A hilarious celebration of lifelong female friendship | Jane Fonda and Lily Tomlin

翻译人员: Jacky KA 校对人员: Yinchun Rui

Pat Mitchell: So I was thinking about female friendship a lot,

帕特.米歇尔：我对女性友情有很多想法，

and by the way, these two women,

说起来，非常荣幸，我与这两位女士，

I'm very honored to say,

have been my friends for a very long time, too.

已经是老朋友了。

Jane Fonda: Yes we have.

简.方达：是的，我们是。

PM: And one of the things that I read about female friendship

帕特.米歇尔：关于女性友情， 我读过塞万提斯说的一些话，

is something that Cervantes said.

He said, "You can tell a lot about someone,"

他说：“你可以了解一个人的许多事情，”

in this case a woman,

在这里是指一个女人，

"by the company that she keeps."

“仅仅是通过观察她的友伴。”

So let's start with --

所以，让我们由此开始。

(Laughter)

（笑）

JF: We're in big trouble.

简.方达：我们有大麻烦了。

Lily Tomlin: Hand me one of those waters,

莉莉.托姆琳：给我拿杯水，我好渴。

I'm extremely dry.

(Laughter)

（笑声）

JF: You're taking up our time.

简.方达：你在浪费我们的时间，

We have a very limited --

时间有限。

LT: Just being with her sucks the life out of me.

莉莉.托姆琳：你就跟她说吧，不用管我。

(Laughter)

（笑声）

JF: You ain't seen nothing yet.

简.方达：你没有被忽略。

Anyway -- sorry.

不管怎样——抱歉。

PM: So tell me, what do you look for in a friend?

帕特.米歇尔：告诉我， 你们希望找一个什么样的朋友？

LT: I look for someone who has a sense of fun,

莉莉.托姆琳：我寻找那些有幽默感的，

who's audacious,

有勇气的，

who's forthcoming, who has politics,

直率的，有政治信仰的，

who has even a small scrap of passion for the planet,

甚至是对地球有一点点激情的，

someone who's decent, has a sense of justice

有分寸的，有正义感的，

and who thinks I'm worthwhile.

以及认为我是值得交往的。

(Laughter)

（笑）

(Applause)

（鼓掌）

JF: You know, I was thinking this morning,

简.方达：今早我就在考虑这个问题，

I don't even know what I would do without my women friends.

要是没有女性朋友们， 我甚至不知道我该做什么。

I mean it's, "I have my friends, therefore I am."

我要说，“我友故我在。”

LT: (Laughter)

莉莉.托姆琳：（笑）

JF: No, it's true.

简.方达：别取笑我，这是真的。

I exist because I have my women friends. They --

因为我有很多女性朋友， 所以我才有意义地存在。

You're one of them.

你是其中一个。

I don't know about you. But anyway --

我不太了解你。但不管怎样你就是。

(Laughter)

（笑）

You know, they make me stronger, they make me smarter,

你要知道，她们让我更坚强， 更聪明，

they make me braver.

更有勇气。

They tap me on the shoulder when I might be in need of course-correcting.

有需要的时候她们会拍我的肩膀提醒我。

And most of them are a good deal younger than me, too.

而且大多数都比我年轻很多。

You know? I mean, it's nice -- LT: Thank you.

你知道吗？我想说，这感觉很棒。 莉莉.托姆琳：谢谢。

(Laughter)

（笑）

JF: No, I do, I include you in that, because listen, you know --

简.方达：不，我真的这么认为。 其中包括你，听我说——

it's nice to have somebody still around to play with and learn from

在晚年，仍然有人在身边并向对方学习， 是很棒的。

when you're getting toward the end.

I'm approaching -- I'll be there sooner than you.

我会比你先度完余生。

LT: No, I'm glad to have you parallel aging alongside me.

莉莉.托姆琳： 别这么说，我很高兴与你同行。

(Laughter)

（笑）

JF: I'm showing you the way.

简.方达：我在给你引路。

(Laughter)

（笑）

LT: Well, you are and you have.

莉莉.托姆琳：是啊，你一直都在引路。

PM: Well, as we grow older,

帕特.米歇尔：在不断成长、 经历不同生活的旅程中，

and as we go through different kinds of life's journeys,

what do you do to keep your friendships vital and alive?

你们是如何使友情保持活力？

LT: Well you have to use a lot of --

莉莉.托姆琳：你必须经常使用——

JF: She doesn't invite me over much, I'll tell you that.

简.方达：我告诉你，她没有经常邀请我。

LT: I have to use a lot of social media --

莉莉.托姆琳：你必须经常使用社交网络——

You be quiet now. And so --

你现在要安静。所以——

(Laughter)

（笑）

LT: And I look through my emails, I look through my texts

莉莉.托姆琳：我使用电子邮件和短信，

to find my friends,

在清单中寻找我的朋友，

so I can answer them as quickly as possible,

我会尽快答复她们，

because I know they need my counsel.

因为我知道她们需要我的建议。

(Laughter)

（笑）

They need my support,

她们需要我来支持，

because most of my friends are writers, or activists, or actors,

因为大多数朋友是作家， 或者社会活动家，或者演员。

and you're all three ...

而你属于这全部三者，

and a long string of other descriptive phrases,

还有其它许多可以描述的角色。

and I want to get to you as soon as possible,

我会尽快跟你联系上，

I want you to know that I'm there for you.

我想要你知道我一直在等候你。

JF: Do you do emojis?

简.方达：你会发表情符号吗？

LT: Oh ... JF: No?

莉莉.托姆琳：噢。。。 简.方达：没有？

LT: That's embarrassing. JF: I'm really into emojis.

莉莉.托姆琳：那很麻烦。 简.方达：我很喜欢用表情符号。

LT: No, I spell out my --

莉莉.托姆琳：我用文字表达我的——

I spell out my words of happiness and congratulations,

我用文字表达我的开心、祝贺以及伤心。

and sadness.

JF: You spell it right out --

简.方达：你用文字表达——

LT: I spell it, every letter.

莉莉.托姆琳：用每个字母表达。

(Laughter)

（笑）

JF: Such a purist.

简.方达：真是洁癖。

You know, as I've gotten older,

你要知道，我比你更好，

I've understood more the importance of friendships,

我也更清楚友情的重要，

and so, I really make an effort

所以我实实在在地努力与朋友们往来—— 而不过多浪费时间。

to reach out and make play dates -- not let too much time go by.

I read a lot

我读很多书，

so, as Lily knows all too well,

所以，莉莉也知道的，

my books that I like, I send to my friends.

我会把喜欢的书送给朋友们。

LT: When we knew we would be here today

莉莉.托姆琳：当知道我们今天要做这个谈话，

you sent me a lot of books about women, female friendships,

你送给我了很多关于妇女、女性友情的书，

and I was so surprised to see how many books,

我很好奇，到目前为止总共有多少相关的书籍， 以及进行了多少研究——

how much research has been done recently --

JF: And were you grateful? LT: I was grateful.

简.方达：你喜欢吗？ 莉莉.托姆琳：喜欢。

(Laughter)

（笑）

PM: And --

帕特.米歇尔：然后——

LT: Wait, no, it's really important because this is another example

莉莉.托姆琳：等等，这很重要，

因为这是妇女被忽略、排斥、 轻视的又一个例证。

of how women are overlooked, put aside, marginalized.

There's been very little research done on us,

虽然已经贡献了大量的时间， 但是实质上只进行了极少的研究。

even though we volunteered lots of times.

JF: That's for sure.

简.方达： 这是事实。

(Laughter)

（笑）

LT: This is really exciting, and you all will be interested in this.

莉莉.托姆琳：这很有吸引力， 并且你们都对它感兴趣。

The Harvard Medical School study has shown

哈佛医学院研究表明，

that women who have close female friendships

女人拥有亲密的女性朋友，

are less likely to develop impairments --

就会更少地遭受伤痛——

physical impairments as they age,

与年龄相对应的身体伤痛，

and they are likely to be seen to be living much more vital, exciting --

而且会过的更加充实、愉快——

JF: And longer --

简.方达：活的更久——

LT: Joyful lives.

莉莉.托姆琳：快乐的生活。

JF: We live five years longer than men.

简.方达：我们比男人年长5岁。

LT: I think I'd trade the years for joy.

莉莉.托姆琳：我想把这拿来换取喜悦。

(Laughter)

（笑）

LT: But the most important part is they found --

莉莉.托姆琳：最重要的是他们发现——

the results were so exciting and so conclusive --

结果令人兴奋且不容置疑——

the researchers found

研究人员发现，

that not having close female friends is detrimental to your health,

没有亲密的女性朋友对你的健康有害，

as much as smoking or being overweight.

就如同吸烟或肥胖。

JF: And there's something else, too --

简.方达：还有其它的——

LT: I've said my part, so ...

莉莉.托姆琳：我说的是我要说的， 所以。。。

(Laughter)

（笑）

JF: OK, well, listen to my part, because there's an additional thing.

简.方达：好的，听听我要说的， 因为有一个补充。

Because they only -- for years, decades --

因为他们只—— 有几年、几十年——

they only researched men when they were trying to understand stress,

研究压力时，他们只研究男人，

only very recently have they researched what happens to women when we're stressed,

仅仅在最近他们才开始研究， 女性遭受压力时发生了什么，

and it turns out that when we're stressed -- women,

而且事实表明， 当我们女性遭受压力时，

our bodies get flooded by oxytocin.

体内充满了催长素，

Which is a feel-good, calming, stress-reducing hormone.

是能使人感觉良好、冷静、 降低压力的荷尔蒙。

Which is also increased when we're with our women friends.

当与女性朋友在一起时， 这种荷尔蒙也会增多。

And I do think that's one reason why we live longer.

我实在觉得， 那是我们活得更久的原因。

And I feel so bad for men because they don't have that.

并且我同情男人因为他们没有。

Testosterone in men diminishes the effects of oxytocin.

睾丸素的效果与催长素的相反。

LT: Well, when you and I and Dolly made "9 to 5" ...

莉莉.托姆琳：当你跟我以及多丽 一起公司上班的时候，

JF: Oh --

简.方达：噢——

LT: We laughed, we did, we laughed so much,

莉莉.托姆琳：那时我们实在很开心，

we found we had so much in common and we're so different.

我们发现我们有那么多 共同点以及不同点。

Here she is, like Hollywood royalty,

她在这里，像好莱坞明星，

I'm like a tough kid from Detroit,

我像个底特律来的野孩子。

[Dolly's] a Southern kid from a poor town in Tennessee,

（多丽的）田纳西一个贫穷村庄来的南部小孩，

and we found we were so in sync as women,

我们发现作为女性， 我们能够在那么的息息相通，

and we must have --

并且我们肯定——

we laughed -- we must have added at least a decade onto our lifespans.

笑得那么开心—— 我们肯定延长了至少十年的寿命。

JF: I think -- we sure crossed our legs a lot.

简.方达：我想—— 我们确实有很多共同点

(Laughter)

（笑）

If you know what I mean.

你知道我在说什么吧。

LT: I think we all know what you mean.

莉莉.托姆琳： 我想我们都知道你在说什么。

(Laughter)

（笑）

PM: You're adding decades to our lives right now.

帕特.米歇尔： 你现在就给我们增长了几十年的寿命。

So among the books that Jane sent us both to read on female friendship

在简送给我们读的书当中， 关于女性友情，

was one by a woman we admire greatly, Sister Joan Chittister,

有一位我们非常崇敬的女性， 修女琼‧齐谛斯特，

who said about female friendship

关于女性友情，

that women friends are not just a social act,

他说女性朋友不只是社交活动，

they're a spiritual act.

也是灵魂的活动。

Do you think of your friends as spiritual?

你们认为你们的朋友有想法吗？

Do they add something spiritual to your lives?

她们为你们的生活带来有想法的东西吗？

LT: Spiritual -- I absolutely think that.

莉莉.托姆琳：想法—— 我真的也是这么认为的。

Because -- especially people you've known a long time,

因为——特别是那些你已经认识很久了的，

people you've spent time with --

已经相互陪伴很久的人们——

I can see the spiritual essence inside them,

我能够在她们身上看到她们的本质，

the tenderness, the vulnerability.

她们的亲和力，还有软弱的地方。

There's actually kind of a love, an element of love in the relationship.

在友情中存在爱， 以及爱的元素。

I just see deeply into your soul.

我看到了你们的灵魂深处。

PM: Do you think that, Jane --

帕特.米歇尔：你同意吗，简——

LT: But I have special powers.

莉莉.托姆琳：我有特异功能。

JF: Well, there's all kinds of friends.

简.方达：有各种各样的朋友，

There's business friends, and party friends,

有商业朋友和聚会朋友，

I've got a lot of those.

我有很多这样的朋友。

(Laughter)

（笑）

But the oxytocin-producing friendships have ...

但是那些能生产催产素的友情——

They feel spiritual because it's a heart opening, right?

她们感觉不同是因为这打开了心扉，对吗？

You know, we go deep. And --

你们要知道，我们进行得很深入。并且——

I find that I shed tears a lot with my intimate friends.

我发现，为我的好友我流了很多眼泪。

Not because I'm sad but because I'm so touched and inspired by them.

不是因为感到悲伤， 而是为了她们感动。

LT: And you know one of you is going to go soon.

莉莉.托姆琳： 还有你知道你们中一人马上要死了。

(Laughter)

（笑）

PM: Well, two of us are sitting here, Lily, which one are you talking about?

帕特.米歇尔：我们有两个人坐在这里， 莉莉，你说的是哪一个？

(Laughter)

（笑）

And I always think, when women talk about their friendships,

我一直觉得， 当妇女们谈论她们的友情时，

that men always look a little mystified.

男人们总是有些迷惑，

What are the differences, in your opinion,

你们觉得，男性友情与女性友情， 有什么不同？

between men friendships and women friendships?

JF: There's a lot of difference,

简.方达：有很多不同，

and I think we have to have a lot of empathy for men --

我觉得我们必须同情男人，

(Laughter)

（笑）

that they don't have what we have.

他们没有我们所拥有的东西，

Which I think may be why they die sooner.

我觉得这也许是他们死得早的原因。

(Laughter)

（笑）

I have a lot of compassion for men,

我非常同情男人，

because women, no kidding, we --

因为女人，没有开玩笑的，我们——

women's relationships, our friendships are full disclosure, we go deep.

女性友情，我们的友情是深植的， 我们相处的很深入。

They're revelatory.

他们是启发性的，

We risk vulnerability -- this is something men don't do.

我们体会感性—— 这是男人没有的。

I mean how many times have I asked you, "Am I doing OK?"

比方说，我经常问你，“我做得好吗？”

"Did I really screw up there?"

“我弄糟了吗？”

PM: You're doing great.

帕特.米歇尔：你做得很棒。

(Laughter)

（笑）

JF: But I mean, we ask questions like that

简.方达：我的意思是， 我们与女性朋友们像这样提出问题 ，

of our women friends,

and men don't.

但男人不会，

You know, people describe women's relationships as face-to-face,

你们知道，人们认为女性友情是面对面的，

whereas men's friendships are more side-by-side.

而男性友情是肩并肩的。

LT: I mean most of the time men don't want to reveal their emotions,

莉莉.托姆琳： 我觉得男人们经常并不会发泄情感，

they want to bury deeper feelings.

而是要隐藏他们的内心感受。

I mean, that's the general, conventional thought.

那是普遍、传统的看法。

They would rather go off in their man cave and watch a game or hit golf balls,

他们宁愿回到男人的洞穴里， 看一场热门高尔乎球赛，

or talk about sports, or hunting, or cars or have sex.

或谈论体育，或打猎，或汽车或做爱。

I mean, it's just the kind of -- it's a more manly behavior.

我想说的是，比如是这样更男人的行为。

JF: You meant -- LT: They talk about sex.

简.方达：你是说—— 莉莉.托姆琳：他们谈论性爱。

I meant they might have sex

我是说，他们可能会做爱，

if they could get somebody in their man cave to --

如果他们能把某个人逮到他们男人的洞穴里——

(Laughter)

（笑）

JF: You know something, though, that I find very interesting --

简.方达：然而我发现一些有趣的事情， 你也知道的——

and again, psychologists didn't know this until relatively recently --

并且是心理学家最近才知道的——

is that men are born every bit as relational as women are.

男人出生的时候与女人极其相像。

If you look at films of newborn baby boys and girls,

要是你看新生儿的电影，

you'll see the baby boys just like the girls,

就会发现男孩很像女孩，

gazing into their mother's eyes,

盯着妈妈的研究，

you know, needing that relational exchange of energy.

你知道的，要求相互间的能量交流，

When the mother looks away, they could see the dismay on the child,

当妈妈看向别处，他们就会感到沮丧，

even the boy would cry.

甚至会哭出来。

They need relationship.

他们需要情感。

So the question is why, as they grow older, does that change?

所以问题是，随着年岁增长， 他们为什么变了？

And the answer is patriarchal culture,

答案是父权文化，

which says to boys and young men

它告诉男孩和年轻男人，

that to be needing of relationship, to be emotional with someone is girly.

跟人建立联系及产生感情是女性化的；

That a real man doesn't ask directions or express a need,

并且一个真正的男人 不要去问方向或表达一个需求。

they don't go to doctors if they feel bad.

如果感觉不好，他们不会去看医生。

They don't ask for help.

他们不会要求帮助。

There's a quote that I really like,

我想饮用一段很喜欢的话，

"Men fear that becoming 'we' will erase his 'I'."

“男人们对用'我们’代替‘我’而感到恐惧。”

You know, his sense of self.

你们知道的，这是男人的自我，

Whereas women's sense of self has always been kind of porous.

相对来说，女人的自我确是多样性的。

But our "we" is our saving grace,

但是我们说的“我们”是我们基本的优雅，

it's what makes us strong.

它使我们强大，

It's not that we're better than men,

并不是说我们比男人更好，

we just don't have our masculinity to prove.

我们只是不需要证明男子气概。

LT: And, well --

莉莉.托姆琳：然后——

JF: That's a Gloria Steinem quote.

简.方达：那时葛罗莉亚·斯坦能说的。

So we can express our humanity -- LT: I know who Gloria Steinem is.

所以我们能够表达我们的仁慈。 莉莉.托姆琳：我知道葛罗莉亚·斯坦能是谁。

JF: I know you know who she is, but I think it's a --

简.方达：我了解你知道她的， 但是我想这是一个——

(Laughter)

（笑）

No, but it's a great quote, I think.

别笑，我想这是一个了不起的引用。

We're not better than men, we just don't have our masculinity to prove.

我们不用比男人更好， 我们只是不需要证明男子气概。

And that's really important.

那确实非常重要。

LT: But men are so inculcated in the culture

莉莉.托姆琳：但是在社会文化中, 男人被教育地以适应男权社会。

to be comfortable in the patriarchy.

And we've got to make something different happen.

我们必须做些改变。

JF: Women's friendships are like a renewable source of power.

简.方达： 女性友情就像是不断涌出的能量源泉。

LT: Well, that's what's exciting about this subject.

莉莉.托姆琳：是的， 这就是这个主题令人感兴趣的地方。

It's because our friendships --

因为我们的友情——

female friendships are just a hop to our sisterhood,

女性友情往上就是我们的闺蜜情感，

and sisterhood can be a very powerful force,

闺蜜感情有非常强大的力量奉献给世界——

to give the world --

to make it what it should be --

使之变成本应该发展成的样子——

the things that humans desperately need.

变成人类真正需要的样子。

PM: It is why we're talking about it,

帕特.米歇尔：我们为什么要讨论这个，

because women's friendships are,

因为女性友情是，

as you said, Jane,

像你说的，简，

a renewable source of power.

不断涌现的力量源泉。

So how do we use that power?

我们要如何利用这个力量？

JF: Well, women are the fastest growing demographic in the world,

简.方达：在世界上女性人数增长最快，

especially older women.

特别是年长的妇女。

And if we harness our power, we can change the world.

如果利用好我们的能量， 我们就能够改变世界。

And guess what? We need to.

猜猜看会变什么样？我们必须改变。

(Applause)

（鼓掌）

And we need to do it soon.

并且我们必须马上开始。

And one of the things that we need to do --

我们需要做的一件事情——

and we can do it as women --

作为女人我们能做的——

for one thing, we kind of set the consumer standards.

首先，我们要设定好新的消费标准。

We need to consume less.

要减少消费。

We in the Western world need to consume less

在西方世界里我们要减少消费，

and when we buy things, we need to buy things that are made locally,

买东西时，我们要买当地生产的，

when we buy food, we need to buy food that's grown locally.

买食物时，要买当地种植的。

We are the ones that need to get off the grid.

我们需要卸下输电网，

We need to make ourselves independent from fossil fuels.

不依赖于矿物燃料，

And the fossil fuel companies --

以及矿物燃料公司，

the Exxons and the Shell Oils and those bad guys --

Exxons公司和Shell Oils公司， 以及那些坏家伙——

cause they are --

因为他们威胁我们， 将会回到石器时代。

are going to tell us that we can't do it without going back to the Stone Age.

You know, that the alternatives just aren't quite there yet,

众所周知，我们已经有了可选择的新能源，

and that's not true.

并且那些家伙说的是错的。

There are countries in the world right now

现在世界上很多公司主要依靠可再生能源， 并且发展得很好。

that are living mostly on renewable energy and doing just fine.

And they tell us that if we do wean ourselves from fossil fuel

他们威胁说，要是脱离了化石燃料，

that we're going to be back in the Stone Age,

我们将会回到石器时代，

and in fact, if we begin to use renewable energy,

但事实上，如果我们开始使用可再生能源，

and not drill in the Arctic, and not drill --

不去开采北极， 不去开采——

LT: Oh, boy.

莉莉.托姆琳：哎呀。

JF: And not drill in the Alberta tar sands --

简.方达：不去开采阿尔伯塔焦油砂。

Right.

对。

That we will be --

那将会是——

there will be more democracy and more jobs and more well-being,

会变得更加民主， 有更多的工作和人口，

and it's women that are going to lead the way.

并且将会由女性来领导。

LT: Maybe we have the momentum to start a third-wave feminist movement

莉莉.托姆琳：或许我们有力量 发起第三波女权主义运动，

with our sisterhood around the world,

其中有在全世界的姐妹们。

with women we don't see, women we may never meet,

也有我们没见过的、 也可能一直都见不到的女士们，

but we join together that way,

我们由此加入到同一个行动中。

because --

因为——

Aristotle said --

亚里士多德说过——

most people --

许多人——

people would die without male friendships.

要是没有男性朋友就会死。

And the operative word here was "male."

这里的主角是“男性”。

Because they thought that friendships should be between equals

因为他们认为友情的平等存在于男性之间，

and women were not considered equal --

而女性却不享有平等——

JF: They didn't think we had souls even, the Greeks.

简.方达：希腊人甚至不相信我们有灵魂。

LT: No, exactly. That shows you just how limited Aristotle was.

莉莉.托姆琳：的确如此。 这显示亚里士多德多么无知。

(Laughter)

（笑）

And wait, no, here's the best part.

等等，这可是最重要的部分。

It's like, you know, men do need women now.

就像，男人确实需要女人。

The planet needs women.

地球需要女人。

The US Constitution needs women.

美国宪法需要女人。

We are not even in the Constitution.

我们甚至不在宪法中。

JF: You're talking about the Equal Rights Amendment.

简.方达：你在提及平等权利宪法修正案。

LT: Right.

莉莉.托姆琳：对。

Justice Ginsberg said something like --

大法官金斯伯格说这样说过——

every constitution that's been written since the end of World War II

每条宪法条款都是在二战结束之后写的，

included a provision that made women citizens of equal stature,

包括妇女公民权利平等的条款，

but ours does not.

但是实际上我们并不平等。

So that would be a good place to start.

所以我们恰好可以从这里着手。

Very, very mild --

她非常平和地说了这个——

JF: Right.

简.方达：对。

(Applause)

（鼓掌）

And gender equality, it's like a tide,

性别平等，就像一个潮流，

it would lift all boats, not just women.

会掀起所有的船，不仅仅是女性。

PM: Needing new role models on how to do that.

帕特.米歇尔：需要新的角色模范来 为大家示范，

How to be friends,

如何结交朋友，

how to think about our power in different ways,

如何重新看待我们的能力。

as consumers,

作为消费者，

as citizens of the world,

作为世界公民，

and this is what makes Jane and Lily

正是由此，简和莉莉成为我们的模范，

a role model of how women can be friends --

为示范了地久天长的友谊，

for a very long time,

and even if they occasionally disagree.

即使他们什么时候突然有了分歧 (也仍然是我们的模范）。

Thank you.

谢谢。

Thank you both.

谢谢两位。

(Applause)

（鼓掌）

JF: Thanks.

简.方达：谢谢。

LT: Thank you.

莉莉.托姆琳：谢谢大家。

JF: Thank you.

简.方达：谢谢大家。

(Applause)

（鼓掌）