Glenn Greenwald: Why privacy matters

Prevoditelj: Ivana Kordic Recezent: Ivan Stamenković

There is an entire genre of YouTube videos

Postoji cijeli žanr YouTube videa

devoted to an experience which

posvećenih iskustvu za koje sam siguran

I am certain that everyone in this room has had.

da su ga doživjeli svi u ovoj sobi.

It entails an individual who,

Ono podrazumijeva pojedince koji se,

thinking they're alone,

smatrajući da su sami,

engages in some expressive behavior —

upuštaju u određeno ekspresivno ponašanje —

wild singing, gyrating dancing,

divlje pjevanje, zvrkasto plesanje,

some mild sexual activity —

neku blagu seksualnu aktivnost —

only to discover that, in fact, they are not alone,

tek da bi otkrili da, zapravo, nisu sami,

that there is a person watching and lurking,

da postoji osoba koja ih promatra i uhodi,

the discovery of which causes them

otkriće čega uzrokuje da

to immediately cease what they were doing

istog trenutka prestanu s time što su radili

in horror.

u užasu.

The sense of shame and humiliation

Osjećaj srama i poniženja

in their face is palpable.

na njihovom licu opipljiv je.

It's the sense of,

To je osjećaj koji kaže

"This is something I'm willing to do

''Ovo sam spreman napraviti

only if no one else is watching."

samo ako nitko drugi ne gleda.''

This is the crux of the work

Ovo je srž posla

on which I have been singularly focused

kojemu sam bio isključivo posvećen

for the last 16 months,

tijekom posljednjih 16 mjeseci,

the question of why privacy matters,

pitanju zašto je privatnost bitna,

a question that has arisen

pitanju koje je postavljeno

in the context of a global debate,

u kontekstu globalne debate

enabled by the revelations of Edward Snowden

omogućene otkrićima Edwarda Snowdena

that the United States and its partners,

da su SAD i njihovi partneri,

unbeknownst to the entire world,

skrivajući to od cijeloga svijeta,

has converted the Internet,

pretvorile Internet,

once heralded as an unprecedented tool

nekoć slavljen kao oruđe bez presedana

of liberation and democratization,

za oslobođenje i demokratizaciju,

into an unprecedented zone

u područje masovnog

of mass, indiscriminate surveillance.

neselektivnog nadzora, bez presedana.

There is a very common sentiment

Postoji vrlo učestao dojam

that arises in this debate,

koji se pojavi u toj debati,

even among people who are uncomfortable

čak i među ljudima koji osjećaju neugodu

with mass surveillance, which says

radi masovnog nadzora, a koji kaže

that there is no real harm

da zapravo nema neke stvarne štete koja

that comes from this large-scale invasion

proizlazi iz te invazije širokih razmjera

because only people who are engaged in bad acts

jer jedino ljudi uključeni u loše radnje

have a reason to want to hide

imaju razloga da se žele sakriti

and to care about their privacy.

i brinu o svojoj privatnosti.

This worldview is implicitly grounded

Taj pogled na svijet prešutno je utemeljen

in the proposition that there are two kinds of people in the world,

u pretpostavci da postoje dvije vrste ljudi na svijetu,

good people and bad people.

dobri ljudi i loši ljudi.

Bad people are those who plot terrorist attacks

Loši su ljudi oni koji planiraju terorističke napade

or who engage in violent criminality

ili su uključeni u nasilna kaznena djela

and therefore have reasons to want to hide what they're doing,

i stoga imaju razloge zašto žele sakriti što rade,

have reasons to care about their privacy.

razloge zašto brinu o svojoj privatnosti.

But by contrast, good people

Suprotno tome, dobri ljudi

are people who go to work,

oni su koji idu na posao,

come home, raise their children, watch television.

dolaze doma, odgajaju svoju djecu, gledaju televiziju.

They use the Internet not to plot bombing attacks

Oni koriste Internet ne da bi planirali bombaške napade

but to read the news or exchange recipes

već za čitanje vijesti i razmjenu recepata

or to plan their kids' Little League games,

ili kako bi planirali utakmice svoje djece,

and those people are doing nothing wrong

i ti ljudi ne rade ništa krivo

and therefore have nothing to hide

te stoga nemaju ništa za sakriti

and no reason to fear

ni razloge za strah

the government monitoring them.

od vladinog nadzora.

The people who are actually saying that

Ljudi koji uistinu tako govore

are engaged in a very extreme act

podliježu vrlo ekstremnom obliku

of self-deprecation.

samo-podcjenjivanja.

What they're really saying is,

Ono što zapravo govore jest,

"I have agreed to make myself

''Pristao sam učiniti se

such a harmless and unthreatening

toliko bezopasnom i neprijetećom

and uninteresting person that I actually don't fear

i nezanimljivom osobom da se doista ne bojim

having the government know what it is that I'm doing."

da vlada zna što sve radim.''+

This mindset has found what I think

Ovaj mentalni sklop je pronašao što smatram

is its purest expression

njegovim najčišćim izričajem

in a 2009 interview with

u intervjuu iz 2009 godine

the longtime CEO of Google, Eric Schmidt, who,

s čelnikom Googla, Ericom Schmidtom, koji je,

when asked about all the different ways his company

kada su ga pitali o različitim načinima kako njegova tvrtka

is causing invasions of privacy

uzrokuje invazije u privatnost

for hundreds of millions of people around the world,

stotina milijuna ljudi diljem svijeta,

said this: He said,

rekao sljedeće. Rekao je

"If you're doing something that you don't want

''Ako radite nešto za što ne želite

other people to know,

da drugi ljudi znaju,

maybe you shouldn't be doing it in the first place."

možda to ni ne biste trebali raditi.''

Now, there's all kinds of things to say about

Sad, može se svašta reći o

that mentality,

takvom mentalitetu,

the first of which is that the people who say that,

prvo to da ljudi koji kažu

who say that privacy isn't really important,

da privatnost nije jako važna,

they don't actually believe it,

u to zapravo ne vjeruju,

and the way you know that they don't actually believe it

a možete znati da u to ne vjeruju

is that while they say with their words that privacy doesn't matter,

zato što iako to govore svojim riječima,

with their actions, they take all kinds of steps

njihova djela govore o različitim koracima

to safeguard their privacy.

koje poduzimaju da zaštite privatnost.

They put passwords on their email

Postavljaju lozinke na svoje e-mailove

and their social media accounts,

i račune na društvenim mrežama,

they put locks on their bedroom

postavljaju lokote na vrata

and bathroom doors,

spavaćih soba i kupaonica

all steps designed to prevent other people

a sve je to usmjereno na spriječavanje drugih ljudi

from entering what they consider their private realm

od ulaska u prostor kojeg smatraju svojim,

and knowing what it is that they don't want other people to know.

znajući pritom što ne žele otkriti drugima.

The very same Eric Schmidt, the CEO of Google,

Isti taj Eric Schmidt, čelnik Googla,

ordered his employees at Google

naredio je svojim zaposlenicima u Googlu

to cease speaking with the online

da prestanu razgovarati s online

Internet magazine CNET

Internetskim časopisom CNET

after CNET published an article

nakon što je CNET objavio članak

full of personal, private information

pun osobnih, privatnih podataka

about Eric Schmidt,

o Ericu Schmidtu,

which it obtained exclusively through Google searches

koje je dobio isključivo pretražujući kroz Google

and using other Google products. (Laughter)

i koristeći ostale Googlove proizvode. (Smijeh)

This same division can be seen

Ista ova podjela vidljiva je

with the CEO of Facebook, Mark Zuckerberg,

kod Marka Zuckerberga,

who in an infamous interview in 2010

koji je u zloglasnom intervjuu iz 2010.

pronounced that privacy is no longer

izrekao da privatnost više ne predstavlja

a "social norm."

''društvenu normu''.

Last year, Mark Zuckerberg and his new wife

Prošle su godine Mark i njegova nova žena

purchased not only their own house

kupili ne samo vlastitu kuću

but also all four adjacent houses in Palo Alto

već i sve četiri obližnje kuće u Palo Altu

for a total of 30 million dollars

za ukupno 30 milijuna dolara

in order to ensure that they enjoyed a zone of privacy

kako bi osigurali uživanje u zoni privatnosti

that prevented other people from monitoring

koja je onemogućila druge ljude da promatraju

what they do in their personal lives.

što oni rade u svojim osobnim životima.

Over the last 16 months, as I've debated this issue around the world,

Zadnjih 16 mjeseci, u debatama o ovoj temi diljem svijeta,

every single time somebody has said to me,

baš svaki puta kada bi mi netko rekao,

"I don't really worry about invasions of privacy

''Ne brinem se zapravo o narušavanju privatnosti

because I don't have anything to hide."

jer nemam ništa za sakriti.''

I always say the same thing to them.

ja bih im rekao istu stvar.

I get out a pen, I write down my email address.

Izvadio bih olovku, napisao svoju e-mail adresu.

I say, "Here's my email address.

Rekao bih, ''Evo moje e-mail adrese.''

What I want you to do when you get home

Želim da mi, kada dođeš doma,

is email me the passwords

pošalješ e-mailom lozinke

to all of your email accounts,

svih tvojih e-mail računa,

not just the nice, respectable work one in your name,

ne samo lijepog, poštovanja vrijednog poslovnog e-maila

but all of them,

već svih njih,

because I want to be able to just troll through

jer želim tek baciti pogled na

what it is you're doing online,

to što radiš online,

read what I want to read and publish whatever I find interesting.

pročitati što želim pročitati i objaviti ono što nađem zanimljivim.

After all, if you're not a bad person,

Na kraju krajeva, ako nisi loša osoba

if you're doing nothing wrong,

i ako ne radiš ništa krivo

you should have nothing to hide."

ne bi trebao imati što za sakriti.''

Not a single person has taken me up on that offer.

Niti jedna jedina osoba nije mi odgovorila na ponudu.

I check and — (Applause)

Provjerim i — (Pljesak)

I check that email account religiously all the time.

provjerim opet taj račun, religiozno, svako malo.

It's a very desolate place.

To vam je jedno prilično osamljeno mjesto.

And there's a reason for that,

I postoji razlog zašto je tome tako,

which is that we as human beings,

a taj je da mi kao ljudska bića,

even those of us who in words

čak i oni od nas koji riječima

disclaim the importance of our own privacy,

osporavaju važnost vlastite privatnosti

instinctively understand

instinktivno razumijemo

the profound importance of it.

njezinu duboku važnost.

It is true that as human beings, we're social animals,

Istina je da smo, kao ljudska bića, društvene životinje,

which means we have a need for other people

što znači da imamo potrebu da drugi ljudi

to know what we're doing and saying and thinking,

znaju što radimo, govorimo i mislimo

which is why we voluntarily publish information about ourselves online.

i iz tog razloga dobrovoljno objavljujemo podatke o sebi online.

But equally essential to what it means

No jednako je važno, da bismo

to be a free and fulfilled human being

bili slobodna i ispunjena ljudska bića,

is to have a place that we can go

imati mjesto gdje možemo otići i

and be free of the judgmental eyes of other people.

biti slobodni od prosuđujućih pogleda ljudi.

There's a reason why we seek that out,

Postoji razlog zašto to tražimo

and our reason is that all of us —

i taj je da svi mi —

not just terrorists and criminals, all of us —

ne samo teroristi i kriminalci, svi mi —

have things to hide.

imamo stvari koje želimo sakriti.

There are all sorts of things that we do and think

Postoje najrazličitije stvari koje radimo i o kojima razmišljamo,

that we're willing to tell our physician

koje smo spremni reći svojem liječniku

or our lawyer or our psychologist or our spouse

ili svojem odvjetniku ili psihologu ili supružniku

or our best friend that we would be mortified

ili najboljem prijatelju no koje bi nas zatravnile

for the rest of the world to learn.

da ih sazna ostatak svijeta.

We make judgments every single day

Baš svakoga dana donosimo odluke o

about the kinds of things that we say and think and do

stvarima koje kažemo, mislimo i napravimo

that we're willing to have other people know,

koje smo spremni otkriti drugima, i

and the kinds of things that we say and think and do

o onima koje kažemo, mislimo i napravimo

that we don't want anyone else to know about.

i ne želimo da itko drugi za njih sazna.

People can very easily in words claim

Ljudi će vrlo lako ustvrditi

that they don't value their privacy,

da ne vrednuju svoju privatnost,

but their actions negate the authenticity of that belief.

no njihova djela poriču autentičnost tog uvjerenja.

Now, there's a reason why privacy is so craved

Postoji razlog zašto je privatnost žuđena

universally and instinctively.

toliko univerzalno i instinktivno.

It isn't just a reflexive movement

Nije to samo refleksivan pokret

like breathing air or drinking water.

poput udisanja zraka ili ispijanja vode.

The reason is that when we're in a state

Razlog je taj da u stanju

where we can be monitored, where we can be watched,

u kojem nas se može pratiti, u kojem nas se može promatrati,

our behavior changes dramatically.

mijenjamo svoje ponašanje drastično.

The range of behavioral options that we consider

Raspon načina ponašanja koje primjenjujemo

when we think we're being watched

kada mislimo da smo promatrani

severely reduce.

ozbiljno se smanjuje.

This is just a fact of human nature

Ovo je tek činjenica o ljudskoj prirodi

that has been recognized in social science

koja je priznata u društvenim znanostima

and in literature and in religion

i u literaturi i u religiji

and in virtually every field of discipline.

i doslovce u svakom području.

There are dozens of psychological studies

Postoje brojne psihološke studije

that prove that when somebody knows

koje dokazuju da kada netko zna

that they might be watched,

da bi mogao biti promatran

the behavior they engage in

njegovo ponašanje postaje

is vastly more conformist and compliant.

znatno više prilagođeno i poslušno.

Human shame is a very powerful motivator,

Ljudski sram je moćan motivator,

as is the desire to avoid it,

kao i želja da ga se izbjegne,

and that's the reason why people,

što je razlog zašto ljudi,

when they're in a state of being watched, make decisions

kada su promatrani donose odluke

not that are the byproduct of their own agency

koje nisu rezultat njihovog djelovanja

but that are about the expectations

već odraz očekivanja koje

that others have of them

drugi imaju od njih

or the mandates of societal orthodoxy.

ili naloga društvenog pravovjerja.

This realization was exploited most powerfully

Ovu je spoznaju najmoćnije iskoristio

for pragmatic ends by the 18th- century philosopher Jeremy Bentham,

u pragmatičke svrhe krajem 18. stoljeća filozof Jeremy Bentham

who set out to resolve an important problem

koji si je postavio za zadaću riješiti važan problem

ushered in by the industrial age,

nadošao s industrijskim dobom

where, for the first time, institutions had become

u kojemu su, po prvi puta, institucije postale

so large and centralized

tako velike i centralizirane

that they were no longer able to monitor

da više nisu bile u stanju pratiti i

and therefore control each one of their individual members,

kontrolirati svakog svojeg pojedinog člana

and the solution that he devised

i rješenje do kojega je došao

was an architectural design

bio je arhitektonski dizajn

originally intended to be implemented in prisons

originalno zamišljen za zatvore,

that he called the panopticon,

kojega je on nazvao panoptikon,

the primary attribute of which was the construction

a primarna mu je odlika bila konstrukcija

of an enormous tower in the center of the institution

ogromnog tornja posred institucije

where whoever controlled the institution

kojim je tkogod bi kontrolirao instituciju

could at any moment watch any of the inmates,

mogao u svakom trenutku promatrati svakog zatvorenika

although they couldn't watch all of them at all times.

iako ih nije mogao promatrati sve u svakome trenutku.

And crucial to this design

Ključna odlika tog dizajna

was that the inmates could not actually

bila je da zatvorenici nisu mogli

see into the panopticon, into the tower,

vidjeti u panopticon, u toranj,

and so they never knew

tako da nikada nisu znali

if they were being watched or even when.

gleda li ih se ili kada.

And what made him so excited about this discovery

Ono radi čega ga je uzbudilo to otkiće

was that that would mean that the prisoners

bilo je to da su zatvorenici

would have to assume that they were being watched

morali pretpostaviti da jesu promatrani

at any given moment,

u bilo kojem trenutku,

which would be the ultimate enforcer

što bi postalo najvažnije za postizanje

for obedience and compliance.

poslušnosti i poštivanja pravila.

The 20th-century French philosopher Michel Foucault

Francuski filozof 20. stoljeća Michel Foucault

realized that that model could be used

shvatio je da je taj model primjenjiv

not just for prisons but for every institution

ne tek u zatvorima

that seeks to control human behavior:

već u svakoj ustanovi koja želi kontrolirati ljudsko ponašanje:

schools, hospitals, factories, workplaces.

u školama, bolnicama, tvornicama, na radnim mjestima.

And what he said was that this mindset,

Rekao je da taj način razmišljanja,

this framework discovered by Bentham,

taj okvir kojeg je otkrio Bentham,

was the key means of societal control

predstavlja ključan način društvene kontrole

for modern, Western societies,

u modernim društvima Zapada

which no longer need

koja više nisu trebala

the overt weapons of tyranny —

otvorena oružja tiranije —

punishing or imprisoning or killing dissidents,

kažnjavanje ili zatvaranje ili ubijanje disidenata,

or legally compelling loyalty to a particular party —

ili pravno obvezivanje na odanost određenoj stranci —

because mass surveillance creates

jer je masovni nadzor stvorio

a prison in the mind

zatvor u umu,

that is a much more subtle

daleko suptilniji

though much more effective means

ali daleko učinkovitiji način

of fostering compliance with social norms

ostvarivanja usklađenosti s društvenim normama

or with social orthodoxy,

ili društvenim pravovjerjem,

much more effective

daleko učinkovitiji

than brute force could ever be.

no što bi gola sila ikada mogla biti.

The most iconic work of literature about surveillance

Najznačajnije književno djelo o nadzoru

and privacy is the George Orwell novel "1984,"

i privatnosti je roman Georgea Orwella ''1984'',

which we all learn in school, and therefore it's almost become a cliche.

o kojem svi učimo u školi te je gotovo postao kliše.

In fact, whenever you bring it up in a debate about surveillance,

Zapravo, kada god ga spomenete u debati o nadzoru,

people instantaneously dismiss it

ljudi ga istog trenutka odbace

as inapplicable, and what they say is,

kao neprimjenjivog, i kažu,

"Oh, well in '1984,' there were monitors in people's homes,

''Oh, pa u '1984-toj' ljudi su imali monitore u kućama,

they were being watched at every given moment,

bili su promatrani u kojem god trenutku,

and that has nothing to do with the surveillance state that we face."

i to nema nikakve veze s nadzirućom državom s kojom se mi susrećemo.''

That is an actual fundamental misapprehension

To je doista temeljito pogrešno shvaćanje

of the warnings that Orwell issued in "1984."

upozorenja koje je Orwell dao u ''1984''-toj.

The warning that he was issuing

Upozorenje koje je dao

was about a surveillance state

bilo je o nadzirućoj državi

not that monitored everybody at all times,

koja nije promatrala sve u svakom trenutku

but where people were aware that they could

već u kojoj su ljudi bili svjesni da mogu

be monitored at any given moment.

biti promatrani u bilo kojem trenutku.

Here is how Orwell's narrator, Winston Smith,

Evo kako Orwellov pripovjedač, Winston Smith,

described the surveillance system

opisuje nadzorni sustav

that they faced:

s kojim se suočava:

"There was, of course, no way of knowing

''Nije postojao, dakako, nikakav način da saznaš

whether you were being watched at any given moment."

promatraju li te u nekom trenutku.''

He went on to say,

Dalje govori,

"At any rate, they could plug in your wire

''U svakom slučaju, mogli su se priključiti

whenever they wanted to.

na tvoju žicu kad god su željeli

You had to live, did live,

Morao si živjeti, živio si,

from habit that became instinct,

uz naviku koja je postala instinkt,

in the assumption that every sound you made

uz pretpostavku da svaki zvuk kojeg napraviš

was overheard and except in darkness

načut i, osim u tami,

every movement scrutinized."

svaki pokret ispitan.''

The Abrahamic religions similarly posit

Abrahamske religije na sličan način

that there's an invisible, all-knowing authority

pretpostavljaju nevidljiv, sveznajuć autoritet

who, because of its omniscience,

koji, radi svoje svemogućnosti,

always watches whatever you're doing,

uvijek gleda što god radiš,

which means you never have a private moment,

što znači da nikada nemaš ni trenutak privatnosti,

the ultimate enforcer

i postaje krajnji primjenjivač

for obedience to its dictates.

poslušnosti koju zapovjeda.

What all of these seemingly disparate works

Ono što sva ova naizgled raznorodna djela

recognize, the conclusion that they all reach,

prepoznaju, zaključak do kojeg dolaze,

is that a society in which people

je da društvo u kojem ljudi

can be monitored at all times

mogu biti promatrani u svakom trenutku

is a society that breeds conformity

jest društvo koje potiče konformizam,

and obedience and submission,

poslušnost i podređivanje,

which is why every tyrant,

i zato svaki tiranin,

the most overt to the most subtle,

od najotvorenijeg do najsuptilnijeg,

craves that system.

žudi za tim sustavom.

Conversely, even more importantly,

S druge je strane, čak važnije,

it is a realm of privacy,

domena privatnosti,

the ability to go somewhere where we can think

sposobnost otići tamo gdje možemo misliti

and reason and interact and speak

i razlagati i imati odnose i razgovarati

without the judgmental eyes of others being cast upon us,

bez prosuđujućih očiju drugih na nama,

in which creativity and exploration

gdje kreativnost i istraživanje

and dissent exclusively reside,

i neslaganje isključivo prebivaju,

and that is the reason why,

i iz tog razloga,

when we allow a society to exist

kada dopustimo postojanje društva

in which we're subject to constant monitoring,

u kojem smo podložni stalnom promatranju

we allow the essence of human freedom

dopuštamo da suština ljudske slobode

to be severely crippled.

bude ozbiljno obogaljena.

The last point I want to observe about this mindset,

Zadnje što želim reći o ovome načinu razmišljanja,

the idea that only people who are doing something wrong

o ideji da jedino ljudi koji rade nešto krivo

have things to hide and therefore reasons to care about privacy,

imaju stvari za sakriti i stoga razloga za brigu o privatnosti,

is that it entrenches two very destructive messages,

je da prenosi dvije izrazito destruktive poruke,

two destructive lessons,

dvije destruktivne lekcije,

the first of which is that

od kojih je prva da su

the only people who care about privacy,

jedino oni ljudi koji brinu o privatnosti,

the only people who will seek out privacy,

jedino ljudi koji traže privatnost,

are by definition bad people.

po definiciji loši ljudi.

This is a conclusion that we should have

Ovaj zaključak govori da trebamo imati

all kinds of reasons for avoiding,

sve moguće razloge za izbjegavanje,

the most important of which is that when you say,

najvažniji od kojih je da kada kažeš,

"somebody who is doing bad things,"

''netko tko radi loše stvari'',

you probably mean things like plotting a terrorist attack

vrlo vjerojatno misliš stvari poput planiranja terorističkog napada

or engaging in violent criminality,

ili upuštanja u nasilna kaznena djela,

a much narrower conception

što je mnogo uža koncepcija

of what people who wield power mean

od one koju ljudi na pozicijama moći

when they say, "doing bad things."

imaju na umu kada kažu ''raditi loše stvari''.

For them, "doing bad things" typically means

Za njih, ''raditi loše stvari'' tipično znači

doing something that poses meaningful challenges

raditi nešto što postavlja smislen izazov

to the exercise of our own power.

prakticiranju vlastite moći.

The other really destructive

Druga izrazito destruktivna

and, I think, even more insidious lesson

i, smatram, još više podla lekcija

that comes from accepting this mindset

koja dolazi s prihvaćanjem ovog načina razmišljanja

is there's an implicit bargain

je da postoji implicitna pogodba

that people who accept this mindset have accepted,

na koju pristaju ljudi koji tako razmišljaju,

and that bargain is this:

a ta je pogodba sljedeća:

If you're willing to render yourself

Ako si spreman pretvoriti sebe

sufficiently harmless,

u nekoga dostatno bezopasnog,

sufficiently unthreatening

dostatno neprijetećeg,

to those who wield political power,

za one koji imaju političku moć,

then and only then can you be free

tada i samo tada bit ćeš slobodan

of the dangers of surveillance.

od opasnosti nadziranja.

It's only those who are dissidents,

Samo oni koji su disidenti,

who challenge power,

oni koji se opiru moći,

who have something to worry about.

imaju razloga za brigu.

There are all kinds of reasons why we should want to avoid that lesson as well.

Postoje brojni razlozi zašto bismo trebali željeti izbjeći i tu lekciju.

You may be a person who, right now,

Možda ste osoba koja, u ovom trenutku,

doesn't want to engage in that behavior,

ne želi biti uključena u takvo ponašanje,

but at some point in the future you might.

no možda ćete nekad u budućnosti željeti.

Even if you're somebody who decides

Čak i ako ste netko tko odlučuje

that you never want to,

nikada ne željeti to,

the fact that there are other people

činjenica da postoje drugi ljudi

who are willing to and able to resist

koji su voljni i spremni oduprijeti se

and be adversarial to those in power —

i protiviti onima na poziciji moći —

dissidents and journalists

disidenti i novinari

and activists and a whole range of others —

i aktivisti i cijeli niz drugih —

is something that brings us all collective good

ona je koja nam svima donosi zajedničku dobrobit

that we should want to preserve.

koju bismo trebali željeti sačuvati.

Equally critical is that the measure

Jednako kritično je da je mjera

of how free a society is

slobode našeg društva

is not how it treats its good,

ne kako se odnosi prema svojim dobrim,

obedient, compliant citizens,

poslušnim, popustljivim građanima,

but how it treats its dissidents

već kako se odnosi prema svojim disidentima

and those who resist orthodoxy.

i onima koji se opiru pravovjerju,

But the most important reason

No najvažniji razlog

is that a system of mass surveillance

jest da sustav masovnog nadzora

suppresses our own freedom in all sorts of ways.

potiskuje našu slobodu na brojne načine.

It renders off-limits

Stavlja izvan granica

all kinds of behavioral choices

razne odabire oblika ponašanja

without our even knowing that it's happened.

čak i bez da smo svjesni što se dogodilo.

The renowned socialist activist Rosa Luxemburg

Uvažena socijalistkinja Rosa Luxembourg

once said, "He who does not move

jednom je rekla, ''Onaj tko se ne kreće,

does not notice his chains."

ni ne primjećuje svoje lance.''

We can try and render the chains

Možemo pokušati pretvoriti lance

of mass surveillance invisible or undetectable,

masivnog nadzora u nešto nevidljivo, neprimjetljivo,

but the constraints that it imposes on us

no ograničenja koja nam postavljaju

do not become any less potent.

ne postaju time ništa manje moćna.

Thank you very much.

Hvala vam puno.

(Applause)

(Pljesak)

Thank you.

Hvala vam.

(Applause)

(Pljesak)

Thank you.

Hvala.

(Applause)

(Pljesak)

Bruno Giussani: Glenn, thank you.

Bruno Giussani: Glenn, hvala ti.

The case is rather convincing, I have to say,

Zvučiš vrlo uvjerljivo, moram reći,

but I want to bring you back

no htio bih te vratiti unatrag

to the last 16 months and to Edward Snowden

na zadnjih 16 mjeseci i Edwarda Snowdena

for a few questions, if you don't mind.

radi nekoliko pitanja, ako se slažeš.

The first one is personal to you.

Prvo je za tebe, osobno.

We have all read about the arrest of your partner,

Svi smo čitali o uhićenju tvoga partnera,

David Miranda in London, and other difficulties,

Davida Mirande u Londonu, i ostalim poteškoćama,

but I assume that

no pretpostavljam da,

in terms of personal engagement and risk,

u smislu osobnog angažmana i rizika,

that the pressure on you is not that easy

pritisak kojeg osjećaš nije lagan,

to take on the biggest sovereign organizations in the world.

kada napadaš najveće suverene organizacije svijeta.

Tell us a little bit about that.

Reci nam nešto malo više o tome.

Glenn Greenwald: You know, I think one of the things that happens

Glenn Greenwald: Znaš, mislim da je jedna od stvari koja se događa

is that people's courage in this regard

je da ljudska hrabrost u ovom slučaju

gets contagious,

postaje zarazna

and so although I and the other journalists with whom I was working

i premda ja i drugi novinari s kojima sam radio

were certainly aware of the risk —

sigurno jesmo bili svjesni rizika —

the United States continues to be the most powerful country in the world

Sjedinjene države i dalje su najmoćnija država na svijetu

and doesn't appreciate it when you

i ne cijene kada

disclose thousands of their secrets

otkrijete tisuće njihovih tajni

on the Internet at will —

na Internetu, svojevoljno —

seeing somebody who is a 29-year-old

vidjeti nekoga tko je 29-godišnja

ordinary person who grew up in

obična osoba odrasla

a very ordinary environment

u vrlo običnim okolnostima

exercise the degree of principled courage that Edward Snowden risked,

kako prakticira stupanj principijelne hrabrosti kakvu je riskirao Snowden,

knowing that he was going to go to prison for the rest of his life

znajući da će otići u zatvor do kraja života

or that his life would unravel,

ili da će mu se čitav život raspasti,

inspired me and inspired other journalists

nadahnulo me i nadahnulo druge novinare

and inspired, I think, people around the world,

i nadahnulo, smatram, ljude diljem svijeta,

including future whistleblowers,

uključujući buduće zviždače,

to realize that they can engage in that kind of behavior as well.

da shvate kako se i oni mogu uključiti u takav oblik ponašanja.

BG: I'm curious about your relationship with Ed Snowden,

BG: Zanima me kakav je tvoj odnos s Edom Snowdenom,

because you have spoken with him a lot,

jer si mnogo razgovarao s njim,

and you certainly continue doing so,

i sigurno nastavljaš to činiti,

but in your book, you never call him Edward,

no u svojoj ga knjizi nikada ne nazivaš Edward,

nor Ed, you say "Snowden." How come?

ni Ed, već ''Snowden''. Kako to?

GG: You know, I'm sure that's something

GG: Znaš, vjerujem da je to nešto

for a team of psychologists to examine. (Laughter)

što bi tim psihologa mogao ispitati. (Smijeh)

I don't really know. The reason I think that,

Ne znam zašto, zapravo. Mislim da je zato

one of the important objectives that he actually had,

što je jedan od važnih ciljeva koje je imao,

one of his, I think, most important tactics,

jedna od njegovih najvažnijih taktika,

was that he knew that one of the ways

bila da je znao da će jedan od načina

to distract attention from the substance of the revelations

za skretanje pozornosti sa sadržaja njegovih otkrića

would be to try and personalize the focus on him,

biti pokušaj da se fokus postavi na njega osobno,

and for that reason, he stayed out of the media.

i iz tog razloga odlučio ostati podalje od medija.

He tried not to ever have his personal life

Pokušao je izbjeći da se njegov osobni život

subject to examination,

počne ispitivati

and so I think calling him Snowden

i mislim da je zvati ga Snowden

is a way of just identifying him as this important historical actor

tek način na koji ga identificiram kao važnog povijesnog dionika

rather than trying to personalize him in a way

radije nego da ga personaliziram što bi

that might distract attention from the substance.

moglo odvući pozornost sa sadržaja.

Moderator: So his revelations, your analysis,

Moderator: Njegova otkrića, tvoja analiza,

the work of other journalists,

rad drugih novinara,

have really developed the debate,

sve je to razvilo debatu,

and many governments, for example, have reacted,

i mnoge su vlade, primjerice, reagirale,

including in Brazil, with projects and programs

uključujući Brazil, s projektima i programima

to reshape a little bit the design of the Internet, etc.

namijenjenima preoblikovanju izgleda Interneta, itd.

There are a lot of things going on in that sense.

Mnoge se stvari događaju u tom smjeru.

But I'm wondering, for you personally,

No pitam se, za tebe osobno,

what is the endgame?

što će biti kraj igre?

At what point will you think,

U kojem ćeš trenutku pomisliti,

well, actually, we've succeeded in moving the dial?

pa, zapravo smo uspjeli pomaknuti kazaljku?

GG: Well, I mean, the endgame for me as a journalist

GG: Pa, kraj igre za mene kao novinara

is very simple, which is to make sure

je vrlo jednostavan, to je osigurati

that every single document that's newsworthy

da svaki pojedini vijesti vrijedan dokument

and that ought to be disclosed

koji mora biti objavljen

ends up being disclosed,

završi objavljen,

and that secrets that should never have been kept in the first place

i da tajne koje to nikada nisu trebale biti

end up uncovered.

završe otkrivene.

To me, that's the essence of journalism

Za mene, to je suština novinarstva

and that's what I'm committed to doing.

i ono čemu sam posvećen.

As somebody who finds mass surveillance odious

Kao netko kome je masovni nadzor odbojan

for all the reasons I just talked about and a lot more,

iz svih razloga o kojima sam govorio, i mnogih drugih,

I mean, I look at this as work that will never end

mislim, smatram da moj rad neće stati

until governments around the world

dok vlade diljem svijeta

are no longer able to subject entire populations

više ne budu mogle podložiti čitave narode

to monitoring and surveillance

praćenju i nadzoru

unless they convince some court or some entity

osim ako uvjere neki sud ili entitet

that the person they've targeted

da je osoba koju ciljaju

has actually done something wrong.

zaista napravila nešto krivo.

To me, that's the way that privacy can be rejuvenated.

Za mene, to je put kroz koji privatnost može biti pomlađena.

BG: So Snowden is very, as we've seen at TED,

BG: Snowden se jako, kako smo i vidjeli u TED-u,

is very articulate in presenting and portraying himself

jako izričito predstavlja

as a defender of democratic values

kao branitelj demokratskih vrijednosti

and democratic principles.

i demokratskih načela.

But then, many people really find it difficult to believe

No mnogi ljudi nalaze teškim povjerovati

that those are his only motivations.

da je to jedina njegova motivacija.

They find it difficult to believe

Teško im je vjerovati

that there was no money involved,

da nije bilo novca posrijedi,

that he didn't sell some of those secrets,

da nije prodao neke od tih tajni,

even to China and to Russia,

čak i Kini ili Rusiji,

which are clearly not the best friends

koje sasvim jasno nisu najbolji prijatelji

of the United States right now.

Sjedinjenih država u ovom trenutku.

And I'm sure many people in the room

I siguran sam da mnogi ljudi u sobi

are wondering the same question.

sebi postavljaju ista pitanja.

Do you consider it possible there is

Smatraš li mogućim da postoji

that part of Snowden we've not seen yet?

taj dio Snowdena kojeg još nismo vidjeli?

GG: No, I consider that absurd and idiotic.

GG: Ne, smatram to apsurdnim i idiotskim.

(Laughter) If you wanted to,

(Smijeh) Ako biste željeli,

and I know you're just playing devil's advocate,

a znam da se igrate đavoljeg odvjetnika,

but if you wanted to sell

no ako biste željeli prodati

secrets to another country,

tajne drugoj zemlji,

which he could have done and become

što je on mogao napraviti i postati

extremely rich doing so,

iznimno bogat time,

the last thing you would do is take those secrets

zadnja stvar koju biste napravili je

and give them to journalists and ask journalists to publish them,

uzeli te tajne i dali ih novinarima

because it makes those secrets worthless.

i zamolili ih da ih objave, jer biste ih tako učinili bezvrijednima.

People who want to enrich themselves

Ljudi koji se žele obogatiti

do it secretly by selling secrets to the government,

to učine u tajnosti, prodajući tajne izravno vladama,

but I think there's one important point worth making,

no mislim da je jedno bitno napomenuti

which is, that accusation comes from

to da optužbe dolaze od

people in the U.S. government,

ljudi iz vlade SAD-a,

from people in the media who are loyalists

od ljudi u medijima koji su lojalisti

to these various governments,

tih različitih vlada,

and I think a lot of times when people make accusations like that about other people —

i mislim da mnogo puta kada ljudi, iznose takve optužbe o drugim ljudima -

"Oh, he can't really be doing this

''O, on to sigurno ne radi samo

for principled reasons,

iz principa,

he must have some corrupt, nefarious reason" —

sigurno mora imati pokvarene, opake razloge'' —

they're saying a lot more about themselves

oni kažu mnogo više o sebi samima

than they are the target of their accusations,

nego o metama njihovih napada,

because — (Applause) —

jer — (Pljesak) —

those people, the ones who make that accusation,

ti ljudi, koji iznose takve optužbe,

they themselves never act

oni sami nikada ne djeluju

for any reason other than corrupt reasons,

ni iz kakvih drugih doli pokvarenih razloga,

so they assume

tako da pretpostavljaju

that everybody else is plagued by the same disease

da su svi ostali zaraženi istom bolešću

of soullessness as they are,

bezdušnosti kao i oni sami,

and so that's the assumption.

tako da to postaje njihova pretpostavka.

(Applause)

(Pljesak)

BG: Glenn, thank you very much. GG: Thank you very much.

BG: Glenn, hvala ti puno. GG: Puno hvala vama.

BG: Glenn Greenwald.

BG: Glenn Greenwald.

(Applause)

(Pljesak)