Glenn Greenwald: Why privacy matters

874,578 views ・ 2014-10-10

TED


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譯者: Melody Tang 審譯者: Bill Liu
00:12
There is an entire genre of YouTube videos
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YouTube 裡有一整類這種影片
00:15
devoted to an experience which
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我敢肯定在場所有人都有和 影片裡一樣的經歷
00:17
I am certain that everyone in this room has had.
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00:20
It entails an individual who,
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它會找來一個人
00:22
thinking they're alone,
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讓他覺得只有他自己在場
00:23
engages in some expressive behavior —
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然後讓他做一些表達自己的行為
00:27
wild singing, gyrating dancing,
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比如大聲唱歌,誇張地跳舞,
00:29
some mild sexual activity —
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或者一些性感動作
當這個人發現他並非獨處
00:32
only to discover that, in fact, they are not alone,
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00:34
that there is a person watching and lurking,
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其實有人在看偷著他時
00:37
the discovery of which causes them
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這個發現會使他立刻停止正在做的事情
00:39
to immediately cease what they were doing
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00:41
in horror.
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並且非常驚恐
00:43
The sense of shame and humiliation
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他們臉上很明顯的是羞辱和丟臉的表情
00:45
in their face is palpable.
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00:47
It's the sense of,
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顯然
00:49
"This is something I'm willing to do
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這些動作是在沒有別人看時
00:51
only if no one else is watching."
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才願意做的
00:54
This is the crux of the work
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這正是我在最近16個月內 所專心研究的重點:
00:57
on which I have been singularly focused
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00:59
for the last 16 months,
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01:01
the question of why privacy matters,
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為什麼隱私這麼重要?
01:03
a question that has arisen
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一個引起世界辯論的話題
01:05
in the context of a global debate,
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01:08
enabled by the revelations of Edward Snowden
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它由愛德華 斯諾登的揭密而引起
01:10
that the United States and its partners,
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他揭露美國和其同盟
01:13
unbeknownst to the entire world,
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瞞著整個世界
01:15
has converted the Internet,
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把網路
01:17
once heralded as an unprecedented tool
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這個曾經預示著民主和自由的 前所未有的工具
01:20
of liberation and democratization,
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01:23
into an unprecedented zone
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轉變成前所未有的用來 肆意監視大眾的空間
01:25
of mass, indiscriminate surveillance.
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01:29
There is a very common sentiment
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在這場辯論中有一個普遍的論點
01:31
that arises in this debate,
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01:32
even among people who are uncomfortable
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甚至包括那些對於廣泛監視 感到很不舒服的人
01:34
with mass surveillance, which says
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01:36
that there is no real harm
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認為這種大範圍的侵入並沒有實質的傷害
01:38
that comes from this large-scale invasion
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01:41
because only people who are engaged in bad acts
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因為只有做壞事的人才有理由想隱藏
01:44
have a reason to want to hide
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01:46
and to care about their privacy.
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才會在乎他們的隱私
01:49
This worldview is implicitly grounded
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這種世界觀隱含著一個議題
01:52
in the proposition that there are two kinds of people in the world,
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這個世界上有兩種人: 好人和壞人
01:54
good people and bad people.
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01:56
Bad people are those who plot terrorist attacks
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壞人是那些圖謀恐怖襲擊或者 參與暴力犯罪的人
01:59
or who engage in violent criminality
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02:00
and therefore have reasons to want to hide what they're doing,
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所以他們有理由想要隱藏他們做的事情
02:04
have reasons to care about their privacy.
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有理由要保護他們的隱私
02:06
But by contrast, good people
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而相反的
好人是那些每天去工作
02:08
are people who go to work,
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02:10
come home, raise their children, watch television.
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回家,帶孩子,看電視的人
02:13
They use the Internet not to plot bombing attacks
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他們不會用網路來策劃炸彈襲擊
02:16
but to read the news or exchange recipes
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而是為了看新聞,交流食譜,
02:18
or to plan their kids' Little League games,
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或者計劃孩子的少年棒球比賽
02:21
and those people are doing nothing wrong
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這些人沒做任何壞事
02:23
and therefore have nothing to hide
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所以沒有什麼好隱藏的
02:25
and no reason to fear
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也沒有理由害怕政府監視他們
02:27
the government monitoring them.
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02:30
The people who are actually saying that
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說這些話的人
02:32
are engaged in a very extreme act
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其實是在極大的自我貶低
02:34
of self-deprecation.
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02:36
What they're really saying is,
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他們其實是在說
02:38
"I have agreed to make myself
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我同意讓我自己成為
02:40
such a harmless and unthreatening
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一個不會傷害他人,沒有威脅性, 又無趣的人
02:43
and uninteresting person that I actually don't fear
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這樣我就不會害怕政府知道我在做什麼
02:46
having the government know what it is that I'm doing."
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02:49
This mindset has found what I think
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我發現這種心態
02:51
is its purest expression
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02:53
in a 2009 interview with
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和 2009 年谷歌 CEO 艾瑞克 施密特接受採訪時
02:55
the longtime CEO of Google, Eric Schmidt, who,
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02:58
when asked about all the different ways his company
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回答關於他的公司以各種方式
03:01
is causing invasions of privacy
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侵犯全世界幾億人的隱私的問題時
03:03
for hundreds of millions of people around the world,
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所做出的回應是純然一致的
03:06
said this: He said,
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03:08
"If you're doing something that you don't want
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他說,如果你在做的事情是你不希望 讓別人知道的
03:09
other people to know,
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03:11
maybe you shouldn't be doing it in the first place."
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那麼或許你從開始就不應該做這件事
03:15
Now, there's all kinds of things to say about
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對於這種理念有各種各樣的說法
03:17
that mentality,
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03:20
the first of which is that the people who say that,
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第一種說法認為那些說隱私並不重要的人
03:23
who say that privacy isn't really important,
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03:25
they don't actually believe it,
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並不真正相信隱私不重要
03:28
and the way you know that they don't actually believe it
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怎樣知道他們並不相信呢?
03:30
is that while they say with their words that privacy doesn't matter,
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在他們說隱私並不重要的同時
03:33
with their actions, they take all kinds of steps
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他們的行為卻是想方設法
03:36
to safeguard their privacy.
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保衛他們的隱私
03:39
They put passwords on their email
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他們給郵件設上密碼
03:40
and their social media accounts,
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還有社交網絡帳號
03:42
they put locks on their bedroom
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他們給房門和廁所門上鎖
03:44
and bathroom doors,
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03:45
all steps designed to prevent other people
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通過各種方法防止他人
03:48
from entering what they consider their private realm
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進入他們自認的私人空間
03:51
and knowing what it is that they don't want other people to know.
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其實他們很清楚他們不想讓別人 知道的事情
03:55
The very same Eric Schmidt, the CEO of Google,
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同樣的,谷歌CEO艾瑞克 施密特
03:58
ordered his employees at Google
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命令他在谷歌的員工
04:00
to cease speaking with the online
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停止一切與網路雜誌 CNET (科技資訊網)的交流
04:02
Internet magazine CNET
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04:05
after CNET published an article
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因為 CNET 發表了一篇文章
04:07
full of personal, private information
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透露了大量的艾瑞克 施密特的個人信息
04:09
about Eric Schmidt,
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04:11
which it obtained exclusively through Google searches
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這些信息其實是完全通過谷歌搜索
04:14
and using other Google products. (Laughter)
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和其他谷歌產品獲得的(笑聲)
04:18
This same division can be seen
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相同的情況也發生在 Facebook 的 CEO 馬克 扎克伯格身上
04:20
with the CEO of Facebook, Mark Zuckerberg,
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04:22
who in an infamous interview in 2010
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他在 2010 年那個聲名狼藉的採訪上
04:26
pronounced that privacy is no longer
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斷言隱私已經不再是一個“社會規範”
04:28
a "social norm."
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04:31
Last year, Mark Zuckerberg and his new wife
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去年,馬克 扎克伯格和他的新任妻子
04:34
purchased not only their own house
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在帕洛阿爾托(美國舊金附近城市) 不止購買了他們的房子,
04:36
but also all four adjacent houses in Palo Alto
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並且買了相鄰四個房子 總值三千萬美元
04:40
for a total of 30 million dollars
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04:41
in order to ensure that they enjoyed a zone of privacy
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為了確保他們享有足夠的私人空間
04:45
that prevented other people from monitoring
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防止人們監視他們的私人生活
04:47
what they do in their personal lives.
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04:51
Over the last 16 months, as I've debated this issue around the world,
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在過去的十六個月, 我一直在世界各地遊說這個問題
04:53
every single time somebody has said to me,
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每當有人跟我說
04:56
"I don't really worry about invasions of privacy
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”我真的不擔心隱私受到侵犯,
04:57
because I don't have anything to hide."
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因為我沒有什麼需要隱藏的。”
04:59
I always say the same thing to them.
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我總是對他們回答一樣的話
05:01
I get out a pen, I write down my email address.
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我拿出一支筆,寫下我的郵箱地址
05:03
I say, "Here's my email address.
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我說:“這是我的郵箱,
05:05
What I want you to do when you get home
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我希望回家之後把你所有郵箱賬號的 密碼發給我,
05:06
is email me the passwords
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05:08
to all of your email accounts,
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05:10
not just the nice, respectable work one in your name,
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不僅僅是你工作上用的那些 一本正經的郵箱
05:12
but all of them,
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我要所有的
05:14
because I want to be able to just troll through
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因為我就是想讀遍所有你的網上記錄
05:16
what it is you're doing online,
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05:18
read what I want to read and publish whatever I find interesting.
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然後將我認為有趣的內容發表出來
05:20
After all, if you're not a bad person,
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畢竟你不是個壞人 你沒做什麼壞事
05:22
if you're doing nothing wrong,
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05:24
you should have nothing to hide."
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你就沒什麼好隱藏的“
05:27
Not a single person has taken me up on that offer.
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沒有任何一個人接受我的提議
05:30
I check and — (Applause)
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我查過(掌聲)
05:34
I check that email account religiously all the time.
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我一直在認真的查看那個郵箱
05:38
It's a very desolate place.
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那裡一直很荒涼
05:41
And there's a reason for that,
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這是有原因的
05:43
which is that we as human beings,
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因為我們作為人類
05:45
even those of us who in words
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即使一些人嘴上否認隱私的重要性
05:47
disclaim the importance of our own privacy,
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05:49
instinctively understand
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但他們心裡很清楚它深遠的重要性
05:51
the profound importance of it.
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05:53
It is true that as human beings, we're social animals,
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事實上,作為人類,我們是社會性動物
05:56
which means we have a need for other people
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這意味著我們需要其他人
05:58
to know what we're doing and saying and thinking,
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知道我們在做什麼,說什麼,想什麼
06:01
which is why we voluntarily publish information about ourselves online.
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這也是為什麼我們自願的在網上 發佈自己的信息
06:05
But equally essential to what it means
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但是和成為一個自由的、完整的人類 同等重要的是
06:08
to be a free and fulfilled human being
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06:11
is to have a place that we can go
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我們需要有一個地方完全遠離 其他人批判的目光
06:13
and be free of the judgmental eyes of other people.
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06:17
There's a reason why we seek that out,
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為什麼我們要找到這樣一個地方 原因是我們所有人
06:19
and our reason is that all of us —
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06:22
not just terrorists and criminals, all of us —
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-並非只有那些恐怖分子者和罪犯,而是我們所有人-
06:25
have things to hide.
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都有想要隱藏的東西
06:27
There are all sorts of things that we do and think
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許多我們做的、想的各種各樣的事情
06:30
that we're willing to tell our physician
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我們只願意告訴自己的醫生,
06:33
or our lawyer or our psychologist or our spouse
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或者律師,或者心理醫生, 或者配偶,或者好朋友。
06:36
or our best friend that we would be mortified
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如果全世界都知道我們會覺得很囧
06:39
for the rest of the world to learn.
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06:41
We make judgments every single day
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我們每天都會判斷
06:43
about the kinds of things that we say and think and do
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某些我們說的、想的、做的某些事情
06:45
that we're willing to have other people know,
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我們願意讓別人知道
06:47
and the kinds of things that we say and think and do
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還有某些我們說的、想的、做的某些事情
06:49
that we don't want anyone else to know about.
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我們不願意讓別人知道
06:51
People can very easily in words claim
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人們可以很輕易地以言語宣稱
06:55
that they don't value their privacy,
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他們不在乎他們的隱私
06:57
but their actions negate the authenticity of that belief.
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但他們的行為卻在否定 他們所相信的真實性
07:02
Now, there's a reason why privacy is so craved
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這有一個原因為什麼人們如此 普遍地且本能地渴望隱私
07:06
universally and instinctively.
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07:07
It isn't just a reflexive movement
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這不僅僅是個反射性動作
07:09
like breathing air or drinking water.
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像呼吸和喝水那樣
07:12
The reason is that when we're in a state
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原因是當在我們在一種狀態裡
07:14
where we can be monitored, where we can be watched,
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我們可能被監視著,被看著的時候
07:17
our behavior changes dramatically.
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我們的行為會有巨大的改變
07:20
The range of behavioral options that we consider
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我們所考量的不同行為的範圍
07:23
when we think we're being watched
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在我們被觀察者的時候
07:25
severely reduce.
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會大幅縮小
07:27
This is just a fact of human nature
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這就是人類的本性的事實
07:29
that has been recognized in social science
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已被社會科學、
07:31
and in literature and in religion
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文學、宗教
07:33
and in virtually every field of discipline.
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以及幾乎所有學科領域所公認
07:35
There are dozens of psychological studies
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許多心理學研究證明
07:38
that prove that when somebody knows
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當一個人知道他可能在被看著
07:41
that they might be watched,
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07:42
the behavior they engage in
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他的行為會尤其地順從
07:44
is vastly more conformist and compliant.
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07:47
Human shame is a very powerful motivator,
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人的羞恥心是一個強大的動力
07:51
as is the desire to avoid it,
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以避免受辱
07:54
and that's the reason why people,
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這就是為什麼
07:55
when they're in a state of being watched, make decisions
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人們在被看著的情況下所做的決定
07:57
not that are the byproduct of their own agency
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並非他們自己機體的副產品
08:01
but that are about the expectations
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而是別人對他們的期望或者是 社會正統所要求的
08:03
that others have of them
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08:04
or the mandates of societal orthodoxy.
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08:09
This realization was exploited most powerfully
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對於這件現象的認識
被十八世紀的實用主義哲學家 杰裡米 邊沁為了務實的目的大為利用
08:11
for pragmatic ends by the 18th- century philosopher Jeremy Bentham,
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08:16
who set out to resolve an important problem
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以解決了工業時期出現的一個 很重要的問題
08:18
ushered in by the industrial age,
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08:20
where, for the first time, institutions had become
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就是當組織體系初次大幅擴張和 權力的集中以致於
08:22
so large and centralized
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08:24
that they were no longer able to monitor
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人們無法進行監視
08:26
and therefore control each one of their individual members,
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和控制到他們組織的每一個份子
08:29
and the solution that he devised
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邊沁的解決方案是
08:31
was an architectural design
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一個建築學設計
08:33
originally intended to be implemented in prisons
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本來的目的是用於監獄
08:36
that he called the panopticon,
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他稱之為全景監獄
08:38
the primary attribute of which was the construction
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其主要特徵是將一個巨大的塔 建立在組織機構的中間
08:40
of an enormous tower in the center of the institution
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08:43
where whoever controlled the institution
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這樣組織的統治者就可以隨時監視 其中的任一個囚犯
08:46
could at any moment watch any of the inmates,
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08:48
although they couldn't watch all of them at all times.
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雖然他不能一直看著所有的人
08:52
And crucial to this design
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這個設計的關鍵處在於
08:54
was that the inmates could not actually
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犯人無法看到塔的内部
08:55
see into the panopticon, into the tower,
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08:58
and so they never knew
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所以他們永遠無法知道
09:00
if they were being watched or even when.
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自己是否或者什麼時候是在被監視著的
09:02
And what made him so excited about this discovery
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這個發現讓邊沁非常興奮
09:06
was that that would mean that the prisoners
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因為這意味著囚犯們會假定
09:08
would have to assume that they were being watched
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他們隨時隨地是被監視著的
09:11
at any given moment,
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09:12
which would be the ultimate enforcer
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這種假定成為了順從和服從的終極實施者
09:14
for obedience and compliance.
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09:18
The 20th-century French philosopher Michel Foucault
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二十世紀法國哲學家米歇爾 福柯
09:21
realized that that model could be used
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意識到這個模型不僅可以用於監獄
09:23
not just for prisons but for every institution
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它可以用於任何控制人類行為的機構
09:26
that seeks to control human behavior:
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09:28
schools, hospitals, factories, workplaces.
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學校、醫院、工廠、工作場所
09:31
And what he said was that this mindset,
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而且他說這種思維模式 邊沁發明的這種結構
09:33
this framework discovered by Bentham,
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09:35
was the key means of societal control
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是現代西方社會進行社會控制的主要手段
09:39
for modern, Western societies,
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2002
09:41
which no longer need
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讓社會不再需要公然的使用暴政的武器
09:42
the overt weapons of tyranny —
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1907
09:44
punishing or imprisoning or killing dissidents,
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-懲罰,或者投送監獄, 或者處死異議者,
09:47
or legally compelling loyalty to a particular party —
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或者合法地強迫人民對一個政黨的忠誠
09:50
because mass surveillance creates
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因為廣泛的監控
09:52
a prison in the mind
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會在人腦中形成一個監獄
09:55
that is a much more subtle
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這是一個非常微妙的 且更加有效的
09:57
though much more effective means
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09:59
of fostering compliance with social norms
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使人服從社會規範 或者社會正統的方法
10:02
or with social orthodoxy,
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10:03
much more effective
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這是暴力手段遠不能及的
10:05
than brute force could ever be.
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10:08
The most iconic work of literature about surveillance
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關於監視和隱私,最標誌性的文學表達 是喬治 奧威爾的小說《1984》
10:11
and privacy is the George Orwell novel "1984,"
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10:14
which we all learn in school, and therefore it's almost become a cliche.
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我們在學校都學過,它都快成了 陳詞濫調了
10:18
In fact, whenever you bring it up in a debate about surveillance,
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事實上,在關於監視的討論中 不論什麼時候提到本書
10:20
people instantaneously dismiss it
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人們都立即忽略它
10:22
as inapplicable, and what they say is,
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認為它行不通,他們說:
10:24
"Oh, well in '1984,' there were monitors in people's homes,
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“在《1984》裡人們家裡都是監視器,
10:28
they were being watched at every given moment,
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他們無時無刻不被看著
10:30
and that has nothing to do with the surveillance state that we face."
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這和我們所面對的國家監控是 不一樣的。”
10:34
That is an actual fundamental misapprehension
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這其實是從根本上誤解奧威爾在《1984》裡提出的警告
10:37
of the warnings that Orwell issued in "1984."
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10:39
The warning that he was issuing
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他所發出的警告
10:41
was about a surveillance state
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其實不是關於國家隨時隨地在監視人們
10:43
not that monitored everybody at all times,
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10:45
but where people were aware that they could
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而是人們知道他們可能隨時被監視着
10:47
be monitored at any given moment.
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10:49
Here is how Orwell's narrator, Winston Smith,
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這是溫斯頓 史密斯, 奧威爾小說的敘述者,
10:52
described the surveillance system
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所描述的他們面對的監控系統:
10:54
that they faced:
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10:55
"There was, of course, no way of knowing
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“當然,你無從知道你何時在被監視著。”
10:57
whether you were being watched at any given moment."
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11:00
He went on to say,
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他接著說:
11:01
"At any rate, they could plug in your wire
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“但是,他們隨時想要是都可以插上 監視你的電線。
11:03
whenever they wanted to.
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1709
11:05
You had to live, did live,
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你必須,也確實地活在一個漸漸變成 本能的習慣裡,
11:07
from habit that became instinct,
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2253
11:09
in the assumption that every sound you made
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假定你發出的任何聲音都會被聽到,
11:12
was overheard and except in darkness
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和除了在黑暗中,你的所有的動作 被監視着。”
11:14
every movement scrutinized."
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2739
11:17
The Abrahamic religions similarly posit
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亞伯拉罕教派也有類似的斷定
11:20
that there's an invisible, all-knowing authority
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有一個無形的、無所不知的權威
11:23
who, because of its omniscience,
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1743
因為祂的全知全能
11:25
always watches whatever you're doing,
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總是在看你在做什麼
11:27
which means you never have a private moment,
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意思就是你從來沒有一刻是私有的
11:30
the ultimate enforcer
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這就是讓你對祂絕對服從最終執行者
11:31
for obedience to its dictates.
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11:34
What all of these seemingly disparate works
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這些看似不同的手段
11:38
recognize, the conclusion that they all reach,
280
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最終的共同的結論是
11:40
is that a society in which people
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一個人們隨時都在被監視的社會
11:43
can be monitored at all times
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11:45
is a society that breeds conformity
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是在培養一致、順從、和屈服
11:48
and obedience and submission,
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11:50
which is why every tyrant,
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這也是為什麼每一個暴君
11:52
the most overt to the most subtle,
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2082
從公然施暴的到暗中控制的
11:54
craves that system.
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都渴望這種制度
11:56
Conversely, even more importantly,
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相反的,而且更重要的是
11:59
it is a realm of privacy,
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在一個有隱私的空間裡
12:01
the ability to go somewhere where we can think
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我們可以去某處思考
12:04
and reason and interact and speak
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辯論,互動,和發表言論
12:07
without the judgmental eyes of others being cast upon us,
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而沒有別人投來的批判的目光
12:11
in which creativity and exploration
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只有在此創新、探索
12:14
and dissent exclusively reside,
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和異議可以存在
12:17
and that is the reason why,
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這就是為什麼 當我們允許一個
12:19
when we allow a society to exist
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12:22
in which we're subject to constant monitoring,
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12:24
we allow the essence of human freedom
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我們就是容許人類自由的本質慘遭蹂躪
12:27
to be severely crippled.
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12:30
The last point I want to observe about this mindset,
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最後,我對這種心理的一個觀察是
12:33
the idea that only people who are doing something wrong
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這種認為只有做了錯事的人
12:35
have things to hide and therefore reasons to care about privacy,
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才想隱藏,才關心隱私的思維模式
12:39
is that it entrenches two very destructive messages,
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它確立了兩個非常有害的信息
12:43
two destructive lessons,
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兩個破壞性的教導
12:45
the first of which is that
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第一個是
12:47
the only people who care about privacy,
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2120
只有那些關心隱私的人
12:49
the only people who will seek out privacy,
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2056
只有那些想得到隱私的人
12:51
are by definition bad people.
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被自然的被定義為壞人
12:55
This is a conclusion that we should have
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這是一個我們應該用各種理由避免的結論
12:57
all kinds of reasons for avoiding,
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2528
12:59
the most important of which is that when you say,
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2752
其中最重要的是
當你說“那個人在做壞事”時
13:02
"somebody who is doing bad things,"
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13:05
you probably mean things like plotting a terrorist attack
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2837
你可能是指謀劃恐怖襲擊
13:07
or engaging in violent criminality,
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2041
或參與暴力犯罪之類的事
13:09
a much narrower conception
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這個概念比行使權力的人所指的“做壞事” 要狹窄的多
13:12
of what people who wield power mean
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2452
13:14
when they say, "doing bad things."
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13:17
For them, "doing bad things" typically means
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2307
對他們來說,“做壞事”基本上意思是
13:19
doing something that poses meaningful challenges
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做對自己行使權利造成一定挑戰的事
13:22
to the exercise of our own power.
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13:25
The other really destructive
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另一個真正有破壞性的 而且我認為更加陰險的教導
13:27
and, I think, even more insidious lesson
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1908
13:29
that comes from accepting this mindset
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來自於接受這種思維模式
13:32
is there's an implicit bargain
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這其中暗含一個交易
13:34
that people who accept this mindset have accepted,
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接受這種思維模式的人同時 也接受了這個交易
13:38
and that bargain is this:
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1455
這個交易就是:
13:39
If you're willing to render yourself
327
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1972
只要你願意讓自己
13:41
sufficiently harmless,
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對那些行使政治權利的人不造成 傷害或威脅
13:43
sufficiently unthreatening
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13:45
to those who wield political power,
330
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1882
13:47
then and only then can you be free
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那麼,也只有這樣,你才就能夠遠離開 被監視的危險
13:50
of the dangers of surveillance.
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13:52
It's only those who are dissidents,
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而只有那些唱反調的
13:55
who challenge power,
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1481
挑戰權力的人 才需要擔心
13:56
who have something to worry about.
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1812
13:58
There are all kinds of reasons why we should want to avoid that lesson as well.
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我們同樣有各種各樣的理由 要避免這個教導
14:02
You may be a person who, right now,
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你也許此時此刻
14:04
doesn't want to engage in that behavior,
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不想參與那些行為
14:06
but at some point in the future you might.
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2455
但未來的某個時候你有可能會
14:08
Even if you're somebody who decides
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1674
就算你是那些已下決心 永遠不會的人
14:10
that you never want to,
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1765
14:12
the fact that there are other people
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也會有其他人 想要也能夠反抗
14:13
who are willing to and able to resist
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2204
14:16
and be adversarial to those in power —
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2034
和敵對那些權力之中的人
14:18
dissidents and journalists
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1534
比如政見不同的人,記者,
14:19
and activists and a whole range of others —
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積極分子,還有其他很多人
14:21
is something that brings us all collective good
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這是會給我們帶來集體的好處的 是我們所想要保護的
14:24
that we should want to preserve.
348
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2978
14:27
Equally critical is that the measure
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同樣重要的是衡量一個社會自由程度 的標尺
14:29
of how free a society is
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2263
14:31
is not how it treats its good,
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2150
不是看這個社會怎樣對待好的、 順從它的公民
14:33
obedient, compliant citizens,
352
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2463
14:36
but how it treats its dissidents
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而是看它如何對待不同意見的人 以及那些反抗正統的人
14:38
and those who resist orthodoxy.
354
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3115
14:41
But the most important reason
355
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1597
但是最重要的原因是
14:42
is that a system of mass surveillance
356
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2401
一個廣泛監視的制度
14:45
suppresses our own freedom in all sorts of ways.
357
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2617
會以各種方式壓制我們的自由
14:47
It renders off-limits
358
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1801
設定各種行為選擇的禁地
14:49
all kinds of behavioral choices
359
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2006
14:51
without our even knowing that it's happened.
360
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3553
而我們甚至全然沒有意識到
14:55
The renowned socialist activist Rosa Luxemburg
361
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2482
著名社會主義積極分子羅莎 盧森堡
14:57
once said, "He who does not move
362
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2493
曾經說過:“如果你不動, 你不會發現身上的鎖鏈。”
15:00
does not notice his chains."
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3356
15:03
We can try and render the chains
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我們可以試著粉飾這些廣泛的監視的鎖鏈為無形的或無法測出的
15:05
of mass surveillance invisible or undetectable,
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3089
15:08
but the constraints that it imposes on us
366
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2666
但它對我們施加的限制不會有任何減少
15:10
do not become any less potent.
367
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2545
15:13
Thank you very much.
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1608
非常感謝
15:15
(Applause)
369
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1431
(掌聲)
謝謝
15:16
Thank you.
370
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1507
(掌聲)
15:17
(Applause)
371
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4897
15:22
Thank you.
372
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2387
謝謝
15:25
(Applause)
373
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2842
(掌聲)
15:31
Bruno Giussani: Glenn, thank you.
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布魯諾 朱薩尼:格倫,非常感謝 我必須說你的演講十分有說服力
15:33
The case is rather convincing, I have to say,
375
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2289
15:35
but I want to bring you back
376
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1565
但是我想回到十六個月前
15:37
to the last 16 months and to Edward Snowden
377
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3351
關於愛德華 斯諾登,如果你不介意的話 我有幾個問題
15:40
for a few questions, if you don't mind.
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2065
15:42
The first one is personal to you.
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2488
第一個問題對你來說比較私人性的
15:45
We have all read about the arrest of your partner,
380
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3041
我們都看到了你的同伴大衛米蘭達 在倫敦被捕的消息,
15:48
David Miranda in London, and other difficulties,
381
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3310
以及他受到的磨難 但是我認為
15:51
but I assume that
382
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2084
15:53
in terms of personal engagement and risk,
383
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3356
就個人參與和風險來說 你身上的壓力也不輕
15:57
that the pressure on you is not that easy
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1804
15:58
to take on the biggest sovereign organizations in the world.
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2945
承擔著世界上最大的獨立主權組織
16:01
Tell us a little bit about that.
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2435
給我們介紹一下吧
格林沃德:我認為人們對於這件事的 勇氣是會傳染的
16:04
Glenn Greenwald: You know, I think one of the things that happens
387
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1655
16:06
is that people's courage in this regard
388
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1932
16:07
gets contagious,
389
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1712
16:09
and so although I and the other journalists with whom I was working
390
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3463
所以即使我以及其他和我一起 工作的記者們
當然知道事情的危險性
16:13
were certainly aware of the risk —
391
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1536
16:14
the United States continues to be the most powerful country in the world
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2722
美國仍然是世界上最強大的國家
16:17
and doesn't appreciate it when you
393
977365
1998
而且它不希望
你在網上任意泄露他大量的機密
16:19
disclose thousands of their secrets
394
979363
1922
16:21
on the Internet at will —
395
981285
2511
16:23
seeing somebody who is a 29-year-old
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3469
看著一個29歲的
16:27
ordinary person who grew up in
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987265
2019
生長於普通家庭環境的普通人
16:29
a very ordinary environment
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989284
2313
16:31
exercise the degree of principled courage that Edward Snowden risked,
399
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3723
用高度有原則的勇氣承擔著 像愛德華 斯諾登所承擔的這樣的風險
16:35
knowing that he was going to go to prison for the rest of his life
400
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2220
明知道他的後半生會在監獄中度過
16:37
or that his life would unravel,
401
997540
1782
或者他的生活會就此結束
16:39
inspired me and inspired other journalists
402
999322
1975
激勵著我,激勵著其他的記者
16:41
and inspired, I think, people around the world,
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1823
激勵著,我想,全世界的人
16:43
including future whistleblowers,
404
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1688
包括將來的告密者
16:44
to realize that they can engage in that kind of behavior as well.
405
1004808
3515
讓他們意識到他們一樣可與參與進來
16:48
BG: I'm curious about your relationship with Ed Snowden,
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1008323
2486
朱薩尼:我很好奇你和愛德 斯諾登的 關係
16:50
because you have spoken with him a lot,
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3181
因為你多次與他談話
16:53
and you certainly continue doing so,
408
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1763
而且你肯定會繼續與他談話
16:55
but in your book, you never call him Edward,
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2636
但是在你的書裡,你不會叫他“愛德華”
16:58
nor Ed, you say "Snowden." How come?
410
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3460
或者愛德,你叫他“斯諾登”,為什麼?
17:01
GG: You know, I'm sure that's something
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1644
格林沃德:你知道嗎,我想這是 心理學家們要研究的事情(笑聲)
17:03
for a team of psychologists to examine. (Laughter)
412
1023493
3331
17:06
I don't really know. The reason I think that,
413
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3589
我不是很確定。我覺得原因是
17:10
one of the important objectives that he actually had,
414
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3554
他的一個很重要的目的
17:13
one of his, I think, most important tactics,
415
1033967
2336
我想,其中最重要的一個策略是
17:16
was that he knew that one of the ways
416
1036303
2207
他知道如果(有人)要轉移對他 所揭露的重點的注意力
17:18
to distract attention from the substance of the revelations
417
1038510
2690
17:21
would be to try and personalize the focus on him,
418
1041200
2650
就會試著將注意力集中在他個人身上
17:23
and for that reason, he stayed out of the media.
419
1043850
2067
因此他一直遠離媒體
17:25
He tried not to ever have his personal life
420
1045917
2509
他努力不讓任何他的個人生活受到查問
17:28
subject to examination,
421
1048426
1679
17:30
and so I think calling him Snowden
422
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2714
所以我覺得叫他斯諾登
17:32
is a way of just identifying him as this important historical actor
423
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3574
是一種視他為一個重要的歷史人物
17:36
rather than trying to personalize him in a way
424
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1872
而不是將他個人化
17:38
that might distract attention from the substance.
425
1058265
2880
從而導致分散對此事件本身的注意力
17:41
Moderator: So his revelations, your analysis,
426
1061145
1457
朱薩尼:所以他所揭露的,你的分析, 以及其他記者的文章
17:42
the work of other journalists,
427
1062602
1776
17:44
have really developed the debate,
428
1064378
3000
已經發展出一個辯論
17:47
and many governments, for example, have reacted,
429
1067378
2128
而且很多政府,比如,已經做出回應
17:49
including in Brazil, with projects and programs
430
1069506
2604
包括巴西,提出項目和方案
17:52
to reshape a little bit the design of the Internet, etc.
431
1072110
2854
對互聯網的設計做出一點修改,等等
17:54
There are a lot of things going on in that sense.
432
1074964
2752
這樣說來很多事情都在進行中
17:57
But I'm wondering, for you personally,
433
1077716
2270
我很好奇,對你個人來說
17:59
what is the endgame?
434
1079986
1651
什麼才是最後的終結?
18:01
At what point will you think,
435
1081637
1633
怎麼樣你才會說
18:03
well, actually, we've succeeded in moving the dial?
436
1083270
3192
我們已成功地啟動了轉盤
18:06
GG: Well, I mean, the endgame for me as a journalist
437
1086462
2278
格林沃德:我想終結對於我, 一個記者來說,很簡單
18:08
is very simple, which is to make sure
438
1088740
2443
就是確保每條新聞有報道價值的
18:11
that every single document that's newsworthy
439
1091183
2012
18:13
and that ought to be disclosed
440
1093195
1646
應該公開的得到公開
18:14
ends up being disclosed,
441
1094841
1480
18:16
and that secrets that should never have been kept in the first place
442
1096321
2037
不應該成為秘密的秘密最終被揭開
18:18
end up uncovered.
443
1098358
1475
18:19
To me, that's the essence of journalism
444
1099833
1847
對我來說這就是記者的本質
18:21
and that's what I'm committed to doing.
445
1101680
1527
也是我承諾要做的事情
18:23
As somebody who finds mass surveillance odious
446
1103207
2474
一些人很厭惡政府的監視
18:25
for all the reasons I just talked about and a lot more,
447
1105681
2187
如同我剛才講到的那些原因,甚至更多
18:27
I mean, I look at this as work that will never end
448
1107868
2526
我把這看做一份沒有終結的工作
18:30
until governments around the world
449
1110394
2177
直到全世界的政府不能再
18:32
are no longer able to subject entire populations
450
1112571
2619
監視和控制所有的人民
18:35
to monitoring and surveillance
451
1115190
1486
18:36
unless they convince some court or some entity
452
1116676
2589
除非他們可以說服法院或其他機構
18:39
that the person they've targeted
453
1119265
1722
他們監視的對象真的做了錯事
18:40
has actually done something wrong.
454
1120987
2591
18:43
To me, that's the way that privacy can be rejuvenated.
455
1123578
3235
對我來說,這樣,隱私才能被還原
18:46
BG: So Snowden is very, as we've seen at TED,
456
1126813
2346
朱薩尼:所以斯諾登,在我們TED的講台上看來,
18:49
is very articulate in presenting and portraying himself
457
1129159
2768
非常明確地表達自己是
18:51
as a defender of democratic values
458
1131927
2280
民主觀念和民主原則的捍衛者
18:54
and democratic principles.
459
1134207
1713
18:55
But then, many people really find it difficult to believe
460
1135920
3028
但是,很多人不相信這些是 他唯一的動機
18:58
that those are his only motivations.
461
1138948
2402
19:01
They find it difficult to believe
462
1141350
1478
他們不相信這之中沒有錢的摻入
19:02
that there was no money involved,
463
1142828
1621
19:04
that he didn't sell some of those secrets,
464
1144449
1911
他們不相信他沒有把那些機密 賣給其他國家
19:06
even to China and to Russia,
465
1146360
1829
甚至包括中國和俄羅斯
19:08
which are clearly not the best friends
466
1148189
2544
這兩個顯然不是和美國的很友好的國家
19:10
of the United States right now.
467
1150733
2169
19:12
And I'm sure many people in the room
468
1152902
1706
而且我相信在坐的很多人 都有同樣的疑問
19:14
are wondering the same question.
469
1154608
2270
19:16
Do you consider it possible there is
470
1156878
1883
你認不認為也許斯諾登的某一面 我們誰都沒有見過
19:18
that part of Snowden we've not seen yet?
471
1158761
2612
19:21
GG: No, I consider that absurd and idiotic.
472
1161373
3181
格林沃德:不,我認為這太愚蠢而且荒唐
19:24
(Laughter) If you wanted to,
473
1164554
2414
(笑聲)如果你想
19:26
and I know you're just playing devil's advocate,
474
1166968
2462
我知道你只是在故意唱反調
19:29
but if you wanted to sell
475
1169430
3211
但如果你真的想
19:32
secrets to another country,
476
1172641
1906
把機密賣給別的國家
19:34
which he could have done and become
477
1174547
1717
而且如果他真的賣了 他會變得非常有錢
19:36
extremely rich doing so,
478
1176264
1646
19:37
the last thing you would do is take those secrets
479
1177910
1981
那他不會想要把那些機密
19:39
and give them to journalists and ask journalists to publish them,
480
1179891
2744
拿給記者來發表
19:42
because it makes those secrets worthless.
481
1182635
2026
因為這樣做會讓那些機密變得不值錢
19:44
People who want to enrich themselves
482
1184661
1648
想發財的人
19:46
do it secretly by selling secrets to the government,
483
1186309
1970
會悄悄地把機密賣給政府
19:48
but I think there's one important point worth making,
484
1188279
1821
但是有一點值得提的是
19:50
which is, that accusation comes from
485
1190100
2238
那些指責來自美國政府
19:52
people in the U.S. government,
486
1192338
1832
來自媒體裡擁護各個政府的人
19:54
from people in the media who are loyalists
487
1194170
2020
19:56
to these various governments,
488
1196190
1598
19:57
and I think a lot of times when people make accusations like that about other people —
489
1197788
3148
而且我認為很多時候人們指責別人:
20:00
"Oh, he can't really be doing this
490
1200936
1605
他這樣做肯定不是
20:02
for principled reasons,
491
1202541
1665
出於正當原因
20:04
he must have some corrupt, nefarious reason" —
492
1204206
2242
他肯定有什麼腐敗或者不法的意圖
20:06
they're saying a lot more about themselves
493
1206448
2107
他們其實更多的是在說他們自己
20:08
than they are the target of their accusations,
494
1208555
1826
而不是他們指責的對象
20:10
because — (Applause) —
495
1210381
4385
因為(掌聲)
20:14
those people, the ones who make that accusation,
496
1214766
2520
那些做出這些指責的人
20:17
they themselves never act
497
1217286
1904
他們自己只會出於腐敗的原因 做一些事情
20:19
for any reason other than corrupt reasons,
498
1219190
1922
20:21
so they assume
499
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1632
所以他們才會假設
20:22
that everybody else is plagued by the same disease
500
1222744
2632
所有人和他們一樣 都身患沒有靈魂的疾病
20:25
of soullessness as they are,
501
1225376
2002
20:27
and so that's the assumption.
502
1227378
1871
這就是他們的設想
20:29
(Applause)
503
1229249
1627
(掌聲)
20:30
BG: Glenn, thank you very much. GG: Thank you very much.
504
1230876
2484
格林沃德:非常感謝 朱薩尼:謝謝
朱薩尼:格倫 格林沃德
20:33
BG: Glenn Greenwald.
505
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2332
(掌聲)
20:35
(Applause)
506
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1114
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