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譯者: Geoff Chen
審譯者: Zhu Jie
00:17
One thing the world needs,
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這個世界所必要的一件東西
00:19
one thing this country desperately needs
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這國家所急需的
00:21
is a better way
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是一個更好的
00:23
of conducting our political debates.
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論辯政治的方式
00:25
We need to rediscover
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我們需要重新發現
00:27
the lost art of democratic argument.
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早已失傳的民主論辯的技藝
00:30
(Applause)
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(掌聲)
00:36
If you think about the arguments we have,
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想想我們現今的主要辯論,
00:39
most of the time it's shouting matches
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大多數時間,它們都是
00:41
on cable television,
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有線電視頻道上的叫囂比賽
00:43
ideological food fights on the floor of Congress.
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國會上演的意識形態 大胃王比賽
00:48
I have a suggestion.
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我有一個建議
00:50
Look at all the arguments we have these days
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看看近來 我們所有的這些
00:53
over health care,
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關於健保的辯論、
00:55
over bonuses and bailouts on Wall Street,
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看看關於華爾街的獎金和緊急援助、
00:58
over the gap between rich and poor,
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關於貧富差距、
01:01
over affirmative action and same-sex marriage.
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看看關於防止種族與性別歧視的 積極行動和同性婚姻
01:04
Lying just beneath the surface
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在這些爭論之下
01:06
of those arguments,
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潛藏著
01:09
with passions raging on all sides,
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一種鼓噪的欲望湧向四方,
01:12
are big questions
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這些是
01:15
of moral philosophy,
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倫理哲學上的大問題
01:17
big questions of justice.
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涉及正義的大問題
01:19
But we too rarely
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但我們卻很少
01:21
articulate and defend
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表達、維護、
01:24
and argue about
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與爭論
01:26
those big moral questions in our politics.
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這些藏於我們政治生活中的倫理議題
01:29
So what I would like to do today
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所以,今天我要做的是
01:32
is have something of a discussion.
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討論一些事
01:34
First, let me take
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首先,讓我引述
01:36
a famous philosopher
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一位著名哲學家的話
01:38
who wrote about those questions
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他曾寫過這些關於
01:40
of justice and morality,
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正義與道德的問題,
01:42
give you a very short lecture
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我要談一段在舊時雅典
01:44
on Aristotle of ancient Athens,
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古老雅典時代的亞理斯多德
01:47
Aristotle's theory of justice,
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的正義論
01:49
and then have a discussion here
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接著會後討論
01:52
to see whether Aristotle's ideas
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看看亞理斯多德的想法
01:54
actually inform
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是否在實際上,
01:56
the way we think and argue
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告訴了我們 思考與辯論
01:58
about questions today.
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今日問題的方法
02:01
So, are you ready for the lecture?
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所以,你們準備好這堂課了嗎?
02:05
According to Aristotle,
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根據亞理斯多德
02:07
justice means giving people what they deserve.
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正義 意指 給予人們他們所應得的
02:13
That's it; that's the lecture.
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意思就是,這堂課
02:15
(Laughter)
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(笑聲)
02:18
Now, you may say, well, that's obvious enough.
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現在,你們也許會說,嗯,那是再明白不過的道理
02:20
The real questions begin
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真正的問題開始於
02:22
when it comes to arguing about
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當人們爭論
02:24
who deserves what and why.
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誰應該得到什麽、以及爲什麽
02:28
Take the example of flutes.
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以長笛為例
02:30
Suppose we're distributing flutes.
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假設我們分配長笛
02:33
Who should get the best ones?
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誰應得到那最好的呢?
02:35
Let's see what people --
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讓我們看看有誰...
02:37
What would you say?
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你認為呢?
02:39
Who should get the best flute?
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誰應該得到最好的?
02:41
You can just call it out.
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你可以直接說
02:43
(Audience: Random.)
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(觀眾:隨機分配)
02:45
Michael Sandel: At random. You would do it by lottery.
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Michael Sandel:隨機選取,你們可以透過抽籤
02:47
Or by the first person to rush into the hall to get them.
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或者先到先拿
02:51
Who else?
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哪一種?
02:53
(Audience: The best flute players.)
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(觀眾:最優秀的長笛吹奏者)
02:55
MS: The best flute players. (Audience: The worst flute players.)
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Michael Sandel:最優秀的長笛樂手(觀眾:最糟的長笛樂手)
02:57
MS: The worst flute players.
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Michael Sandel:最糟的長笛樂手
03:00
How many say the best flute players?
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有多少人贊同 最優秀的長笛樂手
03:04
Why?
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爲什麽?
03:07
Actually, that was Aristotle's answer too.
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事實上,那也是亞理斯多德的答案
03:10
(Laughter)
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(笑聲)
03:12
But here's a harder question.
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但這裡有個更難的問題
03:14
Why do you think,
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爲什麽你們認為
03:16
those of you who voted this way,
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你們這些贊成此法的人
03:18
that the best flutes should go to the best flute players?
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最好的長笛 應該給予最優秀的長笛樂手呢?
03:21
Peter: The greatest benefit to all.
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Peter:這賦予所有人最大的利益
03:23
MS: The greatest benefit to all.
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Michael Sandel:賦予所有人最大利益
03:25
We'll hear better music
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我們得以聆聽好音樂
03:27
if the best flutes should go to the best flute players.
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如果把最好的長笛 給予最優秀的長笛樂手
03:30
That's Peter? (Audience: Peter.)
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那是 Peter?(觀眾:Peter)
03:32
MS: All right.
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Michael Sandel:好的。
03:35
Well, it's a good reason.
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嗯,這是好理由
03:37
We'll all be better off if good music is played
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我們所有人都會過得比較好,假使他演奏好音樂的話
03:39
rather than terrible music.
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而不是難聽的音樂
03:43
But Peter,
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但是,Peter
03:45
Aristotle doesn't agree with you that that's the reason.
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亞理斯多德並不同意 你所說的是合理的
03:48
That's all right.
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沒關係
03:50
Aristotle had a different reason
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亞理斯多德有不同的理由
03:52
for saying the best flutes should go to the best flute players.
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當他提到 最好的長笛應該給予最優秀的長笛樂手
03:55
He said,
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他說
03:57
that's what flutes are for --
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那是長笛存在的目的
03:59
to be played well.
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就是要被拿來好好演奏
04:02
He says that to reason about
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他說 推論一件事物
04:04
just distribution of a thing,
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是否公平地分配
04:07
we have to reason about,
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我們必須提出、
04:10
and sometimes argue about,
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並且有時候要辯論
04:12
the purpose of the thing,
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這東西的目的何在
04:14
or the social activity --
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或 這個社會活動的目的何在
04:16
in this case, musical performance.
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在這個案例中,是音樂表演,
04:18
And the point, the essential nature,
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在這一點上,音樂表演的
04:20
of musical performance
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主要本質
04:22
is to produce excellent music.
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是爲了產生絕佳的音樂
04:24
It'll be a happy byproduct
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它會營造一個歡樂的副產品
04:26
that we'll all benefit.
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使我們所有人皆獲得益處
04:30
But when we think about justice,
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但,當我們思考正義時
04:33
Aristotle says,
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亞理斯多德說
04:35
what we really need to think about
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我們真正必須思考的問題是
04:37
is the essential nature of the activity in question
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這個活動的主要本質
04:41
and the qualities that are worth
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以及那值得尊重、欣賞、
04:44
honoring and admiring and recognizing.
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、與承認的品質
04:47
One of the reasons
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關於最好的長笛應該給予最優秀的長笛樂手
04:49
that the best flute players should get the best flutes
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的其中一個理由是
04:51
is that musical performance
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音樂表演
04:53
is not only to make the rest of us happy,
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並不只是爲了要使我們感到愉快而已,
04:55
but to honor
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它還得使那
04:57
and recognize
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最傑出的音樂家
04:59
the excellence
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獲得殊榮
05:01
of the best musicians.
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並認可其傑出表現
05:03
Now, flutes may seem ... the distribution of flutes
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現在,分配長笛似乎...
05:06
may seem a trivial case.
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看起來是個平凡的例子
05:09
Let's take a contemporary example
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讓我們舉一個關於分配正義的
05:11
of the dispute about justice.
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當代例子
05:14
It had to do with golf.
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這與高爾夫有關
05:16
Casey Martin -- a few years ago,
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幾年前,Casey Martin
05:18
Casey Martin --
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Casey Martin
05:20
did any of you hear about him?
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有人聽過他嗎?
05:22
He was a very good golfer,
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他是一個非常好的高爾夫球手
05:24
but he had a disability.
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但他是殘障人士
05:26
He had a bad leg, a circulatory problem,
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他的腳有問題,循環系統出了問題
05:29
that made it very painful
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這使得他在走路時
05:31
for him to walk the course.
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奇痛無比
05:34
In fact, it carried risk of injury.
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事實上,這也有運動傷害的危險
05:38
He asked the PGA,
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他問 PGA
05:40
the Professional Golfers' Association,
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美國職業高爾夫球協會
05:42
for permission to use a golf cart
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是否可以在比賽中
05:45
in the PGA tournaments.
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使用高爾夫球車
05:47
They said, "No.
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他們說:「不,
05:49
Now that would give you an unfair advantage."
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那會讓你得到不公平的優勢。」
05:51
He sued,
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他一狀告上法院
05:53
and his case went all the way
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他的案子一路上到
05:55
to the Supreme Court, believe it or not,
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美國最高法院,你們相信嗎
05:57
the case over the golf cart,
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這麼一件關於高爾夫球車的訴訟
06:00
because the law says
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因為法律上說
06:02
that the disabled
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我們必須考慮到殘障人士
06:04
must be accommodated,
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為他們提供妥善的輔助設施
06:07
provided the accommodation does not
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提供妥善的殘障設施 並不會
06:10
change the essential nature
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改變比賽
06:13
of the activity.
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或活動的本質
06:15
He says, "I'm a great golfer.
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他說:「我是一位優秀的高爾夫球選手
06:17
I want to compete.
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我要參加比賽
06:19
But I need a golf cart
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但我需要一輛高爾夫球車
06:21
to get from one hole to the next."
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讓我可以從這一球洞到下一球洞。」
06:23
Suppose you were
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假使你們是
06:25
on the Supreme Court.
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最高法院
06:27
Suppose you were deciding
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假設你們要審議
06:29
the justice of this case.
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這個涉及正義的案子
06:32
How many here would say
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有多少人會認為
06:34
that Casey Martin does have a right to use a golf cart?
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Casey Martin 有權使用高爾夫球車?
06:37
And how many say, no, he doesn't?
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另外,有多少人認為他沒有?
06:41
All right, let's take a poll, show of hands.
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好,讓我們做個調查,請舉手
06:43
How many would rule in favor of Casey Martin?
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有多少人站在 Casey Martin 這一方?
06:47
And how many would not? How many would say he doesn't?
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那有多少人不支持他呢?
06:50
All right, we have a good division of opinion here.
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很好,我們已有兩種不同的意見了
06:54
Someone who would not
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有人不給予
06:56
grant Casey Martin the right to a golf cart,
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Casey Martin 使用高爾夫球車的權利
06:58
what would be your reason?
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你們的理由是什麽?
07:00
Raise your hand, and we'll try to get you a microphone.
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請舉手,我們會試著把麥克風遞給你
07:02
What would be your reason?
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你的理由是什麽?
07:05
(Audience: It'd be an unfair advantage.)
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(觀眾:那會形成不公平的優勢)
07:07
MS: It would be an unfair advantage
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Michael Sandel:那會形成不公平的優勢
07:10
if he gets to ride in a golf cart.
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假使他可以得到高爾夫球車
07:12
All right, those of you,
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好的,在你們之中
07:14
I imagine most of you who would not give him the golf cart
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我想多數不願給他高爾夫球車的人
07:17
worry about an unfair advantage.
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大多擔心勝之不武
07:19
What about those of you who say
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那麼,在你們當中,那些認為
07:21
he should be given a golf cart?
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應當給予他高爾夫球車的人怎麼說?
07:23
How would you answer the objection?
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你們會如何表達反對立場?
07:25
Yes, all right.
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是,好的
07:27
Audience: The cart's not part of the game.
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觀眾:車子並不構成比賽的一部份
07:30
MS: What's your name? (Audience: Charlie.)
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Michael Sandel:你的名字是?(觀眾:Charlie)
07:33
MS: Charlie says --
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Michael Sandel:Charlie 說
07:36
We'll get Charlie a microphone in case someone wants to reply.
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我們會給 Charlie 一隻麥克風,當有人想要回答時
07:38
Tell us, Charlie,
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告訴我們,Charlie
07:40
why would you say he should be able to use a golf cart?
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你爲什麽說他應該獲得一輛高爾夫球車?
07:43
Charlie: The cart's not part of the game.
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Charlie:車子不是比賽的一部分
07:47
MS: But what about walking from hole to hole?
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Michael Sandel:那從一洞走到另一洞又怎麼說呢?
07:50
Charlie: It doesn't matter; it's not part of the game.
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Charlie:這與比賽無關,它不算比賽的一部份
07:53
MS: Walking the course is not part of the game of golf?
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Michael Sandel:在賽程中走路不算比賽的一部份?
07:57
Charlie: Not in my book, it isn't.
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Charlie:對我來說不是,它不是。
07:59
MS: All right. Stay there, Charlie.
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Michael Sandel:好,請留在那,Charlie
08:01
(Laughter)
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(笑聲)
08:03
Who has an answer for Charlie?
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誰想替 Charlie 回答?
08:06
All right, who has an answer for Charlie?
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好,有誰想替 Charlie 回答的?
08:08
What would you say?
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你會怎麼說?
08:10
Audience: The endurance element is a very important part of the game,
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觀眾:耐力是比賽中一個非常重要的部分,
08:13
walking all those holes.
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走完那些球洞
08:15
MS: Walking all those holes?
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Michael Sandel:走過所有那些洞?
08:17
That's part of the game of golf? (Audience: Absolutely.)
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那是高爾夫比賽的一部份?(觀眾:一點也不錯)
08:20
MS: What's your name? (Audience: Warren.)
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Michael Sandel:你的名字是?(觀眾:Warren)
08:22
MS: Warren.
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Michael Sandel:Warren
08:25
Charlie, what do you say to Warren?
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Charlie:你有什麽想跟 Warren 說?
08:29
Charley: I'll stick to my original thesis.
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Charlie:我堅持原來的論點
08:31
(Laughter)
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(笑聲)
08:37
MS: Warren, are you a golfer?
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Michael Sandel:Warren,你打高爾夫嗎?
08:39
Warren: I am not a golfer.
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Warren:我不打
08:41
Charley: And I am. (MS: Okay.)
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Charlie:但我打。(Michael Sandel:好的。)
08:43
(Laughter)
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(笑聲)
08:45
(Applause)
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(掌聲)
08:49
You know,
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你們知道
08:51
it's interesting.
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這很有趣
08:55
In the case, in the lower court,
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在這個案例中,在下級法院
08:57
they brought in golfing greats
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他們把偉大的高爾夫選手帶進
09:00
to testify on this very issue.
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這個特殊的案例中
09:04
Is walking the course essential to the game?
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步行在比賽中是必不可少的過程嗎?
09:07
And they brought in Jack Nicklaus and Arnold Palmer.
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於是他們找來 Jack Nicklaus 和 Arnold Palmer
09:10
And what do you suppose they all said?
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你們猜他們都怎麼說?
09:12
Yes. They agreed with Warren.
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是的,他們同意 Warren 的說法
09:15
They said, yes, walking the course
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他們說,是的,走完全程
09:17
is strenuous physical exercise.
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是費力的運動
09:19
The fatigue factor is an important part of golf.
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疲憊是高爾夫球賽中的重要一環
09:22
And so it would change
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所以讓他使用高爾夫球車
09:24
the fundamental nature of the game
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會改變
09:27
to give him the golf cart.
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比賽的根本性質
09:29
Now, notice,
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現在,請注意,
09:31
something interesting --
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這裡有件有趣的事
09:33
Well, I should tell you about the Supreme Court first.
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嗯,我應該先告訴你有關最高法院的事
09:35
The Supreme Court
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最高法院
09:37
decided.
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作了裁決
09:39
What do you suppose they said?
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你們認為他們怎麼說?
09:42
They said yes,
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他們說,是的,
09:44
that Casey Martin must be provided a golf cart.
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Casey Martin 必須獲得一輛高爾夫球車
09:47
Seven to two, they ruled.
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七比二,他們裁決。
09:50
What was interesting about their ruling
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有趣的是,關於他們的這項判決
09:54
and about the discussion we've just had
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以及關於我們剛剛的討論,
09:58
is that the discussion about
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那些有關
10:00
the right, the justice, of the matter
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權利與正義等問題
10:02
depended on
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都是建立於
10:04
figuring out what is
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我們對高爾夫球比賽
10:07
the essential nature of golf.
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的必要本質的認識,
10:10
And the Supreme Court justices
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而最高法院
10:12
wrestled with that question.
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審慎思量了那問題
10:14
And Justice Stevens, writing for the majority,
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Stevens 法官,寫給多數人
10:16
said he had read all about the history of golf,
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說他遍讀了高爾夫球的歷史,
10:21
and the essential point of the game
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而這項比賽的必要之處 在於
10:24
is to get very small ball from one place
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把一個非常小的球,從一個地方
10:26
into a hole
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推到另一個洞裡
10:28
in as few strokes as possible,
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盡可能地使用最少的稈數
10:31
and that walking was not essential, but incidental.
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而走路並不是必要的,反而僅只是次要的
10:33
Now, there were two dissenters,
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現在,有兩位持反對意見者
10:35
one of whom was Justice Scalia.
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一位是 Scalia 法官
10:40
He wouldn't have granted the cart,
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他不願賦予使用高爾夫球車的權利
10:43
and he had a very interesting dissent.
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他提出一個非常有趣的異議
10:45
It's interesting because
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有趣 是因為
10:47
he rejected the Aristotelian premise
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他否決了大多數人所持的
10:50
underlying the majority's opinion.
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亞理斯多德假設
10:52
He said it's not possible
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他說
10:55
to determine the essential nature
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要決定一項賽事的本質,比如高爾夫球賽
10:58
of a game like golf.
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是不可能的
11:00
Here's how he put it.
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以下是他的見解
11:02
"To say that something is essential
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「當談到某些事物是必要時
11:04
is ordinarily to say that it is necessary
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通常我們會說,它是在
11:06
to the achievement of a certain object.
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爲了要達到某種目標時,是必要的。
11:09
But since it is the very nature of a game
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但畢竟一項比賽的最終本質
11:11
to have no object except amusement,
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除了達到娛樂目的之外,並沒有任何其他目標
11:15
(Laughter)
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(笑聲)
11:19
that is, what distinguishes games
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也就是說,把比賽
11:21
from productive activity,
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與生產活動區別開來
11:23
(Laughter)
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(笑聲)
11:26
it is quite impossible to say
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我們不可能說
11:28
that any of a game's arbitrary rules
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任何一種比賽的任意規則
11:31
is essential."
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是必要的。」
11:33
So there you have Justice Scalia
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所以在這,你們有 Scalia 法官
11:35
taking on the Aristotelian premise
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採取亞理斯多德
11:38
of the majority's opinion.
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的多數人意見的假設
11:41
Justice Scalia's opinion
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根據兩個原因,
11:44
is questionable
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我們可以質疑
11:46
for two reasons.
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Scalia 法官的意見
11:48
First, no real sports fan would talk that way.
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第一,沒有哪個真正的球迷會那樣說話
11:51
(Laughter)
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(笑聲)
11:53
If we had thought that the rules
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如果我們想到
11:55
of the sports we care about
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我們所關心的比賽的規則
11:57
are merely arbitrary,
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只不過是任意性的,
11:59
rather than designed to call forth
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而非一種追求
12:02
the virtues and the excellences
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道德與卓越的設計
12:05
that we think are worthy of admiring,
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一種值得我們尊敬的事物
12:07
we wouldn't care about the outcome of the game.
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我們根本不會關心這項比賽的結果
12:10
It's also objectionable
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這也是第二個客觀的
12:13
on a second ground.
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的理由
12:15
On the face of it,
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面對它時
12:17
it seemed to be -- this debate about the golf cart --
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當面對這些高爾夫球車的辯論時
12:20
an argument about fairness,
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它看來似乎是一項關於公平的爭議
12:23
what's an unfair advantage.
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一項不平等的優勢
12:27
But if fairness were the only thing at stake,
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但,倘若公平性是唯一一項受到威脅的事物的話
12:30
there would have been an easy and obvious solution.
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解決辦法應該是再簡單明白不過
12:33
What would it be? (Audience: Let everyone use the cart.)
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那是什麽?(觀眾:讓每個人都有車)
12:35
Let everyone ride in a golf cart
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讓每個人都可乘坐高爾夫球車
12:38
if they want to.
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如果他們要的話
12:40
Then the fairness objection goes away.
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這麼一來,就可以消除那些關於公平性的反對聲浪了
12:43
But letting everyone ride in a cart
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然而,讓每個人乘坐高爾夫球車
12:46
would have been, I suspect,
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可能會,我懷疑,
12:48
more anathema
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可能會使美國高爾夫球公開賽
12:50
to the golfing greats
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與那些球星
12:52
and to the PGA,
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蒙受詛咒,
12:54
even than making an exception for Casey Martin.
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甚至如果為 Casey Martin 首開先例的話,其結果也有可能變得如此
12:56
Why?
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爲什麽?
12:58
Because what was at stake
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因為,在這高爾夫球車的爭議中
13:00
in the dispute over the golf cart
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所受到威脅的事物
13:03
was not only the essential nature of golf,
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並不只是高爾夫球的本質而已
13:06
but, relatedly, the question:
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它還涉及所謂運動員天賦的問題:
13:09
What abilities
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什麽樣的能力
13:12
are worthy
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是值得
13:14
of honor and recognition
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運動員的才華
13:16
as athletic talents?
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獲得崇敬與認可呢?
13:19
Let me put the point
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我盡可能地試著
13:21
as delicately as possible:
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細緻地鋪陳論點:
13:24
Golfers are a little sensitive
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高爾夫球選手們 多多少少
13:26
about the athletic status of their game.
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對於比賽的地位有些敏感。
13:29
(Laughter)
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(笑聲)
13:35
After all, there's no running or jumping,
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畢竟,這項比賽沒有跑步或跳躍,
13:38
and the ball stands still.
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而那顆球通常也靜止不動。
13:41
(Laughter)
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(笑聲)
13:44
So if golfing is the kind of game
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所以,如果高爾夫球是那種
13:47
that can be played while riding around in a golf cart,
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可以安坐於車上的比賽的話
13:50
it would be hard to confer
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這麼一來,人們就很難賦予
13:53
on the golfing greats
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那些高爾夫球巨星
13:55
the status that we confer,
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偉大崇高的地位了,
13:57
the honor and recognition
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也很難給予偉大球星
13:59
that goes to truly great athletes.
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榮耀與認可了。
14:03
That illustrates
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這說明了
14:06
that with golf,
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高爾夫球
14:09
as with flutes,
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如同長笛一般
14:11
it's hard to decide the question
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是很難界定
14:14
of what justice requires,
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其所需的正義,
14:17
without grappling with the question,
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當你們不解決如下問題時:
14:19
"What is the essential nature
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「什麽是這項活動的
14:21
of the activity in question,
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內在本質、
14:23
and what qualities,
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以及 什麽樣的品質、
14:26
what excellences
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什麼樣的卓越內涵
14:28
connected with that activity,
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關於這項活動
14:30
are worthy of honor and recognition?"
336
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是值得尊敬與認可的?」
14:34
Let's take a final example
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讓我們拿最後一個例子說明
14:36
that's prominent in contemporary political debate:
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當代著名的政治辯論:
14:39
same-sex marriage.
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同性婚姻
14:43
There are those who favor state recognition
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有些人認為,國家僅僅只能
14:46
only of traditional marriage
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承認傳統的婚姻
14:48
between one man and one woman,
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在男人與女人之間的婚姻;
14:51
and there are those who favor state recognition
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另外,也有些人希望,國家能承認
14:53
of same-sex marriage.
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同性婚姻
14:55
How many here
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這裡有多少人
14:57
favor the first policy:
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贊成第一項政策的:
14:59
the state should recognize traditional marriage only?
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國家只應承認傳統婚姻?
15:04
And how many favor the second, same-sex marriage?
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另外,有多少人贊同同性婚姻?
15:08
Now, put it this way:
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現在,這麼說好了,
15:11
What ways of thinking
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在我們既有的
15:13
about justice and morality
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涉及到正義與道德的這些爭議下
15:15
underlie the arguments we have
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關於婚姻,
15:17
over marriage?
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我們有什麽樣的思考方式?
15:19
The opponents of same-sex marriage say
354
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反對同性婚姻的人說
15:22
that the purpose of marriage,
355
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婚姻的目的
15:24
fundamentally, is procreation,
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基本上說來,是爲了生育,
15:26
and that's what's worthy of honoring
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而那是值得尊敬、
15:28
and recognizing and encouraging.
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認可、與鼓勵的;
15:31
And the defenders of same-sex marriage say no,
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然而,捍衛同性婚姻的人說:不,
15:34
procreation is not the only purpose of marriage;
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生育並不是婚姻的唯一目的,
15:38
what about a lifelong, mutual, loving commitment?
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那一個終身的、相互的、愛的承諾又如何呢?
15:41
That's really what marriage is about.
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那的確與婚姻息息相關啊。
15:45
So with flutes, with golf carts,
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因此,長笛、高爾夫球車、
15:48
and even with a fiercely contested question
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甚至如此激烈爭辯的議題
15:51
like same-sex marriage,
365
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像同性婚姻
15:54
Aristotle has a point.
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亞理斯多德提及了一個重點
15:57
Very hard to argue about justice
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倘若我們首先沒有探討
15:59
without first arguing
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社會制度的目的、
16:02
about the purpose of social institutions
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與什麼樣的品質是值得
16:05
and about what qualities are worthy
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尊敬與認可的話,
16:07
of honor and recognition.
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要爭辯何謂正義是極為困難的。
16:10
So let's step back from these cases
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因此,讓我們從這些案件回過頭來
16:13
and see how they shed light
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看看它們如何向我們提供一種方式
16:16
on the way we might improve, elevate,
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使我們藉此得以會進步、提高
16:19
the terms of political discourse
375
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在美國的
16:22
in the United States,
376
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政治論述的語彙
16:24
and for that matter, around the world.
377
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以及世界各地關於這方面的政治語言方式,
16:27
There is a tendency to think
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倘若我們在政治中
16:29
that if we engage too directly
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愈是直接地涉入倫理議題,
16:32
with moral questions in politics,
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人們會傾向於認為
16:34
that's a recipe for disagreement,
381
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那是解決分歧的藥方,
16:36
and for that matter, a recipe for
382
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從那方面說來,這也是一個
16:38
intolerance and coercion.
383
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解決不寬容與強制脅迫的藥方。
16:40
So better to shy away from,
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因此,我們不如迴避、
16:42
to ignore,
385
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略過
16:44
the moral and the religious convictions
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那些人們帶進公民生活中
16:46
that people bring to civic life.
387
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的宗教與倫理衝突
16:48
It seems to me that our discussion
388
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在我看來,我們的討論
16:51
reflects the opposite,
389
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反映了相反的一面,
16:53
that a better way
390
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一個達成相互尊重
16:56
to mutual respect
391
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的更好方式是
16:58
is to engage directly
392
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直接地涉入
17:00
with the moral convictions
393
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公民帶入公共生活中的
17:02
citizens bring to public life,
394
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的倫理衝突
17:05
rather than to require
395
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而不是要求
17:07
that people leave their deepest moral convictions
396
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人們在進入政治以前,
17:10
outside politics
397
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把他們最深的倫理衝突
17:12
before they enter.
398
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留在政治之外。
17:14
That, it seems to me, is a way
399
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在我看來,那是一個
17:16
to begin to restore
400
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開始重建
17:18
the art of democratic argument.
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民主辯論技藝的方法
17:20
Thank you very much.
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謝謝大家
17:22
(Applause)
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(掌聲)
17:25
Thank you.
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謝謝
17:27
(Applause)
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(掌聲)
17:30
Thank you.
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謝謝
17:32
(Applause)
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(掌聲)
17:34
Thank you very much.
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非常感謝
17:36
Thanks. Thank you.
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謝謝,謝謝各位
17:39
Chris.
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Chris
17:41
Thanks, Chris.
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謝謝,Chris
17:44
Chris Anderson: From flutes to golf courses
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Chris Anderson:從長笛、高爾夫球場
17:46
to same-sex marriage --
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到同性婚姻
17:48
that was a genius link.
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實在是非常巧妙的連結
17:50
Now look, you're a pioneer of open education.
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你的確是開放教育的先驅
17:53
Your lecture series was one of the first to do it big.
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你的系列課堂是開創者之一
17:55
What's your vision for the next phase of this?
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你下一個階段的計劃是什麽?
17:58
MS: Well, I think that it is possible.
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Michael Sandel:嗯,我想這是可能的
18:01
In the classroom, we have arguments
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在這個教室裡,我們有
18:04
on some of the most fiercely held
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學生們曾經討論過的
18:07
moral convictions that students have
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關於道德衝突的最激烈辯論
18:09
about big public questions.
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涉及了許多大型的公眾議題
18:11
And I think we can do that in public life more generally.
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我想我們可以更廣泛地 把它置入於公眾生活
18:14
And so my real dream would be
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所以,我真正的夢想是
18:16
to take the public television series
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創辦一個我們曾有過的課堂辯論
18:18
that we've created of the course --
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在電視節目之中
18:20
it's available now, online,
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現在,透過網絡 這已經是可行的了
18:22
free for everyone anywhere in the world --
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任何人在世界每個角落都可以進入
18:24
and to see whether we can partner with institutions,
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看看我們是否可以與一些機構合作
18:27
at universities in China, in India,
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比如在中國、印度、
18:29
in Africa, around the world,
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非洲、和世界各地的大學
18:31
to try to promote
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試著提升
18:34
civic education
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公民教育
18:36
and also a richer kind
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與更豐富的
18:38
of democratic debate.
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民主辯論
18:41
CA: So you picture, at some point,
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Chris Anderson:所以你在某種程度上,想像了
18:43
live, in real time,
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一個現場的、即時的
18:45
you could have this kind of conversation, inviting questions,
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真實對談,徵求問題
18:48
but with people from China and India joining in?
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但要求中國和印度的人們參與?
18:51
MS: Right. We did a little bit of it here
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Michael Sandel:我們在這裡做了一點
18:53
with 1,500 people in Long Beach,
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在 Long Beach 那兒有 1500 人參與
18:55
and we do it in a classroom at Harvard
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另外,我們也在哈佛大學的講堂上
18:58
with about 1,000 students.
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與 1000 位學生進行討論。
19:00
Wouldn't it be interesting
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這不是很有趣嗎?
19:02
to take this way
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以這種
19:05
of thinking and arguing,
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思考與辯論的方式
19:07
engaging seriously with big moral questions,
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深刻地討論宏大的倫理議題,
19:10
exploring cultural differences
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發掘文化差異
19:12
and connect through a live video hookup,
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並且透過現場直播
19:16
students in Beijing and Mumbai
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使得在北京、孟買、
19:18
and in Cambridge, Massachusetts
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劍橋、麻薩諸塞州的學生
19:20
and create a global classroom.
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都能一起創造全球教室
19:22
That's what I would love to do.
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那就是我想做的事。
19:24
(Applause)
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(掌聲)
19:28
CA: So, I would imagine
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Chris Anderson:所以,我猜想
19:30
that there are a lot of people who would love to join you in that endeavor.
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會有許多人願意加入你的努力的
19:33
Michael Sandel. Thank you so much. (MS: Thanks so much.)
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Michael Sandel,非常謝謝你。(MS:謝謝各位。)
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