Glenn Greenwald: Why privacy matters

翻译人员: Yuchen Shen 校对人员: Bighead Ge

There is an entire genre of YouTube videos

YouTube 里有这样一类视频

devoted to an experience which

我敢肯定在场所有人都有和视频里一样的经历

I am certain that everyone in this room has had.

It entails an individual who,

它会找来一个人

thinking they're alone,

让他觉得自己是一个人

engages in some expressive behavior —

然后让他做一些夸张的事情

wild singing, gyrating dancing,

比如大声唱歌，夸张地跳舞，

some mild sexual activity —

或者一些轻度性行为

only to discover that, in fact, they are not alone,

当这个人发现

that there is a person watching and lurking,

其实有人埋伏在看时

the discovery of which causes them

to immediately cease what they were doing

他会立刻停止在做的事情

in horror.

非常惊恐

The sense of shame and humiliation

很明显，他感到非常丢脸

in their face is palpable.

It's the sense of,

这种感觉是

"This is something I'm willing to do

一些事我可以做

only if no one else is watching."

但不能让人看到

This is the crux of the work

这正是我在最近16个月内所专心研究的内容

on which I have been singularly focused

for the last 16 months,

the question of why privacy matters,

为什么隐私这么重要

a question that has arisen

一个引起世界辩论的话题

in the context of a global debate,

enabled by the revelations of Edward Snowden

它由爱德华·斯诺登的揭密而引起

that the United States and its partners,

他揭露美国和其同盟

unbeknownst to the entire world,

瞒着整个世界

has converted the Internet,

把互联网

once heralded as an unprecedented tool

这个曾经预示着民主和自由的前所未有的工具

of liberation and democratization,

into an unprecedented zone

转变成前所未有的用来肆意监视的空间

of mass, indiscriminate surveillance.

There is a very common sentiment

在这场辩论中有一个普遍的论点

that arises in this debate,

even among people who are uncomfortable

甚至包括那些厌恶受到大量监视的人

with mass surveillance, which says

that there is no real harm

认为这种大范围的侵入并没有实质的伤害

that comes from this large-scale invasion

because only people who are engaged in bad acts

因为只有做坏事的人才想隐藏

have a reason to want to hide

and to care about their privacy.

才关心他们的隐私

This worldview is implicitly grounded

这种世界观暗含着一个议题：

in the proposition that there are two kinds of people in the world,

这个世界上有两种人

good people and bad people.

好人和坏人

Bad people are those who plot terrorist attacks

坏人是那些图谋恐怖袭击或者参与暴力犯罪的人

or who engage in violent criminality

and therefore have reasons to want to hide what they're doing,

所以他们想要隐藏他们做的事情

have reasons to care about their privacy.

想要保护他们的隐私

But by contrast, good people

相反的

好人是那些每天工作

are people who go to work,

come home, raise their children, watch television.

回家，带孩子，看电视的人

They use the Internet not to plot bombing attacks

他们用互联网不是为了策划炸弹袭击

but to read the news or exchange recipes

而是为了看新闻，交流食谱，

or to plan their kids' Little League games,

或者计划孩子的少年棒球比赛的

and those people are doing nothing wrong

这些人没做任何坏事

and therefore have nothing to hide

所以没有什么好隐藏的

and no reason to fear

也没有理由害怕政府监视他们

the government monitoring them.

The people who are actually saying that

说这些话的人

are engaged in a very extreme act

其实是在极大的自我贬低

of self-deprecation.

What they're really saying is,

他们其实是在说

"I have agreed to make myself

我决定让我自己成为

such a harmless and unthreatening

一个没有伤害没有威胁

and uninteresting person that I actually don't fear

又无趣的人

这样我就不会害怕政府知道我在做什么

having the government know what it is that I'm doing."

This mindset has found what I think

我发现这种心态

is its purest expression

和2009年谷歌CEO 艾瑞克 施密特接受采访时

in a 2009 interview with

the longtime CEO of Google, Eric Schmidt, who,

when asked about all the different ways his company

回答关于他的公司以各种方式 侵犯全世界几亿人的隐私的问题时

is causing invasions of privacy

for hundreds of millions of people around the world,

said this: He said,

所做出的纯粹的表达是一样的：

"If you're doing something that you don't want

如果你在做的事情是你不希望让别人知道的

other people to know,

maybe you shouldn't be doing it in the first place."

那么或许你首先就不应该做这件事

Now, there's all kinds of things to say about

现在，对于这种观念有各种各样的说法

that mentality,

the first of which is that the people who say that,

第一种说法是认为那些说隐私并不重要的人

who say that privacy isn't really important,

they don't actually believe it,

其实并不真的相信隐私不重要

and the way you know that they don't actually believe it

怎样发现他们并不相信呢

is that while they say with their words that privacy doesn't matter,

在他们说隐私并不重要的同时

with their actions, they take all kinds of steps

他们却在想方设法

to safeguard their privacy.

保卫他们的隐私

They put passwords on their email

他们给邮件设上密码

and their social media accounts,

还有社交网络账号

they put locks on their bedroom

他们给房门和厕所门上锁

and bathroom doors,

all steps designed to prevent other people

通过各种方法防止他人

from entering what they consider their private realm

进入他们的私人领域

and knowing what it is that they don't want other people to know.

他们其实心里很清楚他们不想让别人知道一切

The very same Eric Schmidt, the CEO of Google,

同样的，谷歌CEO艾瑞克 施密特

ordered his employees at Google

命令他在谷歌的员工

to cease speaking with the online

停止一切与网络杂志CNET（科技资讯网）的交流

Internet magazine CNET

after CNET published an article

因为CNET发表了一篇文章

full of personal, private information

透露了大量的艾瑞克 施密特的个人信息

about Eric Schmidt,

which it obtained exclusively through Google searches

这些信息其实是完全通过谷歌搜索 和其他谷歌产品获得的（笑声）

and using other Google products. (Laughter)

This same division can be seen

相同的情况也发生在Facebook的CEO 马克 扎克伯格身上

with the CEO of Facebook, Mark Zuckerberg,

who in an infamous interview in 2010

他在2010年那个名声狼藉的采访上

pronounced that privacy is no longer

断言隐私已经不再是一个“社会规范”

a "social norm."

Last year, Mark Zuckerberg and his new wife

去年，马克 扎克伯格和他的新任妻子

purchased not only their own house

在帕洛阿尔托（美国旧金山附近城市）购买了他们的新房子，以及附近相邻的其他四所房子

but also all four adjacent houses in Palo Alto

for a total of 30 million dollars

总值三千万美元

in order to ensure that they enjoyed a zone of privacy

为了确保他们享有足够的私人空间

that prevented other people from monitoring

防止人们监视他们的私人生活

what they do in their personal lives.

Over the last 16 months, as I've debated this issue around the world,

在过去的十六个月里， 我一直在世界各地游说这个问题

every single time somebody has said to me,

每当有人跟我说：

"I don't really worry about invasions of privacy

”我真的不担心隐私受到侵犯，

because I don't have anything to hide."

因为我没有什么需要隐藏的。”

I always say the same thing to them.

我总是对他们回答一样的话

I get out a pen, I write down my email address.

我拿出一支笔，写下我的邮箱地址

I say, "Here's my email address.

我说：”这是我的邮箱，

What I want you to do when you get home

我希望回家之后把你所有邮箱账号的密码发给我，

is email me the passwords

to all of your email accounts,

not just the nice, respectable work one in your name,

不仅仅是你工作上用的那些一本正经的邮箱

but all of them,

我要所有的

because I want to be able to just troll through

因为我就是想翻遍所有你的网上记录

what it is you're doing online,

read what I want to read and publish whatever I find interesting.

翻看到人和有趣的内容然后发表出来

After all, if you're not a bad person,

毕竟你不是个坏人

if you're doing nothing wrong,

你没做错事情

you should have nothing to hide."

你就没什么好隐藏的

Not a single person has taken me up on that offer.

没有任何一个人接受我的提议

I check and — (Applause)

我查过（掌声）

I check that email account religiously all the time.

我一直在虔诚的查看那个邮箱

It's a very desolate place.

那里一直很荒凉

And there's a reason for that,

这是有原因的

which is that we as human beings,

因为我们作为人类

even those of us who in words

即使一些人嘴上否认隐私的重要性

disclaim the importance of our own privacy,

instinctively understand

但他们心里很清楚它极大的重要性

the profound importance of it.

It is true that as human beings, we're social animals,

作为人类，我们是社会性动物

which means we have a need for other people

这意味着我们需要其他人

to know what we're doing and saying and thinking,

来帮助我们知道我们在做什么，说什么，想什么

which is why we voluntarily publish information about ourselves online.

这也是为什么我们自愿的在网上发布自己的信息

But equally essential to what it means

但是和成为一个自由的、完整的人类同等重要的是

to be a free and fulfilled human being

is to have a place that we can go

我们需要有一个地方完全远离其他人批判的目光

and be free of the judgmental eyes of other people.

There's a reason why we seek that out,

为什么我们要找到这样一个地方

and our reason is that all of us —

原因是我们所有人

not just terrorists and criminals, all of us —

－并非只有那些恐怖分子者和罪犯，而是我们所有人－

have things to hide.

都有想要隐藏的东西

There are all sorts of things that we do and think

我们做的、想的各种各样的事情

that we're willing to tell our physician

我们有只愿意告诉自己的医生,

or our lawyer or our psychologist or our spouse

或者律师，或者心理医生，或者配偶，

or our best friend that we would be mortified

或者好朋友的事情，如果让全世界都知道就会很囧的事情

for the rest of the world to learn.

We make judgments every single day

我们每天都会判断

about the kinds of things that we say and think and do

某些我们说的、想的、做的某些事情

that we're willing to have other people know,

我们愿意让别人知道

and the kinds of things that we say and think and do

还有某些我们说的、想的、做的某些事情

that we don't want anyone else to know about.

我们不愿意让别人知道

People can very easily in words claim

人们可以很轻易地说

that they don't value their privacy,

他们不在乎他们的隐私

but their actions negate the authenticity of that belief.

但他们的行为却在否定他们想法的真实性

Now, there's a reason why privacy is so craved

这有一个原因为什么隐私如此被渴望

universally and instinctively.

普遍地而且本能地

It isn't just a reflexive movement

这不仅仅是个反射性动作

like breathing air or drinking water.

像呼吸和喝水那样

The reason is that when we're in a state

原因是当在我们的国家里

where we can be monitored, where we can be watched,

我们被监视着，被看着的时候

our behavior changes dramatically.

我们的行为会有巨大的不同

The range of behavioral options that we consider

我们对于自己行为的选择范围

when we think we're being watched

在我们被观察者的时候

severely reduce.

会严重缩小

This is just a fact of human nature

这就是人类的本性

that has been recognized in social science

被社会科学所认识

and in literature and in religion

还有文学、宗教

and in virtually every field of discipline.

以及几乎所有学科领域

There are dozens of psychological studies

很多心理学研究证明

that prove that when somebody knows

当一个人知道他可能在被看着

that they might be watched,

the behavior they engage in

他的行为会尤其地顺从

is vastly more conformist and compliant.

Human shame is a very powerful motivator,

人的羞耻心是一个强大的动力

as is the desire to avoid it,

也是一个想要避开它的欲望

and that's the reason why people,

这就是为什么

when they're in a state of being watched, make decisions

人们在被看着的情况下所做的决定

not that are the byproduct of their own agency

并非他们自己机体的副产品

but that are about the expectations

而是别人或者社会正统所强加在他们身上的期望

that others have of them

or the mandates of societal orthodoxy.

This realization was exploited most powerfully

对于这件事的认识

for pragmatic ends by the 18th- century philosopher Jeremy Bentham,

被结束在十八世纪的实用主义哲学家 杰里米 边沁所大为利用

who set out to resolve an important problem

他解决了工业时期出现的一个很重要的问题：

ushered in by the industrial age,

where, for the first time, institutions had become

随着组织体系的开始增大和权力的不断集中，

so large and centralized

that they were no longer able to monitor

人们开始无法进行监控

and therefore control each one of their individual members,

也无法控制到每一个组织成员

and the solution that he devised

边沁的解决方案是

was an architectural design

一个建筑学设计

originally intended to be implemented in prisons

本来是为了加强监狱的

that he called the panopticon,

他称之为全景监狱

the primary attribute of which was the construction

其主要特征是将一个巨大的塔 建立在组织机构的中间

of an enormous tower in the center of the institution

where whoever controlled the institution

也就是统治者所在的地方

could at any moment watch any of the inmates,

这样统治者就可以随时看到其中的居民

although they couldn't watch all of them at all times.

虽然他不能一直看着所有的人

And crucial to this design

这个设计的关键处在于

was that the inmates could not actually

系统内的居民无法

see into the panopticon, into the tower,

看到塔的内部

and so they never knew

所以他们永远不知道

if they were being watched or even when.

自己是否或者什么时候是在被监视着的

And what made him so excited about this discovery

这也是这个设计让边沁兴奋的原因

was that that would mean that the prisoners

因为这意味着

would have to assume that they were being watched

囚犯们会假定

他们随时随地是被监视着的

at any given moment,

which would be the ultimate enforcer

这种假定成为了顺从和服从的终极实施者

for obedience and compliance.

The 20th-century French philosopher Michel Foucault

二十世纪法国哲学家米歇尔 福柯

realized that that model could be used

意识到这个模型不仅可以用于监狱

not just for prisons but for every institution

它可以用于任何控制人类行为的机构：

that seeks to control human behavior:

schools, hospitals, factories, workplaces.

学校、医院、工厂、工作场所

And what he said was that this mindset,

而且他说这种思维模式

this framework discovered by Bentham,

本沁发明的这种结构

was the key means of societal control

是现代西方社会进行社会控制的主要手段

for modern, Western societies,

which no longer need

让社会不再需要公然的使用暴政的武器

the overt weapons of tyranny —

punishing or imprisoning or killing dissidents,

－惩罚，或者投送监狱，或者处死异议者，

or legally compelling loyalty to a particular party —

或者合法地强迫一个政党对其忠诚－

because mass surveillance creates

因为大量的监视

a prison in the mind

会在人脑中形成一个囚犯

that is a much more subtle

一个更加细微的

though much more effective means

但更加有效的

of fostering compliance with social norms

力量让人服从社会规范

or with social orthodoxy,

或者社会正统

much more effective

这是暴力手段远不能及的

than brute force could ever be.

The most iconic work of literature about surveillance

关于监视和隐私，最形象的文学表达 是
乔治 奥威尔的小说《1984》

and privacy is the George Orwell novel "1984,"

which we all learn in school, and therefore it's almost become a cliche.

我们在学校都学过，它都快成了陈词滥调了

In fact, whenever you bring it up in a debate about surveillance,

事实上，在关于监视的讨论中 不论什么时候提到本书

people instantaneously dismiss it

人们都立即忽略它,

as inapplicable, and what they say is,

认为它行不通，他们说：

"Oh, well in '1984,' there were monitors in people's homes,

“在《1984》里人们家里都是监视器，

they were being watched at every given moment,

他们无时无刻不被看着，

and that has nothing to do with the surveillance state that we face."

这和我们所面对的国家监控是不一样的.”

That is an actual fundamental misapprehension

这其实是对奥威尔在《1984》里提出的警告 从根本上的误解

of the warnings that Orwell issued in "1984."

The warning that he was issuing

他所发出的警告

was about a surveillance state

其实不是关于国家随时随地在监视人们

not that monitored everybody at all times,

but where people were aware that they could

而是人们在任何时候都知道他们是被监视着的

be monitored at any given moment.

Here is how Orwell's narrator, Winston Smith,

这是温斯顿 史密斯，奥威尔小所里的叙述者，

described the surveillance system

所描述的他们面对的监控系统：

that they faced:

"There was, of course, no way of knowing

“当然，你不可能任何时刻都知道你在被监视。”

whether you were being watched at any given moment."

He went on to say,

他接着说：

"At any rate, they could plug in your wire

“无论如何，他们随时可以给你插上电线。

whenever they wanted to.

You had to live, did live,

你必须，也确实活在一个渐渐变成本能的习惯里，

from habit that became instinct,

in the assumption that every sound you made

习惯去假定你发出的任何声音都会被听到

was overheard and except in darkness

除了在黑暗中被仔细审查的时候。”

every movement scrutinized."

The Abrahamic religions similarly posit

亚伯拉罕诸教也有类似的设定

that there's an invisible, all-knowing authority

有一个无形的、无所不知的权威

who, because of its omniscience,

因为它的全知

always watches whatever you're doing,

它总是在看你在做什么

which means you never have a private moment,

意思就是你从来没有一刻是私有的

the ultimate enforcer

也就是让你服从它的命令的最终执行者

for obedience to its dictates.

What all of these seemingly disparate works

这些看似不同的手段

recognize, the conclusion that they all reach,

其实都归于相同的结论

is that a society in which people

一个永远在监视人们的社会

can be monitored at all times

is a society that breeds conformity

是在培养一致、顺从、和屈服

and obedience and submission,

which is why every tyrant,

这也是为什么每一个暴君

the most overt to the most subtle,

从公然施暴的到暗中控制的

craves that system.

都渴望这种制度

Conversely, even more importantly,

相反的，而且更重要的是

it is a realm of privacy,

在这样一个私人的空间里，

the ability to go somewhere where we can think

我们在里面可以思考，

and reason and interact and speak

辩论，互动，和交谈

without the judgmental eyes of others being cast upon us,

远离别人投来的批判的目光

in which creativity and exploration

只有创新、探索和异议可以存在

and dissent exclusively reside,

and that is the reason why,

这就是为什么

when we allow a society to exist

我们允许这样一个， 让我们受到持续监控的社会存在

in which we're subject to constant monitoring,

we allow the essence of human freedom

允许人类自由的本质惨遭残疾

to be severely crippled.

The last point I want to observe about this mindset,

我想说的最后一点是

the idea that only people who are doing something wrong

这种认为只有做了错事的人

have things to hide and therefore reasons to care about privacy,

才想隐藏，才关心隐私的思维模式

is that it entrenches two very destructive messages,

它确立了两个非常有害的信息

two destructive lessons,

两个破坏性的训诫

the first of which is that

第一个是

the only people who care about privacy,

只有那些关心隐私的人

the only people who will seek out privacy,

只有那些想得到隐私的人

are by definition bad people.

被定义为坏人

This is a conclusion that we should have

这是一个我们应该用各种理由避免的结论

all kinds of reasons for avoiding,

the most important of which is that when you say,

这其中最重要的是

"somebody who is doing bad things,"

当你说“那个人在做坏事”时

you probably mean things like plotting a terrorist attack

你可能是指谋划恐怖袭击

or engaging in violent criminality,

或参与暴力犯罪之类的事

a much narrower conception

这个概念比行使权力的人所指的“做坏事”要狭窄的多

of what people who wield power mean

when they say, "doing bad things."

For them, "doing bad things" typically means

对他们来说，“做坏事”基本上意思是

doing something that poses meaningful challenges

做对自己的权利形成一定挑战的事

to the exercise of our own power.

The other really destructive

另一个破坏性的

and, I think, even more insidious lesson

而且我认为更加阴险的训诫

that comes from accepting this mindset

来自于接受这种思维模式

is there's an implicit bargain

这其中暗含一个交易

that people who accept this mindset have accepted,

接受这种思维模式的人同时也接受这个交易

and that bargain is this:

这个交易就是：

If you're willing to render yourself

只要你愿意让自己

sufficiently harmless,

对那些行使政治权利的人毫无伤害、毫无威胁

sufficiently unthreatening

to those who wield political power,

then and only then can you be free

那么，也只有这样，你才就能够远离被监视的危险

of the dangers of surveillance.

It's only those who are dissidents,

只有那些唱反调的

who challenge power,

挑战权力的人

who have something to worry about.

有需要担心的事情

There are all kinds of reasons why we should want to avoid that lesson as well.

我们同样有各种各样的理由拒绝这个训诫

You may be a person who, right now,

你也许此时此刻

doesn't want to engage in that behavior,

不想参与到那些行为之中

but at some point in the future you might.

但也许将来什么时候你就会了

Even if you're somebody who decides

就算你决定

that you never want to,

你永远不会

the fact that there are other people

也会有其他人

who are willing to and able to resist

想要也能够反抗

and be adversarial to those in power —

和敌对那些权力之中的人

dissidents and journalists

比如政见不同的人，记者，

and activists and a whole range of others —

积极分子，还有其他很多人

is something that brings us all collective good

这是会给我们带来集体的好处的

that we should want to preserve.

是我们所想要保护的

Equally critical is that the measure

平等的批判是衡量一个社会自由程度的标尺

of how free a society is

is not how it treats its good,

不是看这个社会怎样对待好的、顺从它的公民

obedient, compliant citizens,

but how it treats its dissidents

而是看它如何对待政见不同的人

and those who resist orthodoxy.

以及那些反抗正统的人

But the most important reason

但是最重要的原因是

is that a system of mass surveillance

一个大量监视的制度

suppresses our own freedom in all sorts of ways.

会以各种方式压制我们的自由

It renders off-limits

它使我们的公众行为选择受到限制

all kinds of behavioral choices

without our even knowing that it's happened.

而且我们对此甚至全然不知

The renowned socialist activist Rosa Luxemburg

著名社会主义积极分子罗莎 卢森堡

once said, "He who does not move

曾经说过：“如果你不动， 你是不会发现身上的锁链的。”

does not notice his chains."

We can try and render the chains

我们可以试着粉饰这些大量的、无形的监视的锁链

of mass surveillance invisible or undetectable,

but the constraints that it imposes on us

但它对我们施加的限制不会有任何减少

do not become any less potent.

Thank you very much.

非常感谢

(Applause)

（掌声）

谢谢

Thank you.

（掌声）

(Applause)

Thank you.

谢谢

(Applause)

（掌声）

Bruno Giussani: Glenn, thank you.

布鲁诺 朱萨尼：格伦，非常感谢

The case is rather convincing, I have to say,

我必须说你的演讲十分有说服力

but I want to bring you back

但是我想回到十六个月前

to the last 16 months and to Edward Snowden

关于爱德华斯诺登我有几个问题 如果你不介意的话

for a few questions, if you don't mind.

The first one is personal to you.

第一个问题对你来说比较私人

We have all read about the arrest of your partner,

我们都看到了你的同伴大卫米兰达 在伦敦被捕的消息，以及他受到的磨难

David Miranda in London, and other difficulties,

but I assume that

但是我认为

in terms of personal engagement and risk,

就个人参与和风险来说

你身上的压力也不轻

that the pressure on you is not that easy

to take on the biggest sovereign organizations in the world.

承担着世界上最大的独立主权组织

Tell us a little bit about that.

给我们介绍一下吧

格林沃德：你知道吗，我认为 人们对于这件事的勇气是会传染的

Glenn Greenwald: You know, I think one of the things that happens

is that people's courage in this regard

gets contagious,

and so although I and the other journalists with whom I was working

所以即使我以及其他和我一起工作的记者们 知道事情的危险性

were certainly aware of the risk —

the United States continues to be the most powerful country in the world

美国仍然是世界上最强大的国家

and doesn't appreciate it when you

而且它不希望

你在网上任意泄露他大量的机密

disclose thousands of their secrets

on the Internet at will —

seeing somebody who is a 29-year-old

看着一个29岁的

ordinary person who grew up in

生长于普通家庭环境的普通人

a very ordinary environment

exercise the degree of principled courage that Edward Snowden risked,

用高度有原则的勇气承担着 像爱德华 斯诺登所承担的这样的风险

knowing that he was going to go to prison for the rest of his life

明知道他的后半生会在监狱中度过

or that his life would unravel,

或者他的生活会就此结束

inspired me and inspired other journalists

却激励着我，激励着其他的记者

and inspired, I think, people around the world,

激励着，我想，全世界的人

including future whistleblowers,

包括将来的告密者

to realize that they can engage in that kind of behavior as well.

让他们意识到他们一样可与参与进来

BG: I'm curious about your relationship with Ed Snowden,

朱萨尼：我很好奇你和爱德 斯诺登的关系

because you have spoken with him a lot,

因为你多次提到他

and you certainly continue doing so,

而且你肯定会继续说到他

but in your book, you never call him Edward,

但是在你的书里，你不会叫他“爱德华”

nor Ed, you say "Snowden." How come?

或者爱德，你叫他“斯诺登”，为什么？

GG: You know, I'm sure that's something

格林沃德：你知道吗，我确定这是 心理学家们要研究的事情（笑声）

for a team of psychologists to examine. (Laughter)

I don't really know. The reason I think that,

我不是很确定。我觉得原因是

one of the important objectives that he actually had,

他的一个很重要的目的

one of his, I think, most important tactics,

一个，我想，最重要的策略是

was that he knew that one of the ways

他知道如果要从他的启示录本身转移注意力

to distract attention from the substance of the revelations

would be to try and personalize the focus on him,

就是将注意力集中在他自己身上

and for that reason, he stayed out of the media.

因此他一直远离媒体

He tried not to ever have his personal life

他努力不让任何他的个人生活收到查问

subject to examination,

and so I think calling him Snowden

所以我觉得叫他斯诺登

is a way of just identifying him as this important historical actor

是一种视他为一个重要的历史人物

rather than trying to personalize him in a way

而不是将他个人化

that might distract attention from the substance.

从而导致分散对事件本身的注意力

Moderator: So his revelations, your analysis,

朱萨尼：所以他的启示录，你的分析,

the work of other journalists,

以及其他记者的文章

have really developed the debate,

已经发起一个辩论

and many governments, for example, have reacted,

而且很多政府，比如，已经做出回应

including in Brazil, with projects and programs

包括巴西，提出项目和方案

to reshape a little bit the design of the Internet, etc.

对互联网的设计做出一点修改，等等

There are a lot of things going on in that sense.

这样说来很多事情都在进行中

But I'm wondering, for you personally,

我在想，对你个人来说

what is the endgame?

什么才是最后的终结？

At what point will you think,

怎么样才可以说

well, actually, we've succeeded in moving the dial?

我们成功地转动了装盘？

GG: Well, I mean, the endgame for me as a journalist

格林沃德：我想终结对于我， 一个记者来说，很简单

is very simple, which is to make sure

就是确保每条新闻有报道价值

that every single document that's newsworthy

应该公开的信息得到公开

and that ought to be disclosed

ends up being disclosed,

and that secrets that should never have been kept in the first place

不应该成为秘密的秘密最终被揭开

end up uncovered.

To me, that's the essence of journalism

对我来说这就是记者的本质

and that's what I'm committed to doing.

也是我致力于做的事情

As somebody who finds mass surveillance odious

一些人很厌恶政府的监视

for all the reasons I just talked about and a lot more,

原因就像我之前讲到的那样，甚至更多

I mean, I look at this as work that will never end

我的意思是，我把这看作一份没有终结的工作

until governments around the world

直到全世界的政府不会再限制并且监视所有的人

are no longer able to subject entire populations

to monitoring and surveillance

unless they convince some court or some entity

除非他们可以说服法院或其他机构

that the person they've targeted

去相信他们监视的对象真的做了错事

has actually done something wrong.

To me, that's the way that privacy can be rejuvenated.

在我看来，这样，隐私才能是鲜活的。

BG: So Snowden is very, as we've seen at TED,

朱萨尼：所以斯诺登，在我们TED的讲台上看来，

is very articulate in presenting and portraying himself

是非常明确地表达自己的民主观念和民主原则的

as a defender of democratic values

and democratic principles.

But then, many people really find it difficult to believe

但是后来，很多人不相信这是他唯一的动力

that those are his only motivations.

They find it difficult to believe

他们不相信这之中没有钱的掺入

that there was no money involved,

that he didn't sell some of those secrets,

他们不相信他没有把那些机密卖给其他国家

even to China and to Russia,

甚至包括中国和俄罗斯

which are clearly not the best friends

这两个明显不是和美国的很友好的国家

of the United States right now.

And I'm sure many people in the room

而且我相信在坐的很多人

are wondering the same question.

都有同样的疑问

Do you consider it possible there is

你认不认为也许斯诺登的某一面

that part of Snowden we've not seen yet?

我们谁都没有见过

GG: No, I consider that absurd and idiotic.

格林沃德：不，我认为这太愚蠢而且荒唐了

(Laughter) If you wanted to,

（笑声）如果你想

and I know you're just playing devil's advocate,

我知道你只是在故意唱反调

but if you wanted to sell

但如果你真的想

secrets to another country,

把机密卖给别的国家

which he could have done and become

而且如果他真的卖了

他会变得非常有钱

extremely rich doing so,

the last thing you would do is take those secrets

那他不会想要把那些机密

and give them to journalists and ask journalists to publish them,

拿给记者来发表

because it makes those secrets worthless.

因为这样做会让那些机密变得不值钱

People who want to enrich themselves

想发财的人

do it secretly by selling secrets to the government,

会悄悄地把机密卖给政府

but I think there's one important point worth making,

但是有一点值得提的是

which is, that accusation comes from

那些指责来自美国政府

people in the U.S. government,

来自媒体里拥护各个政府的人

from people in the media who are loyalists

to these various governments,

and I think a lot of times when people make accusations like that about other people —

而且我认为很多时候人们指责别人：

"Oh, he can't really be doing this

他这样做肯定不是

for principled reasons,

出于正当原因

he must have some corrupt, nefarious reason" —

他肯定有什么腐败或者不法的意图

they're saying a lot more about themselves

他们其实更多的是在说他们自己

than they are the target of their accusations,

而不是他们指责的对象

because — (Applause) —

因为（掌声）

those people, the ones who make that accusation,

那些做出这些指责的人

they themselves never act

他们自己才只会出于腐败的原因做一些事情

for any reason other than corrupt reasons,

so they assume

所以他们才会假设

that everybody else is plagued by the same disease

所有人和他们一样

of soullessness as they are,

都受卑鄙无情这种疾病困扰

and so that's the assumption.

这就是他们的设想

(Applause)

（掌声）

BG: Glenn, thank you very much. GG: Thank you very much.

朱萨尼：格伦，非常感谢

格林沃德：非常感谢

朱萨尼：格伦 格林沃德

BG: Glenn Greenwald.

（掌声）

(Applause)