Strange answers to the psychopath test | Jon Ronson | TED

Translator: Timothy Covell Reviewer: Morton Bast

Translator: Raimonds Jaks Reviewer: Ilze Garda

The story starts: I was at a friend's house,

Tas sākās tā:

es biju ciemos pie draudzenes, un viņai plauktā bija DSM rokasgrāmata,

and she had on her shelf a copy of the DSM manual,

which is the manual of mental disorders.

psihisko traucējumu rokasgrāmata.

It lists every known mental disorder.

Tajā uzskaitīts ikviens zināmais psihiskais traucējums.

And it used to be, back in the '50s, a very slim pamphlet.

50. gados tas bija plāns bukletiņš.

And then it got bigger and bigger and bigger,

Tad tas kļuva arvien biezāks, biezāks un biezāks,

and now it's 886 pages long.

un tagad tas 886 lappušu biezs.

And it lists currently 374 mental disorders.

Pašlaik tajā uzskaitīti 374 psihiskie traucējumi.

So I was leafing through it,

Tā nu es lapoju to,

wondering if I had any mental disorders,

gribēdams uzzināt, vai man nepiemīt kāda psihiska novirze,

and it turns out I've got 12.

un izrādījās, ka man to ir 12.

(Laughter)

(Smiekli)

I've got generalized anxiety disorder,

Man piemīt vispārējā trauksme,

which is a given.

pats par sevi saprotams.

I've got nightmare disorder,

Man ir murgi,

which is categorized

ko uzskata par slimību,

if you have recurrent dreams of being pursued or declared a failure,

ja cilvēkam ir atkārtoti sapņi, kuros viņu vajā vai atzīst par neveiksminieku,

and all my dreams involve people chasing me down the street

un visos manos sapņos kāds dzenas man pakaļ

going, "You're a failure!"

un sauc: "Tu esi neveiksminieks!"

(Laughter)

(Smiekli)

I've got parent-child relational problems,

Man ir vecāku-bērnu attiecību problēmas,

which I blame my parents for.

kurās es vainoju savus vecākus.

(Laughter)

(Smiekli)

I'm kidding. I'm not kidding.

Es jokoju. Es nejokoju.

I'm kidding.

Es jokoju.

And I've got malingering.

Un es simulēju slimības.

And I think it's actually quite rare

Man šķiet, visai reti

to have both malingering and generalized anxiety disorder,

cilvēkam piemīt gan simulēšana, gan vispārējā trauksme,

because malingering tends to make me feel very anxious.

jo simulēšana manī rada trauksmi.

Anyway, I was looking through this book,

Tā nu es lapoju šo grāmatu,

wondering if I was much crazier than I thought I was,

prātojot, vai esmu daudz trakāks, nekā man pašam šķiet,

or maybe it's not a good idea to diagnose yourself with a mental disorder

vai ka varbūt nav laba doma diagnosticēt sev psihisku traucējumu,

if you're not a trained professional,

ja neesi apmācīts profesionālis,

or maybe the psychiatry profession has a kind of strange desire

vai ka varbūt psihiatriem ir dīvaina vēlme

to label what's essentially normal human behavior as a mental disorder.

būtībā normālu uzvedību klasificēt kā psihisku traucējumu.

I didn't know which of these was true, but I thought it was kind of interesting,

Es nezināju, kas no tā visa ir patiess, bet tas šķita visai interesanti,

and I thought maybe I should meet a critic of psychiatry

un es nodomāju, ka varbūt vajadzētu satikt kādu psihiatrijas kritiķi,

to get their view,

lai uzzinātu viņa viedokli,

which is how I ended up having lunch with the Scientologists.

un tā es nonācu pie pusdienu galda ar scientologiem.

(Laughter)

(Smiekli)

It was a man called Brian, who runs a crack team of Scientologists

Tas bija kāds vīrs vārdā Braiens, kas vada izcilāko scientologu grupu,

who are determined to destroy psychiatry wherever it lies.

kuras mērķis ir iznīcināt psihiatriju itin visur.

They're called the CCHR.

Viņi sevi dēvē par CCHR.

And I said to him, "Can you prove to me

Es viņam teicu: "Vai varat pierādīt,

that psychiatry is a pseudo-science that can't be trusted?"

ka psihiatrija ir pseidozinātne, kurai nevar ticēt?"

And he said, "Yes, we can prove it to you."

Viņš teica: "Jā, mēs to varam."

And I said, "How?"

Es jautāju: "Kā?"

And he said, "We're going to introduce you to Tony."

Viņš atbildēja: "Mēs jūs iepazīstināsim ar Toniju."

And I said, "Who's Tony?"

Es jautāju: "Kas ir Tonijs?"

And he said, "Tony's in Broadmoor."

Un viņš teica: "Tonijs ir Broudmūrā."

Now, Broadmoor is Broadmoor Hospital.

Broudmūra ir Broudmūras slimnīca.

It used to be known as the Broadmoor Asylum for the Criminally Insane.

Kādreiz to dēvēja par Broudmūras vājprātīgo noziedznieku patversmi.

It's where they send the serial killers,

Turp sūta sērijveida slepkavas

and the people who can't help themselves.

un cilvēkus, kas nevar sevi savaldīt.

And I said to Brian, "Well, what did Tony do?"

Es jautāju Braienam: "Ko Tonijs ir nodarījis?"

And he said, "Hardly anything.

Viņš teica: "Gandrīz neko.

He beat someone up or something,

Viņš kādu piekāva vai izdarīja ko tamlīdzīgu

and he decided to fake madness to get out of a prison sentence.

un nolēma notēlot vājprātu, lai izvairītos no cietuma.

But he faked it too well, and now he's stuck in Broadmoor

Bet viņš tēloja pārāk labi, un tagad viņš ir iestrēdzis Broudmūrā,

and nobody will believe he's sane.

un neviens netic, ka viņš ir pie pilna prāta.

Do you want us to try and get you into Broadmoor to meet Tony?"

Vai gribat, lai mēģinām jums noorganizēt tikšanos ar Toniju Broudmūrā?"

So I said, "Yes, please."

Es teicu: "Jā, lūdzu."

So I got the train to Broadmoor.

Tā nu es iekāpu vilcienā uz Broudmūru.

I began to yawn uncontrollably around Kempton Park,

Ap Kemptonas parku es sāku neizturami žāvāties.

which apparently is what dogs also do when anxious,

To darot arī suņi, kad satraucas.

they yawn uncontrollably.

Tie žāvājas vienā laidā.

And we got to Broadmoor.

Mēs nonācām Broudmūrā.

And I got taken through gate after gate after gate after gate

Mani veda caur vārtu vārtiem un durvju durvīm,

into the wellness center, which is where you get to meet the patients.

līdz nonācām veselības centrā, kur pacienti tiekas ar viesiem.

It looks like a giant Hampton Inn.

Tas izskatās kā milzīga trīszvaigžņu viesnīca,

It's all peach and pine and calming colors.

viss ir persiku un priežu, un nomierinošās krāsās.

And the only bold colors are the reds of the panic buttons.

Vienīgās košās krāsas ir sarkanās trauksmes pogas.

And the patients started drifting in.

Pacienti sāka lēnām plūst iekšā.

And they were quite overweight and wearing sweatpants,

Viņi bija visai korpulenti, tērpušies sporta biksēs,

and quite docile-looking.

un izskatījās visai paklausīgi.

And Brian the Scientologist whispered to me,

Scientologs Braiens man čukstēja:

"They're medicated,"

"Viņi ir nozāļoti,"

which, to the Scientologists, is like the worst evil in the world,

kas scientologam ir pasaules lielākais ļaunums,

but I'm thinking it's probably a good idea.

bet man šķita, ka tā droši vien ir labāk.

(Laughter)

(Smiekli)

And then Brian said, "Here's Tony."

Tad Braiens teica: "Lūk, kur Tonijs."

And a man was walking in.

Ienāca kāds vīrs.

And he wasn't overweight, he was in very good physical shape.

Viņš nebija korpulents, bet gan labā fiziskā formā.

And he wasn't wearing sweatpants,

Viņš nebija tērpies sporta biksēs,

he was wearing a pinstripe suit.

viņš bija tērpies svītrainā uzvalkā.

And he had his arm outstretched

Viņš bija izstiepis roku sveicienam kā kāds no realitātes šova The Apprentice.

like someone out of The Apprentice.

He looked like a man who wanted to wear an outfit

Viņš izskatījās kā cilvēks, kas gribēja ģērbties tā,

that would convince me that he was very sane.

lai pārliecinātu mani, ka viņš ir ļoti normāls.

And he sat down.

Viņš apsēdās.

And I said, "So is it true that you faked your way in here?"

Es teicu: "Tātad tā ir taisnība, ka jūs simulējāt, lai šeit nonāktu?"

And he said, "Yep. Yep. Absolutely. I beat someone up when I was 17.

Viņš teica: "Jā. Jā. Tieši tā. Septiņpadsmit gadu vecumā es kādu piekāvu.

And I was in prison awaiting trial,

Es apcietinājumā gaidīju spriedumu,

and my cellmate said to me,

un mans kameras biedrs teica:

'You know what you have to do?

"Zini, kas tev jādara?

Fake madness.

Notēlo trako.

Tell them you're mad, you'll get sent to some cushy hospital.

Pasaki viņiem, ka esi traks, un tevi nosūtīs uz jauku slimnīcu.

Nurses will bring you pizzas, you'll have your own PlayStation.'"

Māsiņas tev pienesīs picas, un tev būs savs PlayStation.""

I said, "Well, how did you do it?"

"Kā jūs to izdarījāt?"

He said, "Well, I asked to see the prison psychiatrist.

Viņš teica: "Es palūdzu tikšanos ar cietuma psihiatru.

And I'd just seen a film called 'Crash,'

Nesen biju noskatījies filmu Crash,

in which people get sexual pleasure from crashing cars into walls.

kurā cilvēki gūst seksuālu baudījumu no auto triekšanas sienā.

So I said to the psychiatrist,

Tāpēc es psihiatram teicu:

'I get sexual pleasure from crashing cars into walls.'"

"Es gūstu seksuālu baudījumu no auto triekšanas sienā.""

And I said, "What else?"

Un es jautāju: "Ko vēl?"

He said, "Oh, yeah. I told the psychiatrist

Viņš teica: "Ak, jā, vēl es psihiatram pateicu,

that I wanted to watch women as they died,

ka gribētu vērot, kā mirst sievietes,

because it would make me feel more normal."

jo tas liktu man justies normālam."

I said, "Where'd you get that from?"

Jautāju: "No kurienes jūs ņēmāt to?"

He said, "Oh, from a biography of Ted Bundy that they had

Viņš teica: "No Teda Bandija biogrāfijas cietuma bibliotēkā."

at the prison library."

Anyway, he faked madness too well, he said.

Viņš notēloja vājprātīgo pārāk labi.

And they didn't send him to some cushy hospital.

Un viņu nenosūtīja uz jauku slimnīcu.

They sent him to Broadmoor.

Viņi nosūtīja viņu uz Broudmūru.

And the minute he got there,

Tur nonācis,

said he took one look at the place, asked to see the psychiatrist,

viņš palūkojās apkārt un sacīja psihiatram:

said, "There's been a terrible misunderstanding.

"Ir noticis milzīgs pārpratums,

I'm not mentally ill."

es neesmu psihiski slims."

I said, "How long have you been here for?"

Es jautāju: "Cik ilgi jūs jau šeit esat?"

He said, "Well, if I'd just done my time in prison

Viņš atbildēja: "Ja es izciestu cietumsodu par sākotnējo pārkāpumu,

for the original crime, I'd have got five years.

es būtu bijis brīvs pēc pieciem gadiem.

I've been in Broadmoor for 12 years."

Broudmūrā es esmu jau 12 gadus."

Tony said that it's a lot harder to convince people you're sane

Tonijs teica, ka ir daudz grūtāk pārliecināt citus, ka esi normāls,

than it is to convince them you're crazy.

nekā ka esi traks.

He said, "I thought the best way to seem normal

"Iepriekš domāju, lai izskatītos normāls,

would be to talk to people normally about normal things

jārunā normāli par normālām lietām,

like football or what's on TV.

piemēram, futbolu vai televīziju.

I subscribe to New Scientist,

Es abonēju New Scientist,

and recently they had an article

un nesen tajā bija raksts

about how the U.S. Army was training bumblebees to sniff out explosives.

par ASV armiju, kas apmāca kamenes saost sprāgstvielas.

So I said to a nurse,

Tā nu es māsiņai teicu:

'Did you know that the U.S. Army is training bumblebees

"Vai zinājāt, ka ASV armija apmāca kamenes saost sprāgstvielas?"

to sniff out explosives?'

When I read my medical notes, I saw they'd written:

Lasot savas slimības piezīmes, ieraudzīju tajā ierakstu:

'Believes bees can sniff out explosives.'"

"Tic, ka bites var saost sprāgstvielas."

(Laughter)

(Smiekli)

He said, "You know, they're always looking out for nonverbal clues

Viņš teica: "Ziniet, viņi vienmēr meklē neverbālas norādes

to my mental state.

par manu psihisko stāvokli.

Bet kā jāsēž normālam cilvēkam?

But how do you sit in a sane way?

How do you cross your legs in a sane way?

Kā jāsakrusto kājas normālam cilvēkam?

It's just impossible."

Tas ir neiespējami!"

When Tony said that to me,

Kad Tonijs to teica,

I thought to myself, "Am I sitting like a journalist?

es pie sevis nodomāju: "Vai es sēžu kā žurnālists?

Am I crossing my legs like a journalist?"

Vai sakrustoju kājas kā žurnālists?"

He said, "You know, I've got the Stockwell Strangler on one side of me,

Viņš teica: "Ziniet, viens mans kaimiņš ir Stokvelas sērijveida slepkava,

and I've got the 'Tiptoe Through the Tulips' rapist

un otrs ir pazīstams izvarotājs.

on the other side of me.

So I tend to stay in my room a lot because I find them quite frightening.

Tāpēc es cenšos palikt savā istabā, jo man no viņiem bail.

And they take that as a sign of madness.

Un viņi to uztver kā vājprāta pazīmi.

They say it proves that I'm aloof and grandiose."

Viņi saka, ka tas pierāda manu norobežošanos un paštīksmināšanos."

So, only in Broadmoor would not wanting to hang out with serial killers

Tikai Broudmūrā nevēlēšanās saieties ar sērijveida slepkavām

be a sign of madness.

ir vājprāta pazīme.

Anyway, he seemed completely normal to me, but what did I know?

Tātad viņš man šķita pilnībā normāls, bet ne jau man par to spriest.

And when I got home I emailed his clinician, Anthony Maden.

Atbraucis mājās, es uzrakstīju viņa ārstam Entonijam Meidenam.

I said, "What's the story?"

Es jautāju: "Kā ar viņu īsti ir?"

And he said, "Yep. We accept that Tony faked madness

Viņš teica: "Jā, mēs pieņemam, ka Tonijs tēloja vājprātu,

to get out of a prison sentence, because his hallucinations --

lai izvairītos no cietuma, jo viņa halucinācijas,

that had seemed quite cliche to begin with --

kas jau no paša sākuma šķita visai klišejiskas,

just vanished the minute he got to Broadmoor.

pazuda brīdī, kad viņš nokļuva Broudmūrā.

However, we have assessed him,

Tomēr mēs viņu esam izvērtējuši

and we've determined that what he is

un mēs noteicām, ka viņš ir psihopāts."

is a psychopath."

And in fact, faking madness

Patiesībā vājprāta tēlošana

is exactly the kind of cunning and manipulative act of a psychopath.

ir tieši psihopātam raksturīga viltības un manipulācijas izpausme.

It's on the checklist: cunning, manipulative.

Šīs pazīmes ir kontrolsarakstā – viltīgs, manipulatīvs.

So, faking your brain going wrong

Tātad tēlošana, ka smadzenes ir slimas,

is evidence that your brain has gone wrong.

norāda uz to, ka smadzenes ir slimas.

And I spoke to other experts,

Es runāju ar citiem ekspertiem,

and they said the pinstripe suit -- classic psychopath --

un viņi teica, ka strīpainais uzvalks – klasisks psihopāts –

speaks to items one and two on the checklist:

atbilst pirmajam un otrajam kontrolsaraksta punktam:

glibness, superficial charm and grandiose sense of self-worth.

izmanīgums, virspusējs šarms un milzīga pašvērtības izjūta.

And I said, "Well, but why didn't he hang out with the other patients?"

Es jautāju: "Bet kāpēc viņš nesaietas ar citiem pacientiem?"

Classic psychopath -- it speaks to grandiosity and also lack of empathy.

"Klasisks psihopāts – tas norāda uz paštīksmināšanos un empātijas trūkumu."

So all the things that had seemed most normal about Tony

Tā nu viss, kas šķita Tonijā normāls,

was evidence, according to his clinician,

pēc viņa ārsta vārdiem, bija pierādījums

that he was mad in this new way.

viņa vājprātam šajā jaunajā veidā.

He was a psychopath.

Viņš bija psihopāts.

And his clinician said to me, "If you want to know more about psychopaths,

Viņa ārsts teica: "Ja vēlaties uzzināt vairāk par psihopātiem,

you can go on a psychopath-spotting course

varat apmeklēt psihopātu noteikšanas kursus,

run by Robert Hare, who invented the psychopath checklist."

ko vada Roberts Heirs, psihopātijas kontrolsaraksta radītājs."

So I did.

I went on a psychopath-spotting course,

Tā es arī darīju.

Es devos uz psihopātu noteikšanas kursiem,

and I am now a certified --

un tagad esmu sertificēts,

and I have to say, extremely adept -- psychopath spotter.

un jāatzīst, ka ļoti lietpratīgs psihopātu noteicējs.

So, here's the statistics:

Lūk, kāda ir statistika:

One in a hundred regular people is a psychopath.

viens no katriem simts parastiem cilvēkiem ir psihopāts.

So there's 1,500 people in his room.

Ja šajā telpā ir 1500 cilvēku,

Fifteen of you are psychopaths.

tad piecpadsmit no jums ir psihopāti.

Although that figure rises to four percent of CEOs and business leaders,

Kaut gan šis skaitlis pieaug līdz 4% uzņēmuma vadītāju un līderu vidū,

so I think there's a very good chance

tāpēc es domāju, ka ir liela varbūtība,

there's about 30 or 40 psychopaths in this room.

ka šajā telpā ir 30 līdz 40 psihopātu.

It could be carnage by the end of the night.

Līdz vakaram šis sarīkojums varētu izvērsties par slaktiņu.

(Laughter)

(Smiekli)

Hare said the reason why is because capitalism at its most ruthless

Heirs teica, ka iemesls ir tas, ka kapitālisms savā nežēlīgākajā izpausmē

rewards psychopathic behavior --

atalgo psihopātisku rīcību:

the lack of empathy, the glibness,

empātijas trūkumu, izmanību,

cunning, manipulative.

viltību, manipulāciju.

In fact, capitalism, perhaps at its most remorseless,

Patiesībā kapitālisms tā pārākajā pakāpē

is a physical manifestation of psychopathy.

ir fiziska psihopātijas manifestācija.

It's like a form of psychopathy that's come down to affect us all.

Tā ir kā psihopātijas forma, kas ietekmē mūs visus.

Hare said, "You know what? Forget about some guy at Broadmoor

Heirs teica: "Ziniet, aizmirstiet par to puisi Broudmūrā,

who may or may not have faked madness.

kurš varbūt ir vai nav simulants.

Who cares? That's not a big story.

Tas nav nekas īpašs.

The big story," he said, "is corporate psychopathy.

Īpašais ir korporatīvā psihopātija.

You want to go and interview yourself some corporate psychopaths."

Nointervējiet kādu korporatīvo psihopātu."

So I gave it a try. I wrote to the Enron people.

Es nolēmu pamēģināt. Es uzrakstīju Enron cilvēkiem.

I said, "Could I come and interview you in prison,

Es teicu: "Vai es varētu atnākt uz cietumu un noskaidrot, vai neesat psihopāti?"

to find out it you're psychopaths?"

(Laughter)

(Smiekli)

And they didn't reply.

Viņi neatbildēja.

(Laughter)

(Smiekli)

So I changed tack.

Tad es mainīju taktiku.

I emailed "Chainsaw Al" Dunlap,

Es uzrakstīju "Motorzāģa Alam" Danlapam,

the asset stripper from the 1990s.

uzņēmumu aktīvu iznīcinātājam no 90. gadiem.

He would come into failing businesses

Viņš mēdza iesaistīties bankrotējošā uzņēmumā,

and close down 30 percent of the workforce,

atlaist 30 procentus darbinieku,

just turn American towns into ghost towns.

pārvēršot veselas Amerikas pilsētas par spoku pilsētām.

And I emailed him and I said,

Es viņam uzrakstīju un teicu:

"I believe you may have a very special brain anomaly

"Es domāju, ka jums ir kāda ļoti īpaša smadzeņu anomālija,

that makes you ... special,

kas jūs padara... īpašu,

and interested in the predatory spirit, and fearless.

tādu, kam raksturīga plēsīga pieeja un bezbailība.

Can I come and interview you about your special brain anomaly?"

Vai es varētu jūs nointervēt par šo īpašo smadzeņu anomāliju?"

And he said, "Come on over!"

Un viņš teica: "Brauciet tik šurp!"

(Laughter)

(Smiekli)

So I went to Al Dunlap's grand Florida mansion.

Tā nu es devos uz Ala Danlapa milzīgo Floridas īpašumu.

It was filled with sculptures of predatory animals.

Tas bija pilns plēsīgu dzīvnieku statujām.

There were lions and tigers -- he was taking me through the garden --

Tur bija lauvas un tīģeri – viņš mani izveda cauri dārzam –

there were falcons and eagles,

tur bija ērgļi un vanagi,

he was saying, "Over there you've got sharks and --"

un viņš teica: "Lūk, tur ir haizivis un..."

he was saying this in a less effeminate way --

Viņš to teica mazāk piezemēti:

"You've got more sharks and you've got tigers."

"Tur ir vēl vairāk haizivju, un tur ir tīģeri."

It was like Narnia.

Tur izskatījās kā Nārnijā.

(Laughter)

(Smiekli)

And then we went into his kitchen.

Tad mēs devāmies uz virtuvi.

Now, Al Dunlap would be brought in to save failing companies,

Alu Danlapu aicināja uz uzņēmumiem, kuriem draudēja bankrots.

he'd close down 30 percent of the workforce.

Viņš mēdza atlaist 30 procentus darbinieku.

And he'd quite often fire people with a joke.

Un bieži vien viņš tos atlaida jokojoties.

Like, for instance, one famous story about him,

Piemēram, viens nostāsts vēsta,

somebody came up to him and said, "I've just bought myself a new car."

ka kāds darbinieks viņam teicis: "Es tikko nopirku jaunu mašīnu."

And he said, "Well, you may have a new car,

Un viņš atbildēja: "Varbūt mašīna tevi tagad ir,

but I'll tell you what you don't have -- a job."

bet es tev pateikšu, kā tev vairs nav. Tev vairs nav darba."

So in his kitchen --

he was in there with his wife, Judy, and his bodyguard, Sean --

Virtuvē –

viņš tur bija ar savu sievu Džūdiju un miesassargu Šonu –

and I said, "You know how I said in my email

es viņam teicu: "Atceraties, es jums rakstīju,

that you might have a special brain anomaly that makes you special?"

ka jums varētu piemist īpaša smadzeņu anomālija, kas jūs padara īpašu?"

He said, "Yeah, it's an amazing theory, it's like Star Trek.

Viņš teica: "Tā ir vienreizēja teorija. Kā no Star Trek seriāla.

You're going where no man has gone before."

Jūs darāt to, ko neviens vēl nav darījis."

And I said, "Well --" (Clears throat)

Un es teicu: "Hmm..." (nokrekšķinās)

(Laughter)

(Smiekli)

Some psychologists might say

Daži psihologi teiktu,

that this makes you --" (Mumbles)

ka tas jūs padara par..." (Murmina)

(Laughter)

(Smiekli)

And he said, "What?"

"Par ko?!" viņš jautāja.

And I said, "A psychopath."

Es teicu: "Par psihopātu."

And I said, "I've got a list of psychopathic traits in my pocket.

Es teicu: "Man kabatā ir saraksts ar psihopāta iezīmēm.

Can I go through them with you?"

Vai mēs varētu tās kopīgi caurskatīt?"

And he looked intrigued despite himself,

Lai vai kā, viņš šķita ieintriģēts un teica: "Lai notiek!"

and he said, "Okay, go on."

And I said, "Okay. Grandiose sense of self-worth."

Es teicu: "Tātad, pārspīlēts pašvērtējums,"

Which I have to say, would have been hard for him to deny,

kas, jāsaka, bija grūti noliedzams,

because he was standing under a giant oil painting of himself.

jo viņš stāvēja zem milzīga, eļļas krāsām gleznota sava portreta.

(Laughter)

(Smiekli)

He said, "Well, you've got to believe in you!"

Viņš teica: "Ir jātic pašam sev!"

And I said, "Manipulative."

Un es teicu: "Manipulatīvs."

He said, "That's leadership."

Viņš atbildēja: "Tā ir līderība."

(Laughter)

(Smiekli)

And I said, "Shallow affect,

Es teicu: "Jūtu seklums,

an inability to experience a range of emotions."

nespēja izjust plašu emociju paleti."

He said, "Who wants to be weighed down by some nonsense emotions?"

Viņš teica: "Kurš gan vēlas ļauties kaut kādām muļķīgām emocijām?"

So he was going down the psychopath checklist,

Ejot cauri psihopāta iezīmju kontrolsarakstam,

basically turning it into "Who Moved My Cheese?"

viņš to būtībā pārvērtā par "Kurš pievācis manu sieru?"

(Laughter)

(Smiekli)

But I did notice something happening to me the day I was with Al Dunlap.

Bet es kaut ko ievēroju todien, kad tikos ar Alu Danlapu.

Whenever he said anything to me that was kind of normal --

Kad viņš teica kaut ko tādu, kas šķita normāls,

like he said "no" to juvenile delinquency,

piemēram, viņš atbildēja ar "nē" uz mazgadīgo noziedzību,

he said he got accepted into West Point,

viņš teica, ka bijis uzņemts Vestpointā,

and they don't let delinquents in West Point.

un Vestpointā neuzņem mazgadīgos noziedziniekus.

He said "no" to many short-term marital relationships.

Viņš atbildēja ar "nē" uz daudzām īsām laulībām,

He's only ever been married twice.

viņš ir bijis precējies tikai divreiz.

Admittedly, his first wife cited in her divorce papers

Tiesa, viņa pirmā sieva šķiršanās iesniegumā minēja,

that he once threatened her with a knife

ka viņš viņai vienreiz draudējis ar nazi

and said he always wondered what human flesh tasted like,

un teicis, ka allaž prātojis, kā varētu garšot cilvēka gaļa,

but people say stupid things to each other

bet neveiksmīgās laulībās cilvēki strīda karstumā sarunā visādas muļķības,

in bad marriages in the heat of an argument,

and his second marriage has lasted 41 years.

un viņa otrā laulība bija ilgusi jau 41 gadu.

So whenever he said anything to me that just seemed kind of non-psychopathic,

Ikreiz, kad viņš teica kaut ko, kas nešķita psihopātam raksturīgs,

es nodomāju, ka to nu gan es neminēšu savā grāmatā.

I thought to myself, well I'm not going to put that in my book.

And then I realized that becoming a psychopath spotter

Un tad es sapratu, ka, kļūstot par psihopātu ķērāju,

had kind of turned me a little bit psychopathic.

es pats esmu kļuvis nedaudz psihopātisks.

Because I was desperate to shove him in a box marked "Psychopath."

Jo es izmisīgi centos iedabūt viņu rāmī ar uzrakstu "psihopāts".

I was desperate to define him by his maddest edges.

Es izmisīgi centos parādīt viņu no trakākās puses.

And I realized, my God --

Un es sapratu, ka, ak dievs... esmu to darījis 20 gadu garumā.

this is what I've been doing for 20 years.

It's what all journalists do.

To dara visi žurnālisti.

We travel across the world with our notepads in our hands,

Mēs ceļojam pa visu pasauli ar savām piezīmju grāmatām rokās

and we wait for the gems.

un meklējam dārgakmeņus.

And the gems are always the outermost aspects

Un dārgakmeņi vienmēr ir intervējamā personības galējos punktos.

of our interviewee's personality.

And we stitch them together like medieval monks,

Mēs tos stiķējam kopā kā viduslaiku mūki

and we leave the normal stuff on the floor.

un visu normālo atstājam novārtā.

And you know, this is a country that over-diagnoses

Un, ziniet, šajā valstī dažus psihiskos traucējumus diagnosticē daudz par daudz.

certain mental disorders hugely.

Childhood bipolar --

Maniakālā depresija bērniem –

children as young as four are being labeled bipolar

bērniem pat no četru gadu vecuma nosaka maniakālo depresiju,

because they have temper tantrums,

jo viņiem uznāk dusmu lēkmes,

which scores them high on the bipolar checklist.

kas tiem dod augstu rezultātu maniakālās depresijas testā.

When I got back to London, Tony phoned me.

Kad es atgriezos Londonā, Tonijs man piezvanīja.

He said, "Why haven't you been returning my calls?"

Viņš jautāja: "Kāpēc tu neatbildi uz maniem telefona zvaniem?"

I said, "Well, they say that you're a psychopath."

Es teicu: "Stāsta, ka tu esot psihopāts."

And he said, "I'm not a psychopath."

Un viņš atbildēja: "Es neesmu psihopāts.

He said, "You know what?

Zini, viens no kontrolsaraksta punktiem ir nožēlas trūkums,

One of the items on the checklist is lack of remorse,

but another item on the checklist is cunning, manipulative.

bet vēl cits punkts – viltība, manipulācija.

So when you say you feel remorse for your crime,

Ja saki, ka jūti nožēlu par pastrādāto noziegumu,

they say, 'Typical of the psychopath

viņi saka, ka esi tipisks psihopāts,

to cunningly say he feels remorse when he doesn't.'

kas viltīgi apgalvo, ka nožēlo, kaut patiesībā to nedara.

It's like witchcraft, they turn everything upside-down."

Tas ir kā apburtais loks, viņi visu apgriež otrādi."

He said, "I've got a tribunal coming up.

Viņš teica: "Man drīz būs komisijas noklausīšanās.

Will you come to it?"

Vai atnāksi uz to?"

So I said okay.

Es piekritu.

So I went to his tribunal.

Es aizgāju uz noklausīšanos.

And after 14 years in Broadmoor, they let him go.

Un pēc četrpadsmit Broudmūrā pavadītiem gadiem viņu izlaida.

They decided that he shouldn't be held indefinitely

Viņi nolēma, ka nevajadzētu viņu paturēt visu mūžu tāpēc vien,

because he scores high on a checklist that might mean

ka viņa augstais testa rezultāts varētu nozīmēt,

that he would have a greater than average chance of recidivism.

ka tendence uz recidīvismu viņam ir virs vidējās.

So they let him go.

Tā nu viņu izlaida.

And outside in the corridor he said to me,

Ārpusē koridorā viņš teica: "Zini ko, Džon?

"You know what, Jon?

Everyone's a bit psychopathic."

Mēs visi esam drusku psihopāti."

He said, "You are, I am. Well, obviously I am."

Viņš teica: "Tu esi, es esmu. Es jau nu pavisam noteikti."

I said, "What are you going to do now?"

Es jautāju: "Ko tu tagad darīsi?"

He said, "I'm going to go to Belgium.

Viņš teica: "Es došos uz Beļģiju.

There's a woman there that I fancy.

Tur ir kāda sieviete, kas man patīk.

But she's married, so I'm going to have to get her split up from her husband."

Bet viņa ir precējusies, tāpēc man būs jāizšķir viņa no vīra."

(Laughter)

(Smiekli)

Anyway, that was two years ago,

Bet tas bija pirms diviem gadiem,

and that's where my book ended.

un tur mana grāmata beidzās.

And for the last 20 months, everything was fine.

Pēdējos 20 mēnešus viss bija kārtībā.

Nothing bad happened.

Nenotika nekas slikts.

He was living with a girl outside London.

Viņš dzīvoja ar kādu meiteni Londonā.

He was, according to Brian the Scientologist,

Scientologa Braiena vārdiem runājot,

making up for lost time, which I know sounds ominous,

viņš centās atgūt zaudēto laiku, kas izklausās draudīgi,

but isn't necessarily ominous.

bet varbūt tā nemaz nav.

Unfortunately, after 20 months,

Diemžēl pēc 20 mēnešiem

he did go back to jail for a month.

viņš atkal nonāca uz mēnesi cietumā.

He got into a "fracas" in a bar, he called it.

Viņam gadījās "saķeršanās" kādā bārā, kā viņš to nosauca.

Ended up going to jail for a month, which I know is bad,

Tā nu viņš nonāca cietumā uz mēnesi, kas, protams, ir slikti,

but at least a month implies that whatever the fracas was,

bet mēnesis vismaz nozīmē, ka, lai vai kāda bija saķeršanās,

it wasn't too bad.

tā tomēr nebija pārāk briesmīga.

And then he phoned me.

Un tad viņš man piezvanīja.

And you know what, I think it's right that Tony is out.

Un, ziniet, es domāju, ka ir pareizi, ka Tonijs ir brīvībā.

Because you shouldn't define people by their maddest edges.

Jo nevajadzētu spriest par cilvēkiem no to neprātīgākajām izpausmēm.

And what Tony is, is he's a semi-psychopath.

Tonijs ir puspsihopāts.

He's a gray area in a world that doesn't like gray areas.

Viņš ir pelēkā zona pasaulē, kurai nepatīk pelēkās zonas.

But the gray areas are where you find the complexity.

Bet pelēkās zonas ir tās, kurās var atrast sarežģīto.

It's where you find the humanity,

Tajās slēpjas cilvēcība,

and it's where you find the truth.

un tajās var atrast patiesību.

And Tony said to me,

Tonijs man teica tā:

"Jon, could I buy you a drink in a bar?

"Džon, vai es varētu tev izmaksāt bārā dzērienu?

I just want to thank you for everything you've done for me."

Es vienkārši gribu pateikties par visu, ko tu manā labā esi darījis."

And I didn't go.

Un es neaizgāju.

What would you have done?

Ko būtu darījuši jūs?

Thank you.

Paldies.

(Applause)

(Aplausi)