Glenn Greenwald: Why privacy matters

Translator: Judit Piñol (Amara Staff) Reviewer: Katia De Juan Bayona

There is an entire genre of YouTube videos

Existeix un gènere de videos al Youtube

devoted to an experience which

dedicat exclusivament a la experiència que

I am certain that everyone in this room has had.

estic segur que tothom en aquesta sala ha tingut.

It entails an individual who,

Implica a un individu que,

thinking they're alone,

pensant-se que està sol,

engages in some expressive behavior —

es comporta expressivament —

wild singing, gyrating dancing,

cantant esbojarradament, dansant fent voltes,

some mild sexual activity —

activitats sexuals —

only to discover that, in fact, they are not alone,

per llavors descobrir que, de fet, no està sol,

that there is a person watching and lurking,

que hi ha una persona mirant d'amagat,

the discovery of which causes them

i aquest descobriment fa que

to immediately cease what they were doing

aturin immediatament el que feien,

in horror.

aterrats.

The sense of shame and humiliation

La sensació de vergonya i humiliació

in their face is palpable.

a la seva cara és palpable.

It's the sense of,

És el sentit de,

"This is something I'm willing to do

"Això només ho vull fer

only if no one else is watching."

si no hi ha ningú mirant."

This is the crux of the work

Aquest és el punt crucial de la feina

on which I have been singularly focused

en la qual m'he estat concentrant

for the last 16 months,

particularment en els últims 16 mesos,

the question of why privacy matters,

la qüestió de per què la privacitat

a question that has arisen

és important, una questió que ha sorgit

in the context of a global debate,

en el context d'un debat global,

enabled by the revelations of Edward Snowden

activat per les revelacions de l'Ed Snowden

that the United States and its partners,

de que els EUA i els seus socis,

unbeknownst to the entire world,

a esquenes del món sencer,

has converted the Internet,

han convertit l'Internet,

once heralded as an unprecedented tool

abans proclamada una eina

of liberation and democratization,

d'alliberament i democratització sense precedents,

into an unprecedented zone

en una zona de vigilància massiva

of mass, indiscriminate surveillance.

indiscriminada, sense precedents.

There is a very common sentiment

Hi ha un sentiment molt comú

that arises in this debate,

que sorgeix d'aquest debat,

even among people who are uncomfortable

fins i tot entre la gent que no es sent

with mass surveillance, which says

còmode amb la vigilància massiva, que és

that there is no real harm

que no existeix un perill real

that comes from this large-scale invasion

causat per aquesta invasió a gran escala

because only people who are engaged in bad acts

perquè només les persones que fan coses dolentes

have a reason to want to hide

tenen alguna raó per voler amagar-se

and to care about their privacy.

i per preocupar-se de la seva privacitat.

This worldview is implicitly grounded

Aquesta visió del món es basa implícitament

in the proposition that there are two kinds of people in the world,

en veure dos tipus de persones al món,

good people and bad people.

gent bona i gent dolenta.

Bad people are those who plot terrorist attacks

La gent dolenta és aquella que planeja atemptats terroristes

or who engage in violent criminality

o actes criminals violents

and therefore have reasons to want to hide what they're doing,

i que per això tenen raons per voler amagar el que estàn fent,

have reasons to care about their privacy.

per preocupar-se de la seva privacitat.

But by contrast, good people

Per el contrari, la gent bona

are people who go to work,

són gent que va a la feina,

come home, raise their children, watch television.

arriba a casa, educa els seus fills, mira la tele.

They use the Internet not to plot bombing attacks

Fan servir internet no per tramar atacs terroristes

but to read the news or exchange recipes

sinó per llegir les notícies o intercanviar receptes

or to plan their kids' Little League games,

o planejar la Lliga infantil dels seus fills,

and those people are doing nothing wrong

i aquesta gent no fa res de dolent

and therefore have nothing to hide

i llavors no tenen res per amagar

and no reason to fear

ni cap raó per tenir por

the government monitoring them.

a la monitorització del govern.

The people who are actually saying that

La gent que de fet està dient tot això

are engaged in a very extreme act

estan cometent l'acte extrem

of self-deprecation.

d'auto-despreciar-se.

What they're really saying is,

El que realment estan dient és,

"I have agreed to make myself

"He decidit convertir-me

such a harmless and unthreatening

en una persona tant inocua i inofensiva

and uninteresting person that I actually don't fear

i sense cap interès que ja no tinc por

having the government know what it is that I'm doing."

a que el govern sàpiga el que estic fent."

This mindset has found what I think

Aquesta mentalitat va trobar el que

is its purest expression

jo crec és l'expressió més pura

in a 2009 interview with

en una entrevista del 2009 amb

the longtime CEO of Google, Eric Schmidt, who,

el Director Executiu de Google, Eric Schmidt, qui,

when asked about all the different ways his company

quan li van preguntar sobre les diferents maneres

is causing invasions of privacy

en què Google envaeix la privacitat

for hundreds of millions of people around the world,

de centenars de persones arreu del món,

said this: He said,

va dir:

"If you're doing something that you don't want

"Si estàs fent alguna cosa que

other people to know,

no vols que l'altra gent sàpiga,

maybe you shouldn't be doing it in the first place."

potser és que d'entrada no l'hauries d'estar fent."

Now, there's all kinds of things to say about

Ara, hi ha moltes coses a dir sobre

that mentality,

aquesta mentalitat.

the first of which is that the people who say that,

La primera és que la gent que diu això,

who say that privacy isn't really important,

que la privacitat no és realment important,

they don't actually believe it,

ni ells s'ho creuen,

and the way you know that they don't actually believe it

i per veure que ni ells s'ho creuen

is that while they say with their words that privacy doesn't matter,

cal veure que mentre diuen que la privacitat no importa,

with their actions, they take all kinds of steps

amb les seves accions, prenen mesures

to safeguard their privacy.

per salvaguardar la seva privacitat.

They put passwords on their email

Amb contrasenyes al correu electrònic

and their social media accounts,

i a les xarxes socials,

they put locks on their bedroom

llisquets a la seva habitació

and bathroom doors,

i als lavabos,

all steps designed to prevent other people

tots els passos dissenyats per prevenir a l'altra gent

from entering what they consider their private realm

d'entrar al que consideren el seu regne privat

and knowing what it is that they don't want other people to know.

i de saber el que no volen que l'altra gent sàpiga.

The very same Eric Schmidt, the CEO of Google,

Aquest mateix Eric Schmidt, el Director Executiu de Google,

ordered his employees at Google

va ordenar als seus treballadors a Google

to cease speaking with the online

que deixessin de parlar amb la revista

Internet magazine CNET

digital online CNET

after CNET published an article

després que CNET publiqués un article

full of personal, private information

ple d'informació personal i privada

about Eric Schmidt,

de l'Eric Schmidt,

which it obtained exclusively through Google searches

que van obtenir exclusivament a través de buscar al Google

and using other Google products. (Laughter)

i altres productes de Google.

(Rialles)

This same division can be seen

Aquesta mateixa divisió es pot veure

with the CEO of Facebook, Mark Zuckerberg,

amb el Director Executiu de Facebook, Mark Zuckerberg,

who in an infamous interview in 2010

qui en una famosa entrevista del 2010

pronounced that privacy is no longer

va pronunciar que la privacitat ja no és

a "social norm."

una "norma social".

Last year, Mark Zuckerberg and his new wife

L'any passat, Mark Zuckerberg i la seva nova esposa

purchased not only their own house

van comprar no només la seva casa

but also all four adjacent houses in Palo Alto

sinó les altres quatre cases adjacents a Palo Alto

for a total of 30 million dollars

per 30 milions de dòlars

in order to ensure that they enjoyed a zone of privacy

per tal d'assegurar-se que disfrutarien d'una zona de privacitat

that prevented other people from monitoring

perquè ningú pogués controlar

what they do in their personal lives.

el que fan en la seva vida personal.

Over the last 16 months, as I've debated this issue around the world,

Els últims 16 mesos, en debatre aquest tema arreu del món

every single time somebody has said to me,

cada vegada que algú m'ha dit,

"I don't really worry about invasions of privacy

"No em preocupen les invasions de privacitat

because I don't have anything to hide."

no tinc res a amagar."

I always say the same thing to them.

Sempre els dic la mateixa cosa.

I get out a pen, I write down my email address.

Trec un boli, escric la meva adreça electrònica.

I say, "Here's my email address.

I els dic, "El meu e-mail.

What I want you to do when you get home

Quan arribis a casa

is email me the passwords

vull que m'enviïs les contrasenyes

to all of your email accounts,

de totes les teves adreçes d'e-mail,

not just the nice, respectable work one in your name,

no només la respectable que tens amb el teu nom,

but all of them,

sinó de totes,

because I want to be able to just troll through

perquè vull poder escorcollar

what it is you're doing online,

el que fas quan estàs online,

read what I want to read and publish whatever I find interesting.

llegir el que vulgui i publicar el que m'interessi.

After all, if you're not a bad person,

Perquè si no ets mala persona,

if you're doing nothing wrong,

si no fas res mal fet,

you should have nothing to hide."

no hauries de tenir res a amagar."

Not a single person has taken me up on that offer.

Ni una sola persona m'ha acceptat la oferta.

I check and — (Applause)

Jo miro i — (Aplaudiment)

I check that email account religiously all the time.

Jo miro aquest e-mail regularment.

It's a very desolate place.

És un lloc molt desolat.

And there's a reason for that,

I hi ha una raó per això,

which is that we as human beings,

i és que nosaltres com a éssers humans,

even those of us who in words

fins i tot aquells que de paraula

disclaim the importance of our own privacy,

neguen la importància de la nostra privacitat,

instinctively understand

entenem de manera instintiva

the profound importance of it.

la seva profunda importància.

It is true that as human beings, we're social animals,

És cert que com a éssers humans, som animals socials,

which means we have a need for other people

que vol dir que necessitem que l'altra gent

to know what we're doing and saying and thinking,

sàpiga el que estem fent i pensant,

which is why we voluntarily publish information about ourselves online.

i per això publiquem informació nostra online voluntàriament.

But equally essential to what it means

Però igual d'essencial com és el que significa

to be a free and fulfilled human being

ser un ésser humà lliure i realitzat

is to have a place that we can go

ho és tenir un lloc on podem anar

and be free of the judgmental eyes of other people.

i ser lliures dels ulls crítics de l'altra gent.

There's a reason why we seek that out,

Hi ha una raó per què busquem això,

and our reason is that all of us —

i la raó és que tots nosaltres —

not just terrorists and criminals, all of us —

no només els terroristes i criminals, tots nosaltres —

have things to hide.

tenim coses a amagar.

There are all sorts of things that we do and think

Hi ha molts tipus de coses que fem i pensem

that we're willing to tell our physician

que estem disposats a explicar al nostre metge

or our lawyer or our psychologist or our spouse

o al nostre abogat o psicòleg o company

or our best friend that we would be mortified

o al nostre millor amic, però que ens mortificaria

for the rest of the world to learn.

si la resta del món ho sabés.

We make judgments every single day

Cada dia jutgem quines són

about the kinds of things that we say and think and do

les coses que fem i que diem i que estem

that we're willing to have other people know,

disposats a que l'altra gent sàpiga,

and the kinds of things that we say and think and do

i les coses que diem i fem

that we don't want anyone else to know about.

que no volem que ningú se n'assabenti.

People can very easily in words claim

La gent pot fàcilment insistir de paraula

that they don't value their privacy,

que no donen valor a la seva privacitat,

but their actions negate the authenticity of that belief.

però les seves accions neguen l'autenticitat d'aquesta creença.

Now, there's a reason why privacy is so craved

Hi ha una raó per la qual la privacitat és tan ansiada

universally and instinctively.

de manera universal i instintiva.

It isn't just a reflexive movement

No és només un moviment reflex

like breathing air or drinking water.

com respirar o beure aigua.

The reason is that when we're in a state

La raó és que quan estem en un estat

where we can be monitored, where we can be watched,

on podem ser vigilats, on podem ser observats,

our behavior changes dramatically.

el nostre comportament canvia dramàticament.

The range of behavioral options that we consider

El ventall d'opcions de comportament que considerem

when we think we're being watched

quan pensem que estem sent observats

severely reduce.

es redueix severament.

This is just a fact of human nature

Aquest és un fet de la naturalesa humana

that has been recognized in social science

que ha estat reconegut en ciències socials

and in literature and in religion

i en literatura, i en religió,

and in virtually every field of discipline.

i en la majoria de camps de disciplina.

There are dozens of psychological studies

Hi ha dotzenes d'estudis psicològics

that prove that when somebody knows

que proven que quan algú sap

that they might be watched,

que el poden estar observant,

the behavior they engage in

el comportament que presenten

is vastly more conformist and compliant.

és molt més conformista i obedient.

Human shame is a very powerful motivator,

La vergonya humana és un motivador molt poderós,

as is the desire to avoid it,

així com ho és el desitg d'evitar-la,

and that's the reason why people,

i per aquesta raó la gent,

when they're in a state of being watched, make decisions

quan els vigilen, prenen decisions

not that are the byproduct of their own agency

que no vénen d'ells mateixos

but that are about the expectations

sinó de les expectatives

that others have of them

que els altres tenen d'ells

or the mandates of societal orthodoxy.

o els mandats de la ortodòxia social.

This realization was exploited most powerfully

Aquest coneixement va ser explotat de manera més poderosa

for pragmatic ends by the 18th- century philosopher Jeremy Bentham,

amb finalitats pragmàtiques pel filòsof del segle 18 Jeremy Bentham,

who set out to resolve an important problem

qui es va proposar resoldre un problema important

ushered in by the industrial age,

que va sorgir a l'era industrial,

where, for the first time, institutions had become

on, per primera vegada, les institucions

so large and centralized

s'havien fet tan grans i centralitzades

that they were no longer able to monitor

que ja no eren capaces de vigilar

and therefore control each one of their individual members,

i controlar a cada un dels seus membres,

and the solution that he devised

i la solució que va visionar

was an architectural design

va ser un disseny arquitectònic

originally intended to be implemented in prisons

fet originalment per a les presons

that he called the panopticon,

que va anomenar el "panopticon",

the primary attribute of which was the construction

el principal atribut del qual era la construcció

of an enormous tower in the center of the institution

d'una torre enorme al centre de la institució

where whoever controlled the institution

on qui fos que controlés la institució

could at any moment watch any of the inmates,

podia en qualsevol moment observar a qualsevol près,

although they couldn't watch all of them at all times.

tot i que no els podien observar a tots a la vegada.

And crucial to this design

I el punt crucial d'aquest disseny

was that the inmates could not actually

era que els presos no podien

see into the panopticon, into the tower,

veure dins el "panopticon", dins la torre,

and so they never knew

així que mai sabien

if they were being watched or even when.

si eren o quan eren observats.

And what made him so excited about this discovery

I el que el va emocionar tant sobre aquest descobriment

was that that would mean that the prisoners

va ser que volia dir que els presoners

would have to assume that they were being watched

havien d'assumir que eren observats

at any given moment,

en tot moment,

which would be the ultimate enforcer

la manera ideal d'imposar

for obedience and compliance.

l'obediència i la submissió.

The 20th-century French philosopher Michel Foucault

El filòsof francès del segle 20 Michel Foucault

realized that that model could be used

va adonar-se que es podia utilitzar aquest model

not just for prisons but for every institution

no només a les presons sinó a les institucions

that seeks to control human behavior:

que busquin controlar el comportament humà:

schools, hospitals, factories, workplaces.

escoles, hospitals, fàbriques, llocs de treball.

And what he said was that this mindset,

I el que va dir va ser que aquesta mentalitat

this framework discovered by Bentham,

aquesta marc descobert per Bentham,

was the key means of societal control

era l'element clau del control social

for modern, Western societies,

per a societats occidentals modernes,

which no longer need

les quals ja no necessiten

the overt weapons of tyranny —

les armes públiques de la tirania —

punishing or imprisoning or killing dissidents,

castigar o empresonar o matar els dissidents,

or legally compelling loyalty to a particular party —

o legalment obligar a la lleialtat a un determinat partit —

because mass surveillance creates

perquè la vigilància massiva crea

a prison in the mind

una presó a la ment

that is a much more subtle

que és molt més sutil

though much more effective means

tot i ser un mitjà més efectiu

of fostering compliance with social norms

per a fomentar el comformisme amb normes socials

or with social orthodoxy,

o amb ortodòxia social,

much more effective

molt més efectiu

than brute force could ever be.

que amb la força bruta.

The most iconic work of literature about surveillance

Una peça literària icona sobre la vigilància

and privacy is the George Orwell novel "1984,"

i la privacitat és la novel·la "1984" de George Orwell,

which we all learn in school, and therefore it's almost become a cliche.

que tots aprenem a l'escola, convertint-la gairebé en un clixé.

Cada cop que se'n parla en un debat sobre vigilància,

In fact, whenever you bring it up in a debate about surveillance,

people instantaneously dismiss it

la gent la descarta instantàniament

as inapplicable, and what they say is,

com a inaplicable, i el que diuen és,

"Oh, well in '1984,' there were monitors in people's homes,

"OH, però a "1984", hi havia monitors a casa de la gent,

they were being watched at every given moment,

els estaven observant a cada moment,

and that has nothing to do with the surveillance state that we face."

i això no té res a veure amb l'estat de vigilància que tenim al davant."

That is an actual fundamental misapprehension

Aquest és un malentès fundamental

of the warnings that Orwell issued in "1984."

dels advertiments que Orwell va promulgar a "1984".

The warning that he was issuing

L'avís que estava publicant

was about a surveillance state

era sobre un estat de vigilància

not that monitored everybody at all times,

no que vigilava a tothom en tot moment

but where people were aware that they could

sinó on la gent eren conscients que podien

be monitored at any given moment.

ser vigilats en qualsevol moment.

Here is how Orwell's narrator, Winston Smith,

Així és com el narrador d'Orwell, Winston Smith,

described the surveillance system

descrivia el sistema de vigilància

that they faced:

al que s'encaraven:

"There was, of course, no way of knowing

"No hi havia manera, és clar, de saber

whether you were being watched at any given moment."

si t'observaven en cap moment."

He went on to say,

I després diu,

"At any rate, they could plug in your wire

"Podien connectar-se al teu cable

whenever they wanted to.

quan volguéssin.

You had to live, did live,

Havies de viure, vivies,

from habit that became instinct,

de l'hàbit que es tornà instint,

in the assumption that every sound you made

assumint que cada so que feies

was overheard and except in darkness

era escoltat i excepte en la foscor

every movement scrutinized."

cada moviment investigat."

The Abrahamic religions similarly posit

Les religions abrahàmiques proposen de manera similar

that there's an invisible, all-knowing authority

que hi ha una autoritat invisible, que ho sap tot

who, because of its omniscience,

qui, com que és omniscient,

always watches whatever you're doing,

sempre observa tot el que fas,

which means you never have a private moment,

el que vol dir que mai tens un moment privat,

the ultimate enforcer

el mètode definitiu

for obedience to its dictates.

per a la obediència dels seus preceptes.

What all of these seemingly disparate works

El que totes aquestes exemples reconeixen

recognize, the conclusion that they all reach,

la conclusió a la que tots arriben,

is that a society in which people

és que una societat on la gent

can be monitored at all times

pot ser vigilada en tot moment

is a society that breeds conformity

és una societat que cria comformitat,

and obedience and submission,

i obediència i submissió,

which is why every tyrant,

i és per això que cada tirà,

the most overt to the most subtle,

tan el més sutil com el més públic,

craves that system.

ansia aquest sistema.

Conversely, even more importantly,

De manera inversa, i encara més important,

it is a realm of privacy,

és un regne de privacitat,

the ability to go somewhere where we can think

l'abilitat d'anar a on podem pensar,

and reason and interact and speak

i raonar, i interactuar, i parlar

without the judgmental eyes of others being cast upon us,

sense els ulls crítics dels altres sobre nostre,

in which creativity and exploration

on la creativitat i l'exploració

and dissent exclusively reside,

i la disconformitat residedeixen exclusivament,

and that is the reason why,

i aquesta és la raó per la qual,

when we allow a society to exist

quan permetem que una societat existeixi

in which we're subject to constant monitoring,

en la qual ens vigilen constantment,

we allow the essence of human freedom

estem permetent que l'essència de la llibertat humana

to be severely crippled.

quedi severament esguerrada.

The last point I want to observe about this mindset,

L'últim punt que vull observar sobre aquest tipus de mentalitat,

the idea that only people who are doing something wrong

la idea de que només qui fa res de dolent

have things to hide and therefore reasons to care about privacy,

té coses a amagar i per tant raons per preocupar-se de la privacitat,

is that it entrenches two very destructive messages,

és que arrela dos missatges molt destructius,

two destructive lessons,

dues lliçons destructives.

the first of which is that

La primera és que

the only people who care about privacy,

els únics que es preocupen per la privacitat,

the only people who will seek out privacy,

els únics que buscaràn privacitat

are by definition bad people.

són per definició mala gent.

This is a conclusion that we should have

Hauríem de tenir moltes raons per evitar

all kinds of reasons for avoiding,

aquesta conclusió,

the most important of which is that when you say,

la més important és que quan dius,

"somebody who is doing bad things,"

"algú que està fent coses dolentes,"

you probably mean things like plotting a terrorist attack

penses probablement en planejar un atac terrorista

or engaging in violent criminality,

o actuar d'una manera criminal i violenta,

a much narrower conception

una concepció molt més reduïda

of what people who wield power mean

de la que la gent que exerceix poder vol dir

when they say, "doing bad things."

quan diuen "fent coses dolentes."

Per a ells, "fent coses dolentes" normalment vol dir

For them, "doing bad things" typically means

doing something that poses meaningful challenges

fer alguna cosa que representa reptes significatius

to the exercise of our own power.

a l'exercici del nostre propi poder.

The other really destructive

L'altre lliçó destructiva

and, I think, even more insidious lesson

i, jo crec, encara més insidiosa

that comes from accepting this mindset

que resulta d'acceptar aquesta mentalitat

is there's an implicit bargain

és que hi ha una ganga implícita

that people who accept this mindset have accepted,

que la gent que accepta aquesta mentalitat ha acceptat,

and that bargain is this:

i la ganga és aquesta:

If you're willing to render yourself

Si estàs disposat a tornar-te

sufficiently harmless,

suficientment inofensiu,

sufficiently unthreatening

suficientment poc amenaçador

to those who wield political power,

a aquells que exerceixen poder polític,

then and only then can you be free

llavors i només llavors pots ser lliure

of the dangers of surveillance.

dels perills de la vigilància.

It's only those who are dissidents,

És només aquells que són dissidents,

who challenge power,

els que desafien el poder,

who have something to worry about.

els qui s'han de preocupar.

There are all kinds of reasons why we should want to avoid that lesson as well.

Hi ha moltes raons perquè calgui evitar també aquesta lliçó.

You may be a person who, right now,

Pot ser que siguis algú qui, ara mateix,

doesn't want to engage in that behavior,

no vol involucrar-se en aquest comportament,

but at some point in the future you might.

però en algun moment futur potser ho faràs.

Even if you're somebody who decides

Fins i tot si ets algú que decideix

that you never want to,

que mai vols involucrar-t'hi,

the fact that there are other people

el fet de que hi ha altra gent

who are willing to and able to resist

que està disposada i és capaç de resistir

and be adversarial to those in power —

i de ser un adversari del poder —

dissidents and journalists

dissidents i periodistes

and activists and a whole range of others —

i activistes i molts altres —

is something that brings us all collective good

és una cosa que ens aporta un bé col·lectiu

that we should want to preserve.

que hauríem de voler preservar.

Equally critical is that the measure

Igualment crític és que la mesura

of how free a society is

de quanta llibertat té una societat

is not how it treats its good,

no és com tracta als seus ciutadans bons

obedient, compliant citizens,

obedients, i complidors,

but how it treats its dissidents

sinó com tracta als dissidents

and those who resist orthodoxy.

i aquells qui resisteixen la ortodòxia.

But the most important reason

Però la raó més important

is that a system of mass surveillance

és que un sistema de vigilància en massa

suppresses our own freedom in all sorts of ways.

suprimeix la nostra llibertat de moltes maneres.

It renders off-limits

Col·loca en una zona prohibida

all kinds of behavioral choices

a molts tipus de comportaments

without our even knowing that it's happened.

sense que ens adonem que això passa.

The renowned socialist activist Rosa Luxemburg

La renombrada activista social Rosa Luxemburg

once said, "He who does not move

va dir una vegada, "Ell qui no es mou

does not notice his chains."

no s'adona de les seves cadenes."

We can try and render the chains

Podem provar i deixar les cadenes

of mass surveillance invisible or undetectable,

de la vigilància en massa invisible o indetectable,

but the constraints that it imposes on us

però les limitacions que ens imposa

do not become any less potent.

no esdevenen menys potents.

Thank you very much.

Moltíssimes gràcies.

(Applause)

(Aplaudiments)

Thank you.

Gràcies.

(Applause)

(Aplaudiments)

Thank you.

Gràcies.

(Applause)

(Aplaudiments)

Bruno Giussani: Glenn, thank you.

Bruno Giussani: Glenn, moltes gràcies.

The case is rather convincing, I have to say,

El cas és ben convincent, ho he d'admetre,

but I want to bring you back

però et vull retornar

to the last 16 months and to Edward Snowden

als últims 16 mesos i a l'Edward Snowden

for a few questions, if you don't mind.

per fer algunes preguntes, si no et fa res.

The first one is personal to you.

La primera és una de personal.

We have all read about the arrest of your partner,

Tots hem llegit sobre la detenció del teu company,

David Miranda in London, and other difficulties,

David Miranda a Londres, i altres dificultats,

but I assume that

però suposo que

in terms of personal engagement and risk,

parlant de compromisos i riscs personals,

la pressió que tens a sobre no es fàcil

that the pressure on you is not that easy

to take on the biggest sovereign organizations in the world.

enfrontar-se a les organitzacions més grans del món.

Tell us a little bit about that.

Parla'ns una mica sobre això.

Glenn Greenwald: You know, I think one of the things that happens

Glenn Greenwald: Una de les coses que passen

is that people's courage in this regard

és que el coratge respecte a aquest tema

gets contagious,

es contagia,

and so although I and the other journalists with whom I was working

i encara que jo i els altres periodistes amb els que estava treballant

were certainly aware of the risk —

estàvem al corrent del risc —

the United States continues to be the most powerful country in the world

Estats Units continua sent el país més poderós del món

and doesn't appreciate it when you

i no els agrada quan

disclose thousands of their secrets

desveles milers dels seus secrets

on the Internet at will —

a internet per a tothom —

seeing somebody who is a 29-year-old

veure algú que té 29 anys

ordinary person who grew up in

i és una persona corrent que va créixer

a very ordinary environment

en un entorn molt corrent

exercise the degree of principled courage that Edward Snowden risked,

fer ús de tal coratge exemplar al qual l'Edward Snowden es va arriscar,

knowing that he was going to go to prison for the rest of his life

sabent que aniria a la presó la resta de la seva vida

or that his life would unravel,

o que li destrossarien la vida,

inspired me and inspired other journalists

em va inspirar a mi i a altres periodistes

and inspired, I think, people around the world,

i va inspirar a d'altres d'arreu del món,

including future whistleblowers,

incloent-t'hi a futurs delators,

to realize that they can engage in that kind of behavior as well.

per entendre que també poden mostrar aquest tipus de comportament.

BG: I'm curious about your relationship with Ed Snowden,

BG: Tinc curiositat per la relació amb l'Ed Snowden,

because you have spoken with him a lot,

perquè has parlat molt amb ell,

and you certainly continue doing so,

i encara ho fas,

but in your book, you never call him Edward,

però en el teu llibre, mai l'anomenes Edward,

nor Ed, you say "Snowden." How come?

ni Ed, sinó "Snowden." Com és?

GG: You know, I'm sure that's something

GG: Bé, segur que això

for a team of psychologists to examine. (Laughter)

ho hauria d'examinar un equip de psicòlegs. (Rialles)

I don't really know. The reason I think that,

No ho sé. La raó crec és

one of the important objectives that he actually had,

un dels objectius importants que tenia,

one of his, I think, most important tactics,

una de les seves tàctiques més importants,

was that he knew that one of the ways

va ser que sabia que una de les maneres

to distract attention from the substance of the revelations

de distraure atenció del contingut de les revelacions

would be to try and personalize the focus on him,

seria intentar personalitzar l'atenció cap a ell,

and for that reason, he stayed out of the media.

per això, va mantenir-se fora dels mitjans.

He tried not to ever have his personal life

Va intentar no mai no examinessin

subject to examination,

la seva vida personal,

and so I think calling him Snowden

i crec que anomenar-lo Snowden

is a way of just identifying him as this important historical actor

és una manera d'identificar-lo com a actor històric important

rather than trying to personalize him in a way

en comptes d'intentar personalitzar-lo

that might distract attention from the substance.

per distreure atenció del contingut.

M: Les revelacions, el teu anàlisi,

Moderator: So his revelations, your analysis,

the work of other journalists,

la feina d'altres periodistes,

have really developed the debate,

han realment obert el debat,

and many governments, for example, have reacted,

i molts governs, per exemple, han reaccionat,

including in Brazil, with projects and programs

incloent el Brazil, amb projectes i programes

to reshape a little bit the design of the Internet, etc.

per reformar una mica el disseny de l'internet, etc.

There are a lot of things going on in that sense.

Estan passant moltes coses en aquest respecte.

But I'm wondering, for you personally,

Però em pregunto, per a tu personalment,

what is the endgame?

quin és l'objectiu final?

At what point will you think,

A quin punt pensaràs,

well, actually, we've succeeded in moving the dial?

que has aconseguit canviar les coses?

GG: Well, I mean, the endgame for me as a journalist

GG: Bé, l'objectiu final com a periodista

is very simple, which is to make sure

és molt simple, és assegurar-me

that every single document that's newsworthy

que cada document que hauria de ser a les notícies

and that ought to be disclosed

i que s'hauria de revelar

ends up being disclosed,

acabi sent revelat,

and that secrets that should never have been kept in the first place

que els secrets que no s'haurien de guardar

end up uncovered.

es descobreixin.

To me, that's the essence of journalism

Per a mi, és l'essència del periodisme

and that's what I'm committed to doing.

i això és al que em compromento.

As somebody who finds mass surveillance odious

Trobo que la vigilància en massa és odiosa

for all the reasons I just talked about and a lot more,

per les raons que he mencionat i moltes més,

I mean, I look at this as work that will never end

i miro aquesta feina que mai s'acabarà

until governments around the world

fins que els governs d'arreu del món

are no longer able to subject entire populations

ja no siguin capaços de sotmetre a tota la població

to monitoring and surveillance

al control i la vigilància

unless they convince some court or some entity

a no ser que convencin a un jutge o a alguna entitat

that the person they've targeted

que la persona que han triat

has actually done something wrong.

ha fet alguna cosa dolenta de debò.

To me, that's the way that privacy can be rejuvenated.

Per a mi, aquesta és la manera com la privacitat es pot rejuvenir.

BG: So Snowden is very, as we've seen at TED,

BG: Snowden, com hem vist a TED,

is very articulate in presenting and portraying himself

es presenta i s'identifica molt bé

as a defender of democratic values

com a defensor dels valors democràtics

and democratic principles.

i dels principis democràtics.

But then, many people really find it difficult to believe

Però, a molta gent li costa de creure

that those are his only motivations.

que aquestes siguin les seves úniques motivacions.

They find it difficult to believe

Els costa creure

that there was no money involved,

que no hi hagi diners pel mig,

that he didn't sell some of those secrets,

que no va vendre alguns secrets,

even to China and to Russia,

a la Xina o a Rússia,

which are clearly not the best friends

que clarament no són els millors amics

of the United States right now.

dels Estats Units ara mateix.

And I'm sure many people in the room

I estic segur que molta gent aquí

are wondering the same question.

s'estàn fent la mateixa pregunta.

Do you consider it possible there is

Consideres que és possible que hi hagi

that part of Snowden we've not seen yet?

una part de Snowden que encara no hem vist?

GG: No, I consider that absurd and idiotic.

GG: No, considero que això és absurd i idiotic.

(Laughter) If you wanted to,

(Rialles) Si volguessis,

and I know you're just playing devil's advocate,

i ja sé que fas simplement d'advocat del diable,

but if you wanted to sell

però si volguessis vendre

secrets to another country,

secrets a un altre país,

which he could have done and become

cosa que ell hagués pogut fer

extremely rich doing so,

i fer-se molt ric fent-ho,

the last thing you would do is take those secrets

la última cosa que faries és emportar-te'ls

and give them to journalists and ask journalists to publish them,

i donar-los als periodistes perquè els publiquessin,

because it makes those secrets worthless.

perquè fa que els secrets no valguin res.

People who want to enrich themselves

La gent que es vol enriquir

do it secretly by selling secrets to the government,

ho fa en secret venent secrets al govern,

but I think there's one important point worth making,

crec que cal puntualitzar una cosa,

which is, that accusation comes from

que és que l'acusació ve de

people in the U.S. government,

persones del govern dels Estats Units,

from people in the media who are loyalists

de gent dels mitjans que són lleials

to these various governments,

a aquests governs varis,

and I think a lot of times when people make accusations like that about other people —

i crec que quan la gent acusa així als altres —

"Oh, he can't really be doing this

"No pot estar fent això

for principled reasons,

per raons de principis,

he must have some corrupt, nefarious reason" —

ha de tenir alguna raó corrupta i malvada" —

they're saying a lot more about themselves

diu més sobre ells mateixos

than they are the target of their accusations,

que sobre el qui acusen,

because — (Applause) —

perquè — (Aplaudiments) —

those people, the ones who make that accusation,

aquella gent, els qui fan aquesta acusació,

they themselves never act

ells mateixos no actuen mai

for any reason other than corrupt reasons,

per cap raó que no sigui corrupta,

so they assume

així que assumeixen

that everybody else is plagued by the same disease

que tothom té la mateixa malaltia

of soullessness as they are,

de falta d'ànima com ells,

and so that's the assumption.

i aquesta és la suposició.

(Applause)

(Aplaudiments)

BG: Glenn, thank you very much. GG: Thank you very much.

BG: Glenn, moltes gràcies. GG: Moltes gràcies.

BG: Glenn Greenwald.

BG: Glenn Greenwald.

(Applause)

(Aplaudiments)