The psychology of evil | Philip Zimbardo

Translator: Socorro Rodríguez Holguín Reviewer: Xusto Rodriguez

Philosophers, dramatists, theologians

Filósofos, dramaturgos, teólogos

have grappled with this question for centuries:

enfróntanse a esta cuestión desde hai séculos:

what makes people go wrong?

que leva á xente a facer o mal?

Curiosamente, eu véñome preguntando isto desde que era un neno.

Interestingly, I asked this question when I was a little kid.

Medrei no South Bronx, un gueto de Nova York,

I grew up in the South Bronx, inner-city ghetto in New York,

e estaba rodeado polo mal,

and I was surrounded by evil,

as all kids are who grew up in an inner city.

como todos os nenos que medran nun barrio marxinal.

E tiña amigos que eran bos rapaces,

And I had friends who were really good kids,

who lived out the Dr. Jekyll Mr. Hyde scenario -- Robert Louis Stevenson.

que facían realidade o Dr. Jekyll e Mr. Hyde de R.L. Stevenson.

That is, they took drugs, got in trouble, went to jail.

Consumían drogas, metíanse en liortas, ían parar á cadea.

Algúns mataron,

Some got killed, and some did it without drug assistance.

e algúns mesmo o fixeron sen drogarse.

So when I read Robert Louis Stevenson, that wasn't fiction.

Así que cando lin a Stevenson, para min non era ficción.

A única pregunta é, que había naquel caldo?

The only question is, what was in the juice?

And more importantly, that line between good and evil --

E o máis importante: esa liña entre o ben e o mal

--que os privilexiados queren pensar que é fixa e impermeable,

which privileged people like to think is fixed and impermeable,

with them on the good side, the others on the bad side --

con eles no lado bo, e os outros no malo--

I knew that line was movable, and it was permeable.

eu sei que é móbil, permeable.

As boas persoas poden verse inducidas a cruzar a liña,

Good people could be seduced across that line,

and under good and some rare circumstances, bad kids could recover

e en condicións adecuadas e infrecuentes, os nenos malos poden recuperarse

con axuda, con corrección, con rehabilitación.

with help, with reform, with rehabilitation.

Xa que logo, quero empezar con esta preciosa ilusión

So I want to begin with this wonderful illusion

by [Dutch] artist M.C. Escher.

do artista holandés M.C. Escher.

If you look at it and focus on the white, what you see is a world full of angels.

Se a miran enfocando no branco, verán un mundo cheo de anxos.

But let's look more deeply, and as we do,

Pero miremos con máis atención, e ao facelo,

what appears is the demons, the devils in the world.

aparecen os diaños, os demos do mundo.

That tells us several things.

Isto dinos varias cousas.

One, the world is, was, will always be filled with good and evil,

Unha, que o mundo está, estivo, e estará cheo de bondade e de maldade,

because good and evil is the yin and yang of the human condition.

porque o ben e o mal son o yin e o yang da condición humana.

It tells me something else.

Pero a min dime algo máis.

If you remember, God's favorite angel was Lucifer.

Como vostedes saben, o anxo preferido de Deus era Lucifer.

Apparently, Lucifer means "the light."

Seica Lucifer significa "Portador da luz".

It also means "the morning star," in some scripture.

Significa tamén, nalgún texto, "luceiro da mañá".

And apparently, he disobeyed God,

E disque

desobedeceu a Deus,

and that's the ultimate disobedience to authority.

o que vén sendo a máxima desobediencia á autoridade.

And when he did, Michael, the archangel, was sent to kick him out of heaven

E cando o fixo, Deus mandou ao arcanxo Miguel

para expulsalo do ceo canda os demais anxos caídos.

along with the other fallen angels.

And so Lucifer descends into hell, becomes Satan,

E Lucifer baixou aos infernos, e converteuse en Satán,

converteuse no demo, e o mal apareceu no Universo.

becomes the devil, and the force of evil in the universe begins.

Paradoxalmente, Deus foi quen creou o inferno,

Paradoxically, it was God who created hell as a place to store evil.

un lugar onde encerrar o mal.

Non conseguíu mantelo dentro.

He didn't do a good job of keeping it there though.

So, this arc of the cosmic transformation of God's favorite angel into the Devil,

Así, este arco da transformación cósmica do anxo preferido de Deus no demo,

para min define o marco para comprender os seres humanos

for me, sets the context for understanding human beings

who are transformed from good, ordinary people into perpetrators of evil.

que pasan de ser boas persoas, xente normal, a ser axentes do mal.

So the Lucifer effect, although it focuses on the negatives --

O efecto Lucifer, aínda que se centra no negativo,

the negatives that people can become,

no negativa que pode volverse a xente,

not the negatives that people are --

non no negativa que é a xente,

leads me to a psychological definition.

lévame a unha definición psicolóxica.

Evil is the exercise of power.

O mal é un exercicio de poder.

And that's the key: it's about power.

E esta é a chave: isto vai de poder.

Para danar psicoloxicamente ás persoas á mantenta,

To intentionally harm people psychologically,

to hurt people physically, to destroy people mortally, or ideas,

para mancalas, para destruír as persoas ou as ideas,

and to commit crimes against humanity.

e para cometer crimes contra a humanidade.

Se meten 'mal' en Google, unha palabra que xa debería estar esgotada,

If you Google "evil," a word that should surely have withered by now,

you come up with 136 million hits in a third of a second.

sairanlles máis de 136 millóns de entradas en 300 milisegundos.

Hai uns poucos anos, seguro que vostedes, coma min, quedaron conmocionados

A few years ago -- I am sure all of you were shocked, as I was,

with the revelation of American soldiers abusing prisoners in a strange place

ao saberen que soldados estadounidenses abusaran de prisioneiros nun lugar estraño

nunha guerra controvertida, Abu Ghraib, en Irak.

in a controversial war, Abu Ghraib in Iraq.

Tratábase de homes e mulleres

And these were men and women

que someteron aos prisioneiros a incribles humillacións.

who were putting prisoners through unbelievable humiliation.

Eu quedei conmocionado, pero non sorprendido,

I was shocked, but I wasn't surprised,

because I had seen those same visual parallels

porque xa vira imaxes semellantes

cando fun supervisor de prisión no Estudo da Prisión de Stanford.

when I was the prison superintendent of the Stanford Prison Study.

Immediately the Bush administration military said what?

Que dixo inmediatamente a Administración militar de Bush?

O que di calquera Administración cando xorde un escándalo

What all administrations say when there's a scandal:

"Non nos culpen. Non é o sistema. Son unhas poucas mazás podres,

"Don't blame us. It's not the system.

It's the few bad apples, the few rogue soldiers."

uns poucos soldados ruíns".

My hypothesis is, American soldiers are good, usually.

A miña hipótese é que os soldados estadounidenses son, polo xeral, bos.

Maybe it was the barrel that was bad.

Se cadra o podre era o cesto.

But how am I going to deal with that hypothesis?

Pero como contrastar esta hipótese?

Eu actuei como perito para un dos gardas,

I became an expert witness for one of the guards,

Sergeant Chip Frederick, and in that position,

o sarxento Chip Frederick, e por esa vía,

I had access to the dozen investigative reports.

tiven acceso a ducias de informes de investigación.

I had access to him.

Tiven acceso a el.

I could study him, have him come to my home, get to know him,

Puiden estudalo, leveino á miña casa, coñecino,

do psychological analysis to see, was he a good apple or bad apple.

fíxenlle avaliacións psicolóxicas para ver se era unha mazá sa ou podre.

And thirdly, I had access to all of the 1,000 pictures

E, en terceiro lugar, tiven acceso á totalidade das 1.000 fotografías

que sacaran os soldados.

that these soldiers took.

Eran fotos de natureza violenta ou sexual.

These pictures are of a violent or sexual nature.

All of them come from the cameras of American soldiers.

Todas sacadas coas cámaras dos soldados estadounidenses.

Because everybody has a digital camera or cell phone camera,

Porque todo o mundo ten unha cámara dixital ou un móbil,

they took pictures of everything, more than 1,000.

sacaron fotos de todo, máis de mil.

E eu organiceinas en varias categorías.

And what I've done is I organized them into various categories.

Pero isto fixérono policías militares estadounidenses, reservistas do exército.

But these are by United States military police, army reservists.

They are not soldiers prepared for this mission at all.

Non eran para nada soldados adestrados para esta misión.

E todo isto pasou nun único lugar, a Galería 1-A,

And it all happened in a single place, Tier 1-A, on the night shift.

na quenda de noite. Por que?

Why?

A Galería 1-A era o centro da intelixencia militar.

Tier 1-A was the center for military intelligence.

It was the interrogation hold.

Era a central de interrogatorios.

The CIA was there.

Alí estaba a CIA.

Interrogators from Titan Corporation, all there,

E interrogadores da Titan Corporation, todos alí,

E non conseguían información sobre a insurrección.

and they're getting no information about the insurgency.

So they're going to put pressure on these soldiers,

Así que presionaban a estes soldados,

policías militares, para que cruzaran a liña,

military police, to cross the line,

déronlles permiso para quebrar a vontade dos inimigos,

give them permission to break the will of the enemy,

para preparalos para os interrogatorios, para abrandalos,

to prepare them for interrogation, to soften them up,

to take the gloves off.

para que quitasen os guantes. Todo eufemismos,

Those are the euphemisms, and this is how it was interpreted.

e así é como se interpretaron.

Let's go down to that dungeon.

Entremos nos calabozos.

(Typewriting)

(Son de máquina de escribir)

[Abusos na Prisión de Abu Ghraib, Irak, 2003. Fotografías dos policías militares]

[Abu Ghraib Iraq Prison Abuses 2008 Military Police Guards' Photos]

[Estas imaxes inclúen espidos e contidos violentos]

[The following images include nudity and graphic depictions of violence]

(disparo de cámara)

(Camera shutter sounds)

(golpes xordos)

(Thuds)

(Camera shutter)

(disparos de cámara)

(Camera shutter)

(disparo de cámara)

(respiración)

(Breathing)

(campás)

(Bells)

(Bells end)

Arrepiante.

So, pretty horrific.

Esta unha das... representacións gráficas do mal.

That's one of the visual illustrations of evil.

E non se lles debe escapar que

And it should not have escaped you

a razón de que eu emparellara ao prisioneiro cos brazos abertos

that the reason I paired the prisoner with his arms out

with Leonardo da Vinci's ode to humanity

coa oda á humanidade de Leonardo da Vinci

é que este prisioneiro era un enfermo mental.

is that that prisoner was mentally ill.

That prisoner covered himself with shit every day,

Cubríase de merda todos os días,

Tiñan que rebozalo en lama para que non fedese.

they had to roll him in dirt so he wouldn't stink.

Pero os gardas deron en alcumalo "Shit Boy" (Mozo Merda)

But the guards ended up calling him "Shit Boy."

What was he doing in that prison rather than in some mental institution?

Que facía este home nunha cadea en vez de estar nun psiquiátrico?

En calquera caso, aquí está o ex-Secretario de Defensa, Rumsfeld.

In any event, here's former Secretary of Defense Rumsfeld.

He comes down and says, "I want to know, who is responsible?

Baixa á area e di, "Quero saber quen é o responsable"

"Quen son as mazás podres?"

Who are the bad apples?"

Well, that's a bad question.

Esta é unha pregunta errónea.

Tería que reformulala, preguntar, "Que é o responsable?"

You have to reframe it and ask, "What is responsible?"

"What" could be the who of people,

"Que" pode ser o "quen" das persoas,

but it could also be the what of the situation,

pero pode ser tamén o "que" da situación,

and obviously that's wrongheaded.

e, obviamente, está mal formulada.

How do psychologists try to understand such transformations of human character,

Como tratan de entender os psicólogos estas transformacións do carácter humano,

if you believe that they were good soldiers

se pensamos que eran bos soldados

before they went down to that dungeon?

antes de entrar naquel alxube?

There are three ways. The main way is called dispositional.

Hai tres formas. A principal é a denominada disposicional.

Miramos dentro das persoas, as mazás podres.

We look at what's inside of the person, the bad apples.

Esta é a base de toda ciencia social,

This is the foundation of all of social science,

the foundation of religion, the foundation of war.

a base da relixión, a base da guerra.

Os psicólogos sociais coma min imos alén, dicimos: "Si,

Social psychologists like me come along and say,

"Yeah, people are the actors on the stage,

as persoas son actores no escenario,

but you'll have to be aware of the situation.

pero temos que ser conscientes da situación.

Who are the cast of characters? What's the costume?

Cal é o elenco de personaxes? Cal é o vestiario?

Is there a stage director?"

Hai un director de escena?"

And so we're interested in what are the external factors

E deste modo interesámonos polos factores externos

around the individual -- the bad barrel?

que rodean ao individuo: o cesto podre.

Os científicos sociais paran aquí e ignoran o punto crucial

Social scientists stop there and they miss the big point

that I discovered when I became an expert witness for Abu Ghraib.

que descubrín cando actuei de perito para o caso Abu Ghraib.

The power is in the system.

O poder está no sistema.

The system creates the situation that corrupts the individuals,

O sistema crea a situación que corrompe os individuos,

and the system is the legal, political, economic, cultural background.

e o sistema é o marco legal, político, económico, cultural.

And this is where the power is of the bad-barrel makers.

Aí reside o poder dos que producen cestos podres.

Se queres cambiar unha persoa, cambia a situación.

If you want to change a person, change the situation.

And to change it, you've got to know where the power is, in the system.

E para cambiala debes saber que o poder reside no sistema.

Así que o efecto Lucifer supón comprender

So the Lucifer effect involves understanding

as transformacións do carácter humano

human character transformations with these three factors.

con estes tres factores.

É unha interacción dinámica.

And it's a dynamic interplay.

What do the people bring into the situation?

Que lle achega a persoa a esta situación?

What does the situation bring out of them?

Que saca a situación da persoa?

And what is the system that creates and maintains that situation?

E cal é o sistema que crea e mantén esa situación?

My recent book, "The Lucifer Effect," is about,

O meu libro "O efecto Lucifer" trata de

explicar como as boas persoas viran malas.

how do you understand how good people turn evil?

And it has a lot of detail about what I'm going to talk about today.

E inclúe moitos detalles sobre o tema do que lles falo hoxe.

"O efecto Lucifer" do Dr. Z., aínda que se centra no mal,

So Dr. Z's "Lucifer Effect," although it focuses on evil,

en realidade é unha celebración da infinita capacidade da mente humana

really is a celebration of the human mind's infinite capacity

to make any of us kind or cruel,

para facer a calquera de nós bondadoso ou cruel,

caring or indifferent, creative or destructive,

solícito ou indiferente, creativo ou destrutivo,

and it makes some of us villains.

para converter a algúns en viláns.

And the good news that I'm going to hopefully come to at the end

E as boas novas que, afortunadamente, achegarei como remate

is that it makes some of us heroes.

é que converte a algúns en heroes.

This wonderful cartoon in the New Yorker summarizes my whole talk:

Esta estupenda viñeta do New Yorker resume toda a miña charla:

"I'm neither a good cop nor a bad cop, Jerome.

"Nin son un poli bo nin un poli malo, Jerome.

Like yourself, I'm a complex amalgam

Coma ti, son unha mestura complexa

of positive and negative personality traits

de trazos de personalidade positivos e negativos

que emerxen ou non, dependendo das circunstancias."

that emerge or not, depending on the circumstances."

(Laughter)

(Risos)

There's a study some of you think you know about,

Hai un estudo do que algúns de vdes. xa oíron falar,

but very few people have ever read the story.

pero que pouca xente leu.

You watched the movie.

Vostedes viron a película.

This is Stanley Milgram, little Jewish kid from the Bronx,

Este é Stanley Milgram, un mozo xudeu do Bronx,

and he asked the question, "Could the Holocaust happen here, now?"

que se preguntou "Podería producirse o Holocausto aquí, agora?

A xente respondeu: "Non, aquelo foi a Alemaña nazi, Hitler, xa sabes, 1939".

People say, "No, that's Nazi Germany, Hitler, you know, that's 1939."

He said, "Yeah, but suppose Hitler asked you,

E dixo, "Si, pero supón que Hitler che pregunta,

"Electrocutarías a un descoñecido?" "Nunca, eu son unha boa persoa".

'Would you electrocute a stranger?' 'No way, I'm a good person.'"

El dixo, "Por que non te poñemos na situación

He said, "Why don't we put you in a situation

and give you a chance to see what you would do?"

e che damos a oportunidade de ver o que farías?"

And so what he did was he tested 1,000 ordinary people.

E así o fixo, puxo a proba a mil persoas normais.

500 New Haven, Connecticut, 500 Bridgeport.

Cincocentas en New Haven, Connecticut, Cincocentas en Bridgeport.

O anuncio dicía, "Psicólogos interesados no estudo da memoria.

And the ad said, "Psychologists want to understand memory.

We want to improve people's memory, because it is the key to success."

Queremos mellorar a memoria, porque é a chave do éxito".

OK?

Vale?

"Pagámosche cinco dólares, catro dólares polo teu tempo.

"We're going to give you five bucks -- four dollars for your time.

Non queremos universitarios. Buscamos homes entre 20 e 50 anos".

We don't want college students. We want men between 20 and 50."

Fixeron estudos posteriores con mulleres.

In the later studies, they ran women.

Xente corrente: barbeiros, curas, administrativos.

Ordinary people: barbers, clerks, white-collar people.

So, you go down,

Así que empezamos,

un de vostedes será un alumno, outro será profesor.

one of you will be a learner, one will be a teacher.

The learner's a genial, middle-aged guy.

O alumno é un tío simpático, mediana idade.

He gets tied up to the shock apparatus in another room.

Está enchufado a un xerador de descargas noutro cuarto.

The learner could be middle-aged, could be as young as 20.

Podía ser un home de mediana idade, ou novo, duns 20 anos.

E a un de vostedes unha autoridade, un tipo con bata branca dilles:

And one of you is told by the authority, the guy in the lab coat,

"Your job as teacher is to give him material to learn.

"A súa tarefa como profesor é darlle material a aprender.

Se o fai ben, recompensa.

Gets it right, reward.

Gets it wrong, you press a button on the shock box.

Se falla, prema un interruptor no emisor de descargas.

The first button is 15 volts. He doesn't even feel it."

O primeiro interruptor é de 15 volts. Apenas se sente".

Esta é a chave.

That's the key.

All evil starts with 15 volts.

A maldade empeza con 15 volts.

E entón o seguinte paso son outros 15 volts.

And then the next step is another 15 volts.

O problema é que ao final da serie son 450 volts.

The problem is, at the end of the line, it's 450 volts.

E conforme avanza, o tipo berra.

And as you go along, the guy is screaming,

"Padezo do corazón! Quero marchar de aquí!"

"I've got a heart condition! I'm out of here!"

You're a good person. You complain.

Vostede é boa persoa. Protesta.

"Señor, quen é o responsable se lle pasa algo?"

"Sir, who will be responsible if something happens to him?"

The experimenter says, "Don't worry, I will be responsible.

O experimentador responde, "Non se preocupe, o responsable son eu".

Continue, teacher."

Continúe, profesor".

E a pregunta é: quen seguiría até os 450 volts?

And the question is, who would go all the way to 450 volts?

You should notice here, when it gets up to 375,

Teñan en conta que nos 375

it says, "Danger. Severe Shock."

indícase"Perigo. Descarga forte".

Chegado a ese punto temos a tripla X. A pornografía do poder.

When it gets up to here, there's "XXX" -- the pornography of power.

So Milgram asks 40 psychiatrists,

Milgram preguntoulles a 40 psiquiatras,

"Que porcentaxe de estadounidenses chegaría até o final?"

"What percent of American citizens would go to the end?"

Responderon que só o 1 por cento.

They said only one percent.

Because that's sadistic behavior, and we know, psychiatry knows,

Porque se trata dunha conduta sádica, e os psiquiatras sabemos

que só o 1 por cento dos estadounidenses son sádicos.

only one percent of Americans are sadistic.

OK.

Vale.

Aquí están os datos. Non podían equivocarse máis.

Here's the data. They could not be more wrong.

Two thirds go all the way to 450 volts.

Dous terzos chegaron aos 450 volts.

This was just one study.

Era só un estudo.

Milgram fixo dezaseis máis.

Milgram did more than 16 studies.

And look at this.

E miren isto.

In study 16, where you see somebody like you go all the way,

No estudo 16, onde ven a alguén coma eles chegar até a fin,

90 percent go all the way.

o 90 por cento chega até alí.

In study five, if you see people rebel,

No estudo 5, onde ven persoas que se rebelan,

90 percent rebel.

o 90 por cento rebélase.

What about women? Study 13 -- no different than men.

Que pasa coas mulleres? Estudo 13: non hai diferenzas cos homes.

So Milgram is quantifying evil as the willingness of people

Así que Milgram cuantificou a maldade

como a disposición das persoas

to blindly obey authority, to go all the way to 450 volts.

a obedecer cegamente á autoridade, a chegar até os 450 volts.

And it's like a dial on human nature.

Isto é como o dial da natureza humana.

A dial in a sense that you can make almost everybody totally obedient,

Un dial en canto que podes facer que obedeza practicamente todo o mundo,

que o faga a maioría, ou que non o faga ninguén.

down to the majority, down to none.

What are the external parallels? For all research is artificial.

Cal son os paralelismos externos?

Todo experimento é artificial. Que validez ten no mundo real?

What's the validity in the real world?

912 American citizens committed suicide or were murdered

912 cidadáns estadounidenses suicidáronse ou foron asasinados

by family and friends in Guyana jungle in 1978,

por familiares e amigos na selva da Guyana en 1978,

because they were blindly obedient to this guy, their pastor --

porque obedecían cegamente a este individuo, o seu pastor,

not their priest -- their pastor, Reverend Jim Jones.

non o seu párroco, o seu pastor, o reverendo Jim Jones.

He persuaded them to commit mass suicide.

Persuadiunos para un suicidio colectivo.

E así, el é o efecto Lucifer moderno,

And so, he's the modern Lucifer effect,

un home de Deus que se converte no Anxo da Morte.

a man of God who becomes the Angel of Death.

Milgram's study is all about individual authority to control people.

O estudo de Milgram ocúpase do uso da autoridade individual

para controlar á xente.

Most of the time, we are in institutions,

Botamos a maior parte do tempo en institucións,

polo que o Estudo da Prisión de Stanford é sobre o poder das institucións

so the Stanford Prison Study is a study of the power of institutions

to influence individual behavior.

para influír na conduta individual.

Interestingly, Stanley Milgram and I were in the same high school class

Curiosamente, Stanley Milgram e mais eu estudamos na mesma clase no instituto,

in James Monroe in the Bronx, 1954.

no instituto James Monroe, no Bronx, 1954.

Fixen o estudo cos meus estudantes de posgrao,

I did this study with my graduate students,

nomeadamente Craig Haney, e tamén empezamos cun anuncio.

especially Craig Haney -- and it also began work with an ad.

Era un anuncio breve,

We had a cheap, little ad,

but we wanted college students for a study of prison life.

queriamos universitarios para un estudo da vida en prisión.

Presentáronse 75 voluntarios,

75 people volunteered, took personality tests.

fixeron tests de personalidade, entrevistámolos.

We did interviews.

Picked two dozen: the most normal, the most healthy.

Escollimos dúas ducias: os máis normais, os máis sans.

Randomly assigned them to be prisoner and guard.

Asignámoslles ao chou o papel de preso e de garda.

So on day one, we knew we had good apples.

Así que o primeiro día tiñamos mazás sas.

I'm going to put them in a bad situation.

Eu ía poñelos nunha situación mala.

And secondly, we know there's no difference

En segundo lugar, sabiamos que non había diferenzas

entre os mozos que ían ser gardas e os que ían ser presos.

between the boys who will be guards and those who will be prisoners.

Aos presos dixémoslles, "Agardade na casa,

To the prisoners, we said,

"Wait at home. The study will begin Sunday."

"o estudo comeza o domingo"

Non lles dixemos

We didn't tell them

that the city police were going to come and do realistic arrests.

que a policía local ía proceder a arrestalos como se fose real.

(Video) (Music)

(Vídeo) (Música)

[Day 1]

[Día 1]

Student: A police car pulls up in front, and a cop comes to the front door,

Estudante: Un coche da policía para diante e un policía achégase á porta,

and knocks, and says he's looking for me.

e chama, e di que me busca.

So they, right there, you know, they took me out the door,

Así, como cho conto, detivéronme na porta,

they put my hands against the car.

puxéronme as mans contra o coche.

It was a real cop car, it was a real policeman,

Era un coche da policía real, un policía de verdade,

e eran veciños de verdade os que estaban na rúa, non sabían

and there were real neighbors in the street,

who didn't know that this was an experiment.

que era un experimento.

And there was cameras all around and neighbors all around.

E había cámaras e veciños todo arredor.

They put me in the car, then they drove me around Palo Alto.

Metéronme no coche e leváronme a Palo Alto.

Leváronme a comisaría, metéronme no soto da comisaría.

They took me to the basement of the police station.

Then they put me in a cell.

Metéronme nun calabozo.

I was the first one to be picked up, so they put me in a cell,

Fun o primeiro detido, así que me meteron nunha cela,

que era como un cuarto cunha porta con reixa.

which was just like a room with a door with bars on it.

Pode dicirse que non era un cárcere real.

You could tell it wasn't a real jail.

Pecháronme alí, con aquela roupa degradante,

They locked me in there, in this degrading little outfit.

They were taking this experiment too seriously.

Tomaban o experimento moi en serio.

Here are the prisoners, who are going to be dehumanized, they'll become numbers.

Velaquí os presos, que van ser deshumanizados, converteranse nun número.

E velaquí os gardas, cos seus símbolos de poder e de anonimato.

Here are the guards with the symbols of power and anonymity.

Os gardas obrigaban os presos a limpar o váter coas mans,

Guards get prisoners to clean the toilet bowls out with their bare hands,

to do other humiliating tasks.

e a outras tarefas humillantes.

Poñíanos en fila nús. Vexábanos sexualmente.

They strip them naked. They sexually taunt them.

They begin to do degrading activities, like having them simulate sodomy.

Comezaron a obrigalos a actos degradantes, como simular sodomía.

You saw simulating fellatio in soldiers in Abu Ghraib.

Vostedes viron felacións simuladas así en Abu Ghraib

Os meus gardas fixérono en cinco días.

My guards did it in five days.

The stress reaction was so extreme

A reacción de estrés foi tan extrema

that normal kids we picked because they were healthy

que os rapaces que seleccionáramos porque eran sans

had breakdowns within 36 hours.

crebaron en 36 horas.

The study ended after six days, because it was out of control.

O estudo rematou aos seis días, porque estaba fóra de control.

Five kids had emotional breakdowns.

Cinco rapaces tiveron crises emocionais.

Does it make a difference

Terá algunha influencia

if warriors go to battle changing their appearance or not?

que os guerreiros muden de aspecto para entrar en batalla?

If they're anonymous, how do they treat their victims?

Como tratan ás súas vítimas desde o anonimato?

In some cultures, they go to war without changing their appearance.

Nalgunhas culturas vaise á guerra sen cambiar o aspecto.

In others, they paint themselves like "Lord of the Flies."

Noutras, píntanse como en "O señor das moscas".

Nalgunhas levan máscaras.

In some, they wear masks.

In many, soldiers are anonymous in uniform.

Noutras, os soldados fanse anónimos co uniforme.

So this anthropologist, John Watson, found 23 cultures that had two bits of data.

O antropólogo Jon Watson agrupou 23 culturas en dúas categorías.

Do they change their appearance? 15.

Cantas mudan de aspecto? 15.

Do they kill, torture, mutilate? 13.

Cantas matan, torturan, mutilan? 13.

If they don't change their appearance,

Se non mudan de aspecto, só nunha de oito

only one of eight kills, tortures or mutilates.

mata, tortura ou mutila.

A chave está na zona vermella. Se cambian de aspecto,

The key is in the red zone.

If they change their appearance,

12 de 13, o 90 por cento, matan, torturan, mutilan

12 of 13 -- that's 90 percent -- kill, torture, mutilate.

Ese é o poder do anonimato.

And that's the power of anonymity.

So what are the seven social processes

Entón, cales son os 7 procesos sociais

that grease the slippery slope of evil?

que engraxan a esvaradía costa do mal?

Mindlessly taking the first small step.

Dar o primeiro paso inconscientemente.

Dehumanization of others. De-individuation of self.

Deshumanización dos outros. Desindividuación dun mesmo.

Diffusion of personal responsibility.

Difusión da responsabilidade persoal.

Obediencia cega á autoridade.

Blind obedience to authority.

Conformidade acrítica coas normas grupais.

Uncritical conformity to group norms.

Passive tolerance of evil through inaction, or indifference.

Tolerancia pasiva perante o mal por inacción ou indiferenza.

E isto sucede cando un se atopa nunha situación nova.

And it happens when you're in a new or unfamiliar situation.

Os padróns de resposta habituais non serven.

Your habitual response patterns don't work.

A personalidade e a moralidade están desconectadas.

Your personality and morality are disengaged.

"Nothing is easier than to denounce the evildoer;

"Nada máis doado ca denunciar ao malvado;

nada máis difícil ca comprendelo". Dostoievski.

nothing more difficult than understanding him," Dostoyevsky.

Comprender non é escusar. A psicoloxía non é "escusoloxía".

Understanding is not excusing. Psychology is not excuse-ology.

A investigación social e psicolóxica revelan

So social and psychological research reveals

como a xente normal, boa, pode transformarse sen axuda de drogas.

how ordinary, good people can be transformed without the drugs.

You don't need it. You just need the social-psychological processes.

Non se necesitan. Só se necesitan os procesos socio-psicolóxicos.

Real world parallels?

Paralelismos no mundo real?

Compare this with this.

Comparen isto con isto.

James Schlesinger --remato con isto--, di,

James Schlesinger -- I'm going to end with this -- says,

"Psychologists have attempted to understand how and why

"Os psicólogos tratan de entender como e por que

individuals and groups who usually act humanely

persoas e grupos que normalmente actúan humanamente

can sometimes act otherwise in certain circumstances."

ás veces poden actuar doutro modo baixo certas circunstancias"

Iso é o Efecto Lucifer.

That's the Lucifer effect.

And he goes on to say, "The landmark Stanford study

E segue dicindo, "O famoso estudo de Stanford

provides a cautionary tale for all military operations."

é unha advertencia para calquera operación militar".

If you give people power without oversight,

Se lle dás á xente poder sen supervisión,

estás a dar licenza para abusar.

it's a prescription for abuse.

They knew that, and let that happen.

Eles sabíano, e deixaron que pasase.

So another report, an investigative report by General Fay,

Outro informe, un informe de investigación do xeneral Fay,

says the system is guilty.

di que o sistema é culpable.

In this report, he says it was the environment that created Abu Ghraib,

Neste informe afirma que foi o ambiente o que provocou Abu Ghraib,

by leadership failures that contributed to the occurrence of such abuse,

polos erros de mando que contribuíron a que se producisen os abusos,

and because it remained undiscovered

e porque os mandos superiores

by higher authorities for a long period of time.

os ignoraron durante moito tempo.

Os malos tratos prolongáronse tres meses

Those abuses went on for three months.

Who was watching the store?

Quen estaba mirando para alí?

The answer is nobody, I think on purpose.

A resposta é: ninguén. Eu penso que adrede.

He gave the guards permission to do those things,

Déronlles permiso aos gardas para facer aquilo,

e eles sabían que ninguén ía baixar a aquel alxube.

and they knew nobody was ever going to come down to that dungeon.

Cómpre un cambio de paradigma nestas áreas.

So you need a paradigm shift in all of these areas.

The shift is away from the medical model that focuses only on the individual.

O cambio do modelo médico que se centra só no individuo,

The shift is toward a public health model

ao modelo da saúde pública

que recoñece os vectores situacionais e sistémicos das enfermidades.

that recognizes situational and systemic vectors of disease.

Bullying is a disease. Prejudice is a disease.

O acoso é un trastorno. A discriminación, outro.

Violence is a disease.

A violencia, outro.

Since the Inquisition, we've been dealing with problems at the individual level.

Desde a Inquisición, levamos enfrontando o problema a nivel individual.

Non funciona.

It doesn't work.

Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn says, "The line between good and evil

Alexander Solzhenitsin afirma: "A liña entre o ben e o mal

cuts through the heart of every human being."

atravesa o corazón de cada ser humano".

That means that line is not out there.

Isto significa que a liña non está fóra.

That's a decision that you have to make, a personal thing.

É unha decisión que cada un ten que tomar, unha cuestión persoal.

So I want to end very quickly on a positive note.

Quero rematar rapidamente cunha nota positiva.

Heroism as the antidote to evil,

O heroísmo é o antídoto da maldade,

promovendo o imaxinario heroico,

by promoting the heroic imagination,

especialmente na infancia, no sistema educativo.

especially in our kids, in our educational system.

We want kids to think, "I'm a hero in waiting,

Queremos que os nenos pensen "son un heroe á espera,

á espera da situación adecuada,

waiting for the right situation to come along,

na que actuarei como un heroe".

and I will act heroically.

My whole life, I'm now going to focus away from evil --

A partir de agora vou deixar, de ocuparme do mal,

no que levo desde que era neno, e vou ocuparme dos heroes.

that I've been in since I was a kid -- to understanding heroes.

A banalidade do heroísmo.

Banality of heroism.

It's ordinary people who do heroic deeds.

É a xente normal a que fai heroicidades.

It's the counterpoint to Hannah Arendt's "Banality of Evil."

É o contrapunto á "banalidade do mal" de Hannah Arendt.

Our traditional societal heroes are wrong, because they are the exceptions.

Os nosos heroes tradicionais non valen, porque son a excepción.

They organize their life around this. That's why we know their names.

Organizan a súa vida arredor do seu heroísmo. Por iso os coñecemos.

E os heroes infantís tamén son malos modelos,

Our kids' heroes are also wrong models for them,

porque teñen poderes sobrenaturais.

because they have supernatural talents.

Queremos que os nenos saiban que os mais dos heroes son xente normal,

We want our kids to realize most heroes are everyday people,

and the heroic act is unusual.

e que o inusual son os actos heroicos.

This is Joe Darby.

Este é Joe Darby.

He was the one that stopped those abuses you saw,

Foi quen puxo fin aos abusos que viron,

porque cando viu aquelas fotos,

because when he saw those images,

he turned them over to a senior investigating officer.

denunciounas ante un superior.

El era un soldado raso, e parouno.

He was a low-level private, and that stopped it.

Was he a hero? No.

Era un heroe? Non.

Tiveron que poñerlle protección, porque querían matalo,

They had to put him in hiding, because people wanted to kill him,

and then his mother and his wife.

tamén á súa nai e á súa muller.

Durante tres anos, estiveron agochados.

For three years, they were in hiding.

This is the woman who stopped the Stanford Prison Study.

Esta é a muller que lle puxo fin ao Estudo da Prisión de Stanford.

When I said it got out of control, I was the prison superintendent.

Cando dixen que estaba fóra de control eu era o superior da cadea.

I didn't know it was out of control. I was totally indifferent.

Non sabía que estaba fóra de control. Tanto me tiña todo.

She saw that madhouse and said,

Ela viu aquela tolería e dixo:

"You know what, it's terrible what you're doing to those boys.

"Sabes? o que lles estás a facer a estes rapaces é terrible.

They're not prisoners nor guards, they're boys, and you are responsible."

Non son presos nin gardas, son rapaces, e ti es o responsable".

Cancelei o experimento ao día seguinte.

And I ended the study the next day.

The good news is I married her the next year.

A boa noticia é que casei con ela un ano despois.

(Laughter)

(Risos)

(Aplausos)

(Applause)

I just came to my senses, obviously.

Volvín ao meu ser, por suposto.

So situations have the power to do [three things].

As situacións teñen o poder de facer [tres cousas]

Pero o caso é que a mesma situación

But the point is, this is the same situation

que pode prender no imaxinario hostil dalgún de nós,

that can inflame the hostile imagination in some of us,

that makes us perpetrators of evil,

que nos fai perpetradores do mal,

can inspire the heroic imagination in others.

pode inspirar o imaxinario heroico noutros.

It's the same situation and you're on one side or the other.

É a mesma situación, e podemos estar dun ou doutro lado.

Most people are guilty of the evil of inaction,

Moita xente peca de maldade por pasividade,

because your mother said, "Don't get involved. Mind your own business."

porque súa nai lle dixo: "Non te metas. Métete nas túas cousas".

Hai que replicar, "Mamá, a humanidade é cousa miña".

And you have to say, "Mama, humanity is my business."

So the psychology of heroism is -- we're going to end in a moment --

A psicoloxía do heroísmo consiste en ver --estamos a rematar--

como meter aos nenos en cursos para novos heroes,

how do we encourage children in new hero courses,

that I'm working on with Matt Langdon -- he has a hero workshop --

niso estou a traballar con Matt Landon - el ten un obradoiro para heroes-

to develop this heroic imagination, this self-labeling,

para desenvolver este imaxinario heroico, esta auto-etiqueta,

"I am a hero in waiting," and teach them skills.

"son un heroe en espera", e ensinarlles a selo.

To be a hero, you have to learn to be a deviant,

Para ser un heroe, hai que aprender a diverxer,

porque vai haber que ir contra a conformidade do grupo.

because you're always going against the conformity of the group.

Heroes are ordinary people whose social actions are extraordinary. Who act.

Os heroes son xente normal que fan cousas extraordinarias, que actúan.

The key to heroism is two things.

A chave do heroísmo son dous puntos:

A: Actuar cando outros quedan parados.

You have to act when other people are passive.

B: Actuar sociocentricamente, non egocentricamente.

B: You have to act socio-centrically, not egocentrically.

And I want to end with a known story about Wesley Autrey, New York subway hero.

E vou rematar cunha historia, a de Wesley Autrey, heroe do metro de Nova York

Un obreiro da construción afroamericano de 55 anos.

Fifty-year-old African-American construction worker standing on a subway.

Está na estación do metro. Un tío branco cae ás vías.

A white guy falls on the tracks.

The subway train is coming. There's 75 people there.

O tren está chegando. Hai 75 persoas na estación.

E saben que? Quedan pegados.

You know what? They freeze.

He's got a reason not to get involved.

El ten razóns para non meterse.

He's black, the guy's white, and he's got two kids.

É negro, o tío é branco, e el está cos seus dous nenos.

Pero déixalle os fillos a un descoñecido,

Instead, he gives his kids to a stranger,

salta ás vías, move ao tío cara ao medio dos raís,

jumps on the tracks, puts the guy between the tracks,

lays on him, the subway goes over him.

bótaselle enriba, o tren pásalles por riba.

Wesley and the guy -- 20 and a half inches height.

Wesley e o tío, 52 centímetros de altura.

O espazo que deixa o tren é de 53,5 cm.

The train clearance is 21 inches.

A half an inch would have taken his head off.

Un centímetro e medio e levaríalle a cabeza.

And he said, "I did what anyone could do," no big deal to jump on the tracks.

E di: "Fixen o que faría calquera" Saltar ás vías non é para tanto.

And the moral imperative is "I did what everyone should do."

E o imperativo moral é "fixen o que faría calquera".

Así que calquera día, atoparanse nunha situación nova.

And so one day, you will be in a new situation.

Se collen o camiño un, serán axentes do mal.

Take path one, you're going to be a perpetrator of evil.

Evil, meaning you're going to be Arthur Andersen.

O mal no sentido de que serán Arthur Andersen.

Mentirán, ou permitirán abusos.

You're going to cheat, or you're going to allow bullying.

Path two, you become guilty of the evil of passive inaction.

Co camiño dous, serán culpables do mal por pasividade.

Path three, you become a hero.

Co camiño tres, serán heroes.

The point is, are we ready to take the path to celebrating ordinary heroes,

A cuestión é: estamos listos para coller o camiño que leva a ser heroes normais,

waiting for the right situation to come along

a esperar pola situación adecuada

para poñer en práctica o imaxinario heroico?

to put heroic imagination into action?

Porque isto só pasa unha vez na vida.

Because it may only happen once in your life,

e cando che pasa, sábelo.

and when you pass it by, you'll always know,

Eu puiden ser un heroe e deixei pasar a ocasión.

I could have been a hero and I let it pass me by.

So the point is thinking it and then doing it.

Así que a cousa é pensalo e logo facelo.

So I want to thank you. Thank you.

Quero darlles as grazas, grazas, grazas.

Let's oppose the power of evil systems at home and abroad,

Opoñámonos ao poder dos sistemas do mal na casa e fóra dela.

and let's focus on the positive.

E concentrémonos no positivo.

Avoguemos polo respecto á dignidade das persoas, á xustiza e á paz,

Advocate for respect of personal dignity, for justice and peace,

which sadly our administration has not been doing.

cousa que, por desgraza, a Administración non fai.

Moitas grazas.

Thanks so much.

(Applause)

(Aplausos)