Strange answers to the psychopath test | Jon Ronson | TED

Translator: Timothy Covell Reviewer: Morton Bast

Prevoditelj: Barbara Dolenčić Recezent: Suzana Baric

Priča ovako počinje: bio sam kod prijateljice

The story starts: I was at a friend's house,

and she had on her shelf a copy of the DSM manual,

i ona je na polici imala DSM priručnik --

which is the manual of mental disorders.

priručnik o mentalnim poremećajima.

It lists every known mental disorder.

To je popis svih poznatih mentalnih poremećaja.

U 50- ima je to bio veoma tanka knjižica.

And it used to be, back in the '50s, a very slim pamphlet.

And then it got bigger and bigger and bigger,

I onda je postajao sve veći i veći,

and now it's 886 pages long.

pa sad ima 886 stranica.

Trenutno broji 374 mentalna poremećaja.

And it lists currently 374 mental disorders.

So I was leafing through it,

Listao sam priručnik

wondering if I had any mental disorders,

pitajući se imam li ja koji mentalni poremećaj

i ispalo je da ih imam 12.

and it turns out I've got 12.

(Laughter)

(Smijeh)

I've got generalized anxiety disorder,

Imam opći anksiozni poremećaj,

which is a given.

to se podrazumijeva.

I've got nightmare disorder,

Imam poremećaj spavanja s noćnim morama,

which is categorized

što je kategorizirano kao

if you have recurrent dreams of being pursued or declared a failure,

stalno sanjanje progonjenja ili nekog neuspjeha --

and all my dreams involve people chasing me down the street

i svi moji snovi uključuju ljude koji me love po ulici

going, "You're a failure!"

pritom govoreći: ''Ti si neuspjeh.''

(Laughter)

(Smijeh)

I've got parent-child relational problems,

Imam problem s odnosom roditelj-dijete,

which I blame my parents for.

za što krivim svoje roditelje.

(Laughter)

(Smijeh)

Šalim se. Ne šalim se.

I'm kidding. I'm not kidding.

I'm kidding.

Ma, šalim se.

And I've got malingering.

Još sam i simulant.

And I think it's actually quite rare

I mislim da je zapravo jako rijetko da je netko

to have both malingering and generalized anxiety disorder,

i simulant i da boluje i od općeg anksioznog poremećaja,

because malingering tends to make me feel very anxious.

zato što me simuliranje čini jako tjeskobnim.

Anyway, I was looking through this book,

I tako sam listao ovu knjigu,

wondering if I was much crazier than I thought I was,

pitajući se jesam li sam luđi nego što sam mislio da jesam,

or maybe it's not a good idea to diagnose yourself with a mental disorder

ili možda nije dobra ideja dijagnosticirati sam sebi mentalne poremećaje

if you're not a trained professional,

ako niste obrazovani stručnjak,

ili možda psihijatrijska profesija ima neobičnu želju

or maybe the psychiatry profession has a kind of strange desire

to label what's essentially normal human behavior as a mental disorder.

etiketirati normalno ljudsko ponašanje kao mentalni poremećaj.

I didn't know which of these was true, but I thought it was kind of interesting,

Nisam znao što je od toga točno,

ali sam mislio da je zanimljivo.

I pomislio sam da bih se trebao susresti s kritičarem psihijatarije

and I thought maybe I should meet a critic of psychiatry

to get their view,

kako bih shvatio njihov pogled.

which is how I ended up having lunch with the Scientologists.

Tako sam završio na ručku sa Scijentolozima.

(Laughter)

It was a man called Brian, who runs a crack team of Scientologists

To je bio Brian,

čovjek koji vodi odličan tim Scijentologa

who are determined to destroy psychiatry wherever it lies.

koji su odlučni uništiti psihijatriju.

They're called the CCHR.

Zovu se CCHR.

And I said to him, "Can you prove to me

Pitao sam ga: ''Možete li mi dokazati

that psychiatry is a pseudo-science that can't be trusted?"

da je psihijatrija kvazi-znanost kojoj se ne može vjerovati?''

A on je rekao: ''Da, možemo ti to dokazati.''

And he said, "Yes, we can prove it to you."

Upitao sam: ''Kako?''

And I said, "How?"

Odgovorio je: ''Upoznat ćemo te s Tonyjem.''

And he said, "We're going to introduce you to Tony."

Ja sam pitao: ''Tko je Tony?''

And I said, "Who's Tony?"

A on je rekao: ''Tony je u Broadmooru."

And he said, "Tony's in Broadmoor."

Now, Broadmoor is Broadmoor Hospital.

Broadmoor je bolnica.

It used to be known as the Broadmoor Asylum for the Criminally Insane.

Prije je bila poznata kao Broadmoor azil za mentalno bolesne kriminalce.

It's where they send the serial killers,

To je mjesto gdje šalju serijske ubojice

i ljude koji ne mogu pomoći sami sebi.

and the people who can't help themselves.

Pitao sam Briana: ''Što je Tony učinio?''

And I said to Brian, "Well, what did Tony do?"

A on je rekao: ''Gotovo ništa.'

And he said, "Hardly anything.

Pretukao je nekoga ili tako nešto

He beat someone up or something,

i odlučio je odglumiti da je lud kako bi izbjegao zatvorsku kaznu.

and he decided to fake madness to get out of a prison sentence.

Ali predobro je odglumio i sad je zapeo u Broadmooru

But he faked it too well, and now he's stuck in Broadmoor

i nitko ne želi povjerovati da je zdrav.

and nobody will believe he's sane.

Do you want us to try and get you into Broadmoor to meet Tony?"

Želiš da te pokušamo ubaciti u Broadmoor da upoznaš Tonyja?

Rekao sam: ''Da, molim te.''

So I said, "Yes, please."

Ušao sam na vlak za Broadmoor.

So I got the train to Broadmoor.

I began to yawn uncontrollably around Kempton Park,

Počeo sam nekontrolirano zijevati negdje kod Kempton Parka,

što navodno čine i psi kad su nervozni --

which apparently is what dogs also do when anxious,

they yawn uncontrollably.

nekontrolirano zijevaju.

And we got to Broadmoor.

I stigli smo u Broadmoor.

And I got taken through gate after gate after gate after gate

Vodili su me kroz niz vrata, jedna za drugima,

into the wellness center, which is where you get to meet the patients.

do wellness centra

gdje možete upoznati pacijente.

It looks like a giant Hampton Inn.

Izgleda kao veliki hotel Hampton Inn.

It's all peach and pine and calming colors.

Posvuda su boja breskve, borova i ostale umirujuće boje.

And the only bold colors are the reds of the panic buttons.

I jedine žarke boje su crveni gumbi za uzbunu.

Pacijenti su počeli dolaziti.

And the patients started drifting in.

Svi su bili prilično debeli i obučeni u trenirke

And they were quite overweight and wearing sweatpants,

i izgledi su pitomo.

and quite docile-looking.

And Brian the Scientologist whispered to me,

Scijentolog Brian šapnuo mi je:

''Pod lijekovima su'',

"They're medicated,"

što je za scijentologe najveće zlo na svijetu,

which, to the Scientologists, is like the worst evil in the world,

but I'm thinking it's probably a good idea.

ali ja sam mislio da je to vjerojatno dobra ideja.

(Laughter)

(Smijeh)

And then Brian said, "Here's Tony."

Tad je Brain rekao: ''Evo Tonya.''

Ušao je čovjek

And a man was walking in.

koji nije bio debeo, bio je u vrlo dobroj fizičkoj formi.

And he wasn't overweight, he was in very good physical shape.

And he wasn't wearing sweatpants,

I nije bio obučen u trenirku,

he was wearing a pinstripe suit.

već je nosio odijelo na prugice.

And he had his arm outstretched

Ispružio je ruku

like someone out of The Apprentice.

poput nekog iz emisije Pripravnik.

He looked like a man who wanted to wear an outfit

Izgledao je kao čovjek koji želi nositi odijelo

that would convince me that he was very sane.

kako bi me uvjerio da je potpuno zdrav.

Sjeo je.

And he sat down.

And I said, "So is it true that you faked your way in here?"

Pitao sam ga: ''Je li istina da si odglumio kako bi došao ovdje?''

Odgovorio je: ''Da. Da. Zbilja. Pretukao sam nekoga kad mi je bilo 17.

And he said, "Yep. Yep. Absolutely. I beat someone up when I was 17.

U zatvoru sam čekao suđenje

And I was in prison awaiting trial,

and my cellmate said to me,

kad mi je moj cimer iz ćelije rekao:

'You know what you have to do?

''Znaš li što moraš napraviti'?

Fake madness.

Glumiti da si lud.

Reci im da si lud. Poslat će te u neku udobnu bolnicu.

Tell them you're mad, you'll get sent to some cushy hospital.

Sestre će ti donositi pizze.

Nurses will bring you pizzas, you'll have your own PlayStation.'"

Imat ćeš svoj Playstation.''

I said, "Well, how did you do it?"

Pa sam ga pitao: ''I, kako si to učinio?''

He said, "Well, I asked to see the prison psychiatrist.

Odgovorio je: ''Javio sam se zatvorskom psihijatru.

A baš sam bio pogledao film ''Fatalna nesreća"

And I'd just seen a film called 'Crash,'

in which people get sexual pleasure from crashing cars into walls.

u kojem ljude seksualno uzbuđuje zalijetanje autom u zid.

Pa sam rekao psihijatru:

So I said to the psychiatrist,

''Seksualno me uzbuđuje zalijetanje autom u zid.''

'I get sexual pleasure from crashing cars into walls.'"

Pitao sam ga: ''Što još?''

And I said, "What else?"

He said, "Oh, yeah. I told the psychiatrist

On je rekao: ''O, da. Rekao sam psihijatru

da želim gledati žene kako umiru

that I wanted to watch women as they died,

because it would make me feel more normal."

zato što se onda osjećam normalnijim.''

I said, "Where'd you get that from?"

Zatim sam pitao: ''Otkud ti ta ideja?''

He said, "Oh, from a biography of Ted Bundy that they had

I on je odgovorio: ''Iz biografije Teda Bundyja

at the prison library."

koja je bila u zatvorskoj knjižnici.''

Rekao mi je da je predobro odglumio ludost.

Anyway, he faked madness too well, he said.

And they didn't send him to some cushy hospital.

I nisu ga poslali u neku udobnu bolnicu.

Poslali su ga u Broadmoor.

They sent him to Broadmoor.

And the minute he got there,

Istog trena kad je stigao,

said he took one look at the place, asked to see the psychiatrist,

pogledao je to mjesto, zatražio razgovor sa psihijatrom

i rekao: ''Došlo je velikog nesporazuma.

said, "There's been a terrible misunderstanding.

Ja nisam mentalno bolestan."

I'm not mentally ill."

Pitao sam: ''Koliko dugo si ovdje?''

I said, "How long have you been here for?"

Odgovorio je: ''Da sam u zatvoru služio kaznu za svoj zločin,

He said, "Well, if I'd just done my time in prison

for the original crime, I'd have got five years.

dobio bih pet godina.

I've been in Broadmoor for 12 years."

U Broadmooru sam 12 godina."

Tony je rekao da je mnogo teže uvjeriti ljude da si normalan,

Tony said that it's a lot harder to convince people you're sane

nego uvjeriti ih da si lud.

than it is to convince them you're crazy.

He said, "I thought the best way to seem normal

Rekao je: ''Mislio sam da je najbolji način da izgledam normalno

would be to talk to people normally about normal things

da razgovaram s ljudima na normalan način o normalnim stvarima

poput nogometa ili o televizijskom programu.¸

like football or what's on TV.

Pretplaćen sam na New Scientist

I subscribe to New Scientist,

and recently they had an article

i nedavno su objavili članak

about how the U.S. Army was training bumblebees to sniff out explosives.

o tome kako američka vojska trenira bumbare da nanjuše eksploziv.

So I said to a nurse,

Rekao sam sestri:

'Did you know that the U.S. Army is training bumblebees

''Znaš li da američka vojska trenira bumbare

to sniff out explosives?'

da nanjuše ekspoloziv?''

Kad sam čitao svoje nalaze,

When I read my medical notes, I saw they'd written:

vidio sam da su napisali:

''Vjeruje da bumbari mogu nanjušiti eksploziv.''

'Believes bees can sniff out explosives.'"

(Laughter)

Rekao je: ''Znaš, uvijek traže

He said, "You know, they're always looking out for nonverbal clues

neverbalne tragove mog mentalnog stanja.

to my mental state.

Ali kako sjediti na normalan način?

But how do you sit in a sane way?

How do you cross your legs in a sane way?

Kako prekrižiti noge na normalan način?

It's just impossible."

To je jednostavno nemoguće.''

When Tony said that to me,

Kad mi je to Tony rekao,

I thought to myself, "Am I sitting like a journalist?

pomislio sam: ''Sjedim li kao novinar?

Jesam li prekrižio noge kao novinar?''

Am I crossing my legs like a journalist?"

Rekao je: ''Znaš, s jedne mi je strane davitelj,

He said, "You know, I've got the Stockwell Strangler on one side of me,

and I've got the 'Tiptoe Through the Tulips' rapist

a s druge strane silovatelj.

on the other side of me.

So I tend to stay in my room a lot because I find them quite frightening.

Bojim ih se pa zato često ostajem u svojoj sobi.

And they take that as a sign of madness.

A oni to vide kao znak ludosti.

They say it proves that I'm aloof and grandiose."

Kažu da to dokazuje da sam ravnodušan i da patim od osjećaja grandioznosti.''

Samo je u Broadmooru znak ludosti to što se ne želite družiti

So, only in Broadmoor would not wanting to hang out with serial killers

be a sign of madness.

sa serijskim ubojicama.

Meni se činilo potpuno normalnim -- ali, što sam ja znao?

Anyway, he seemed completely normal to me, but what did I know?

Kad sam došao doma, poslao sam e-mail njegovu liječniku, Anthonyju Madenu.

And when I got home I emailed his clinician, Anthony Maden.

Pitao sam ga: "Što je na stvari?"

I said, "What's the story?"

And he said, "Yep. We accept that Tony faked madness

Odgovorio je: "Prihvaćamo da je Tony glumio da je lud kako bi izbjegao zatvorsku kaznu

to get out of a prison sentence, because his hallucinations --

zato što su njegove halucinacije koje su se činile klišejem

that had seemed quite cliche to begin with --

just vanished the minute he got to Broadmoor.

jednostavno nestale istog trena kad je stigao u Broadmoor.

However, we have assessed him,

No, prošao je našu procjenu

and we've determined that what he is

i zaključili smo da je on psihopat.''

is a psychopath."

And in fact, faking madness

U biti, glumljenje ludosti

je upravo podmukao i manipulativan čin psihopata.

is exactly the kind of cunning and manipulative act of a psychopath.

It's on the checklist: cunning, manipulative.

To je na listi: podmukao i manipulativan.

Dakle, glumljenje da ste ludi

So, faking your brain going wrong

dokaz je da je vaš mozak otišao k vragu.

is evidence that your brain has gone wrong.

And I spoke to other experts,

Razgovarao sam i s drugim stručnjacima

and they said the pinstripe suit -- classic psychopath --

i rekli su: "Prugasto odijelo -- klasični psihopat.

speaks to items one and two on the checklist:

Doprinosi prvoj i drugoj stvari na popisu --

rječitost, površan šarm i grandiozan osjećaj samovrijednosti.

glibness, superficial charm and grandiose sense of self-worth.

And I said, "Well, but why didn't he hang out with the other patients?"

Rekao sam: ''Pa što ako se nije družio s ostalim zatvorenicima?''

Classic psychopath -- it speaks to grandiosity and also lack of empathy.

Klasični psihopat -- objašnjava osjećaj grandioznosti i nedostatak empatije.

So all the things that had seemed most normal about Tony

Sve stvari koje su se činile najnormalnijima u vezi Tonyja

was evidence, according to his clinician,

bile su dokaz, prema njegovim liječnicima,

da je on lud.

that he was mad in this new way.

He was a psychopath.

On je psihopat.

And his clinician said to me, "If you want to know more about psychopaths,

Njegovi liječnici rekli su mi:

''Ako želiš znati više o psihopatima,

you can go on a psychopath-spotting course

možeš ići na tečaj uočavanja psihopata

run by Robert Hare, who invented the psychopath checklist."

koji vodi Robert Hare koji je smislio listu obilježja psihopata."

So I did.

Pa sam to i učinio.

I went on a psychopath-spotting course,

Otišao sam na tečaj uočavanja psihopata,

and I am now a certified --

i sad sam potvrđeni --

i moram reći, iznimno vješt --

and I have to say, extremely adept -- psychopath spotter.

uočavatelj psihopata.

Evo statistike:

So, here's the statistics:

Jedan od sto normalnih ljudi je psihopat.

One in a hundred regular people is a psychopath.

U ovoj prostoriji je 1,500 ljudi.

So there's 1,500 people in his room.

Petnaest od vas su psihopati.

Fifteen of you are psychopaths.

Taj iznos raste do četiri posto

Although that figure rises to four percent of CEOs and business leaders,

među menadžerima i šefovima.

so I think there's a very good chance

Zato mislim da je velika vjerojatnost

there's about 30 or 40 psychopaths in this room.

da je u ovoj prostoriji 30 ili 40 psihopata.

It could be carnage by the end of the night.

Moglo bi doći do pokolja do kraja večeri.

(Laughter)

(Smijeh) (Smije se)

Hare said the reason why is because capitalism at its most ruthless

Hare kaže da je to zato što nemilosrdni kapitalizam

rewards psychopathic behavior --

nagrađuje psihopatsko ponašanje--

the lack of empathy, the glibness,

nedostatak empatije, rječitost,

cunning, manipulative.

prepredenost, manipulativnost.

In fact, capitalism, perhaps at its most remorseless,

U biti, kapitalizam je, u svom najnemilosrdnijem obliku,

is a physical manifestation of psychopathy.

fizička manifestacija psihopatije.

To je oblik psihopatije

It's like a form of psychopathy that's come down to affect us all.

koji će imati utjecaja na sve nas.

Hare said, "You know what? Forget about some guy at Broadmoor

Hare mi je rekao: ''Znaš što? Zaboravi na tog tipa u Broadmooru

who may or may not have faked madness.

koji možda jest ili možda nije glumio da je lud.

Who cares? That's not a big story.

Koga briga? To nije velika priča."

The big story," he said, "is corporate psychopathy.

Rekao je: "Velika priča je korporativna psihopatija.

You want to go and interview yourself some corporate psychopaths."

Trebaš intervjuirati korporativne psihopate.''

So I gave it a try. I wrote to the Enron people.

Pa sam pokušao. Pisao sam ljudima u Enronu.

I said, "Could I come and interview you in prison,

Pitao sam: ''Mogu li doći i intervjuirati vas u zatvoru

da saznam jeste li psihopati?''

to find out it you're psychopaths?"

Nisu mi odgovorili.

(Laughter)

And they didn't reply.

(Laughter)

So I changed tack.

Pa sam promijenio taktiku.

I emailed "Chainsaw Al" Dunlap,

Poslao sam e-mail "Chainsaw Al" Dunlapu

the asset stripper from the 1990s.

koji je rasprodavao imovinu 1990-ih.

He would come into failing businesses

Preuzeo bi propadajuće tvrtke i zatvorio 30 posto proizvodnje,

and close down 30 percent of the workforce,

just turn American towns into ghost towns.

pretvorio bi američke gradove u gradove duhova.

And I emailed him and I said,

Poslao sam mu e-mail i rekao:

"I believe you may have a very special brain anomaly

''Vjerujem da imate vrlo posebnu anomaliju mozga

koja Vas čini posebnim

that makes you ... special,

and interested in the predatory spirit, and fearless.

i zato Vas zanima predatorski duh i neustrašivost.

Can I come and interview you about your special brain anomaly?"

Mogu li doći i intervjuirati Vas

o Vašoj posebnoj anomaliji mozga?''

A on je rekao: ''Dođi.''

And he said, "Come on over!"

(Laughter)

So I went to Al Dunlap's grand Florida mansion.

I tako sam otišao u veliku vilu Ala Dunlapa na Floridi

It was filled with sculptures of predatory animals.

koja je bila puna skulptura grabežljivih životinja.

There were lions and tigers -- he was taking me through the garden --

Ondje su bili lavovi i tigrovi.

Vodio me kroz vrt.

there were falcons and eagles,

Ondje su bili sokoli i orlovi.

he was saying, "Over there you've got sharks and --"

Rekao mi je: ''Ondje su morski psi.''

To je govorio na nešto manje otmjen način.

he was saying this in a less effeminate way --

"You've got more sharks and you've got tigers."

''Ondje ima još morskih pasa i tigrova.''

It was like Narnia.

Bilo je kao u Narniji.

(Laughter)

(Smijeh)

And then we went into his kitchen.

Onda smo otišli u njegovu kuhinju.

Now, Al Dunlap would be brought in to save failing companies,

Ala Dunlapa pozvali bi kako bi spasio propadajuće tvrtke.

he'd close down 30 percent of the workforce.

A on bi zatvorio 30 posto proizvodnje.

And he'd quite often fire people with a joke.

I vrlo često bi otpustio ljude uz šalu.

Like, for instance, one famous story about him,

Na primjer, zna se da mu je netko prišao

somebody came up to him and said, "I've just bought myself a new car."

i rekao: ''Upravo sam si kupio novi auto.''

And he said, "Well, you may have a new car,

I on bi mu rekao: ''Možda imaš novi auto,

but I'll tell you what you don't have -- a job."

ali reći ću ti što nemaš, posao.''

So in his kitchen --

he was in there with his wife, Judy, and his bodyguard, Sean --

Dakle, u kuhinji-- stajao je tamo sa svojom ženom, Judy,

i tjelohraniteljem Seanom. Rekao sam: ''Znate kako sam u svom e-mailu rekao

and I said, "You know how I said in my email

da Vi možda imate posebnu anomaliju mozga koja Vas čini posebnim?''

that you might have a special brain anomaly that makes you special?"

He said, "Yeah, it's an amazing theory, it's like Star Trek.

Odgovorio je: ''Da, to je nevjerojatna teorija.

Kao u Zvjezdanim stazama. Idete tamo gdje ni jedan čovjek prije nije išao."

You're going where no man has gone before."

And I said, "Well --" (Clears throat)

Ja sam rekao: ''Pa, neki psiholozi bi mogli reći

(Laughter)

Some psychologists might say

that this makes you --" (Mumbles)

da Vas to čini...'' (Mrmljanje)

(Laughter)

(Smijeh)

And he said, "What?"

Rekao je: ''Što?''

Odgovorio sam: ''Psihopatom.''

And I said, "A psychopath."

And I said, "I've got a list of psychopathic traits in my pocket.

Dodao sam: ''Imam popis psihopatskih karakteristika u svom džepu.

Can I go through them with you?"

Mogu li s Vama proći kroz njih?''

And he looked intrigued despite himself,

Izgledao je zaintrigirano

and he said, "Okay, go on."

i rekao: ''U redu, nastavite.''

And I said, "Okay. Grandiose sense of self-worth."

Krenuo sam: ''U redu. Grandiozan osjećaj samovrijednosti.''

Which I have to say, would have been hard for him to deny,

To bi mu bilo teško zanijekati

because he was standing under a giant oil painting of himself.

zato što je stajao ispod ogromne slike samoga sebe.

(Laughter)

(Smijeh)

He said, "Well, you've got to believe in you!"

Rekao je: ''Pa, moraš vjerovati u sebe!''

And I said, "Manipulative."

Nastavio sam: ''Manipulativnost.''

He said, "That's leadership."

On je rekao: ''To je vodstvo.''

(Laughter)

And I said, "Shallow affect,

A ja sam rekao: ''Površnost:

nesposobnost osjećati široki spektar emocija.''

an inability to experience a range of emotions."

He said, "Who wants to be weighed down by some nonsense emotions?"

On je rekao: ''Tko želi da ga sputavaju besmislene emocije?''

I tako je prolazio kroz popis obilježja psihopata,

So he was going down the psychopath checklist,

basically turning it into "Who Moved My Cheese?"

i zapravo je sve postalo slično čitanju motivacijske knjige.

(Laughter)

(Smijeh)

But I did notice something happening to me the day I was with Al Dunlap.

No, primjetio sam da mi se nešto dogodilo tog dana koji sam proveo s Alom Dunlopom.

Whenever he said anything to me that was kind of normal --

Kad god bi mi rekao bilo što što je donekle normalno --

like he said "no" to juvenile delinquency,

kao što je govorio protiv maloljetničke delikvencije.

he said he got accepted into West Point,

Pričao je da su ga primili u West Point,

and they don't let delinquents in West Point.

i delikvente ne primaju u West Point.

He said "no" to many short-term marital relationships.

Ne slaže se s kratkotrajnim brakovima.

He's only ever been married twice.

On se ženio samo dva puta.

Njegova prva žena navela je u papirima za razvod

Admittedly, his first wife cited in her divorce papers

that he once threatened her with a knife

da joj je jedanput prijetio nožem

and said he always wondered what human flesh tasted like,

i rekao da ga je oduvijek zanimalo kakvog je okusa ljudsko meso,

ali ljudi si kažu gluposti u lošim brakovima u žaru svađe.

but people say stupid things to each other

in bad marriages in the heat of an argument,

Njegov drugi brak trajao je 41 godinu.

and his second marriage has lasted 41 years.

Kad god bi mi rekao nešto što mi se nije činilo psihopatskim,

So whenever he said anything to me that just seemed kind of non-psychopathic,

pomislio sam kako to neću napisati u svojoj knjizi.

I thought to myself, well I'm not going to put that in my book.

And then I realized that becoming a psychopath spotter

I onda sam shvatio da me činjenica da sam postao uočavatelj psihopata

i samog pomalo pretvorila u psihopata.

had kind of turned me a little bit psychopathic.

Because I was desperate to shove him in a box marked "Psychopath."

Zato što sam očajnički htio prikazati ga kao psihopata.

I was desperate to define him by his maddest edges.

Očajnički sam želio definirati ga samo njegovim najluđim crtama.

And I realized, my God --

I shvatio sam da je to ono što radim već 20 godina.

this is what I've been doing for 20 years.

It's what all journalists do.

To je ono što svi novinari rade.

We travel across the world with our notepads in our hands,

Putujemo svijetom s našim notesima u rukama

and we wait for the gems.

i čekamo bisere.

A biseri su uvijek najdalji aspekti

And the gems are always the outermost aspects

of our interviewee's personality.

osobnosti onoga koga intervjuiramo.

And we stitch them together like medieval monks,

Mi ih šivamo kao srednjovjekovni redovnici.

and we leave the normal stuff on the floor.

I ostavljamo normalne stvari na podu.

A ovo je zemlja koja dijagnosticira previše mentalnih poremećaja.

And you know, this is a country that over-diagnoses

certain mental disorders hugely.

Childhood bipolar --

Bipolarna djeca -- već i četverogodišnjoj djeci

children as young as four are being labeled bipolar

dijagnosticira se bipolarni poremećaj

because they have temper tantrums,

zato što imaju napadaje bijesa,

which scores them high on the bipolar checklist.

što ih pozicionira visoko na listi bipolarnih obilježja.

When I got back to London, Tony phoned me.

Kad sam se vratio u London, Tony me nazvao.

He said, "Why haven't you been returning my calls?"

Rekao je: ''Zašto mi ne odgovoraš na pozive?''

I said, "Well, they say that you're a psychopath."

Rekao sam: ''Pa, kažu da si psihopat.''

And he said, "I'm not a psychopath."

Odgovorio je: ''Nisam psihopat.''

He said, "You know what?

Nastavio je, ''Znaš što, jedno od obilježja na popisu jest nedostatak žaljenja,

One of the items on the checklist is lack of remorse,

but another item on the checklist is cunning, manipulative.

ali druga je karakteristika prepredenost, manipulativnost.

So when you say you feel remorse for your crime,

Pa kad kažeš da osjećaš žaljenje zbog svog zločina,

they say, 'Typical of the psychopath

oni kažu: ''Tipično za psihopata

to cunningly say he feels remorse when he doesn't.'

da tako prepredeno kaže da osjeća žaljenje kad to ne osjeća.''

It's like witchcraft, they turn everything upside-down."

To je poput vračanja. Sve izokrenu.

Rekao je: ''Imam saslušanje uskoro.

He said, "I've got a tribunal coming up.

Will you come to it?"

Hoćeš li doći?''

Rekao sam da hoću.

So I said okay.

So I went to his tribunal.

Otišao sam na njegovo saslušanje.

And after 14 years in Broadmoor, they let him go.

Nakon 14 godina u Broadmooru, pustili su ga.

Odlučili su da ne bi trebao vječno ostati ondje

They decided that he shouldn't be held indefinitely

because he scores high on a checklist that might mean

jer ima veliki broj bodova na popisu

that he would have a greater than average chance of recidivism.

što bi moglo značiti da su šanse za recidiv veće od prosjeka.

So they let him go.

Pa su ga pustili.

And outside in the corridor he said to me,

Na hodniku mi je rekao:

"You know what, Jon?

''Znaš što, Jon?'

Svatko je barem malo psihopat."

Everyone's a bit psychopathic."

He said, "You are, I am. Well, obviously I am."

Rekao je: "Ti jesi. Ja jesam. Ja očito jesam.''

Pitao sam ga: ''Što ćeš sad učiniti?''

I said, "What are you going to do now?"

Odgovorio je: ''Idem u Belgiju

He said, "I'm going to go to Belgium.

There's a woman there that I fancy.

zato što je tamo žena koja mi se sviđa.

But she's married, so I'm going to have to get her split up from her husband."

Ali udana je pa ću je morati razdvojiti od muža."

(Smijeh)

(Laughter)

To se dogodilo prije dvije godine

Anyway, that was two years ago,

and that's where my book ended.

i tu je moja knjiga završila.

And for the last 20 months, everything was fine.

I u posljednjih 20 mjeseci sve je bilo dobro.

Ništa loše se nije dogodilo.

Nothing bad happened.

He was living with a girl outside London.

On je živio s djevojkom u predgrađu Londona.

He was, according to Brian the Scientologist,

Pokušavao je, prema scijentologu Brianu,

making up for lost time, which I know sounds ominous,

nadoknaditi propušteno vrijeme-- što znam da zvuči zloslutno,

but isn't necessarily ominous.

ali nije nužno tako.

Na žalost, nakon 20 mjeseci,

Unfortunately, after 20 months,

he did go back to jail for a month.

vratio se u zatvor na mjesec dana.

He got into a "fracas" in a bar, he called it.

Upao je u gungulu, kako je on to nazvao --

završio u zatvoru na mjesec dana,

Ended up going to jail for a month, which I know is bad,

što znam da je loše,

but at least a month implies that whatever the fracas was,

ali barem tih mjesec dana označava da kakva god to gungula bila,

it wasn't too bad.

da nije bilo tako strašno.

I onda me nazvao.

And then he phoned me.

And you know what, I think it's right that Tony is out.

Mislim da je ispravno što je Tony na slobodi.

Zato što ne bismo smjeli definirati ljude prema njihovim najluđim obilježjima.

Because you shouldn't define people by their maddest edges.

And what Tony is, is he's a semi-psychopath.

A Tony je polu-psihopat.

On je sredina u svijetu koji ne voli sredinu.

He's a gray area in a world that doesn't like gray areas.

Ali u sredini nalazimo kompleksnost,

But the gray areas are where you find the complexity.

ondje nalazimo ljudskost

It's where you find the humanity,

and it's where you find the truth.

i tamo nalazimo istinu.

And Tony said to me,

Tony me pitao:

"Jon, could I buy you a drink in a bar?

''Jon, mogu li te počastiti pićem u kafiću?

I just want to thank you for everything you've done for me."

Želim ti se zahvaliti za sve što si učinio za mene.''

And I didn't go.

Ali nisam otišao. Što biste vi učinili?

What would you have done?

Thank you.

Hvala vam.

(Applause)

(Pljesak)