Karen Tse: How to stop torture

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In 1994, I walked into a prison in Cambodia,

1994, ušla sam u zatvor u Kambodži

and I met a 12-year-old boy

i upoznala 12-godišnjeg dječaka

who had been tortured

koji je mučen

and was denied access to counsel.

i kojem nije dozvoljen pristup savjetniku.

And as I looked into his eyes, I realized

Kad sam pogledala u njegove oči, shvatila sam da,

that for the hundreds of letters I had written

iako sam napisala stotine pisama

for political prisoners, that I would never have

za političke zatvorenike, nikad ne bih napisala

written a letter for him,

pismo za njega,

because he was not a 12-year-old boy who

budući on nije bio 12-godišnjak koji je

had done something important for anybody.

uradio nešto važno za nekoga.

He was not a political prisoner.

Nije bio politički zatvorenik.

He was a 12-year-old boy who had

Bio je 12-godišnji dječak koji je

stolen a bicycle.

ukrao bicikl.

What I also realized at that point was that

Tada sam još shvatila

it was not only Cambodia, but

da se to ne događa samo u Kambodži, nego da,

of the 113

od 113 zemalja

developing countries that torture,

u razvoju koje provode torturu,

93 of these countries have all passed laws

njih 93 imaju zakone

that say you have a right to a lawyer

koji kažu da imate pravo na odvjetnika

and you have a right not to be tortured.

i da imate pravo ne biti mučeni.

And what I recognized was that there was an

Shvatila sam da je to bila

incredible window of opportunity for us

nevjerojatna prilika za nas,

as a world community to come together

kao svjetsku zajednicu, da se udružimo

and end torture as an investigative tool.

i stanemo na kraj mučenju kao sredstvu istrage.

We often think of torture as being

Često o torturi mislimo kao

political torture or reserved for

o političkoj torturi i nečemu rezerviranom

just the worst, but, in fact,

samo za najgore, ali, ustvari,

95 percent of torture today

95 posto današnje torture

is not for political prisoners.

nije usmjereno ka političkim zatvorenicima.

It is for people who are

Usmjereno je k ljudima koji su

in broken-down legal systems,

u lošim pravnim sustavima,

and unfortunately because torture is

zato što je to, nažalost,

the cheapest form of investigation --

najjeftiniji oblik istrage --

it's cheaper than having a legal system,

jeftinije je nego imati legalan sustav,

cheaper than having a lawyer

jeftinije nego imati odvjetnika

and early access to counsel --

i rani pristup savjetovalištu --

it is what happens most of the time.

to se događa većinu vremena.

I believe today that it is possible for us

Ja danas vjerujem da je moguće za nas

as a world community, if we make a decision,

kao svjetsku zajednicu, ako odlučimo,

to come together and end torture

udružiti se i stati na kraj torturi

as an investigative tool in our lifetime,

kao metodi istrage tijekom našeg životnog vijeka,

but it will require three things.

ali to zahtijeva tri stvari.

First is the training, empowerment,

Prvo je trening, osnaživanje

and connection of defenders worldwide.

i povezivanje branitelja širom svijeta.

The second is insuring that there is

Drugo je osigurati da postoji

systematic early access to counsel.

sistematski rani pristup savjetovanju.

And the third is commitment.

A treće je predanost.

So in the year 2000,

U 2000. godini,

I began to wonder,

počela sam se pitati,

what if we came together?

što ako se udružimo?

Could we do something

Možemo li učiniti

for these 93 countries?

nešto za te 93 zemlje?

And I founded International Bridges to Justice

Osnovala sam Međunarodne Mostove Do Pravde (International Bridges to Justice),

which has a specific mission of

koji imaju misiju

ending torture as an investigative tool

ukidanja torture kao metode istrage

and implementing due process rights

i implementaciju prava tijekom procesa

in the 93 countries by placing trained lawyers

u 93 zemlje, stavljajući obučene odvjetnike

at an early stage in police stations

u ranoj fazi istrage u policijske postaje

and in courtrooms.

i sudnice.

My first experiences, though, did come

Moja prva iskustva su bila

from Cambodia, and at the time I remember

iz Kambodže, i sjećam se svog

first coming to Cambodia and there were,

prvog dolaska u Kambodžu i tamo je

in 1994, still less than

1994. godine bilo manje od

10 attorneys in the country because

10 odvjetnika u zemlji, budući

the Khmer Rouge had killed them all.

da su ih Crveni Kmeri sve ubili.

And even 20 years later, there was only

Dvadeset godina kasnije, bilo je samo

10 lawyers in the country, so consequently

10 odvjetnika u zemlji tako da bi,

you'd walk into a prison and

kad uđete u zatvor,

not only would you meet 12-year-old boys,

ne samo susreli 12-godišnjake,

you'd meet women and you'd say,

nego i žene, koje biste pitali:

"Why are you here?" Women would say,

„Zašto ste ovdje?“, a one bi odgovorile:

"Well I've been here for 10 years because

„Ovdje sam 10 godina zato što je

my husband committed a crime, but they can't find him."

moj muž počinio zločin, ali ga ne mogu pronaći“.

So it's just a place where there was no rule of law.

To je jednostavno mjesto bez pravila i zakona.

The first group of defenders came together

Prva skupina branitelja se oformila

and I still remember, as I was training, I said,

i sjećam se, dok sam provodila trening, rekla sam:

"Okay, what do you do for an investigation?"

„Ok, što vi radite za istragu?“,

And there was silence in the class, and finally

i bila je tišina u učionici, a onda je konačno

one woman stood up, [inaudible name],

jedna žena ustala [nerazumljivo ime]

and she said "Khrew," which means "teacher."

i rekla „Khrew“, što znači „učitelj“.

She said, "I have defended more than

Rekla je: „Ja sam branila više od

a hundred people, and I've never had to do

stotinu ljudi i nikad nisam morala raditi

any investigation,

istragu,

because they all come with confessions."

budući da su svi došli s priznanjem“.

And we talked about, as a class, the fact that

Pričali smo, kao razred, o činjenici da,

number one, the confessions

prvo, priznanje

might not be reliable, but number two,

ne mora biti vjerodostojno, a drugo,

we did not want to encourage the police

nismo htjeli podržati policiju

to keep doing this, especially

da nastavi raditi to, posebno

as it was now against the law.

jer je to sada bilo protuzakonito.

And it took a lot of courage for these

Trebalo je mnogo hrabrosti ovim

defenders to decide that they would

braniteljima da odluče da će

begin to stand up and support each other

ustati i podržati jedni druge

in implementing these laws.

u implementaciji tih zakona.

And I still remember the first cases where

Još se sjećam prvih slučajeva gdje bi

they came, all 25 together, she would

oni došli, svih 25 zajedno,

stand up, and they were in the back, and

ona bi ustala, a ostali bi bili iza i

they would support her, and the judges kept

podržali ju, a sudac je nastavljao

saying, "No, no, no, no, we're going to do things

govoriti: „Ne, ne, ne, ne, nastavit ćemo raditi stvari

the exact same way we've been doing them."

na jednak način kako smo i do sada“.

But one day the perfect case came, and it

Ali jednog dana došao je savršen slučaj,

was a woman who was a vegetable seller,

žena, prodavačica povrća,

she was sitting outside of a house.

sjedila je ispred kuće.

She said she actually saw the person

Rekla je da je vidjela osobu koja je istrčala,

run out who she thinks stole

za koju ona misli da je ukrala

whatever the jewelry was, but the police

neki nakit, ali policija je došla,

came, they got her, there was nothing on her.

uhvatila ju, a na njoj nije bilo ništa od tog nakita.

She was pregnant at the time. She had

Bila je trudna u to vrijeme. Imala je

cigarette burns on her. She'd miscarried.

opekotine od cigareta po sebi. Pobacila je.

And when they brought her case

A kad su došli s njenim slučajem

to the judge, for the first time he stood up

kod suca, on je prvi put ustao i rekao:

and he said, "Yes, there's no evidence

„Da, ne postoje dokazi,

except for your torture confession

osim za vaše priznanje torture

and you will be released."

i bit ćete pušteni“.

And the defenders began to take cases

Branitelji su počeli uzimati sve više slučajeva

over and over again and

i, vidjet ćete,

you will see, they have step by step began

korak po korak su počeli

to change the course of history in Cambodia.

mijenjati pravac povijesti u Kambodži.

But Cambodia is not alone.

Ali Kambodža nije sama.

I used to think, well is it Cambodia?

Mislila sam, je li to Kambodža?

Or is it other countries?

Ili su to druge zemlje?

But it is in so many countries.

Ali tako je u puno zemalja.

In Burundi I walked into a prison and it wasn't

U Burundiju sam ušla u zatvor i tamo nije

a 12-year-old boy, it was an 8-year-old boy

bio 12-godišnjak, bio je 8-godišnjak,

for stealing a mobile phone.

zbog krađe mobitela.

Or a woman, I picked up her baby,

Ili žena, uzela sam njenu bebu,

really cute baby, I said "Your baby is so cute."

doista slatku bebu i rekla:“Vaša beba je tako slatka“.

It wasn't a baby, she was three.

To nije bila beba, imala je tri godine.

And she said "Yeah, but she's why I'm here,"

A ona je rekla: „Da, ali ona je razlog zašto sam ovdje“,

because she was accused of stealing

bila je optužena da je ukrala

two diapers and an iron for her baby and

dvije pelene i peglu za svoju bebu i

still had been in prison.

još je bila u zatvoru.

And when I walked up to the prison director,

Kad sam došla do ravnatelja zatvora,

I said, "You've got to let her out.

rekla sam: „Morate ju pustiti van.

A judge would let her out."

Sudac bi ju pustio van“.

And he said, "Okay, we can talk about it,

On je rekao: „Ok, možemo razgovarati o tome.

but look at my prison. Eighty percent

Ali pogledajte moj zatvor. 80 posto

of the two thousand people here

od 2.000 ljudi ovdje

are without a lawyer. What can we do?"

su bez odvjetnika. Što možemo učiniti?“

So lawyers began to courageously

Odvjetnici su se počeli hrabro udruživati

stand up together to organize a system

da organiziraju sustav

where they can take cases.

gdje mogu uzimati slučajeve.

But we realized that it's not only the training

Ali smo shvatili da nije sve samo u obučavanju

of the lawyers, but the connection

odvjetnika, nego i njihova povezanost

of the lawyers that makes a difference.

je ono što pravi razliku.

For example, in Cambodia, it was that

Na primjer, u Kambodži je bila

[inaudible name] did not go alone

[nerazumljivo ime] koja nije išla sama,

but she had 24 lawyers with her

nego je imala sa sobom 24 odvjetnika

who stood up together. And in the same way,

koji su se držali zajedno. O istom mi

in China, they always tell me,

u Kini kažu

"It's like a fresh wind in the desert

„To je kao svježi vjetar u pustinji,

when we can come together."

kad možemo doći zajedno“.

Or in Zimbabwe, where I remember Innocent,

Ili u Zimbabveu, sjećam se jednog nevinog,

after coming out of a prison where everybody

koji je nakon izlaska iz zatvora gdje su svi ostajali,

stood up and said, "I've been here

rekao: „Bio sam ovdje

for one year, eight years, 12 years

godinu, osam godina, dvanaest godina

without a lawyer,"

bez odvjetnika“,

he came and we had a training together

došao je i držali smo obuku zajedno,

and he said, "I have heard it said" --

a on je rekao: „Čuo sam da je rečeno“ --

because he had heard people mumbling

budući da je čuo ljude kako mrmljaju

and grumbling -- "I have heard it said that

i gunđaju -- „Čuo sam da je rečeno

we cannot help to create justice

da ne možemo pomoći da se kreira pravda

because we do not have the resources."

budući nemamo resursa“.

And then he said, "But I want you to know

A onda je rekao: „Ali želim da znate

that the lack of resources

da nedostatak resursa

is never an excuse for injustice."

nikad nije izgovor za nepravdu“.

And with that, he successfully

Organizirao je

organized 68 lawyers who have been

68 odvjetnika koji su

systematically taking the cases.

sustavno uzimali slučajeve.

The key that we see, though, is training

Mi kao rješenje vidimo obuku

and then early access.

i rani pristup.

I was recently in Egypt, and was inspired

Nedavno sam bila u Egiptu i bila sam inspirirana

to meet with another group of lawyers,

da se sastanem s drugom skupinom odvjetnika,

and what they told me is that they said,

a oni su mi rekli:

"Hey, look, we don't have police

„Gle, mi nemamo policiju

on the streets now. The police are

na ulicama. Policija je

one of the main reasons why we had

jedan od glavnih razloga zašto smo imali

the revolution. They were torturing everybody

revoluciju. Oni su mučili sve

all the time."

cijelo vrijeme“.

And I said, "But there's been tens of millions

Ja sam rekla: „Ali desetci milijuna

of dollars that have recently gone in

dolara su u posljednje vrijeme otišli za

to the development of the legal system here.

razvoj pravnog sustava ovdje.

What's going on?"

Što se događa?“

I met with one of the development agencies,

Sastala sam se s jednom agencijom za razvoj,

and they were training prosecutors

oni su obučavali tužitelje

and judges, which is the normal bias,

i suce, što je inače neravnopravno

as opposed to defenders.

u odnosu na branitelje.

And they showed me a manual which

Pokazali su mi priručnik

actually was an excellent manual.

koji je bio odličan.

I said, "I'm gonna copy this."

Rekla sam: „Kopirat ću ovo“.

It had everything in it. Lawyers can come

Sve je bilo u njemu. Odvjetnici mogu doći

at the police station. It was perfect.

u policijsku postaju. Bilo je savršeno.

Prosecutors were perfectly trained.

Tužitelji su bili savršeno obučeni.

But I said to them, "I just have one question,

Ali rekla sam im: „Imam jedno pitanje --

which is, by the time that everybody got to

do trenutka dok svi dođu

the prosecutor's office, what had happened to them?"

u tužiteljev ured, što im se dogodi?“

And after a pause, they said,

Nakon pauze, rekli su:

"They had been tortured."

„Bili su mučeni“.

So the pieces are,

Znači, nije dovoljno

not only the training of the lawyers, but

samo obučiti odvjetnike,

us finding a way to systematically implement

moramo naći način da sustavno implementiramo

early access to counsel, because they are

rani pristup savjetniku, budući su oni

the safeguard in the system

osiguranje u sustavu

for people who are being tortured.

za ljude koji su mučeni.

And as I tell you this, I'm also aware of the

Dok vam ovo govorim, svjesna sam da

fact that it sounds like, "Oh, okay, it sounds

to zvuči kao: „Oh, ok, to zvuči kao

like we could do it, but can we really do it?"

da mi to možemo, ali možemo li doista?“

Because it sounds big.

Zato što zvuči veliko.

And there are many reasons why I believe it's possible.

A postoji mnogo razloga zašto mislim da je moguće.

The first reason is the people on the ground

Prvi razlog su ljudi na terenu

who find ways of creating miracles

koji zbog svoje predanosti

because of their commitment.

pronalaze načine da čine čuda.

It's not only Innocent, who I told you about

Ne samo Nevini, o kom sam vam pričala,

in Zimbabwe, but defenders all over the world

u Zimbabveu, nego branitelji širom svijeta

who are looking for these pieces.

koji traže načine.

We have a program called JusticeMakers,

Imamo program koji se zove StvarateljiPravde (JusticeMakers)

and we realized there are people that are

i shvatili smo da postoje

courageous and want to do things, but

hrabri ljudi koji žele raditi, ali

how can we support them?

kako ih možemo podržati?

So it's an online contest where it's only

Tako da je to online natjecanje gdje je na

five thousand dollars if you come up with

raspolaganju 5.000$ ako nam date

and innovative way of implementing justice.

inovativan način implementiranja pravde.

And there are 30 JusticeMakers

A postoji 30 JusticeMakersa

throughout the world, from Sri Lanka

širom svijeta, od Šri Lanke,

to Swaziland to the DRC, who with

do Svazija, do DR Konga, koji s

five thousand dollars do amazing things,

5.000$ rade nevjerojatne stvari,

through SMS programs,

kroz SMS programe,

through paralegal programs,

pomoćne pravne programe,

through whatever they can do.

kroz sve što mogu napraviti.

And it's not only these JusticeMakers,

Nisu to samo JusticeMakersi,

but people we courageously see

nego ljudi koji

figure out who their networks are

shvaćaju tko su njihove mreže

and how they can move it forward.

i kako ih mogu pokrenuti naprijed.

So in China, for instance, great laws

Tako je u Kini, naprimjer, izašao odličan

came out where it says police cannot

zakon koji kaže da policija ne smije

torture people or they will be punished.

mučiti ljude, inače će biti kažnjeni.

And I was sitting side by side with one of our

Sjedila sam pokraj jednog od naših

very courageous lawyers, and said,

vrlo hrabrih odvjetnika i rekla:

"How can we get this out? How can we

„Kako mi ovo možemo provjeriti? Kako možemo

make sure that this is implemented?

biti sigurni da se implementira?

This is fantastic." And he said to me,

Ovo je odlično“. A on mi je rekao:

"Well, do you have money?" And I said,

„Imate li novca?“ Ja sam rekla:

"No." And he said, "That's okay,

„Ne“. On je rekao: „ To je u redu,

we can still figure it out."

možemo to još napraviti“.

And on December 4, he organized

4. prosinca organizirao je

three thousand members

3.000 članova

of the Youth Communist League,

Omladinske Komunističke Lige

from 14 of the top law schools,

s 14 najboljih pravnih fakulteta,

who organized themselves, developed

koji su se sami organizirali, napravili

posters with the new laws, and went

postere s novim zakonima i otišli

to the police stations and began what he says

u policijske postaje i počeli s, kako on kaže,

is a non-violent legal revolution

nenasilnom pravnom revolucijom

to protect citizen rights.

za zaštitu građanskih prava.

So I talked about the fact that we need

Govorila sam o tome da moramo

to train and support defenders.

obučiti i podržati branitelje.

We need to systematically implement

Trebamo sustavnu implementaciju

early access to counsel.

pristupa savjetnicima.

But the third and most important thing is that

Ali treća i najvažnija stvar je da

we make a commitment to this.

budemo predani ovomu.

And people often say to me, "You know,

Ljudi mi često kažu: „Znaš,

this is great, but it's wildly idealistic.

ovo je super, ali je vrlo idealistički.

Never going to happen."

Neće se dogoditi“.

And the reason that I think that

Razlog zašto mislim da su

those words are interesting is because

te izjave zanimljive je zato što

those were the same kinds of words

su to jednake izjave

that were used for people who decided

koje su upućivane ljudima koji su odlučili

they would end slavery, or end apartheid.

stati na kraj ropstvu ili aparthejdu.

It began with a small group of people

Počelo je s malom skupinom ljudi

who decided they would commit.

koji su odlučili predati se tomu.

Now, there's one of our favorite poems

Najdraža pjesma među braniteljima,

from the defenders, which they share

koja se pjeva

from each other, is:

među njima je:

"Take courage friends, the road is often long,

„Budite hrabri, prijatelji, cesta je često dugačka,

the path is never clear,

put nikad nije čist.

and the stakes are very high,

Ulog je visok,

but deep down, you are not alone."

ali u dubini niste sami“.

And I believe that if we can come together

Vjerujem da se možemo skupiti

as a world community to support not only

kao svjetska zajednica da podržimo, ne samo

defenders, but also everyone in the system

branitelje, nego svakoga u sustavu

who is looking towards it,

koji je otvoren prema tomu,

we can end torture as an investigative tool.

možemo stati na kraj mučenju kao sredstvu istrage.

I end always, because I'm sure the questions are --

Uvijek završim, budući da sam sigurna da su pitanja --

and I'd be happy to talk to you

a ja bih bila sretna da razgovaram s vama

at any point -- "But what can I really do?"

u tom trenutku -- „Ali što doista možemo učiniti?“

Well, I would say this. First of all,

Ja bih rekla ovo. Prvo,

you know what you can do. But second of all,

znate što možete učiniti. Ali, drugo,

I would leave you with the story of Vishna,

ostavila bih vas s Vishninom pričom,

who actually was my inspiration

koji je ustvari bio moja inspiracija

for starting International Bridges to Justice.

za pokretanje Međunarodnih Mostova Do Pravde.

Vishna was a 4-year-old boy when I met him

Vishna je bio 4-godišnji dječak kad sam ga upoznala,

who was born in a Cambodian prison

koji je rođen u kambodžanskom zatvoru

in Kandal Province. But because he was

u provinciji Kandal. Budući da je bio

born in the prison, everybody loved him,

rođen u zatvoru, svi su ga voljeli,

including the guards, so he was the only one

uključujući čuvare, tako da je on bio jedini

who was allowed to come

kojem je bilo dozovoljeno prolaziti

in and out of the bars.

kroz rešetke.

So, you know, there's bars. And by the time

Dakle, bile su rešetke. Kako je

that Vishna was getting bigger,

Vishna rastao,

which means what gets bigger? Your head gets bigger.

što znači, što postaje veće? Glava postaje veća.

So he would come to the first bar,

On bi došao do prve rešetke,

the second bar and then the third bar,

druge i onda do treće rešetke,

and then really slowly move his head

i onda jako polako pomicao glavu

so he could fit through, and come back,

da bi mogao proći kroz to, i dolazio nazad,

third, second, first. And he would

treća, druga, prva. Uhvatio bi

grab my pinkie, because what he wanted

moj mali prst, budući je ono što je želio

to do every day is he wanted to go visit.

bilo svaki dan ići u posjete.

You know, he never quite made it to

Nije uspio sve posjetiti

all of them every day, but he wanted to visit

svaki dan, ali želio je posjetiti

all 156 prisoners. And I would lift him,

svih 156 zatvorenika. Ja bih ga podigla

and he would put his fingers through.

i on bi provukao svoje prste.

Or if they were dark cells, it was like iron

Ili, ako su bile tamne ćelije, to je bilo kao

corrugated, and he would put his fingers through.

valovito željezo, a on bi provukao svoje prste.

And most of the prisoners said that he was

Većina zatvorenika je rekla da je on

their greatest joy and their sunshine, and they

bio njihova najveća radost i njihovo sunce,

looked forward to him. And I was like,

veselili su mu se. A ja sam mislila --

here's Vishna. He's a 4-year-old boy.

to je Vishna. Četverogodišnjak.

He was born in a prison with almost nothing,

Rođen je u zatvoru skoro bez ičega,

no material goods, but he had a sense of

bez materijalnih dobara, ali je imao osjećaj za

his own heroic journey, which I believe

svoje vlastito herojsko putovanje,

we are all born into. He said,

s kojim se rodimo. On je rekao:

"Probably I can't do everything.

„Ja vjerojatno ne mogu učiniti sve.

But I'm one. I can do something.

Ali ja sam taj. Ja mogu učiniti nešto.

And I will do the one thing that I can do."

I učinit ću ono što mogu“.

So I thank you for having the prophetic

Zahvaljujem vam što ste imali profetsku

imagination to imagine the shaping

maštu da zamisliti stvaranje

of a new world with us together,

novog svijeta s nama

and invite you into this journey with us.

i pozivam vas na ovo putovanje s nama.

Thank you.

Hvala vam.

(Applause)

(Pljesak)

Thank you.

Hvala vam.

(Applause)

(Pljesak)

Thank you.

Hvala.

(Applause)

(Pljesak)