less than

在全國尚有

10 attorneys in the country because

不到10個律師，因為其他的律師

the Khmer Rouge had killed them all.

全都被赤柬殺害了。

And even 20 years later, there was only

甚至在20年後，國家依然

10 lawyers in the country, so consequently

僅有10個律師，所以

you'd walk into a prison and

當你走進一所監獄時

not only would you meet 12-year-old boys,

你不僅能遇到12歲的男孩，

you'd meet women and you'd say,

你還會遇到婦女，而當你問她們：

"Why are you here?" Women would say,

「為什麼你在這裡呢？」她們會說：

"Well I've been here for 10 years because

「嗯，我在這裡已經10年，

my husband committed a crime, but they can't find him."

因為我的丈夫犯了罪，但他們無法找到他。」

So it's just a place where there was no rule of law.

所以它只是一個沒有法治的地方。

The first group of defenders came together

我還記得, 第一批辯護律師

and I still remember, as I was training, I said,

聚集一起，當時我在做培訓工作，我就說：

"Okay, what do you do for an investigation?"

「好吧，你會怎樣做一個調查？」

And there was silence in the class, and finally

全班沉默着，

one woman stood up, [inaudible name],

最後一個女人站了起來，[聽不清楚的名字]，

and she said "Khrew," which means "teacher."

她說：「Khrew」，意即「老師」。

She said, "I have defended more than

她說：「我曾經為

a hundred people, and I've never had to do

一百多人辯護，, 但我從來沒有

any investigation,

做任何調查，

because they all come with confessions."

因為他們全都已經招認。」

And we talked about, as a class, the fact that

然後，我們在課堂上討論到

number one, the confessions

第一，那些供詞

might not be reliable, but number two,

可能不可信，但第二是

we did not want to encourage the police

我們不希望鼓勵警方

to keep doing this, especially

繼續這樣做，特別是

as it was now against the law.

因為現在它是違法的。

And it took a lot of courage for these

這些辯護律師花了

defenders to decide that they would

很大的勇氣才決定

begin to stand up and support each other

開始站出來並且互相支持

in implementing these laws.

來落實這些法律。

And I still remember the first cases where

我還記得第一案例裡，

they came, all 25 together, she would

他們25個一起來，

stand up, and they were in the back, and

她會站着，其他的都站在後面

they would support her, and the judges kept

並且會支持她，而法官不停地說：

saying, "No, no, no, no, we're going to do things

「不，不，不，不，我們要用以往相同的方式

the exact same way we've been doing them."

去做我們的事情。」

But one day the perfect case came, and it

有一天，一個完美的案件出現了，

was a woman who was a vegetable seller,

一個賣蔬菜的女人，

she was sitting outside of a house.

她坐在一所房子外面。

She said she actually saw the person

她說她真的看到了

run out who she thinks stole

她認為偷走了珠寶的人

whatever the jewelry was, but the police

從房子逃走出去，但警察來了

came, they got her, there was nothing on her.

卻逮捕了她，她身上一無所有。

She was pregnant at the time. She had

當時她身懷六甲。她身上有

cigarette burns on her. She'd miscarried.

被煙頭燙傷的傷疤，而且她流產了。

And when they brought her case

當他們把她的案件

to the judge, for the first time he stood up

拿來到法官前，他首次站了起來，

and he said, "Yes, there's no evidence

說：「是的，這裡沒有證據,

except for your torture confession

除了妳被逼供的招認，

and you will be released."

而妳將會被釋放。」

And the defenders began to take cases

而辯護律師開始一遍又一遍的

over and over again and

接受案件，

you will see, they have step by step began

你會看到，他們一步一步開始

to change the course of history in Cambodia.

在改變柬埔寨的歷史。

But Cambodia is not alone.

但柬埔寨並是唯一的例子。

I used to think, well is it Cambodia?

我常想，是柬埔寨嗎？

Or is it other countries?

抑或是其他國家呢？

But it is in so many countries.

但這樣的事情在如此多的國家發生。

In Burundi I walked into a prison and it wasn't

在布隆迪，我走進了監獄，這次不是

a 12-year-old boy, it was an 8-year-old boy

一個12歲的男孩，而是一個8歲的男孩

for stealing a mobile phone.

偷了一個手機。

Or a woman, I picked up her baby,

或是一個女人，我抱起她的寶寶，

really cute baby, I said "Your baby is so cute."

很可愛的寶寶，我說:「你的寶寶太可愛了。」

It wasn't a baby, she was three.

只不過那不是一個嬰兒，她已經三歲。

And she said "Yeah, but she's why I'm here,"

她說：「是啊，但她就是我在這裡的原因」,

because she was accused of stealing

因為她被指控竊取了

two diapers and an iron for her baby and

兩塊尿布和熨斗給她的嬰兒

still had been in prison.

並且仍然被困在獄中。

And when I walked up to the prison director,

當我走到監獄主管前，

I said, "You've got to let her out.

我說，「你一定要把她放出來。

A judge would let her out."

法官會放她出來。」

And he said, "Okay, we can talk about it,

他說，「好吧，我們可以談談這件事，

but look at my prison. Eighty percent

但看看我的監獄。在這裡的

of the two thousand people here

兩千人中百分之八十

are without a lawyer. What can we do?"

沒有律師，我們可以做些什麼？」

So lawyers began to courageously

因此，律師開始勇敢地

stand up together to organize a system

站出來，共同組織一套制度，

where they can take cases.

在那裡他們可以接案。

But we realized that it's not only the training

但我們意識到，重要的不僅是

of the lawyers, but the connection

律師的訓練，而是律師們之間

of the lawyers that makes a difference.

的聯繫。

For example, in Cambodia, it was that

例如，在柬埔寨，[清不見的名字]

[inaudible name] did not go alone

不是單槍匹馬，

but she had 24 lawyers with her

她有24個律師

who stood up together. And in the same way,

與她一起爭取。同樣地，

in China, they always tell me,

在中國，他們常常告訴我，

"It's like a fresh wind in the desert

「當我們能走到一起,

when we can come together."

這就像在沙漠中的清風。」

Or in Zimbabwe, where I remember Innocent,

或在辛巴威，我記得「無辜」,

after coming out of a prison where everybody

在一個監獄裡走出來, 當每個人

stood up and said, "I've been here

都站出來，並說:「我在這裡

for one year, eight years, 12 years

已經一年，八年，十二年

without a lawyer,"

沒有律師」,

he came and we had a training together

他來和我們一同訓練,

and he said, "I have heard it said" --

他說：「我聽到有人說」--

because he had heard people mumbling

因為他聽說有人喃喃自語

and grumbling -- "I have heard it said that

和抱怨 -- 「我聽有人說，

we cannot help to create justice

我們不能不建立公平公正

because we do not have the resources."

因為我們沒有資源。」

And then he said, "But I want you to know

然後他說，「但我想讓你知道，

that the lack of resources

資源的匱乏

is never an excuse for injustice."

不應該是一個不公不義存在的藉口。」

And with that, he successfully

而就這樣，他已成功地

organized 68 lawyers who have been

組織了個68律師

systematically taking the cases.

有系統地接案。

The key that we see, though, is training

我們發現，關鍵是訓練,

and then early access.

以及早期的法律顧問服務。

I was recently in Egypt, and was inspired

最近我在埃及，並獲得了靈感，

to meet with another group of lawyers,

去會見另一組律師，

and what they told me is that they said,

他們告訴我，

"Hey, look, we don't have police

「嗨，看看，現在

on the streets now. The police are

我們的街道上沒有警察。

one of the main reasons why we had

警察是我們掀起革命的

the revolution. They were torturing everybody

主要原因之一。他們總是在

all the time."

對人動刑。」

And I said, "But there's been tens of millions

我說:「但最近不是有數千萬元

of dollars that have recently gone in

去發展這裡的

to the development of the legal system here.

法律制度嗎?

What's going on?"

究竟發生了什麼事？」

I met with one of the development agencies,

我會見了其中一個發展機構，

and they were training prosecutors

他們正在培訓檢察官

and judges, which is the normal bias,

和法官，

as opposed to defenders.

而不是培訓辯護律師，而這是常見的錯誤作法。

And they showed me a manual which

他們給我看了一本手冊，

actually was an excellent manual.

實際上是一本很好的手冊。

I said, "I'm gonna copy this."

我說：「我要去複製一份。」

It had everything in it. Lawyers can come

它包含了一切。律師可以

at the police station. It was perfect.

前往派出所。它是完美的。

Prosecutors were perfectly trained.

檢察官得到了完整的訓練。

But I said to them, "I just have one question,

但我對他們說:「我只有一個問題，

which is, by the time that everybody got to

那便是，當每個人都到了

the prosecutor's office, what had happened to them?"

檢察官的辦公室，他們會發生什麼？」

And after a pause, they said,

停頓一會兒後，他們說:

"They had been tortured."

「他們遭受過酷刑。」

So the pieces are,

因此，不僅是

not only the training of the lawyers, but

律師的培訓，我們還要找到一種方法，

us finding a way to systematically implement

有系統地實施早期法律顧問服務，

early access to counsel, because they are

因為那是

the safeguard in the system

身處凌遲拷打中的人們

for people who are being tortured.

唯一的保障。

And as I tell you this, I'm also aware of the

正如我告訴你，我也知道

fact that it sounds like, "Oh, okay, it sounds

事實上它聽起來像，「哦，好吧，這聽起來

like we could do it, but can we really do it?"

像我們做得到的，但我們真的可以做到嗎？」

Because it sounds big.

因為它聽起來像是一個大工程。

And there are many reasons why I believe it's possible.

但有許多原因讓我相信這是可能的。

The first reason is the people on the ground

第一個原因是，實際在這一行的人會

who find ways of creating miracles

因為他們的承諾而找到

because of their commitment.

創造奇蹟的方法。

It's not only Innocent, who I told you about

不僅是「無辜」，我告訴你

in Zimbabwe, but defenders all over the world

在辛巴威的人，但在世界各地。

who are looking for these pieces.

搜尋着這些方法的辯護律師。

We have a program called JusticeMakers,

我們有一個計畫稱為JusticeMakers，

and we realized there are people that are

我們意識到有人是勇敢

courageous and want to do things, but

和想做點事情，但我們

how can we support them?

如何支持他們呢？

So it's an online contest where it's only

所以它是一個網路競賽，

five thousand dollars if you come up with

如果你能提出

and innovative way of implementing justice.

創新的方式來實施司法，就有五千美元獎金。

And there are 30 JusticeMakers

在世界各地

throughout the world, from Sri Lanka

有30個JusticeMakers，從斯里蘭卡，

to Swaziland to the DRC, who with

到史瓦濟蘭，到剛果，

five thousand dollars do amazing things,

用五千美元就可以做到了不起的事情，

through SMS programs,

通過 SMS程序，

through paralegal programs,

通過法律輔導計劃，

through whatever they can do.

通過他們可以做的任何事。

And it's not only these JusticeMakers,

不僅是這些 JusticeMakers，

but people we courageously see

還有我們看到的人勇敢地

figure out who their networks are

找出他們的人際網絡，

and how they can move it forward.

以及他們如何能繼續發展它。

So in China, for instance, great laws

例如，在中國，偉大的法律被通過，

came out where it says police cannot

禁止警察對人動刑，

torture people or they will be punished.

否則將予以懲處。

And I was sitting side by side with one of our

而且，有一次我跟我們一位很勇敢的

very courageous lawyers, and said,

律師坐在一起，說:

"How can we get this out? How can we

「我們怎樣才能把這個理念宣揚出去呢？

make sure that this is implemented?

我們如何才能確保它被施行呢？

This is fantastic." And he said to me,

這是太棒了。」他對我說:

"Well, do you have money?" And I said,

「那麼，你有沒有錢？」我說:

"No." And he said, "That's okay,

「沒有。」他說:「這沒關係，

we can still figure it out."

我們仍然可以想想辦法。」

And on December 4, he organized

在12月4日，他組織了

three thousand members

3千個青年共產

of the Youth Communist League,

主義青年團的成員，

from 14 of the top law schools,

從14個頂尖的法律學校，

who organized themselves, developed

他們組織起來，製作海報

posters with the new laws, and went

宣傳新的法律，並去派出所，

to the police stations and began what he says

並開始了他稱為的一個合法

is a non-violent legal revolution

非暴力的革命

to protect citizen rights.

以保護公民權利。

So I talked about the fact that we need

我談過我們需要

to train and support defenders.

培養和支持辯護律師。

We need to systematically implement

我們需要有系統地提供

early access to counsel.

早期法律顧問服務。

But the third and most important thing is that

但第三以及最重要的是，

we make a commitment to this.

我們要對此作出承諾。

And people often say to me, "You know,

人們常常對我說:「你要知道，

this is great, but it's wildly idealistic.

這是偉大的，但它是瘋狂地理想化。

Never going to happen."

永遠也不會發生。」

And the reason that I think that

我認為這些話很

those words are interesting is because

有趣的原因是，

those were the same kinds of words

因為是同樣像這些話,

that were used for people who decided

使用在決定了將結束奴隸制的人，

they would end slavery, or end apartheid.

或結束種族隔離的人。

It began with a small group of people

它開始於一小群

who decided they would commit.

下定承諾的人。

Now, there's one of our favorite poems

現在，有一篇我們辯護律師們最喜歡的詩，

from the defenders, which they share

在他們之間彼此分享著，

from each other, is:

寫道：

"Take courage friends, the road is often long,

「朋友, 鼓起勇氣，這條路總是漫長的，

the path is never clear,

路徑永遠不會是明確的，

and the stakes are very high,

賭注是非常高的，

but deep down, you are not alone."

但內心深處，你並不孤獨。」

And I believe that if we can come together

我相信，如果我們能團結在一起，

as a world community to support not only

作為國際社會不僅支持

defenders, but also everyone in the system

辯護律師，以及

who is looking towards it,

所有指望這套系統的每個人，

we can end torture as an investigative tool.

我們可以結束酷刑作為一項調查工具。

I end always, because I'm sure the questions are --

我總是以這個結束，因為我敢肯定問題是 --

and I'd be happy to talk to you

我很樂意在任何時候

at any point -- "But what can I really do?"

與你談談 -- 「但我真的可以做些什麼呢？」

Well, I would say this. First of all,

好吧，我會說。首先，

you know what you can do. But second of all,

你知道你可以做些什麼。但第二，

I would leave you with the story of Vishna,

我最後跟你們分享Vishna的故事，

who actually was my inspiration

它是我發起

for starting International Bridges to Justice.

〈國際司法橋樑〉的靈感。

Vishna was a 4-year-old boy when I met him

當我與Vishna會面時，他是一個

who was born in a Cambodian prison

在柬埔寨幹丹省監獄出生的

in Kandal Province. But because he was

4歲的男孩。但因為他是在

born in the prison, everybody loved him,

監獄出生，每個人都愛他，

including the guards, so he was the only one

包括警衛，所以他是唯一

who was allowed to come

一個被允許

in and out of the bars.

進進出出監獄的人。

So, you know, there's bars. And by the time

所以，你知道的，監獄有金屬柵欄。

that Vishna was getting bigger,

當Vishna長大之後，

which means what gets bigger? Your head gets bigger.

成長意味著什麼變大？你的頭變得更大。

So he would come to the first bar,

他會來到第一條攔，

the second bar and then the third bar,

第二條和第三條，

and then really slowly move his head

然後真的慢慢地移動他的頭部，

so he could fit through, and come back,

使他能穿過去，然後回來，

third, second, first. And he would

第三，第二，第一。

grab my pinkie, because what he wanted

他會拉我的小指，因為他每天想做的事

to do every day is he wanted to go visit.

是他想去探訪。

You know, he never quite made it to

你知道，他每天從來沒有

all of them every day, but he wanted to visit

完全探訪所有人，但他希望探訪

all 156 prisoners. And I would lift him,

所有156名犯人。我會舉起他，

and he would put his fingers through.

他就會把他的手指通過。

Or if they were dark cells, it was like iron

或者，如果他們是在黑暗的牢房，

corrugated, and he would put his fingers through.

如波紋鐵，他會把他的手指伸過去。

And most of the prisoners said that he was

大多數囚犯說，

their greatest joy and their sunshine, and they

他是他們最大的快樂和他們的陽光，

looked forward to him. And I was like,

他們期待著他來探望。我當時想，

here's Vishna. He's a 4-year-old boy.

這裡站著Vishna。他是一名4歲男童。

He was born in a prison with almost nothing,

他出生在幾乎一無所有，

no material goods, but he had a sense of

沒有物質的一所監獄，但他體悟道他有

his own heroic journey, which I believe

他自己的英雄之旅，我相信

we are all born into. He said,

我們生來都有這種感覺。他說:

"Probably I can't do everything.

「可能我不能做到一切。

But I'm one. I can do something.

但我是一個人。我可以做到一些事情。

And I will do the one thing that I can do."

所以我會做我可以做到的一件事情。」

So I thank you for having the prophetic

因此，我感謝你預言般的

imagination to imagine the shaping

想像力，去與我們一起

of a new world with us together,

想像塑造一個新的世界，

and invite you into this journey with us.

並邀請你們參與我們的旅程。

Thank you.

謝謝。

(Applause)

(掌聲)

Thank you.

謝謝。

(Applause)

(掌聲)

Thank you.

謝謝。

(Applause)

(掌聲)