The psychology of evil | Philip Zimbardo

Prevoditelj: Ivan Zuzak Recezent: Vedrana Janković

Philosophers, dramatists, theologians

Filozofi, dramaturzi, teolozi

have grappled with this question for centuries:

stoljećima se bore s pitanjem:

what makes people go wrong?

Što tjera ljude da krenu krivim putem?

Interestingly, I asked this question when I was a little kid.

Postavio sam si to pitanje još dok sam bio dječak.

I grew up in the South Bronx, inner-city ghetto in New York,

Kad sam bio dječak, odrastajući u južnom Bronxu, središnjem i siromašnom getu

u New Yorku, bio sam okružen zlom,

and I was surrounded by evil,

as all kids are who grew up in an inner city.

kao i svi klinci koji su odrasli u siromašnom dijelu grada.

And I had friends who were really good kids,

Imao sam prijatelje koji su bili jako dobra djeca,

who lived out the Dr. Jekyll Mr. Hyde scenario -- Robert Louis Stevenson.

a živjeli su pravim doktor Jekyll i gospodin Hyde životom -- Robert Louis Stevenson.

That is, they took drugs, got in trouble, went to jail.

Odnosno, drogirali su se, upadali u nevolje i bili u zatvoru.

Some got killed, and some did it without drug assistance.

Neki su ubijeni, a nekima je to uspjelo bez pomoći droge.

So when I read Robert Louis Stevenson, that wasn't fiction.

I kada sam pročitao Roberta Louisa Stevensona, to za mene nije bila fikcija.

The only question is, what was in the juice?

Jedino pitanje je, što je bilo u napitku?

I još važnije, da granica između dobra i zla --

And more importantly, that line between good and evil --

which privileged people like to think is fixed and impermeable,

za koju privilegirani ljudi misle da je fiksna i neporozna,

with them on the good side, the others on the bad side --

s njima na strani dobra, i drugim ljudima na strani zla --

I knew that line was movable, and it was permeable.

znao sam da ju je moguće pomaknuti i da jest porozna.

Good people could be seduced across that line,

Dobre ljude moguće je zavesti da prijeđu tu granicu,

and under good and some rare circumstances, bad kids could recover

a u dobrim i rijetkim okolnostima loša djeca mogu se oporaviti

uz pomoć, reforme i rehabilitaciju.

with help, with reform, with rehabilitation.

So I want to begin with this wonderful illusion

Zbog toga želim započeti s ovom divnom iluzijom

by [Dutch] artist M.C. Escher.

[nizozemskog] umjetnika M.C. Eschera.

If you look at it and focus on the white, what you see is a world full of angels.

Ako ju gledate i usredotočite se na bijele dijelove,

ono što vidite je svijet pun anđela.

But let's look more deeply, and as we do,

Ali pogledajmo dublje, i kako gledamo,

what appears is the demons, the devils in the world.

pojavljuju se zlodusi, demoni svijeta.

That tells us several things.

A to nam govori nekoliko stvari.

One, the world is, was, will always be filled with good and evil,

Prvo: svijet jest, uvijek je bio i uvijek će biti ispunjen i dobrom i zlom

because good and evil is the yin and yang of the human condition.

jer dobro i zlo su Yin i Yang ljudskog stanja.

It tells me something else.

Govori mi i nešto drugo. Ako se sjećate,

If you remember, God's favorite angel was Lucifer.

Božji omiljeni anđeo bio je Lucifer.

Apparently, Lucifer means "the light."

Navodno, Lucifer znači "svjetlo".

It also means "the morning star," in some scripture.

A prema nekim zapisima također znači i "jutarnja zvijezda".

And apparently, he disobeyed God,

A navodno on nije bio poslušan prema Bogu,

and that's the ultimate disobedience to authority.

što je najveće moguće nepoštivanje autoriteta.

And when he did, Michael, the archangel, was sent to kick him out of heaven

A kad je to učinio, arhanđeo Mihael je poslan

da ga izbaci iz raja zajedno s drugim palim anđelima.

along with the other fallen angels.

And so Lucifer descends into hell, becomes Satan,

I tako Lucifer silazi u pakao, postaje Sotona,

becomes the devil, and the force of evil in the universe begins.

postaje vrag i počinje sila zla u svemiru.

Paradoksalno, upravo je Bog stvorio pakao kao mjesto za smještanje zla.

Paradoxically, it was God who created hell as a place to store evil.

He didn't do a good job of keeping it there though.

Doduše, nije dobro obavio posao držanja zla tamo.

Dakle, ova linija kozmičke pretvorbe

So, this arc of the cosmic transformation of God's favorite angel into the Devil,

omiljenog Božjeg anđela u vraga,

za mene postavlja kontekst za razumijevanje ljudi

for me, sets the context for understanding human beings

who are transformed from good, ordinary people into perpetrators of evil.

koji se iz dobrih, običnih ljudi, pretvaraju

u počinitelje zla.

So the Lucifer effect, although it focuses on the negatives --

Tako me Luciferov efekt, iako se usredotočuje na negativnosti --

the negatives that people can become,

negativnosti koje ljudi mogu postati,

not the negatives that people are --

a ne negativnosti koje ljudi jesu --

vodi u psihološku definiciju: zlo je upotrebljavanje moći.

leads me to a psychological definition.

Evil is the exercise of power.

And that's the key: it's about power.

I to je ključ: radi se o moći.

Namjerno psihički naškoditi ljudima,

To intentionally harm people psychologically,

to hurt people physically, to destroy people mortally, or ideas,

tjelesno ozlijediti ljude, ubiti nekoga, ili ubiti ideje,

and to commit crimes against humanity.

i počiniti zločine protiv čovječnosti.

If you Google "evil," a word that should surely have withered by now,

Ako u Google unesete "zlo", riječ koja je do sada trebala nestati,

you come up with 136 million hits in a third of a second.

dobiti ćete 136 milijuna rezultata za trećinu sekunde.

A few years ago -- I am sure all of you were shocked, as I was,

Prije nekoliko godina -- siguran sam da ste svi vi bili šokirani, kao što sam i ja bio,

with the revelation of American soldiers abusing prisoners in a strange place

s otkrićem o američkim vojnicima

koji zlostavljaju zarobljenike na čudnom mjestu

in a controversial war, Abu Ghraib in Iraq.

u kontroverznom ratu: Abu Ghraibu u Iraku.

And these were men and women

A ovo su muškarci i žene

koji su tjerali zarobljenike na nevjerojatna poniženja.

who were putting prisoners through unbelievable humiliation.

I was shocked, but I wasn't surprised,

Bio sam šokiran, ali ne i iznenađen,

because I had seen those same visual parallels

jer sam iste vizualne usporedbe vidio

when I was the prison superintendent of the Stanford Prison Study.

dok sam bio upravnitelj zatvora tijekom studije Stanfordskog zatvora.

Immediately the Bush administration military said what?

Busheva vojna administracija odmah je objavila ... što?

What all administrations say when there's a scandal:

Ono što svaka vlada objavi nakon što se dogodi skandal.

"Nemojte kriviti nas. Nije sustav kriv. Razlog je nekoliko pokvarenih jabuka,

"Don't blame us. It's not the system.

It's the few bad apples, the few rogue soldiers."

nekoliko odmetnutih vojnika."

My hypothesis is, American soldiers are good, usually.

Moja pretpostavka je da su američki vojnici uglavnom dobri.

Maybe it was the barrel that was bad.

Možda je posuda koja drži jabuke bila pokvarena.

But how am I going to deal with that hypothesis?

Ali kako ću - kako ću se ja pomiriti s tom hipotezom?

I became an expert witness for one of the guards,

Postao sam vještakom

za jednog od čuvara, narednika Chipa Fredericka,

Sergeant Chip Frederick, and in that position,

i na tom sam položaju imao pristup desecima istražnih izvješća.

I had access to the dozen investigative reports.

I had access to him.

Imao sam pristup do njega. Mogao sam ga proučavati,

I could study him, have him come to my home, get to know him,

dovesti ga u svoj dom, upoznati ga,

do psychological analysis to see, was he a good apple or bad apple.

i napraviti psihološku analizu da vidim je li on dobra ili pokvarena jabuka.

And thirdly, I had access to all of the 1,000 pictures

I treće, imao sam pristup do svih 1000 fotografija

that these soldiers took.

koje su vojnici napravili.

These pictures are of a violent or sexual nature.

Ove su slike nasilne ili seksualne prirode.

All of them come from the cameras of American soldiers.

Sve fotografije su uslikali američki vojnici.

Because everybody has a digital camera or cell phone camera,

Budući da svatko ima digitalni fotoaparat ili fotoaparat u mobitelu,

they took pictures of everything, more than 1,000.

fotografirali su sve.Više od 1000 fotografija.

And what I've done is I organized them into various categories.

A ono što sam ja napravio je razvrstao ih u različite kategorije.

Ali ove su napravili pripadnici američke vojne policije, vojni rezervisti.

But these are by United States military police, army reservists.

They are not soldiers prepared for this mission at all.

Oni nisu vojnici koji su bili pripremljeni za ovu misiju.

I sve se to dogodilo na jednom mjestu, razini 1A, tijekom noćne smjene.

And it all happened in a single place, Tier 1-A, on the night shift.

Why?

Zašto? Razina 1A bila je središte vojne inteligencije.

Tier 1-A was the center for military intelligence.

It was the interrogation hold.

To je bio prostor za ispitivanje zarobljenika. CIA se nalazila tamo.

The CIA was there.

Interrogators from Titan Corporation, all there,

Ispitivači iz tvrtke Titan, svi su bili tamo,

i nisu uspijevali dobiti bilo kakve informacije o pobuni.

and they're getting no information about the insurgency.

So they're going to put pressure on these soldiers,

Stoga su odlučili napraviti pritisak na te vojnike,

vojnu policiju, da prijeđu granicu,

military police, to cross the line,

give them permission to break the will of the enemy,

i dati im dopuštenje da slome volju neprijatelja,

to prepare them for interrogation, to soften them up,

da ih pripreme za ispitivanja, da ih omekšaju,

to take the gloves off.

da skinu rukavice.To su izrazi koje su koristili,

Those are the euphemisms, and this is how it was interpreted.

a ovako su bili protumačeni.

Let's go down to that dungeon.

Idemo dolje do tamnice.

(Blenda fotoaparata)

(Typewriting)

[Abu Ghraib Iraq Prison Abuses 2008 Military Police Guards' Photos]

[The following images include nudity and graphic depictions of violence]

(Camera shutter sounds)

(Lupanje)

(Thuds)

(Camera shutter)

(Blenda fotoaparata)

(Camera shutter)

(Lupanje)

(Breathing)

(Disanje)

(Bells)

(Zvona)

(Bells end)

So, pretty horrific.

Dakle, prilično grozno.

That's one of the visual illustrations of evil.

To je jedna od vizualnih ilustracija zla.

And it should not have escaped you

I trebali ste primijetiti

da je razlog zbog kojeg sam upario sliku zarobljenika raširenih ruku

that the reason I paired the prisoner with his arms out

with Leonardo da Vinci's ode to humanity

s Da Vincijevom Odom čovječnosti,

is that that prisoner was mentally ill.

taj da je zatočenik psihički bolestan.

That prisoner covered himself with shit every day,

Taj zarobljenik mazao se izmetom svaki dan,

i vojnici su ga morali uvaljati u blato da ne bi smrdio.

they had to roll him in dirt so he wouldn't stink.

But the guards ended up calling him "Shit Boy."

Ali stražari su ga na kraju zvali Posranko.

What was he doing in that prison rather than in some mental institution?

Kako se on našao u tom zatvoru,

a ne u nekoj instituciji za mentalne bolesti?

In any event, here's former Secretary of Defense Rumsfeld.

U svakom slučaju, ovdje bivši ministar obrane Rumsfeld

He comes down and says, "I want to know, who is responsible?

dolazi i kaže - Želim znati tko je odgovoran

Tko su pokvarene jabuke? - To je krivo pitanje.

Who are the bad apples?"

Well, that's a bad question.

Morate pitanje preoblikovati i pitati: "Što je odgovorno?"

You have to reframe it and ask, "What is responsible?"

"What" could be the who of people,

Budući da "što" mogu biti ljudi,

but it could also be the what of the situation,

ali također može biti i situacija,

and obviously that's wrongheaded.

i očito je upravo to krivo.

How do psychologists try to understand such transformations of human character,

Kako onda psiholozi pristupaju razumijevanju

takve pretvorbe ljudskog karaktera,

if you believe that they were good soldiers

ako vjerujete da su oni bili dobri vojnici

before they went down to that dungeon?

prije nego što su otišli dolje u tamnice?

There are three ways. The main way is called dispositional.

Postoje tri načina. Osnovni način je promatranje unutarnjih čimbenika ponašanja.

Promatramo što je unutar osobe, onih pokvarenih jabuka.

We look at what's inside of the person, the bad apples.

This is the foundation of all of social science,

Upravo to je osnova svih društvenih znanosti,

the foundation of religion, the foundation of war.

osnova religije, osnova rata.

Social psychologists like me come along and say,

Društveni psiholozi poput mene kažu - Da,

"Yeah, people are the actors on the stage,

ljudi su glumci na pozornici,

but you'll have to be aware of the situation.

ali morate biti svjesni i situacije.

Who are the cast of characters? What's the costume?

Tko su glumci uloga? Koje kostime nose?

Is there a stage director?"

Postoji li redatelj?

And so we're interested in what are the external factors

Nas zanima koji su vanjski čimbenici

around the individual -- the bad barrel?

oko pojedinca, odnosno pokvarena posuda

I sociolozi se tamo zaustave i propuste najvažniju poantu

Social scientists stop there and they miss the big point

that I discovered when I became an expert witness for Abu Ghraib.

koju sam ja otkrio kada sam postao vještakom za Abu Ghraibu.

The power is in the system.

Moć se nalazi u sustavu.

The system creates the situation that corrupts the individuals,

Sustav stvara situacije koje kvare pojedince

and the system is the legal, political, economic, cultural background.

i sustav je pravna, politička, ekonomska i kulturna pozadina.

And this is where the power is of the bad-barrel makers.

I ovdje se nalazi moć ljudi koji proizvode pokvarene posude.

Dakle, ako želite promijeniti neku osobu morate promijeniti situaciju.

If you want to change a person, change the situation.

And to change it, you've got to know where the power is, in the system.

Ako želite promijeniti situaciju,

morate znati gdje se u sustavu nalazi moć.

Na taj način Luciferov efekt uključuje razumijevanje

So the Lucifer effect involves understanding

transformacije ljudskog karaktera primjenom ova tri čimbenika.

human character transformations with these three factors.

And it's a dynamic interplay.

Osim toga, to je dinamična veza.

What do the people bring into the situation?

Što ljudi donose u situaciju?

What does the situation bring out of them?

Što situacija izvlači iz njih?

And what is the system that creates and maintains that situation?

I kakav sustav stvara i održava tu situaciju?

My recent book, "The Lucifer Effect," is about,

Moja se knjiga, Luciferov efekt, nedavno objavljena, bavi time

kako shvatiti kako dobri ljudi postaju zli?

how do you understand how good people turn evil?

And it has a lot of detail about what I'm going to talk about today.

U knjizi ima puno detalja

u vezi toga o čemu ću danas pričati.

So Dr. Z's "Lucifer Effect," although it focuses on evil,

Dakle, "Lucifer efekt", iako fokusiran na zlo,

really is a celebration of the human mind's infinite capacity

ustvari je slavljenje

beskrajnog kapaciteta ljudskog uma da bilo koga od nas učini ili dobrim ili okrutnim,

to make any of us kind or cruel,

caring or indifferent, creative or destructive,

brižnim ili ravnodušnim, kreativnim ili destruktivnim,

and it makes some of us villains.

i pretvara neke od nas u zločince.

And the good news that I'm going to hopefully come to at the end

Priča o dobroj vijesti do koje se nadam da ću doći

is that it makes some of us heroes.

na kraju govora je da neke od nas pretvara u junake.

Ovo je prekrasan strip u časopisu New Yorker,

This wonderful cartoon in the New Yorker summarizes my whole talk:

koji jako dobro rezimira moj cijeli govor:

"I'm neither a good cop nor a bad cop, Jerome.

"Ja sam ni dobar ni loš policajac, Jerome.

Like yourself, I'm a complex amalgam

Kao ti, i ja sam složen spoj

of positive and negative personality traits

pozitivnih i negativnih osobina ličnosti

that emerge or not, depending on the circumstances."

koje se ili pojavljuju ili ne, ovisno o okolnostima."

(Laughter)

(Smijeh)

There's a study some of you think you know about,

Postoji studija za koju neki od vas misle da ju znaju,

but very few people have ever read the story.

ali vrlo je malo ljudi koji su pročitali priču. Gledali ste film.

You watched the movie.

This is Stanley Milgram, little Jewish kid from the Bronx,

Ovo je Stanley Milgrom, židovski dječak iz Bronxa,

and he asked the question, "Could the Holocaust happen here, now?"

i on je postavio pitanje, "Bi li se holokaust mogao dogoditi ovdje, sada?"

People say, "No, that's Nazi Germany, Hitler, you know, that's 1939."

Ljudi kažu: "Ne, to je bilo u nacističkoj Njemačkoj,

to je Hitler, znaš, to je 1939. godina."

He said, "Yeah, but suppose Hitler asked you,

A on je rekao, "Da, ali pretpostavimo da je Hitler pitao vas,

'Biste li ubili stranca strujom?''Nema šanse, ne ja, ja sam dobra osoba.'

'Would you electrocute a stranger?' 'No way, I'm a good person.'"

He said, "Why don't we put you in a situation

On je rekao: "Zašto vas ne bismo stavili u situaciju

i dali vam priliku da vidite što ćete učiniti?"

and give you a chance to see what you would do?"

I tako je proveo ispitivanje nad 1000 običnih ljudi.

And so what he did was he tested 1,000 ordinary people.

500 New Haven, Connecticut, 500 Bridgeport.

500 u New Havenu, Connecticut; 500 u Bridgeportu.

Oglas je glasio, "Psiholozi žele razumjeti pamćenje,

And the ad said, "Psychologists want to understand memory.

We want to improve people's memory, because it is the key to success."

želimo poboljšati pamćenje ljudi,

jer pamćenje je ključ uspjeha." U redu?

OK?

"Dati ćemo vam pet dolara - četiri dolara za vaše vrijeme."

"We're going to give you five bucks -- four dollars for your time.

We don't want college students. We want men between 20 and 50."

I dalje glasi: "Ne trebamo studente;

trebamo muškarace između 20 i 50 godina"

In the later studies, they ran women.

-- u kasnijim studijama proveli su ispitivanja i na ženama --

"obične ljude: brijače, trgovce, ljude koji rade u uredima."

Ordinary people: barbers, clerks, white-collar people.

So, you go down,

I tako se javite na oglas i netko od vas bit će učenik,

one of you will be a learner, one will be a teacher.

a drugi će biti učitelj.

The learner's a genial, middle-aged guy.

Učenik je srdačan, srednjovječan muškarac.

He gets tied up to the shock apparatus in another room.

Njega vežu na aparat za elektrošokove u drugoj sobi.

The learner could be middle-aged, could be as young as 20.

Učenik bi mogao biti srednjovječan, a mogao bi biti i u dvadesetima.

Jednom od vas osoba s autoritetom, osoba u laboratorijskoj kuti, kaže

And one of you is told by the authority, the guy in the lab coat,

"Your job as teacher is to give him material to learn.

"Vaš posao kao učitelja je da ovom čovjeku date sredstvo za učenje.

Gets it right, reward.

Ako napavi dobro, nagradite ga.

Gets it wrong, you press a button on the shock box.

Ako pogriješi, pritisnite tipku na kutiji za upravljanje šokovima.

The first button is 15 volts. He doesn't even feel it."

Prva tipka je 15 volti. On to niti ne osjeća. "

That's the key.

I to je ključ. Svako zlo počinje s 15 volti.

All evil starts with 15 volts.

And then the next step is another 15 volts.

A onda slijedi još 15 volti.

The problem is, at the end of the line, it's 450 volts.

Problem je što, na kraju priče, to bude 450 volti.

I kako se sve odvija, čovjek počne vrištati

And as you go along, the guy is screaming,

"I've got a heart condition! I'm out of here!"

"Imam srčanu bolest! Ja odlazim! "

You're a good person. You complain.

A vi ste dobra osoba. Prigovarate.

"Sir, who will be responsible if something happens to him?"

"Gospodine, tko će biti odgovoran ako mu se nešto dogodi?"

The experimenter says, "Don't worry, I will be responsible.

Izvođač eksperimenta kaže: "Ne brinite, ja ću biti odgovoran.

Continue, teacher."

Nastavite, učitelju. "

I pitanje je, tko će ići sve do 450 volti?

And the question is, who would go all the way to 450 volts?

You should notice here, when it gets up to 375,

Treba napomenuti da kada se dođe do 375 volti,

it says, "Danger. Severe Shock."

na uređaju piše, "Opasnost: ozbiljan elektrošok".

When it gets up to here, there's "XXX" -- the pornography of power.

Kada dođe do ove razine, to je "XXX": pornografija moći.

So Milgram asks 40 psychiatrists,

(Smijeh)

I onda Milgrom pita 40 psihijatara,

"Koji postotak američkih građana će ići do kraja?"

"What percent of American citizens would go to the end?"

They said only one percent.

Oni su rekli samo 1 posto. Budući da je to sadističko ponašanje,

Because that's sadistic behavior, and we know, psychiatry knows,

a znamo, psihijatrija zna, da su samo 1 posto Amerikanaca sadisti.

only one percent of Americans are sadistic.

OK.

U redu. Evo podataka. Nisu mogli više promašiti.

Here's the data. They could not be more wrong.

Two thirds go all the way to 450 volts.

Dvije trećine idu sve do 450 volti. A to je bila samo jedna studija.

This was just one study.

Milgram did more than 16 studies.

Milgram je proveo više od 16 studija. I pogledajte ovo.

And look at this.

U studiji 16, gdje vidite nekoga poput vas kako ide do kraja,

In study 16, where you see somebody like you go all the way,

90 percent go all the way.

90 posto ispitanika ide do kraja. U petoj studiji, ako vidite ljude da se pobune, 90 posto ih se pobuni.

In study five, if you see people rebel,

90 percent rebel.

What about women? Study 13 -- no different than men.

Što je sa ženama? Studija 13: ne razlikuju se od muškaraca.

So Milgram is quantifying evil as the willingness of people

Tako je Milgrom kvantificirao zlo kao spremnost ljudi

to blindly obey authority, to go all the way to 450 volts.

da se slijepo pokore vlasti, da idu sve do 450 volti.

And it's like a dial on human nature.

A to je poput upravljača ljudske prirode.

A dial in a sense that you can make almost everybody totally obedient,

Upravljača u smislu da gotovo svakoga možete napraviti potpuno poslušnim

down to the majority, down to none.

od većine do nikoga.

Ali koje su vanjske usporedbe? Jer svako je istraživanje umjetno.

What are the external parallels? For all research is artificial.

What's the validity in the real world?

Koja je valjanost u stvarnom svijetu?

912 američkih građana počinilo je samoubojstvo ili su ih ubili

912 American citizens committed suicide or were murdered

by family and friends in Guyana jungle in 1978,

članovi obitelji i prijatelji u džungli u Gvajani 1978.

because they were blindly obedient to this guy, their pastor --

zbog slijepe poslušnosti prema ovom čovjeku, svojem pastoru.

not their priest -- their pastor, Reverend Jim Jones.

Ne svojem svećeniku. Svojem pastoru, velečasnom Jimu Jonesu.

Na njegov nagovor počinili su masovno samoubojstvo.

He persuaded them to commit mass suicide.

And so, he's the modern Lucifer effect,

I tako je upravo on protagonist suvremenog Luciferovog efekta.

Božji čovjek koji je postao anđeo smrti.

a man of God who becomes the Angel of Death.

Milgram's study is all about individual authority to control people.

Milgramova studija govori upravo o moći pojedinca da upravlja ljudima.

Većinu vremena provodimo u institucijama,

Most of the time, we are in institutions,

so the Stanford Prison Study is a study of the power of institutions

stoga je studija o stanfordskom zatvoru zapravo studija o utjecaju institucija

to influence individual behavior.

na ponašanje pojedinca.

Interestingly, Stanley Milgram and I were in the same high school class

Zanimljivo je da smo Stanley Milgrom i ja bili u istom razredu

u srednjoj školi James Monroe u Bronxu, 1954.

in James Monroe in the Bronx, 1954.

I did this study with my graduate students,

Ovo istraživanje na kojemu sam radio

sa svojim studentima, posebno Craigom Haneyjem,

especially Craig Haney -- and it also began work with an ad.

također je započelo oglasom.

Nismo imali novca pa smo postavili jeftini maleni oglas,

We had a cheap, little ad,

but we wanted college students for a study of prison life.

a željeli smo studente koji bi sudjelovali u istraživanju o zatvorskom životu.

75 ljudi se dobrovoljno javilo i ispunilo testove osobnosti.

75 people volunteered, took personality tests.

We did interviews.

Intervjuirali smo ih. Izabrali smo dvadeset četvero ljudi,

Picked two dozen: the most normal, the most healthy.

najnormalnijih, najzdravijih.

Randomly assigned them to be prisoner and guard.

Nasumično su im dodijeljene uloge zatvorenika i čuvara.

So on day one, we knew we had good apples.

Tako smo prvog dana znali da imamo dobre jabuke.

I'm going to put them in a bad situation.

Dovest ćemo ih u lošu situaciju.

And secondly, we know there's no difference

Drugo, poznato je da nema razlike

between the boys who will be guards and those who will be prisoners.

između mladića koji će biti čuvari

i mladića koji će biti zatvorenici.

To the prisoners, we said,

Mladićima koji će biti zatvorenici

"Wait at home. The study will begin Sunday."

rekli smo: "Čekajte kod kuće u spavaonicama.Studija će započeti u nedjelju."

We didn't tell them

Nismo im rekli

that the city police were going to come and do realistic arrests.

da će doći gradska policija i izvršiti realistična uhićenja.

(Video) (Music)

[Day 1]

[Čovjek na snimci] policijski automobil zaustavlja se ispred ulaza i policajac dolazi do prednjih vrata

Student: A police car pulls up in front, and a cop comes to the front door,

and knocks, and says he's looking for me.

i pokuca i kaže da traži mene.

So they, right there, you know, they took me out the door,

Tako su, na licu mjesta, znate, odveli me van,

they put my hands against the car.

prislonili mi ruke na auto.

It was a real cop car, it was a real policeman,

Policijski auto je bio stvaran, policajac je bio stvaran,

and there were real neighbors in the street,

i na ulici su bili stvarni susjedi

koji nisu znali da se radi o eksperimentu.

who didn't know that this was an experiment.

And there was cameras all around and neighbors all around.

Svuda su uokolo bili fotoaparati i susjedi.

They put me in the car, then they drove me around Palo Alto.

Posjeli su me u auto i zatim vozili po Palo Altu.

They took me to the basement of the police station.

Odveli su me u policijsku postaju,

u podrum policijske postaje. Tada su me zatvorili u ćeliju.

Then they put me in a cell.

I was the first one to be picked up, so they put me in a cell,

Bio sam prvi kojega su doveli pa su me zatvorili u ćeliju

koja je bila poput obične prostorije i imala vrata s rešetkama.

which was just like a room with a door with bars on it.

You could tell it wasn't a real jail.

Moglo se vidjeti da to nije bio pravi zatvor.

Zaključali su me tamo, obučenog u neku ponižavajuću odoru.

They locked me in there, in this degrading little outfit.

They were taking this experiment too seriously.

Preozbiljno su shvatili eksperiment.

Here are the prisoners, who are going to be dehumanized, they'll become numbers.

Evo zatvorenika koji će biti dehumanizirani.

Postati će brojevi.

Ovo su čuvari sa simbolima moći i anonimnosti.

Here are the guards with the symbols of power and anonymity.

Čuvari tjeraju zatvorenike

Guards get prisoners to clean the toilet bowls out with their bare hands,

na čišćenje WC-a golim rukama i

na druge ponižavajuće zadatake.

to do other humiliating tasks.

Skidaju ih gole. Izlažu ih spolnim uvredama.

They strip them naked. They sexually taunt them.

Počinju s ponižavajućim aktivnostima,

They begin to do degrading activities, like having them simulate sodomy.

poput tjeranja zatvorenika na simuliranje sodomije.

You saw simulating fellatio in soldiers in Abu Ghraib.

Vidjeli ste simuliranje oralnog seksa kod vojnika u Abu Ghraibu.

Mojim je čuvarima za to trebalo pet dana. Reakcija na stres je bila toliko ekstremna

My guards did it in five days.

The stress reaction was so extreme

that normal kids we picked because they were healthy

da su normalni mladići koje smo izabrali jer su bili zdravi

had breakdowns within 36 hours.

doživjeli živčani slom za manje od 36 sati.

The study ended after six days, because it was out of control.

Istraživanje je završilo nakon šest dana jer je izmaklo kontroli.

Five kids had emotional breakdowns.

Petero ljudi doživjelo je emocionalni slom.

Does it make a difference

Je li svejedno mijenjaju li ratnici koji idu u bitku

if warriors go to battle changing their appearance or not?

svoj izgled ili ne?

If they're anonymous, how do they treat their victims?

Utječe li njihova anonimnost

na način na koji postupaju sa svojim žrtvama?

In some cultures, they go to war without changing their appearance.

Znamo da ljudi u nekim kulturama pri odlasku u rat

ne mijenjaju svoj izgled.

U drugim kulturama ljudi koriste boje poput likova iz Gospodara muha.

In others, they paint themselves like "Lord of the Flies."

U nekim kulturama nose maske.

In some, they wear masks.

U mnogima, vojnici su anonimni u uniformama.

In many, soldiers are anonymous in uniform.

So this anthropologist, John Watson, found 23 cultures that had two bits of data.

Tako je antropolog John Watson izdvojio

23 kulturne skupine i dvije informacije o svakoj od njih.

Do they change their appearance? 15.

Mijenjaju li izgled? 15.

Do they kill, torture, mutilate? 13.

Ubijaju li, muče, sakate? 13.

Od skupina koje ne mijenjaju svoj izgled

If they don't change their appearance,

samo jedna od osam ubija, muči ili sakati.

only one of eight kills, tortures or mutilates.

Ključ je u crvenoj zoni.

The key is in the red zone.

If they change their appearance,

Ako mijenjaju izgled,

12 od 13 -- to je 90 posto -- ubija, muči, sakati.

12 of 13 -- that's 90 percent -- kill, torture, mutilate.

And that's the power of anonymity.

To je moć anonimnosti.

So what are the seven social processes

Kojih je to onda sedam društvenih procesa

that grease the slippery slope of evil?

koji podmazuju sklisku padinu zla?

Mindlessly taking the first small step.

Bezumno poduzimanje prvog malenog koraka.

Dehumanization of others. De-individuation of self.

Dehumanizacija drugih. Deindividualizacija sebe.

Diffusion of personal responsibility.

Raspršenje osobne odgovornosti. Slijepa poslušnost autoriteta.

Blind obedience to authority.

Uncritical conformity to group norms.

Nekritično prihvaćanje grupnih normi.

Passive tolerance of evil through inaction, or indifference.

Pasivno toleriranje zla nedjelovanjem ili indiferentnošću.

And it happens when you're in a new or unfamiliar situation.

A to se događa u novim ili nepoznatim situacijama.

Uobičajeni uzorci reagiranja ne djeluju.

Your habitual response patterns don't work.

Your personality and morality are disengaged.

Vaša ličnost i moral se razdvajaju.

"Ništa nije lakše nego osuditi onoga koji čini zlo,

"Nothing is easier than to denounce the evildoer;

ništa teže nego razumjeti ga", govori nam Dostojevski.

nothing more difficult than understanding him," Dostoyevsky.

Razumijevanje nije opravdavanje. Psihologija nije "izgovorologija".

Understanding is not excusing. Psychology is not excuse-ology.

So social and psychological research reveals

Društvena i psihološka istraživanja otkrivaju

kako je obične dobre ljude moguće transformirati bez utjecaja droge.

how ordinary, good people can be transformed without the drugs.

You don't need it. You just need the social-psychological processes.

Nepotrebna je. Potrebni su samo socio-psihološki procesi.

Real world parallels?

Usporedbe sa stvarnim svijetom? Usporedite ovo sa sljedećim.

Compare this with this.

James Schlesinger -- I'm going to end with this -- says,

James Schlesinger -- morati ću završiti s ovime -- kaže:

"Psychologists have attempted to understand how and why

"Psiholozi su pokušavali shvatiti kako i zašto

individuals and groups who usually act humanely

pojedinci i grupe koje obično djeluju čovječno

can sometimes act otherwise in certain circumstances."

mogu ponekad, u drugačijim okolnostima, djelovati drugačije."

That's the Lucifer effect.

To je Luciferov efekt.

And he goes on to say, "The landmark Stanford study

Nastavlja: "Značajna stanfordska studija

provides a cautionary tale for all military operations."

predstavlja opomenu za sve vojne operacije."

If you give people power without oversight,

Ako ljudima date moć bez nadzora,

it's a prescription for abuse.

to je recept za zlostavljanje. Oni su to znali i dopustili da se dogodi.

They knew that, and let that happen.

Još jedno izlaganje, istražni izvještaj generala Faya,

So another report, an investigative report by General Fay,

says the system is guilty.

okrivljuje sustav, a u ovom izvješću

In this report, he says it was the environment that created Abu Ghraib,

Fay govori da je okruženje koje je nastalo u Abu Ghraibu

by leadership failures that contributed to the occurrence of such abuse,

zbog neuspješnog vodstva bilo to što je doprinijelo

nastanku takvog zlostavljanja,

and because it remained undiscovered

to i činjenica da je ono dugo ostalo neotkriveno

by higher authorities for a long period of time.

od strane vlasti.

Zlostavljanja su trajala tri mjeseca. Tko je pazio na njih?

Those abuses went on for three months.

Who was watching the store?

The answer is nobody, I think on purpose.

Odgovor je - nitko, i ja mislim - namjerno.

He gave the guards permission to do those things,

"Nitko" je dao čuvarima dopuštenje da čine sve one stvari,

a oni su znali da se nitko nikad neće spustiti dolje u tamnicu.

and they knew nobody was ever going to come down to that dungeon.

Zato je potreban pomak paradigme u svim ovim područjima.

So you need a paradigm shift in all of these areas.

The shift is away from the medical model that focuses only on the individual.

Pomak koji je udaljen od medicinskog modela,

a koji se usredotočuje samo na pojedinca.

The shift is toward a public health model

Pomak prema modelu javnog zdravstva

that recognizes situational and systemic vectors of disease.

koji prepoznaje situacijske i sustavske čimbenika bolesti.

Bullying is a disease. Prejudice is a disease.

Zadirkivanje je bolest. Predrasue su bolest. Nasilje je bolest.

Violence is a disease.

Since the Inquisition, we've been dealing with problems at the individual level.

Još se od inkvizicije problemima bavimo

na individualnoj razini. I znate što? To ne funkcionira.

It doesn't work.

Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn says, "The line between good and evil

Aleksandar Solženjicin rekao je da linija koja dijeli dobro od zla

cuts through the heart of every human being."

zarezuje kroz srce svakog ljudskog bića.

That means that line is not out there.

To znači da granica nije negdje vani.

That's a decision that you have to make, a personal thing.

To je nešto što morate odlučiti. To je osobna stvar.

So I want to end very quickly on a positive note.

Zato želim brzo završiti pozitivnom idejom

Heroism as the antidote to evil,

junaštva kao protuotrova za zlo.

by promoting the heroic imagination,

Promičući junački način razmišljanja,

posebice kod djece, u obrazovnom sustavu

especially in our kids, in our educational system.

We want kids to think, "I'm a hero in waiting,

želimo da djeca razmišljaju - Ja sam budući junak,

čekam da naiđe prava situacija

waiting for the right situation to come along,

and I will act heroically.

i ja ću se ponijeti junački.

My whole life, I'm now going to focus away from evil --

Cijeli moj život sada će se odmaknuti od zla

u kojem sam bio od djetinjstva i okrenuti prema razumijevanju junaka.

that I've been in since I was a kid -- to understanding heroes.

Njihovo poimanje junaštva

Banality of heroism.

su obični ljudi koji čine junačka djela.

It's ordinary people who do heroic deeds.

It's the counterpoint to Hannah Arendt's "Banality of Evil."

To je suprotnost Hannah Arendtinoj Banalnosti zla.

Our traditional societal heroes are wrong, because they are the exceptions.

Junaci naših tradicionalnih društava su pogrešni

jer su iznimke.

They organize their life around this. That's why we know their names.

Organiziraju cijeli svoj život oko toga.

Zato znamo njihova imena.

A junaci naše djece istovremeno su im i uzori

Our kids' heroes are also wrong models for them,

jer imaju nadnaravne moći.

because they have supernatural talents.

We want our kids to realize most heroes are everyday people,

Želimo da naša djeca shvate da su većina junaka obični ljudi,

a da je junaštvo neobičan čin. Ovo je Joe Darby.

and the heroic act is unusual.

This is Joe Darby.

He was the one that stopped those abuses you saw,

On je taj koji je zaustavio zlostavljanja koja ste vidjeli,

jer kada je vidio one slike,

because when he saw those images,

he turned them over to a senior investigating officer.

predao ih je nadređenom istražitelju.

He was a low-level private, and that stopped it.

On je bio običan vojnik i to što je napravio bilo je dovoljno da zaustavi zlostavljanja. Je li bio junak? Nije.

Was he a hero? No.

They had to put him in hiding, because people wanted to kill him,

Morali su ga skrivati, jer su ga ljudi htjeli ubiti,

and then his mother and his wife.

zatim njegovu majku i njegovu suprugu.

Tri godine bili su u bijegu.

For three years, they were in hiding.

This is the woman who stopped the Stanford Prison Study.

Ovo je žena koja je zaustavila studiju Stanfordskog zatvora.

When I said it got out of control, I was the prison superintendent.

Kad sam rekao da je izmakla kontroli, ja sam bio upravitelj zatvora.

I didn't know it was out of control. I was totally indifferent.

Nisam znao da je izvan kontrole. Bio sam potpuno ravnodušnan.

She saw that madhouse and said,

Ona je sišla, vidjela cijelu ludnicu i rekla:

"You know what, it's terrible what you're doing to those boys.

"Znaš što, grozno je to što radiš onim mladićima.

They're not prisoners nor guards, they're boys, and you are responsible."

Oni nisu zatvorenici, oni nisu čuvari,

oni su mladići, a vi ste odgovorni."

And I ended the study the next day.

I sutradan sam prekinuo studiju.

The good news is I married her the next year.

Dobra vijest je da sam se oženio njome sljedeće godine.

(Laughter)

(Smijeh)

(Applause)

(Aplauz)

I just came to my senses, obviously.

Očito sam se opametio.

So situations have the power to do [three things].

Dakle, situacije imaju moć da, putem --

But the point is, this is the same situation

no to je ista situacija

koja može potaknuti neprijateljske misli u nekima od nas,

that can inflame the hostile imagination in some of us,

that makes us perpetrators of evil,

koja nas čini počiniteljima zla,

can inspire the heroic imagination in others.

može nadahnuti junačke misli u drugima. To je ista situacija.

It's the same situation and you're on one side or the other.

A vi ste ili na jednoj ili na drugoj strani.

Most people are guilty of the evil of inaction,

Većina ljudi kriva je za zlo pasivnosti,

because your mother said, "Don't get involved. Mind your own business."

jer vam je majka rekla: "Nemoj se uplitati, gledaj svoja posla."

A vi morate reći: "Mama, čovječnost jest moj posao."

And you have to say, "Mama, humanity is my business."

So the psychology of heroism is -- we're going to end in a moment --

Psihologija junaštva je -- uskoro ćemo završiti --

kako potaknuti djecu u novim programima junaštva,

how do we encourage children in new hero courses,

that I'm working on with Matt Langdon -- he has a hero workshop --

na kojima radim sa Mattom Langdonom -- on vodi radionicu junaštva --

to develop this heroic imagination, this self-labeling,

da razviju ove junačke misli, to samo-označavanje,

"I am a hero in waiting," and teach them skills.

"Ja sam budući junak", te ih učimo vještinama.

To be a hero, you have to learn to be a deviant,

Da bi ste postali junakom morate naučiti ponašati se devijantno,

because you're always going against the conformity of the group.

jer ćete uvijek ići protiv očekivanja grupe.

Junaci su obični ljudi čije su društvene radnje izvanredne. Oni djeluju.

Heroes are ordinary people whose social actions are extraordinary. Who act.

Ključ junaštva su dvije stvari.

The key to heroism is two things.

A: Morate djelovati kada su drugi ljudi pasivni.

You have to act when other people are passive.

B: You have to act socio-centrically, not egocentrically.

B: Morate djelovati sociocentrično, a ne egocentrično.

And I want to end with a known story about Wesley Autrey, New York subway hero.

Želim završiti pričom koju neki od vas znaju,

o Wesleyu Autreyu, junaku njujorške podzemne željeznice.

Fifty-year-old African-American construction worker standing on a subway.

50-godišnji afroamerički građevinski radnik.

Stoji na stanici podzemne željeznice u New Yorku;

A white guy falls on the tracks.

bijelac pada na tračnice.

The subway train is coming. There's 75 people there.

Podzemni vlak dolazi. 75 ljudi je tamo.

You know what? They freeze.

Znate što se dogodilo? Svi su se skamenili.

He's got a reason not to get involved.

On ima razlog da se ne uplete.

He's black, the guy's white, and he's got two kids.

On je crnac, čovjek u nevolji je bijelac, a uz to on ima i dvoje male djece.

Instead, he gives his kids to a stranger,

Umjesto toga, on predaje djecu strancu,

skače na tračnice, stavlja čovjeka između tračnica,

jumps on the tracks, puts the guy between the tracks,

lays on him, the subway goes over him.

legne na njega, i vlak prelazi preko njih.

Wesley and the guy -- 20 and a half inches height.

Wesley i on zajedno su visoki 20.5 inča.

The train clearance is 21 inches.

Vlak je na visini od 21 inča.

A half an inch would have taken his head off.

Još pola inča i odrezao bi mu glavu.

And he said, "I did what anyone could do," no big deal to jump on the tracks.

On kaže: "Napravio sam ono što bi svatko mogao napraviti,

nije velika stvar skočiti na tračnice."

And the moral imperative is "I did what everyone should do."

A moralni imperativ je "Ja sam napravio ono što bi svatko trebao napraviti."

And so one day, you will be in a new situation.

I tako jednog dana, naći ćete se novoj situaciji.

Take path one, you're going to be a perpetrator of evil.

Odaberite prvi put, i bit ćete počinitelj zla.

Evil, meaning you're going to be Arthur Andersen.

Zlo, što znači da ćete biti Arthur Anderson.

You're going to cheat, or you're going to allow bullying.

Varat ćete ili ćete dopustiti nasilje.

Path two, you become guilty of the evil of passive inaction.

Drugi put: bit ćete krivi za zlo pasivnog nedjelovanja.

Path three, you become a hero.

Treći put: postat ćete junak.

Poanta je u tome jesmo li spremni poći putem

The point is, are we ready to take the path to celebrating ordinary heroes,

slavljenja običnih junaka,

waiting for the right situation to come along

čekajući pravu situaciju

kako bismo pokrenuli svoje junačke misli?

to put heroic imagination into action?

Jer to vam se može dogoditi samo jednom u životu,

Because it may only happen once in your life,

and when you pass it by, you'll always know,

a ako propustite priliku, uvijek ćete znati -

Mogao sam biti junak, a propustio sam priliku.

I could have been a hero and I let it pass me by.

So the point is thinking it and then doing it.

Dakle, poanta je zamisliti to, a onda i napraviti.

Zato vam želim zahvaliti. Hvala vam. Hvala vam.

So I want to thank you. Thank you.

Let's oppose the power of evil systems at home and abroad,

Suprostavimo se moći zlih sustava u domovini i inozemstvu,

and let's focus on the positive.

i usredotočimo se na pozitivno.

Advocate for respect of personal dignity, for justice and peace,

Zalažite se za poštivanje osobnog dostojanstva, za pravdu i mir,

which sadly our administration has not been doing.

što, nažalost, naša vlada ne radi.

Puno vam hvala.

Thanks so much.

(Aplauz)

(Applause)