Karen Tse: How to stop torture

43,445 views ・ 2011-12-22

TED


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翻译人员: Miao Li 校对人员: Ting Huang
00:16
In 1994, I walked into a prison in Cambodia,
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1994年我走进柬埔寨的一所监狱
00:20
and I met a 12-year-old boy
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遇见了一个12岁的男孩
00:23
who had been tortured
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他被刑讯逼供
00:25
and was denied access to counsel.
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并且禁止接触律师
00:27
And as I looked into his eyes, I realized
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当我看着他的眼睛时,我意识到
00:29
that for the hundreds of letters I had written
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尽管我曾经写过几百封
00:31
for political prisoners, that I would never have
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给政治犯争取权利的信,我恐怕不会
00:34
written a letter for him,
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给他也写一封
00:36
because he was not a 12-year-old boy who
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因为这个12岁的孩子不是一个
00:38
had done something important for anybody.
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为别人做出过重要贡献的人
00:40
He was not a political prisoner.
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他不是政治犯
00:42
He was a 12-year-old boy who had
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他12岁成为囚徒
00:44
stolen a bicycle.
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只因为偷了一辆自行车
00:46
What I also realized at that point was that
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当时我还意识到
00:48
it was not only Cambodia, but
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不仅仅在柬埔寨
00:50
of the 113
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而且在113个
00:52
developing countries that torture,
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存在刑讯逼供的发展中国家里
00:54
93 of these countries have all passed laws
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已经有93个国家通过了法律
00:57
that say you have a right to a lawyer
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宣布其公民有权聘请律师
00:59
and you have a right not to be tortured.
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而且有权不受逼供。
01:02
And what I recognized was that there was an
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我认为我们有一个
01:04
incredible window of opportunity for us
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极好的机会
01:06
as a world community to come together
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将整个国际社会联合起来
01:09
and end torture as an investigative tool.
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制止刑讯逼供
01:12
We often think of torture as being
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我们时常把逼供看做
01:14
political torture or reserved for
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政治行为或者说
01:16
just the worst, but, in fact,
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专门用于应对最坏的情况,可是其实
01:19
95 percent of torture today
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当今95%的逼供
01:21
is not for political prisoners.
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并不针对政治犯
01:23
It is for people who are
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而是针对生活在
01:25
in broken-down legal systems,
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漏洞百出的法律体系下的人们
01:27
and unfortunately because torture is
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不幸的是刑讯逼供
01:29
the cheapest form of investigation --
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是成本最低的审讯方法--
01:31
it's cheaper than having a legal system,
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比建立一个完善的法制的成本要低得多
01:33
cheaper than having a lawyer
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也比请律师
01:35
and early access to counsel --
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和寻求前期法律咨询要便宜得多
01:37
it is what happens most of the time.
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大多数时候都是这样
01:39
I believe today that it is possible for us
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我相信今天
01:41
as a world community, if we make a decision,
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如果我们团结起整个国际社会,共同作出一个决定
01:44
to come together and end torture
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来制止刑讯逼供
01:46
as an investigative tool in our lifetime,
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我们有可能在有生之年达成目标
01:49
but it will require three things.
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但是有三个前提
01:51
First is the training, empowerment,
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首先是给予
01:54
and connection of defenders worldwide.
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全世界的法律援助者足够的训练、支持与帮助
01:57
The second is insuring that there is
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第二是确保
02:00
systematic early access to counsel.
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程序化的前期法律咨询能够落实
02:03
And the third is commitment.
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其三就是承诺和责任
02:06
So in the year 2000,
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在2000年
02:08
I began to wonder,
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我开始思考
02:11
what if we came together?
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如果我们真的联合起来会怎样?
02:14
Could we do something
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我们能否做点什么
02:16
for these 93 countries?
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来帮帮这93个国家?
02:18
And I founded International Bridges to Justice
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于是我成立了一个叫“国际正义桥”的机构
02:20
which has a specific mission of
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这个机构有一个特殊的任务
02:22
ending torture as an investigative tool
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那就是阻止刑讯逼供
02:25
and implementing due process rights
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维护正当的法律权益
02:27
in the 93 countries by placing trained lawyers
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我们在上述93个国家组织了一批训练有素的律师
02:30
at an early stage in police stations
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在案件审理早期就前往警察局
02:32
and in courtrooms.
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和法院
02:34
My first experiences, though, did come
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而我最初的经验
02:36
from Cambodia, and at the time I remember
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都来自柬埔寨,我记得
02:39
first coming to Cambodia and there were,
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第一次去那里时,是1994年
02:41
in 1994, still less than
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整个国家
02:43
10 attorneys in the country because
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只有不到10个律师,因为
02:45
the Khmer Rouge had killed them all.
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红色高棉运动几乎把他们杀光了
02:47
And even 20 years later, there was only
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哪怕是20年之后
02:49
10 lawyers in the country, so consequently
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全国也只有10个律师,因此
02:51
you'd walk into a prison and
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当你走进一所监狱
02:53
not only would you meet 12-year-old boys,
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你不仅会遇到12岁的小孩
02:55
you'd meet women and you'd say,
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还会遇到女人,然后你问
02:57
"Why are you here?" Women would say,
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“你为什么被关进来?”女人们会说
02:59
"Well I've been here for 10 years because
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“我被关了10年了,就因为
03:01
my husband committed a crime, but they can't find him."
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我丈夫犯了罪,警察抓不到他。”
03:03
So it's just a place where there was no rule of law.
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所以柬埔寨根本没有法制可言
03:06
The first group of defenders came together
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第一个法律援助团队组建起来后,
03:08
and I still remember, as I was training, I said,
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我记得在对他们进行训练的时候,我说
03:10
"Okay, what do you do for an investigation?"
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“好了,告诉我审讯的时候你们怎么做?”
03:12
And there was silence in the class, and finally
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全班都静悄悄的,最终
03:14
one woman stood up, [inaudible name],
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一个女人站起来
03:16
and she said "Khrew," which means "teacher."
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她说“克鲁”,就是柬埔寨语“老师”的意思
03:19
She said, "I have defended more than
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她说:“我曾经
03:22
a hundred people, and I've never had to do
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帮一百多人辩护,但我从来都不用
03:25
any investigation,
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对他们审讯
03:27
because they all come with confessions."
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因为他们来了之后就会主动坦白。“
03:29
And we talked about, as a class, the fact that
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然后我们全班一起讨论了一些事实:
03:32
number one, the confessions
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第一:他们主动坦白的信息
03:34
might not be reliable, but number two,
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不一定可靠,但是第二:
03:36
we did not want to encourage the police
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我们不想鼓励警方
03:38
to keep doing this, especially
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继续进行刑讯逼供,尤其是
03:40
as it was now against the law.
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现在这是违反法律的
03:42
And it took a lot of courage for these
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这些律师们需要很多勇气
03:44
defenders to decide that they would
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才决定他们要
03:46
begin to stand up and support each other
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站出来互相协助
03:48
in implementing these laws.
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确保法律不是空文
03:51
And I still remember the first cases where
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我还记得最早的那些案件中
03:53
they came, all 25 together, she would
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律师们一共25个人,那个女律师
03:55
stand up, and they were in the back, and
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站起来,其他人在她身后
03:57
they would support her, and the judges kept
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支持她,而法官
03:59
saying, "No, no, no, no, we're going to do things
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不断地说:”不不不不,我们要
04:01
the exact same way we've been doing them."
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完全按照以前做事的程序做。“
04:03
But one day the perfect case came, and it
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但是有一天出现了个完美的案件
04:05
was a woman who was a vegetable seller,
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被告是一个卖菜的女人
04:07
she was sitting outside of a house.
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她坐在一间房子外面
04:09
She said she actually saw the person
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她说自己的确看到
04:12
run out who she thinks stole
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一个人跑出来,她认为这个人偷了
04:14
whatever the jewelry was, but the police
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不知是个什么珠宝,但警察
04:16
came, they got her, there was nothing on her.
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来了,抓了她,她身上什么都没有
04:18
She was pregnant at the time. She had
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当时还怀孕了。她身上
04:20
cigarette burns on her. She'd miscarried.
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有烟头烫伤的痕迹。最终不幸流产了
04:22
And when they brought her case
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当她的案子
04:24
to the judge, for the first time he stood up
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刚被递交给法官时,法官就站起来说
04:26
and he said, "Yes, there's no evidence
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“的确,
04:28
except for your torture confession
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除了逼供获得的供词外没有其他证据
04:30
and you will be released."
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你将被释放。”
04:32
And the defenders began to take cases
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于是我们的律师开始受理这些案件
04:34
over and over again and
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反反复复地做
04:36
you will see, they have step by step began
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而且他们已经开始一步步地
04:39
to change the course of history in Cambodia.
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改变柬埔寨的历史了。
04:42
But Cambodia is not alone.
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但并不只是柬埔寨是这样的
04:44
I used to think, well is it Cambodia?
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我曾经想,是不是只有柬埔寨虐囚呢?
04:46
Or is it other countries?
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还是其他国家也这样?
04:48
But it is in so many countries.
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真的还有很多国家。
04:51
In Burundi I walked into a prison and it wasn't
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在布隆迪我又走进一间监狱,这次
04:53
a 12-year-old boy, it was an 8-year-old boy
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遇见的不是个12岁的男孩,而是一个8岁的男孩
04:56
for stealing a mobile phone.
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因为偷了一个手机被捕入狱
04:58
Or a woman, I picked up her baby,
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或者一个女人;我抱起她的孩子,
05:00
really cute baby, I said "Your baby is so cute."
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真的很可爱,我说:”你孩子真讨人喜欢。“
05:03
It wasn't a baby, she was three.
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那不是个婴儿,她已经3岁了。
05:05
And she said "Yeah, but she's why I'm here,"
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母亲告诉我:"是啊,就是因为她我才进来的”
05:07
because she was accused of stealing
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因为这个母亲为了孩子
05:09
two diapers and an iron for her baby and
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偷了两片纸尿布和一个熨斗而获罪
05:11
still had been in prison.
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仍被关在监狱里
05:13
And when I walked up to the prison director,
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我找到监狱的主管
05:15
I said, "You've got to let her out.
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说:“你该放她出去。
05:17
A judge would let her out."
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法官会释放她的。”
05:19
And he said, "Okay, we can talk about it,
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他说:“好啊,我们可以商量一下,
05:21
but look at my prison. Eighty percent
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不过看看这座监狱,这里面
05:23
of the two thousand people here
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两千多人中的百分之八十
05:25
are without a lawyer. What can we do?"
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都没有律师。我们该怎么办?”
05:27
So lawyers began to courageously
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于是我们的律师们开始勇敢地
05:29
stand up together to organize a system
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站出来组织一个系统
05:32
where they can take cases.
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以便接这些案子。
05:34
But we realized that it's not only the training
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可是我们发现不光是律师的素质训练
05:36
of the lawyers, but the connection
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更重要的是他们的人际关系
05:38
of the lawyers that makes a difference.
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决定事情的进展。
05:40
For example, in Cambodia, it was that
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比如说在柬埔寨,
05:42
[inaudible name] did not go alone
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某人不是自己孤身上法庭
05:44
but she had 24 lawyers with her
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而是有24个律师
05:46
who stood up together. And in the same way,
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合力帮助他。同样的
05:48
in China, they always tell me,
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在中国,他们告诉我
05:50
"It's like a fresh wind in the desert
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“我们一起合作时,
05:52
when we can come together."
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感觉就像沙漠上来了凉风一样。”
05:54
Or in Zimbabwe, where I remember Innocent,
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在津巴布韦,我想起了英诺森
05:56
after coming out of a prison where everybody
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从一间监狱出来之后--那里的每个人
05:58
stood up and said, "I've been here
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都站起来说:“我在这儿
06:00
for one year, eight years, 12 years
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一年,八年,或者十二年
06:02
without a lawyer,"
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都没有律师,”--
06:04
he came and we had a training together
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英诺森到了我们这里,一起参加培训
06:06
and he said, "I have heard it said" --
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他讲:“我听人这样说过”--
06:09
because he had heard people mumbling
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因为他听过很多这样的嘀咕、抱怨--
06:11
and grumbling -- "I have heard it said that
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“我听别人说
06:13
we cannot help to create justice
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我们没法儿建立司法公正
06:16
because we do not have the resources."
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因为我们缺乏资源。”
06:18
And then he said, "But I want you to know
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他又说:“但是我想让你明白
06:20
that the lack of resources
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缺少资源
06:23
is never an excuse for injustice."
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永远不是不公正的借口。"
06:25
And with that, he successfully
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带着这份信念,他成功地
06:27
organized 68 lawyers who have been
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组织了68名律师
06:30
systematically taking the cases.
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这些人一直在成系统地接这样的案子。
06:32
The key that we see, though, is training
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我们发现重点在于培训
06:35
and then early access.
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并且给人们尽早接触律师的机会
06:37
I was recently in Egypt, and was inspired
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我最近在埃及,突发奇想
06:39
to meet with another group of lawyers,
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和另一群律师碰了面
06:41
and what they told me is that they said,
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他们告诉我
06:43
"Hey, look, we don't have police
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”瞧瞧,我们的街上现在
06:45
on the streets now. The police are
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没有警察了。
06:47
one of the main reasons why we had
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警察是造成这次革命的主要原因之一
06:49
the revolution. They were torturing everybody
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他们滥用刑罚,
06:51
all the time."
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一直如此。“
06:53
And I said, "But there's been tens of millions
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我不解道:”可是前些时候已经
06:55
of dollars that have recently gone in
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有几千万美元被用于
06:57
to the development of the legal system here.
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发展法律系统了。
06:59
What's going on?"
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到底发生了什么?“
07:01
I met with one of the development agencies,
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我走访了一个法律发展部门
07:04
and they were training prosecutors
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他们当时在培训检察官
07:06
and judges, which is the normal bias,
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和法官,这就是他们通常的偏见,
07:08
as opposed to defenders.
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不培训辩护律师。
07:10
And they showed me a manual which
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他们给我看了一个小册子
07:12
actually was an excellent manual.
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这个东西很棒
07:14
I said, "I'm gonna copy this."
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我说:”我想复印一下."
07:16
It had everything in it. Lawyers can come
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这里面涵盖了所有规定:律师被允许
07:18
at the police station. It was perfect.
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到警察局来。太棒了。
07:20
Prosecutors were perfectly trained.
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上面说检察官也会接受完善的培训。
07:22
But I said to them, "I just have one question,
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我对他们说,“我只有一个问题想问
07:24
which is, by the time that everybody got to
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就是嫌疑人来到
07:26
the prosecutor's office, what had happened to them?"
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检查官办公室之前,他们会经历什么?”
07:28
And after a pause, they said,
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稍做停顿之后,他们说,
07:30
"They had been tortured."
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“他们得吃点儿苦头。”
07:32
So the pieces are,
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所以问题的答案
07:34
not only the training of the lawyers, but
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不光是培训律师,而且
07:36
us finding a way to systematically implement
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在于找到办法系统地保证
07:39
early access to counsel, because they are
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嫌疑人尽早接触到律师,因为他们是
07:42
the safeguard in the system
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系统中的保护措施,
07:44
for people who are being tortured.
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保护被刑讯逼供的人。
07:47
And as I tell you this, I'm also aware of the
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我在跟你们说这些的时候,我知道
07:49
fact that it sounds like, "Oh, okay, it sounds
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这些听起来好像是:“哦,好啊,
07:51
like we could do it, but can we really do it?"
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听起来我们像是能够解决问题了?可是真的能吗?”
07:54
Because it sounds big.
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给人感觉理想太大了
07:56
And there are many reasons why I believe it's possible.
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但是我有很多理由相信它完全有可能实现。
07:59
The first reason is the people on the ground
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第一个理由是在基层做事的人们
08:02
who find ways of creating miracles
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他们独辟蹊径地在创造奇迹
08:05
because of their commitment.
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因为他们的信念和坚持
08:07
It's not only Innocent, who I told you about
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不只是我告诉你们的那个津巴布韦的英诺森
08:10
in Zimbabwe, but defenders all over the world
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而是来自全世界的很多辩护律师
08:13
who are looking for these pieces.
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都在为寻找答案努力
08:16
We have a program called JusticeMakers,
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我们有一个项目叫“公正缔造者”
08:19
and we realized there are people that are
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从中我们发现很多人
08:21
courageous and want to do things, but
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都有勇气并且愿意做事,但是
08:23
how can we support them?
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我们如何支持他们呢?
08:25
So it's an online contest where it's only
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所以有了一个网上的竞赛:
08:27
five thousand dollars if you come up with
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奖励是5000美元,如果你想出一个
08:29
and innovative way of implementing justice.
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创造性的维护司法公正的方式。
08:31
And there are 30 JusticeMakers
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我们有30个“公正缔造者”
08:33
throughout the world, from Sri Lanka
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来自世界各地,比如斯里兰卡
08:35
to Swaziland to the DRC, who with
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史瓦济兰,刚果(金)
08:38
five thousand dollars do amazing things,
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他们用5000美元做出了惊人的贡献
08:41
through SMS programs,
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通过短讯息服务,
08:43
through paralegal programs,
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通过律师助理训练
08:45
through whatever they can do.
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通过他们能用的各种方式。
08:47
And it's not only these JusticeMakers,
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而且不仅是这些“公正缔造者”
08:51
but people we courageously see
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而且我们看见有的人很勇敢地
08:53
figure out who their networks are
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利用他们的关系
08:56
and how they can move it forward.
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促进事情的发展。
08:58
So in China, for instance, great laws
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比如在中国,有这样的立法
09:00
came out where it says police cannot
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说警察不能
09:03
torture people or they will be punished.
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虐待嫌疑人,否则他们将受到处罚
09:06
And I was sitting side by side with one of our
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当时我坐在一个
09:09
very courageous lawyers, and said,
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很有勇气的律师旁边,我说
09:12
"How can we get this out? How can we
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“我们该怎么怎么办?怎么才能
09:14
make sure that this is implemented?
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保证这些法律被执行?
09:16
This is fantastic." And he said to me,
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它们都很不错。”他就对我说
09:18
"Well, do you have money?" And I said,
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“你有钱吗?”我说
09:20
"No." And he said, "That's okay,
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“没有”。 然后他说,“没关系,
09:22
we can still figure it out."
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我们还能想办法。”
09:24
And on December 4, he organized
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12月4日,他组织了
09:26
three thousand members
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3000名
09:28
of the Youth Communist League,
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共青团员
09:30
from 14 of the top law schools,
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来自14个中国最好的法学院
09:32
who organized themselves, developed
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他们自己组织起来制作了
09:34
posters with the new laws, and went
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关于这些立法的宣传画
09:36
to the police stations and began what he says
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来到警察局,开始了他所宣称的
09:38
is a non-violent legal revolution
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一次非暴力的法制革命
09:41
to protect citizen rights.
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以保护公民权利。
09:44
So I talked about the fact that we need
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所以我刚才讲到我们需要
09:46
to train and support defenders.
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培训和支持辩护律师
09:48
We need to systematically implement
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并且我们要系统化地保证
09:50
early access to counsel.
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嫌疑人尽早接触律师。
09:52
But the third and most important thing is that
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而第三个也是最重要的事情
09:54
we make a commitment to this.
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就是我们坚持这项事业。
09:56
And people often say to me, "You know,
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人们经常对我说:”你知道的,
09:58
this is great, but it's wildly idealistic.
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这个真的很好,只是太过理想主义了。
10:00
Never going to happen."
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恐怕不能实现。”
10:02
And the reason that I think that
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我认为这话很有意思
10:04
those words are interesting is because
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它有意思就因为
10:06
those were the same kinds of words
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它被说过无数次了
10:08
that were used for people who decided
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被那些决定
10:10
they would end slavery, or end apartheid.
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废除奴隶制、或者种族隔离的人都用过。
10:12
It began with a small group of people
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每次都是一小群人开始
10:14
who decided they would commit.
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他们决定他们能坚持
10:16
Now, there's one of our favorite poems
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这里有一首
10:18
from the defenders, which they share
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我们的律师们最喜欢的诗,他们互相之间
10:20
from each other, is:
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交换诗作
10:22
"Take courage friends, the road is often long,
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“鼓起勇气吧朋友们,尽管前路漫漫,
10:24
the path is never clear,
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方向难辨,
10:26
and the stakes are very high,
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责任重大
10:28
but deep down, you are not alone."
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但心底里你并不孤单。”
10:30
And I believe that if we can come together
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我相信如果我们能团结起来
10:33
as a world community to support not only
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以国际社会的名义支持
10:35
defenders, but also everyone in the system
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不仅律师们,而且法律系统中
10:38
who is looking towards it,
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的所有关注者
10:40
we can end torture as an investigative tool.
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我们就能制止刑讯逼供
10:43
I end always, because I'm sure the questions are --
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我知道人们还是有疑问
10:45
and I'd be happy to talk to you
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我也很乐意跟你们多聊聊
10:47
at any point -- "But what can I really do?"
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任何时候都行--我知道人们会问:“我到底能做什么?”
10:49
Well, I would say this. First of all,
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我会告诉你们,首先,
10:51
you know what you can do. But second of all,
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你知道你能干什么。其次
10:53
I would leave you with the story of Vishna,
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我想告诉你们一个叫维什那的孩子的故事
10:55
who actually was my inspiration
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他给了我灵感
10:58
for starting International Bridges to Justice.
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让我组建了”国际公正桥“组织
11:00
Vishna was a 4-year-old boy when I met him
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我见到维什那时他四岁
11:03
who was born in a Cambodian prison
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他生在一个柬埔寨的监狱里
11:05
in Kandal Province. But because he was
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在甘丹省。因为他
11:08
born in the prison, everybody loved him,
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生在监狱,那儿每个人都喜欢他
11:10
including the guards, so he was the only one
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包括监狱的守卫,所以他是唯一一个
11:12
who was allowed to come
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被允许
11:14
in and out of the bars.
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从栅栏间进出的人
11:16
So, you know, there's bars. And by the time
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你们也知道,那地方有很多栅栏
11:18
that Vishna was getting bigger,
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当维什那长大了一些的时候
11:20
which means what gets bigger? Your head gets bigger.
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他的脑袋变大了
11:22
So he would come to the first bar,
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所以当他钻进第一个栅栏
11:24
the second bar and then the third bar,
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然后第二个、第三个栅栏
11:26
and then really slowly move his head
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然后慢慢挪动他的头
11:28
so he could fit through, and come back,
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他还能进去,然后再回来
11:30
third, second, first. And he would
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第三个、第二个、第一个,接着他就
11:32
grab my pinkie, because what he wanted
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抓住我的小拇指,他就喜欢这样
11:34
to do every day is he wanted to go visit.
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每天在监狱里串门
11:36
You know, he never quite made it to
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尽管他没办法每天
11:38
all of them every day, but he wanted to visit
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拜访每一个人,但他真的想看到
11:40
all 156 prisoners. And I would lift him,
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所有156个囚犯。我会把他抱起来
11:42
and he would put his fingers through.
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然后他把手指放进那个小缝隙里
11:44
Or if they were dark cells, it was like iron
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有时牢房是暗室
11:46
corrugated, and he would put his fingers through.
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有的地方是瓦楞铁板,他就把手纸伸进缝隙里
11:48
And most of the prisoners said that he was
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大部分囚犯都说
11:50
their greatest joy and their sunshine, and they
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他是他们最大的快乐
11:52
looked forward to him. And I was like,
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他们期待着见到他。我就想
11:54
here's Vishna. He's a 4-year-old boy.
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维什那,一个四岁的孩子
11:56
He was born in a prison with almost nothing,
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生在监狱里,一无所有
11:58
no material goods, but he had a sense of
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没有任何物质享受,但是他有一种
12:00
his own heroic journey, which I believe
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对自身英雄之旅的把握,我相信
12:02
we are all born into. He said,
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我们天生都有。他说
12:04
"Probably I can't do everything.
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“可能我无法做到一切
12:06
But I'm one. I can do something.
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但是能出一份力。
12:08
And I will do the one thing that I can do."
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我就把我能做的做了。”
12:10
So I thank you for having the prophetic
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所以我谢谢你们
12:12
imagination to imagine the shaping
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与我们共同畅想
12:15
of a new world with us together,
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一个更美好的世界
12:17
and invite you into this journey with us.
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也邀请你们与我们同行。
12:19
Thank you.
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谢谢。
12:21
(Applause)
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(掌声)
12:29
Thank you.
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谢谢。
12:31
(Applause)
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(掌声)
12:33
Thank you.
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谢谢。
12:35
(Applause)
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(掌声)

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