A hilarious celebration of lifelong female friendship | Jane Fonda and Lily Tomlin

譯者: Christian Grey 審譯者: Ming Gui Tan

Pat Mitchell: So I was thinking about female friendship a lot,

帕特·米歇爾(PM)： 我最近一直在思索女性友誼

and by the way, these two women,

對了，我很榮幸向大家介紹

I'm very honored to say,

這兩位女士

have been my friends for a very long time, too.

是認識非常久的老朋友

Jane Fonda: Yes we have.

珍‧芳達(JF)：的確

PM: And one of the things that I read about female friendship

PM：我曾讀過賽凡提斯講述 有關女性友誼的話

is something that Cervantes said.

He said, "You can tell a lot about someone,"

他說

從一個人的朋友群

in this case a woman,

這裡我們是指女生

"by the company that she keeps."

就可以看得出那人的修養

So let's start with --

那我們來開始

(Laughter)

（笑聲）

JF: We're in big trouble.

JF：我們有大麻煩了

Lily Tomlin: Hand me one of those waters,

莉莉‧湯姆琳(LT)：水遞過來，我很渴

I'm extremely dry.

(Laughter)

（笑聲）

JF: You're taking up our time.

JF：妳在佔用我們的時間

We have a very limited --

我們只有非常有限...

LT: Just being with her sucks the life out of me.

LT：單單跟她在一起 就快榨光我的命了

(Laughter)

（笑聲）

JF: You ain't seen nothing yet.

JF：妳還沒看到更厲害的呢！

Anyway -- sorry.

好啦總之對不起

PM: So tell me, what do you look for in a friend?

PM：告訴我，妳在朋友身上尋求什麼

LT: I look for someone who has a sense of fun,

LT：我尋找有幽默感、勇於創新

who's audacious,

who's forthcoming, who has politics,

樂於助人、有政治觀

who has even a small scrap of passion for the planet,

甚至有點熱愛地球

someone who's decent, has a sense of justice

舉止得體、有正義感

and who thinks I'm worthwhile.

並看重我的人

(Laughter)

（笑聲）

(Applause)

（鼓掌）

JF: You know, I was thinking this morning,

JF：今早我在想

我根本無法想像 沒有我的女性朋友會怎樣

I don't even know what I would do without my women friends.

I mean it's, "I have my friends, therefore I am."

我的意思是說

我有朋友，故我在

LT: (Laughter)

LT：（笑聲）

JF: No, it's true.

JF：真的，沒騙妳

我因我的女性朋友們而存在

I exist because I have my women friends. They --

You're one of them.

妳也是其中之一

I don't know about you. But anyway --

至於妳這朋友，我就不知道了，反正...

(Laughter)

（笑聲）

You know, they make me stronger, they make me smarter,

她們使我更堅強、更聰明、更勇敢

they make me braver.

They tap me on the shoulder when I might be in need of course-correcting.

當我需要指正時 她們會來拍拍我肩膀

And most of them are a good deal younger than me, too.

而且大多都比我年輕很多

You know? I mean, it's nice -- LT: Thank you.

我是說，其實這滿不賴的 LT：真是謝囉

(Laughter)

（笑聲）

JF: No, I do, I include you in that, because listen, you know --

JF：我是認真的 我把妳歸在那類是因為

it's nice to have somebody still around to play with and learn from

在邁向人生終點的旅途

仍有人可以陪妳玩，讓妳學習是很棒的

when you're getting toward the end.

I'm approaching -- I'll be there sooner than you.

我越來越靠近死亡 我會比妳早抵達的

LT: No, I'm glad to have you parallel aging alongside me.

LT：不，我很高興有妳陪我一起老去

(Laughter)

（笑聲）

JF: I'm showing you the way.

JF：我在幫妳帶路呢

(Laughter)

（笑聲）

LT: Well, you are and you have.

LT：妳一直以來都是

PM: Well, as we grow older,

PM：隨著我們年齡增長

and as we go through different kinds of life's journeys,

我們走過不同人生旅途

what do you do to keep your friendships vital and alive?

妳們是如何維持友誼的

LT: Well you have to use a lot of --

LT：妳必須用很多...

JF: She doesn't invite me over much, I'll tell you that.

JF：對了。她不常邀我去她家

LT：我需要用很多社群媒體

LT: I have to use a lot of social media --

妳給我閉嘴，然後...

You be quiet now. And so --

（笑聲）

(Laughter)

LT: And I look through my emails, I look through my texts

LT：我看過每一封電郵、簡訊

to find my friends,

來找到朋友以便可以盡快回覆他們

so I can answer them as quickly as possible,

because I know they need my counsel.

因為我知道他們需要我的忠告

(Laughter)

（笑聲）

They need my support,

他們需要我的支持

because most of my friends are writers, or activists, or actors,

因為我的朋友大多都是 作家、社運領導人或演員

and you're all three ...

而妳三者兼具

and a long string of other descriptive phrases,

外加一長串描述性字句

and I want to get to you as soon as possible,

我希望我可以盡快與妳聯繫上

I want you to know that I'm there for you.

我想讓妳知道我與妳同在

JF: Do you do emojis?

JF：妳玩表情符號嗎

LT: Oh ... JF: No?

LT：呃 JF：沒有嗎

LT：這有點尷尬 JF：我超愛表情符號的

LT: That's embarrassing. JF: I'm really into emojis.

LT：不，我都會拼出我的

LT: No, I spell out my --

我拼出我的快樂、恭喜與悲傷

I spell out my words of happiness and congratulations,

and sadness.

JF：妳把它們全都拼出來

JF: You spell it right out --

LT: I spell it, every letter.

LT：我拼出每一個字母

(Laughter)

（笑聲）

JF: Such a purist.

JF：真是有夠龜毛

You know, as I've gotten older,

當我越來越老時

I've understood more the importance of friendships,

我越來越理解友誼的重要性

and so, I really make an effort

也因此我花了很多精力

to reach out and make play dates -- not let too much time go by.

找朋友玩，安排派對 不讓太多時間白白流逝

I read a lot

我讀很多書

因此如同莉莉所知

so, as Lily knows all too well,

我會把喜歡的書寄給我朋友

my books that I like, I send to my friends.

LT: When we knew we would be here today

LT：當我們知道今天要來這裡時

妳寄給我一大堆有關 女人跟女性友誼的書

you sent me a lot of books about women, female friendships,

and I was so surprised to see how many books,

我很訝異看到最近

竟有出版那麼多的書跟研究

how much research has been done recently --

JF: And were you grateful? LT: I was grateful.

JF：妳有很感激嗎 LT：有喔

(Laughter)

（笑聲）

PM: And --

PM：那麼

LT: Wait, no, it's really important because this is another example

LT：等等，這很重要因為這是另一個

of how women are overlooked, put aside, marginalized.

有關女人是如何被忽略 擱在一邊、邊緣化的例子

There's been very little research done on us,

很少有關我們的研究

even though we volunteered lots of times.

儘管我們多次自願

JF: That's for sure.

JF：沒錯

(Laughter)

（笑聲）

LT：這個滿有趣的 你們都會對這感興趣的

LT: This is really exciting, and you all will be interested in this.

哈佛醫學院的研究指出

The Harvard Medical School study has shown

that women who have close female friendships

維持親密女性友誼的女人

are less likely to develop impairments --

身體比較不容易衰退

physical impairments as they age,

隨著年紀身體的衰退

and they are likely to be seen to be living much more vital, exciting --

她們也較容易過更有活力精彩

JF: And longer --

JF：還有更長

LT: Joyful lives.

LT：快樂的人生

JF: We live five years longer than men.

JF：我們平均比男生多活五年

LT: I think I'd trade the years for joy.

LT：我想我甘願短命一點換取快樂晚年

(Laughter)

（笑聲）

LT: But the most important part is they found --

LT：但最重要的是他們發現

the results were so exciting and so conclusive --

這些結果十分振奮人心而確切

the researchers found

研究指出

that not having close female friends is detrimental to your health,

沒有女性摯友對身體健康有害

as much as smoking or being overweight.

與抽菸或過重有同等效果

JF: And there's something else, too --

JF：當然還有其他結論

LT: I've said my part, so ...

LT：反正我把我的部分講完了

(Laughter)

（笑聲）

JF: OK, well, listen to my part, because there's an additional thing.

JF：好，那現在聽我的部分

因為還有一件事情

這幾十年當他們嘗試理解壓力時

Because they only -- for years, decades --

they only researched men when they were trying to understand stress,

他們只研究男生

直到最近他們才研究 女生面對壓力時的狀況

only very recently have they researched what happens to women when we're stressed,

and it turns out that when we're stressed -- women,

結論是當我們有壓力時

我們身體會分泌大量催產素

our bodies get flooded by oxytocin.

Which is a feel-good, calming, stress-reducing hormone.

一個讓妳感覺良好 平靜、舒壓的賀爾蒙

Which is also increased when we're with our women friends.

當我們跟女性朋友在一起時 它的濃度也會上升

And I do think that's one reason why we live longer.

而我確信它是其中一個 讓我們活得比較久的理由

而我由衷對男生感到抱歉 因為他們沒有

And I feel so bad for men because they don't have that.

Testosterone in men diminishes the effects of oxytocin.

男生體內的睪固酮 會降低催產素的效果

LT：當妳跟我還有桃莉 一起拍攝喜劇《朝九晚五》時

LT: Well, when you and I and Dolly made "9 to 5" ...

JF: Oh --

JF：噢

LT：我們一直笑個不停

LT: We laughed, we did, we laughed so much,

we found we had so much in common and we're so different.

我們發現我們有許多共同點 但我們也是如此不同

Here she is, like Hollywood royalty,

她就像好萊塢貴族

我就像來自底特律的頑強孩子

I'm like a tough kid from Detroit,

（桃莉）是來自田納西 貧窮小鎮的南方小孩

[Dolly's] a Southern kid from a poor town in Tennessee,

and we found we were so in sync as women,

我們發現身為女人 我們在一起是多麼和諧

and we must have --

而我們大笑的程度一定有 至少幫自己延長十年的壽命

we laughed -- we must have added at least a decade onto our lifespans.

JF: I think -- we sure crossed our legs a lot.

JF：我們倒是很常翹腳

(Laughter)

（笑聲）

If you know what I mean.

如果妳知道我在說什麼

LT: I think we all know what you mean.

LT：我想我們都知道妳在說什麼

(Laughter)

（笑聲）

PM: You're adding decades to our lives right now.

PM：妳們正在幫我們延長幾十年壽命

因此在珍送我們 眾多有關女性友誼的書中

So among the books that Jane sent us both to read on female friendship

有一本作者是我們十分景仰的 Sister Joan Chittister

was one by a woman we admire greatly, Sister Joan Chittister,

她說過有關女性友誼的話

who said about female friendship

that women friends are not just a social act,

女性朋友不單只是社交性的

they're a spiritual act.

她也是精神性的

Do you think of your friends as spiritual?

妳覺得妳的朋友是精神上的益友嗎

Do they add something spiritual to your lives?

他們有帶給妳人生精神上的影響嗎

LT: Spiritual -- I absolutely think that.

LT：精神上嘛，我確信是如此

特別是一個你認識很久

Because -- especially people you've known a long time,

people you've spent time with --

你花很多時間相處的人

I can see the spiritual essence inside them,

我可以從他們身上看到精神上的元素

the tenderness, the vulnerability.

柔和、脆弱

There's actually kind of a love, an element of love in the relationship.

實際上在這關係裡有一種愛的成分

I just see deeply into your soul.

我只是深深地看透朋友的心靈罷了

PM: Do you think that, Jane --

PM：妳認同嗎，珍？ LT：但我有超能力

LT: But I have special powers.

JF: Well, there's all kinds of friends.

JF：朋友各式各樣

有生意上的朋友和派對朋友

There's business friends, and party friends,

I've got a lot of those.

這類型的我有很多

(Laughter)

（笑聲）

But the oxytocin-producing friendships have ...

但是讓催產素分泌的友誼

這種友誼是精神上的 因為讓人敞開心房，對吧？

They feel spiritual because it's a heart opening, right?

You know, we go deep. And --

我們很深入了解彼此，然後

我發現與閨密在一起時，經常掉眼淚

I find that I shed tears a lot with my intimate friends.

Not because I'm sad but because I'm so touched and inspired by them.

不是因為我傷心 而是因為我被他們感動和啟發

LT: And you know one of you is going to go soon.

LT：而且妳知道其中有個人就快要走了

(Laughter)

（笑聲）

PM: Well, two of us are sitting here, Lily, which one are you talking about?

PM：莉莉，我們兩個人都坐在這裡

妳是說誰啊

(Laughter)

（笑聲）

And I always think, when women talk about their friendships,

而且我覺得當女人談友誼時

that men always look a little mystified.

男人總是有點不解

What are the differences, in your opinion,

在妳的認知裡

between men friendships and women friendships?

到底男性友誼跟女性友誼有何差別

JF: There's a lot of difference,

JF：這有很多差別啊

and I think we have to have a lot of empathy for men --

我想我們對男人需要很多同理心

(Laughter)

（笑聲）

that they don't have what we have.

因為他們沒有我們所擁有的

我想這也是為什麼他們比較早死吧

Which I think may be why they die sooner.

(Laughter)

（笑聲）

I have a lot of compassion for men,

我對男人深感同情

because women, no kidding, we --

因為女人，我沒有在開玩笑

我們女性友誼是不隱藏、深入

women's relationships, our friendships are full disclosure, we go deep.

They're revelatory.

是坦承一切的

We risk vulnerability -- this is something men don't do.

我們冒著自身的脆弱 而這是男人不會做的

像是，我多次問妳 妳覺得我怎樣

I mean how many times have I asked you, "Am I doing OK?"

"Did I really screw up there?"

我真的把一切搞砸了嗎

PM: You're doing great.

PM：妳做的很棒

(Laughter)

（笑聲）

JF: But I mean, we ask questions like that

JF：我想表達的是 我們會問女性朋友這種問題

of our women friends,

and men don't.

但男人不會

You know, people describe women's relationships as face-to-face,

人們常把女性關係描述成面對面

whereas men's friendships are more side-by-side.

但把男性關係描述成肩並肩

LT: I mean most of the time men don't want to reveal their emotions,

LT：我是覺得多數時間男生不願意表露情感

they want to bury deeper feelings.

他們寧可把更深層的感覺隱藏起來

I mean, that's the general, conventional thought.

我想大致上那是傳統的認知吧

They would rather go off in their man cave and watch a game or hit golf balls,

他們寧可躲進男人窩裡面 看場比賽打打高爾夫球

or talk about sports, or hunting, or cars or have sex.

或談談運動、打獵、汽車或做愛

I mean, it's just the kind of -- it's a more manly behavior.

我是說這是種比較男人的行為

JF: You meant -- LT: They talk about sex.

JF：妳說... LT：他們談論性吧

I meant they might have sex

我是說他們可以做愛

if they could get somebody in their man cave to --

如果他們把人帶進男人窩裡的話

(Laughter)

（笑聲）

JF：我發現有件事很有趣

JF: You know something, though, that I find very interesting --

and again, psychologists didn't know this until relatively recently --

再一次地，心理學家是最近才發現的

is that men are born every bit as relational as women are.

男生與女生出生時 是有相同的情感取向的

If you look at films of newborn baby boys and girls,

如果你看新生男孩、女孩的影片

you'll see the baby boys just like the girls,

你會發現其實男孩跟女孩一樣

gazing into their mother's eyes,

會凝視媽媽的眼睛

你知道的，他們需要情感上的的能量交換

you know, needing that relational exchange of energy.

When the mother looks away, they could see the dismay on the child,

當媽媽望向其他地方時

他們可以看到寶寶臉上的沮喪

even the boy would cry.

男生甚至會哭

They need relationship.

他們需要情感

So the question is why, as they grow older, does that change?

所以問題是 為什麼長大後這個取向變了

And the answer is patriarchal culture,

答案是父權文化的關係

which says to boys and young men

需要情感或感性的男孩與年輕男性

that to be needing of relationship, to be emotional with someone is girly.

是很女孩子氣的

真正的男人不需要 詢問方向或表示需求

That a real man doesn't ask directions or express a need,

當他們生病時不會去看醫生

they don't go to doctors if they feel bad.

They don't ask for help.

他們不求救

There's a quote that I really like,

有一句引言我很喜歡

"Men fear that becoming 'we' will erase his 'I'."

男人畏懼成為「我們」 會使他的「我」消失

You know, his sense of self.

其實就是他的自我感

相反地，女人的自我感是圓融的

Whereas women's sense of self has always been kind of porous.

But our "we" is our saving grace,

我們的「我們」 是我們保有的精神力量

it's what makes us strong.

是讓我們強壯的

It's not that we're better than men,

不是說我們比男人好

we just don't have our masculinity to prove.

我們僅僅是不需要 證明自己的陽剛罷了

LT: And, well --

LT：還有

JF: That's a Gloria Steinem quote.

JF：那是一句來自 Gloria Steinem 的引言

所以我們可以表現我們的人性 LT：我知道 Gloris Steinem 是誰

So we can express our humanity -- LT: I know who Gloria Steinem is.

JF: I know you know who she is, but I think it's a --

JF：我知道妳知道她是誰，但我覺得...

（笑聲）

(Laughter)

No, but it's a great quote, I think.

但我想這是句好引言對吧

We're not better than men, we just don't have our masculinity to prove.

不是說我們比男人好

我們僅僅是不需要 證明自己的陽剛罷了

And that's really important.

這很重要

LT: But men are so inculcated in the culture

LT：但在這文化中男人一直被灌輸

to be comfortable in the patriarchy.

在父權制度下感到舒適

And we've got to make something different happen.

我們必須做出改變

JF: Women's friendships are like a renewable source of power.

JF：女性友誼則像一股 永不止歇的力量來源

LT: Well, that's what's exciting about this subject.

LT：這正是這話題振奮人心之處

It's because our friendships --

因為我們的友誼

female friendships are just a hop to our sisterhood,

女性友誼正是「姊妹淘」的跳板

and sisterhood can be a very powerful force,

而姊妹淘是非常強而有力的

to give the world --

可以讓世界有模有樣

to make it what it should be --

the things that humans desperately need.

給人們迫切需要的東西

PM: It is why we're talking about it,

PM：這正是為何我們談論它

because women's friendships are,

因為女性友誼是

as you said, Jane,

如同妳說的，珍

a renewable source of power.

是永不止歇的力量泉源

那我們該如何使用這股力量呢

So how do we use that power?

JF: Well, women are the fastest growing demographic in the world,

JF：女性是世界是上成長最快的人口

especially older women.

特別是年長女性

And if we harness our power, we can change the world.

如果我們使用這股力量

我們可以改變世界

And guess what? We need to.

而且我們必須如此

(Applause)

（鼓掌）

And we need to do it soon.

我們必須盡快這麼做

And one of the things that we need to do --

其中一件我們該做的事情

我們能以女性身分來達成

and we can do it as women --

for one thing, we kind of set the consumer standards.

是我們似乎設定某種消費標準

We need to consume less.

我們必須消費較少

We in the Western world need to consume less

在西方世界裡，我們必須消費較少

and when we buy things, we need to buy things that are made locally,

當我們買東西時，我們必須買本地貨品

when we buy food, we need to buy food that's grown locally.

當我們買食物時， 必須買當地生產的食物

We are the ones that need to get off the grid.

我們必須不依靠電力公司

We need to make ourselves independent from fossil fuels.

我們必須不依靠化石燃料

And the fossil fuel companies --

而化石燃料公司

the Exxons and the Shell Oils and those bad guys --

Exxon 與 Shell Oils 和那些壞人

cause they are --

他們真的是壞人

are going to tell us that we can't do it without going back to the Stone Age.

會告訴如果不回到石器時代 我們根本辦不到這些

You know, that the alternatives just aren't quite there yet,

替代方案還沒出現

and that's not true.

但那不是事實

There are countries in the world right now

已經有國家主要靠再生能源 而且過得不錯

that are living mostly on renewable energy and doing just fine.

And they tell us that if we do wean ourselves from fossil fuel

而他們說，如果我們捨棄化石燃料

that we're going to be back in the Stone Age,

我們將會回到原始石器時代

and in fact, if we begin to use renewable energy,

事實是如果我們開始使用再生能源

不要在北極採油

and not drill in the Arctic, and not drill --

LT：噢，天哪

LT: Oh, boy.

JF：不要在亞伯特焦油層採油

JF: And not drill in the Alberta tar sands --

Right.

那麼我們將會有

That we will be --

there will be more democracy and more jobs and more well-being,

更多的民主平等、工作與福利

and it's women that are going to lead the way.

而正是女性會領導這條路

LT: Maybe we have the momentum to start a third-wave feminist movement

LT：或許我們有動力 來推行第三波女性主義運動

與我們在全世界的姐妹

with our sisterhood around the world,

with women we don't see, women we may never meet,

與我們見不到、從未謀面的女性

but we join together that way,

我們是這樣團結在一起的

because --

因為亞里士多德曾說

Aristotle said --

most people --

多數人還沒有男性友誼就死去

people would die without male friendships.

這裡特別強調「男性」

And the operative word here was "male."

是因為他們認為友誼是對等的

Because they thought that friendships should be between equals

and women were not considered equal --

而女性不被視為地位平等的

JF: They didn't think we had souls even, the Greeks.

JF：希臘人甚至不認為我們有靈魂呢

LT：沒錯，這告訴我們 亞里士多德是多麼視野狹窄

LT: No, exactly. That shows you just how limited Aristotle was.

(Laughter)

（笑聲）

And wait, no, here's the best part.

等等，這是最棒的部分

It's like, you know, men do need women now.

男生的確需要女生

The planet needs women.

這星球需要女生

The US Constitution needs women.

美國憲法需要女生

We are not even in the Constitution.

我們卻沒有在憲法裡面

JF: You're talking about the Equal Rights Amendment.

JF：妳是在說男女平權修正案吧

LT：沒錯

LT: Right.

金斯伯格大法官曾說過一句話類似

Justice Ginsberg said something like --

every constitution that's been written since the end of World War II

所有在二戰後制定的憲法

included a provision that made women citizens of equal stature,

都包括使女性地位平等的條文

but ours does not.

但我們的沒有

So that would be a good place to start.

所以這是一個很好的出發點

Very, very mild --

非常非常粗淺

JF: Right.

JF：沒錯

(Applause)

（鼓掌）

And gender equality, it's like a tide,

而且啊，性別平等就像水漲船高

it would lift all boats, not just women.

一人得道雞犬升天，不只是女性而已

PM: Needing new role models on how to do that.

PM：我們需要新的模範指示方向

How to be friends,

如何當朋友

how to think about our power in different ways,

如何以不同角度思考我們的力量

as consumers,

消費者的角度

as citizens of the world,

世界公民的角度

and this is what makes Jane and Lily

這也是為何珍和莉莉

是女性如何當朋友的典範

a role model of how women can be friends --

for a very long time,

當長久的朋友

and even if they occasionally disagree.

即使她們有時意見不合

Thank you.

謝謝

Thank you both.

謝謝兩位

(Applause)

（鼓掌）

JF: Thanks.

JF：謝謝

LT: Thank you.

LT：謝謝

JF: Thank you.

JF：謝謝

(Applause)

（鼓掌）