Depression, the secret we share | Andrew Solomon

6,106,429 views ・ 2013-12-18

TED


請雙擊下方英文字幕播放視頻。

譯者: Shiwen He 審譯者: Marssi Draw
00:15
"I felt a Funeral, in my Brain,
0
15952
3862
「在我的腦海中,有一場葬禮,
00:19
and Mourners to and fro
1
19838
2378
哀悼者來來去去,
00:22
kept treading -- treading -- till [it seemed]
2
22240
2803
不停踩踏,踩踏,直到我感覺
感官衝破了覺知。
00:25
that Sense was breaking through --
3
25067
2319
00:27
And when they all were seated,
4
27836
1745
當眾人全都就座,
00:29
a Service, like a Drum --
5
29605
1974
儀式開始,像擊鼓般,
00:31
kept beating -- beating -- till I [thought]
6
31603
3452
不斷敲擊、敲擊,直到感覺
我的意識就此麻木。
00:35
my Mind was going numb --
7
35079
1766
00:37
And then I heard them lift a Box and creak across my Soul
8
37831
4139
此刻我聽見他們抬起棺木,
嘰嘎聲穿透我的魂。
00:41
with those same Boots of Lead, again,
9
41994
3035
鉛靴的踏步聲再度揚起,
00:45
then Space -- began to toll,
10
45053
2993
伴隨喪鐘迴盪,
00:48
As [all] the Heavens were a Bell, and Being, [but] an Ear,
11
48070
4107
彷彿天空是具大鐘,
只剩下一只耳朵存在,
00:52
and I, and Silence, some strange Race,
12
52201
3059
而我與寂靜間,一場微妙的追逐,
00:55
wrecked, solitary, here --
13
55284
2580
獨自在此破碎。
00:58
[And] then a Plank in Reason, broke,
14
58493
3153
就在此時,理性忽然斷了弦,
01:01
and I fell down and down --
15
61670
3317
我不斷墜落,
01:05
and hit a World, at every plunge,
16
65011
2651
每次墜落都撞上一個世界,
01:07
and Finished knowing -- then --"
17
67686
2559
最終豁然開朗。 」
01:12
We know depression through metaphors.
18
72198
2814
我們透過文學隱喻認識了憂鬱。
01:15
Emily Dickinson was able to convey it in language,
19
75680
3685
艾蜜莉.狄更生(十九世紀美國詩人) 用詩歌描寫它,
01:19
Goya in an image.
20
79389
2315
哥雅(西班牙畫家)用繪畫詮釋,
01:22
Half the purpose of art is to describe such iconic states.
21
82238
4595
半數藝術品的目的
是為了描述這象徵性的狀態。
01:27
As for me, I had always thought myself tough,
22
87997
3854
對我而言,我總把自己看做一名鬥士,
01:31
one of the people who could survive
23
91875
1802
是那種即使被送往集中營
01:33
if I'd been sent to a concentration camp.
24
93701
2323
也可以存活下來的人。
01:36
In 1991, I had a series of losses.
25
96614
2665
1991 年,我經歷了一連串的不幸。
01:39
My mother died,
26
99676
1498
我的母親去世,
01:41
a relationship I'd been in ended,
27
101198
2102
戀情終結,
01:43
I moved back to the United States from some years abroad,
28
103324
3920
多年居住外國之後,
我返回了美國。
01:47
and I got through all of those experiences intact.
29
107268
2714
我安然無恙地經歷這一切。
01:50
But in 1994, three years later,
30
110617
2899
但是到了 1994 年,即三年之後,
01:53
I found myself losing interest in almost everything.
31
113540
3742
我發現自己對所有的事情都失去了興趣。
任何我曾經喜歡做的事情,
01:58
I didn't want to do any of the things I had previously wanted to do,
32
118059
3876
我都不願意做。
02:01
and I didn't know why.
33
121959
1460
對此我毫無頭緒。
02:03
The opposite of depression is not happiness, but vitality.
34
123987
4561
憂鬱的反面
不是快樂,而是活力。
正是這種活力,
02:09
And it was vitality
35
129127
1444
02:10
that seemed to seep away from me in that moment.
36
130595
2963
在那時似乎從我體內一點一點地消失。
02:14
Everything there was to do seemed like too much work.
37
134231
3677
任何需要做的事情
都變得困難無比。
02:18
I would come home
38
138597
1437
我回到家裡,
02:20
and I would see the red light flashing on my answering machine,
39
140058
3328
看到答錄機上閃爍跳躍的紅燈,
02:23
and instead of being thrilled to hear from my friends,
40
143410
2540
我非但不會因為有朋友的音訊而感到興奮。
02:25
I would think,
41
145974
1189
我會想著:
02:27
"What a lot of people that is to have to call back."
42
147187
2595
「怎麼有這麼多人需要我回覆電話!」
02:30
Or I would decide I should have lunch,
43
150368
2562
又比如,我知道自己該吃午餐了。
02:32
and then I would think, but I'd have to get the food out
44
152954
2737
我就會想,我需要把食物取出來,
02:35
and put it on a plate
45
155715
1762
放在盤子上,
02:37
and cut it up and chew it and swallow it,
46
157501
3864
切開它們,嚼碎它們再嚥下去。
02:41
and it felt to me like the Stations of the Cross.
47
161389
3334
這對我就像耶穌受難一樣難熬。
02:45
And one of the things that often gets lost in discussions of depression
48
165286
4133
有關憂鬱的討論中,
有一點經常讓人困惑,
02:49
is that you know it's ridiculous.
49
169443
2058
那就是你明白這一切都很荒謬。
02:51
You know it's ridiculous while you're experiencing it.
50
171801
2943
當你經歷這一切的時候, 你知道這很荒謬。
02:54
You know that most people manage
51
174768
1889
你知道大多數人能夠
02:56
to listen to their messages and eat lunch
52
176681
2290
聽他們的電話留言、吃午飯、
02:58
and organize themselves to take a shower
53
178995
1906
打點好自己、沖個澡,
03:00
and go out the front door
54
180925
1218
然後走出大門。
03:02
and that it's not a big deal,
55
182167
1628
這些事無關緊要,
03:03
and yet you are nonetheless in its grip
56
183819
3142
但你卻依然深陷其中,
03:06
and you are unable to figure out any way around it.
57
186985
3437
你無法找到逃離的方式。
03:10
And so I began to feel myself doing less
58
190990
4222
於是我發現自己做的事越來越少,
03:15
and thinking less
59
195236
2286
思考愈來愈少,
03:17
and feeling less.
60
197546
1315
感覺越來越少,
03:19
It was a kind of nullity.
61
199829
1738
處在一種虛無狀態中。
03:22
And then the anxiety set in.
62
202049
1995
這時焦慮出現了。
03:24
If you told me that I'd have to be depressed for the next month,
63
204567
3692
如果你告訴我,
我會在下個月一直憂鬱,
03:28
I would say, "As long I know it'll be over in November, I can do it."
64
208283
3239
我會說:「只要我知道, 憂鬱會在 11 月消失,我就能挺過去。」
03:31
But if you said to me,
65
211546
1246
然而如果你這樣說:
03:32
"You have to have acute anxiety for the next month,"
66
212816
3313
「你會在下個月嚴重焦慮。」
我寧願割腕也不願意承受。
03:36
I would rather slit my wrist than go through it.
67
216153
2319
03:38
It was the feeling all the time
68
218496
1558
這是一種持續的感受,
03:40
like that feeling you have if you're walking
69
220078
2204
就好像你走在路上,
03:42
and you slip or trip and the ground is rushing up at you,
70
222306
3521
你跌倒了或者絆倒了,
地面猛然衝向你。
03:45
but instead of lasting half a second, the way that does,
71
225851
2712
但是這感覺不是只有半秒,
03:48
it lasted for six months.
72
228587
1881
這感覺要持續六個月。
03:50
It's a sensation of being afraid all the time
73
230492
2929
這是一種無時無刻感到害怕,
03:53
but not even knowing what it is that you're afraid of.
74
233445
2985
卻不知道你在害怕什麼的感覺。
03:57
And it was at that point that I began to think
75
237057
2611
那一刻我開始想,
03:59
that it was just too painful to be alive,
76
239692
3760
活著太痛苦了。
04:03
and that the only reason not to kill oneself
77
243476
2560
人不會自殺的唯一理由,
04:06
was so as not to hurt other people.
78
246060
2695
就是不想傷害旁人。
04:09
And finally one day, I woke up
79
249295
2881
終於有一天,我醒來,
04:12
and I thought perhaps I'd had a stroke,
80
252200
2197
我想我可能中風了。
04:14
because I lay in bed completely frozen,
81
254421
2494
因為我躺在床上,渾身僵硬。
04:16
looking at the telephone, thinking,
82
256939
1925
我看著電話,心想:
04:18
"Something is wrong and I should call for help,"
83
258888
3539
「出事了,我應該打電話求救。」
04:22
and I couldn't reach out my arm
84
262451
1711
我卻無法伸出胳膊,
04:24
and pick up the phone and dial.
85
264186
2242
無法拿起電話撥號,
04:26
And finally, after four full hours of my lying and staring at it,
86
266801
4051
終於,在我躺著盯著電話 整整四個小時之後,
04:30
the phone rang,
87
270876
1264
電話響了。
04:32
and somehow I managed to pick it up,
88
272164
2379
不知怎麼我拿起了聽筒,
04:34
and it was my father, and I said,
89
274567
2928
那是我父親來電。
我說:「我麻煩大了,
04:37
"I'm in serious trouble. We need to do something."
90
277519
3446
我們必須做點什麼。 」
04:41
The next day I started with the medications and the therapy.
91
281528
4691
第二天我開始接受藥物治療
和心理治療。
04:47
And I also started reckoning with this terrible question:
92
287352
4203
並且我開始思索
這個可怕的問題:
04:51
If I'm not the tough person
93
291579
2104
如果我不是個堅強的人,
04:53
who could have made it through a concentration camp,
94
293707
2500
不是那種可以在集中營裡存活的人,
04:56
then who am I?
95
296231
1488
那麼我是誰?
04:57
And if I have to take medication,
96
297743
1861
如果我必須服用藥物,
04:59
is that medication making me more fully myself,
97
299628
3913
那麼藥物是讓我變得更像我自己,
05:03
or is it making me someone else?
98
303565
2218
還是讓我變成了別人?
05:05
And how do I feel about it if it's making me someone else?
99
305807
3460
我要如何知道
藥物是否讓我變成了別人呢?
在這場戰鬥中我有兩個優勢:
05:10
I had two advantages as I went into the fight.
100
310101
2904
05:13
The first is that I knew that, objectively speaking,
101
313585
2671
第一,我很清楚,客觀地說,
05:16
I had a nice life,
102
316280
1597
我有很好的生活。
05:17
and that if I could only get well,
103
317901
1861
一旦我好起來,
05:19
there was something at the other end that was worth living for.
104
319786
3200
還會有一些東西
值得我去追求。
05:23
And the other was that I had access to good treatment.
105
323010
2817
另外一點是我能接受很好的治療。
05:26
But I nonetheless emerged and relapsed,
106
326343
3449
然而我卻反覆發作,
05:29
and emerged and relapsed,
107
329816
2511
好轉又發作,
05:32
and emerged and relapsed,
108
332351
2994
又一次好轉,再發作。
05:35
and finally understood
109
335369
1940
終於我明白,
05:37
I would have to be on medication and in therapy forever.
110
337333
3921
自己必須一輩子
服藥和治療。
05:41
And I thought,
111
341769
1167
於是我想:「但是這到底是化學問題
05:42
"But is it a chemical problem or a psychological problem?
112
342960
2786
還是心理問題?
05:45
And does it need a chemical cure or a philosophical cure?"
113
345770
3933
是需要化學療法還是哲學療法?」
05:49
And I couldn't figure out which it was.
114
349727
2127
我想不出是哪一種。
05:51
And then I understood that actually,
115
351878
2100
接著我懂了,
事實上,我們對這兩個領域的了解
05:54
we aren't advanced enough in either area for it to explain things fully.
116
354002
3987
都不足以完全解釋真相。
05:58
The chemical cure and the psychological cure
117
358013
3327
化學療法和心理療法都有
06:01
both have a role to play,
118
361364
1674
各自的作用。
06:03
and I also figured out that depression was something
119
363062
3974
同時我明白了憂鬱是一種
深深根植於我們體內的東西。
06:07
that was braided so deep into us
120
367060
2224
06:09
that there was no separating it from our character and personality.
121
369308
3688
我們無法從性格和個性中
將憂鬱剝離開來。
06:13
I want to say that the treatments we have for depression are appalling.
122
373552
4462
我想說我們對憂鬱的治療
方法太過恐怖。
這些方法不太有效,
06:18
They're not very effective.
123
378038
1603
06:19
They're extremely costly.
124
379958
1770
而且代價高昂,
06:21
They come with innumerable side effects.
125
381752
2497
還帶來無數副作用,
06:24
They're a disaster.
126
384273
1437
簡直就是場災難。
不過我很慶幸自己活在現代,
06:26
But I am so grateful that I live now and not 50 years ago,
127
386027
4667
而不是 50 年前,
06:30
when there would have been almost nothing to be done.
128
390718
2920
那時候幾乎沒有任何
治療的辦法。
06:33
I hope that 50 years hence,
129
393662
2383
我想 50 年以後,
06:36
people will hear about my treatments
130
396069
2022
人們聽說我的治療方法,
會驚訝於居然有人能忍受
06:38
and be appalled that anyone endured such primitive science.
131
398115
3668
如此原始粗糙的科學。
06:42
Depression is the flaw in love.
132
402885
3242
憂鬱是愛的缺陷。
06:47
If you were married to someone and thought,
133
407441
3117
如果你將要和另一半結婚,然後想:
06:50
"Well, if my wife dies, I'll find another one,"
134
410582
3710
「好吧,如果我妻子死了,我會再找一個。」
06:54
it wouldn't be love as we know it.
135
414316
2249
這不是我們熟知的愛情。
06:57
There's no such thing as love without the anticipation of loss,
136
417364
4567
沒有這樣一種愛情,
只有獲取幸福卻不用體驗失去。
07:01
and that specter of despair can be the engine of intimacy.
137
421955
5556
這種絕望的幽靈,
會是親密關係的動力。
07:08
There are three things people tend to confuse:
138
428204
2831
人們容易混淆三件事:
07:11
depression, grief and sadness.
139
431059
3089
憂鬱,悲傷和難過。
07:14
Grief is explicitly reactive.
140
434966
3339
悲傷是明確的反應。
07:18
If you have a loss and you feel incredibly unhappy,
141
438329
2881
如果你因為損失而感到非常不開心,
07:21
and then, six months later,
142
441234
1675
那麼六個月之後,
07:22
you are still deeply sad, but you're functioning a little better,
143
442933
3085
你仍然很難過,但日常作息好轉了一些。
這大概就是悲傷。
07:26
it's probably grief,
144
446042
1785
07:27
and it will probably ultimately resolve itself in some measure.
145
447851
3735
它可能最終在一定程度上
能自行修復。
07:31
If you experience a catastrophic loss,
146
451610
2805
如果你經歷了一次災難性的打擊,
07:34
and you feel terrible,
147
454439
1302
你感覺非常糟糕,
07:35
and six months later you can barely function at all,
148
455765
2789
六個月之後依然無法正常生活,
07:38
then it's probably a depression that was triggered
149
458578
2514
那麼可能就是一種憂鬱
被災難性的情形所觸發了。
07:41
by the catastrophic circumstances.
150
461116
2183
07:43
The trajectory tells us a great deal.
151
463648
3170
這個分析軌跡告訴我們很多訊息。
07:47
People think of depression as being just sadness.
152
467196
3360
人們認為憂鬱只是難過。
07:50
It's much, much too much sadness,
153
470580
2171
只是太多太多的難過,
07:52
much too much grief
154
472775
1751
太多太多的悲傷,
07:54
at far too slight a cause.
155
474550
2109
因為微不足道的事情而起。
07:57
As I set out to understand depression,
156
477470
2785
當我開始了解憂鬱,
08:00
and to interview people who had experienced it,
157
480279
2647
採訪了經歷過憂鬱的人們,
08:02
I found that there were people who seemed, on the surface,
158
482950
3793
我發現有些人
表面上看起來
08:06
to have what sounded like relatively mild depression
159
486767
3213
似乎有輕微的憂鬱,
他們卻因此完全喪失了行為能力。
08:10
who were nonetheless utterly disabled by it.
160
490004
2738
08:13
And there were other people who had what sounded
161
493297
2413
另外一些人,
08:15
as they described it like terribly severe depression
162
495734
3062
根據他們的描述,
有非常嚴重的憂鬱,
08:18
who nonetheless had good lives
163
498820
1740
卻能在憂鬱的間隙
08:20
in the interstices between their depressive episodes.
164
500584
2706
過著不錯的生活。
08:23
And I set out to find out what it is that causes some people
165
503885
3965
我開始著手研究,
為什麼有些人
08:27
to be more resilient than other people.
166
507874
2229
比另一些人有更好的復元能力。
08:30
What are the mechanisms that allow people to survive?
167
510127
3216
是什麼機制
讓人得以倖存?
08:33
And I went out and I interviewed person after person
168
513652
3198
我出去採訪了一個又一個
08:36
who was suffering with depression.
169
516874
1976
因憂鬱而受苦的人。
08:38
One of the first people I interviewed
170
518874
2191
我最早採訪的某個人
將憂鬱描述為
08:41
described depression as a slower way of being dead,
171
521089
4854
一種緩慢的死亡方式。
08:45
and that was a good thing for me to hear early on
172
525967
2334
最初就聽到這說法對我來說是好事,
08:48
because it reminded me that that slow way of being dead
173
528325
3107
因為它提醒了我
緩慢的死亡
08:51
can lead to actual deadness,
174
531456
2280
可以通往真正的死亡。
08:53
that this is a serious business.
175
533760
1957
這可是正經話。
08:55
It's the leading disability worldwide,
176
535741
2389
憂鬱是世界上名列前茅的身心障礙,
08:58
and people die of it every day.
177
538154
2082
每天都有人因此喪生。
09:01
One of the people I talked to when I was trying to understand this
178
541184
3719
當我試著了解這些的時候,
我的一位採訪對象,
09:04
was a beloved friend who I had known for many years,
179
544927
3861
也是我的摯友,
我與她相識多年。
09:08
and who had had a psychotic episode in her freshman year of college,
180
548812
4453
在她大一的時候,
有過一次精神病發作,
09:13
and then plummeted into a horrific depression.
181
553289
2802
之後她陷入了可怕的憂鬱。
09:16
She had bipolar illness,
182
556115
1639
她患有雙相障礙,
09:17
or manic depression, as it was then known.
183
557778
2487
當時也稱為躁鬱症。
09:20
And then she did very well for many years on lithium,
184
560289
3785
經過多年的鋰治療,
她恢復得不錯。
於是到最後,
09:24
and then eventually, she was taken off her lithium
185
564098
3149
她停止了化學治療,
09:27
to see how she would do without it,
186
567271
1811
看看自己不治療能撐多久。
09:29
and she had another psychosis,
187
569106
1951
然而她的精神病復發,
09:31
and then plunged into the worst depression that I had ever seen
188
571081
4360
接著陷入了我所見過
最嚴重的憂鬱。
09:35
in which she sat in her parents' apartment,
189
575465
2817
她坐在父母的公寓裡,
09:38
more or less catatonic, essentially without moving,
190
578306
3272
多少有點緊張型精神分裂症, 幾乎一動也不動,
09:41
day after day after day.
191
581602
1913
就這樣過了一天又一天。
09:43
And when I interviewed her about that experience some years later --
192
583943
3484
多年後我採訪她,談起了這段經歷──
09:47
she's a poet and psychotherapist named Maggie Robbins --
193
587451
3101
她叫瑪姬.羅賓 (Maggie Robbins) , 是一位詩人和精神治療師──
09:50
when I interviewed her, she said,
194
590576
3046
當我採訪她時,她說:
09:53
"I was singing 'Where Have All The Flowers Gone,'
195
593646
3519
「 當時我一遍一遍地唱著 《花兒都去哪兒了》,
09:57
over and over, to occupy my mind.
196
597189
2897
滿腦子都是這首歌。
10:00
I was singing to blot out the things my mind was saying,
197
600555
2796
我唱著歌來清除腦子裡的那個聲音,
10:03
which were, 'You are nothing. You are nobody.
198
603375
4760
那個聲音說:『你什麼都不是,你一文不名。
你不配活著。』
10:08
You don't even deserve to live.'
199
608159
1931
10:10
And that was when I really started thinking
200
610691
2406
從那一刻起,我真的開始想要
殺死我自己。 」
10:13
about killing myself."
201
613121
1354
10:15
You don't think in depression that you've put on a gray veil
202
615193
3910
你憂鬱的時候,並不像是
你戴上了一個灰色面紗,
10:19
and are seeing the world through the haze of a bad mood.
203
619127
3364
透過沮喪情緒的霧霾
來看待這個世界。
10:23
You think that the veil has been taken away,
204
623001
2990
而是你認為那層快樂的面紗
已經被拿走,
10:26
the veil of happiness,
205
626015
1604
10:27
and that now you're seeing truly.
206
627643
1937
所以現在你面對的是赤裸裸的現實。
10:30
It's easier to help schizophrenics who perceive
207
630247
2760
幫助精神分裂症患者相對容易一些,
10:33
that there's something foreign inside of them that needs to be exorcised,
208
633031
3974
他們知道身體裡有異物,
需要把它們弄出去。
10:37
but it's difficult with depressives,
209
637029
2326
而對於憂鬱症患者就困難多了,
10:39
because we believe we are seeing the truth.
210
639379
2802
因為我們相信自己看到的是現實。
10:43
But the truth lies.
211
643040
1545
但是事實會說謊。
10:45
I became obsessed with that sentence:
212
645987
1974
我為這句話著迷:
10:47
"But the truth lies."
213
647985
2132
「事實會說謊。」
10:50
And I discovered, as I talked to depressive people,
214
650435
2440
據我觀察,當我和憂鬱症患者交談時,
10:52
that they have many delusional perceptions.
215
652899
2572
他們有許多妄想的念頭。
10:55
People will say, "No one loves me."
216
655815
1738
他們會說:「沒人愛我。」
10:57
And you say, "I love you,
217
657577
1212
你會說:「我愛你,
10:58
your wife loves you, your mother loves you."
218
658813
2498
你的妻子愛你,你的媽媽愛你。」
11:01
You can answer that one pretty readily, at least for most people.
219
661335
3361
你可以馬上說出這個答案,
至少大多數人是這樣。
但是憂鬱症患者還會說:
11:05
But people who are depressed will also say,
220
665124
2166
11:07
"No matter what we do, we're all just going to die in the end."
221
667314
4047
「不管我們做什麼,
最終,我們都會死去。」
11:11
Or they'll say, "There can be no true communion
222
671385
2229
或者他們會說:「人與人之間
11:13
between two human beings.
223
673638
1362
不可能有真正的交流。
11:15
Each of us is trapped in his own body."
224
675024
2384
我們每個人都被困在自己的身體裡。」
11:17
To which you have to say,
225
677805
1620
關於這點你會反駁說:
11:19
"That's true,
226
679449
1479
「這沒錯,
11:20
but I think we should focus right now on what to have for breakfast."
227
680952
3508
但是我認為,我們當下應該考慮的是
早飯吃什麼。」
11:24
(Laughter)
228
684484
2161
(笑聲)
11:26
A lot of the time,
229
686669
1645
大多數時候,
11:28
what they are expressing is not illness, but insight,
230
688338
2974
他們所表現出來的不是病症,而是思想偏執。
11:31
and one comes to think what's really extraordinary
231
691336
2531
他們對這些問題特別在意,
11:33
is that most of us know about those existential questions
232
693891
3132
而大多數人都知道這些存在主義問題,
但是我們不會太困擾。
11:37
and they don't distract us very much.
233
697047
2044
11:39
There was a study I particularly liked
234
699428
1822
我特別喜歡這個研究:
11:41
in which a group of depressed and a group of non-depressed people
235
701274
3743
一群憂鬱症患者
和一群非憂鬱症患者
被要求玩一個小時的電玩。
11:45
were asked to play a video game for an hour,
236
705041
2724
11:47
and at the end of the hour,
237
707789
1620
一小時後問他們,
11:49
they were asked how many little monsters they thought they had killed.
238
709433
3610
他們認為自己
殺死了多少只小怪獸。
憂鬱症組的回答通常是準確的,
11:53
The depressive group was usually accurate to within about 10 percent,
239
713067
3985
誤差在 10% 以內。
11:57
and the non-depressed people
240
717076
1571
而非憂鬱症組的人,
11:58
guessed between 15 and 20 times as many little monsters --
241
718671
4454
回答打死小怪獸的數量
比實際數目
12:03
(Laughter)
242
723149
1151
多了 15 到 20 倍 。 ──(笑聲)──
12:04
as they had actually killed.
243
724324
1752
12:07
A lot of people said, when I chose to write about my depression,
244
727945
3216
當我選擇寫下我自己的憂鬱經歷,很多人說
12:11
that it must be very difficult to be out of that closet,
245
731185
3465
要揭開這個秘密,讓別人知道,
一定非常困難。
12:14
to have people know.
246
734674
1309
他們說:「人們會用不同的口吻和你說話嗎?」
12:16
They said, "Do people talk to you differently?"
247
736007
2269
12:18
I said, "Yes, people talk to me differently.
248
738300
2079
我回答:「是的,人們用不一樣的語氣和我說話。
12:20
They talk to me differently insofar
249
740403
1762
這種不一樣表現在
12:22
as they start telling me about their experience,
250
742189
2667
他們會開始和我談自己的經歷,
12:24
or their sister's experience,
251
744880
1811
或者他們姐妹的經歷,
12:26
or their friend's experience.
252
746715
1641
或者他們朋友的經歷。
12:28
Things are different because now I know
253
748729
2198
事情和以前有所不同,因為現在我知道
12:30
that depression is the family secret that everyone has.
254
750951
4105
憂鬱是每個家庭裡的秘密。
12:35
I went a few years ago to a conference,
255
755715
3626
幾年前我參加一個會議,
12:39
and on Friday of the three-day conference,
256
759365
2431
會議有三天,這天是週五。
12:41
one of the participants took me aside, and she said,
257
761820
3005
一名與會者把我拉到一旁,對我說:
12:44
"I suffer from depression and I'm a little embarrassed about it,
258
764849
6249
「我有憂鬱症,
我覺得有點不好意思,
但是我一直在服這種藥,
12:51
but I've been taking this medication,
259
771122
1842
12:52
and I just wanted to ask you what you think?"
260
772988
3114
我只想問問你的意見?」
於是我盡我所能給了她一些建議。
12:56
And so I did my best to give her such advice as I could.
261
776126
2620
12:58
And then she said, "You know, my husband would never understand this.
262
778770
4487
然後她說:「你知道,
我丈夫永遠不會理解這些。
13:03
He's really the kind of guy to whom this wouldn't make any sense,
263
783281
3268
他就是那種認為這些都是胡說八道的人,
所以我想,嗯,希望我們的談話能保密。」
13:06
so, you know, it's just between us."
264
786573
2124
13:08
And I said, "Yes, that's fine."
265
788721
1552
我回答:「當然沒問題。」
13:10
On Sunday of the same conference,
266
790733
1859
週日在同一個會議上,
13:12
her husband took me aside,
267
792616
1876
她的丈夫把我拉到一邊,
13:14
(Laughter)
268
794516
1314
13:15
and he said, "My wife wouldn't think
269
795854
1761
他說:「我妻子如果知道這事,
13:17
that I was really much of a guy if she knew this,
270
797639
2311
她就不會覺得我是個男子漢,
13:19
but I've been dealing with this depression and I'm taking some medication,
271
799974
3758
但是我一直在對抗憂鬱,
而且在服用藥物,
13:23
and I wondered what you think?"
272
803756
2425
我想能否聽聽你的建議?」
13:26
They were hiding the same medication
273
806205
2290
他們兩個
把同樣的藥物藏在
13:28
in two different places in the same bedroom.
274
808519
3375
臥室不同的地方。
13:31
(Laughter)
275
811918
1198
於是我對他說,
13:33
And I said that I thought communication within the marriage
276
813140
2938
我認為婚姻中的溝通
13:36
might be triggering some of their problems.
277
816102
2048
可能引起他們的某些問題。
13:38
(Laughter)
278
818174
2492
(笑聲)
13:42
But I was also struck
279
822593
1563
不過我也震驚於
這種相互隱瞞的
13:44
by the burdensome nature of such mutual secrecy.
280
824180
3518
惱人天性。
13:48
Depression is so exhausting.
281
828141
1861
憂鬱令人精疲力盡,
13:50
It takes up so much of your time and energy,
282
830026
2946
它消耗了你那麼多的時間和精力。
13:52
and silence about it,
283
832996
1531
對此緘口不提,
13:54
it really does make the depression worse.
284
834551
2257
只會讓憂鬱更糟糕。
13:57
And then I began thinking
285
837276
1209
我開始考慮各種方法
13:58
about all the ways people make themselves better.
286
838509
2323
可以讓人們感覺更好。
14:00
I'd started off as a medical conservative.
287
840856
2461
一開始我對醫學治療較保守。
14:03
I thought there were a few kinds of therapy that worked,
288
843341
2634
我認為一些療法是有效的,
14:05
it was clear what they were --
289
845999
1445
它們確實有效──
14:07
there was medication,
290
847468
1500
包括藥物治療,
14:08
there were certain psychotherapies,
291
848992
1667
還有一些特定的心理治療,
14:10
there was possibly electroconvulsive treatment,
292
850683
2421
電痙攣療法也可能有效。
除此以外的都沒用。
14:13
and that everything else was nonsense.
293
853128
2589
14:15
But then I discovered something.
294
855741
1928
但是後來我發現,
14:17
If you have brain cancer,
295
857693
1633
如果你得了腦癌,
14:19
and you say that standing on your head for 20 minutes every morning
296
859350
3188
而且你認為每天早上
倒立 20 分鐘能讓你感覺好些,
14:22
makes you feel better,
297
862562
1153
14:23
it may make you feel better, but you still have brain cancer,
298
863739
2978
這可能讓你感覺好一些,
但是你仍然會有腦癌。
14:26
and you'll still probably die from it.
299
866741
2073
你還是有可能因此死去。
14:29
But if you say that you have depression,
300
869387
2286
不過如果你說你得了憂鬱症,
14:31
and standing on your head for 20 minutes every day
301
871697
2340
然後每天倒立 20 分鐘
讓你感覺好些,那麼這是有效的。
14:34
makes you feel better, then it's worked,
302
874061
2196
14:36
because depression is an illness of how you feel,
303
876281
2441
因為憂鬱是一種關於感受的疾病。
14:38
and if you feel better,
304
878746
1330
如果你感覺好一點了,
14:40
then you are effectively not depressed anymore.
305
880100
2559
那麼你就不會那麼憂鬱了。
所以我開始對無數的替代療法
14:43
So I became much more tolerant
306
883112
2087
抱有更加寬容的看法。
14:45
of the vast world of alternative treatments.
307
885223
2388
14:47
And I get letters, I get hundreds of letters
308
887936
2312
我收到來信,多達幾百封的來信。
14:50
from people writing to tell me about what's worked for them.
309
890272
2810
人們來信告訴我,什麼樣的療法對他們有效。
今天有人在後臺問我關於
14:53
Someone was asking me backstage today about meditation.
310
893106
3565
藥物治療的事情。
14:56
My favorite of the letters that I got was the one that came from a woman
311
896695
3672
我最喜歡的一封來信
是來自一位女士。
15:00
who wrote and said that she had tried therapy, medication,
312
900391
2921
她說她嘗試過心理治療,
也嘗試過藥物治療, 嘗試了幾乎所有的治療方式。
15:03
she had tried pretty much everything,
313
903336
1830
她找到一個治療方法希望我能告訴全世界,
15:05
and she had found a solution and hoped I would tell the world,
314
905190
2906
那就是用紗線做些小東西。
15:08
and that was making little things from yarn.
315
908120
3572
15:11
(Laughter)
316
911716
2893
(笑聲)
15:14
She sent me some of them.
317
914633
1536
她還寄給我一些她的作品。(笑聲)
15:16
(Laughter)
318
916193
2030
15:18
And I'm not wearing them right now.
319
918247
1865
我今天並沒有把它們戴在身上,
15:20
(Laughter)
320
920136
1150
15:21
I suggested to her that she also should look up
321
921845
2491
我建議她還應該去醫院,
15:24
obsessive compulsive disorder in the DSM.
322
924360
3406
檢查一下是否得了強迫症。
15:28
And yet, when I went to look at alternative treatments,
323
928979
2690
然而,當我去了解各種療法的時候,
15:31
I also gained perspective on other treatments.
324
931693
2428
我也對其它療法有了新看法。
15:34
I went through a tribal exorcism in Senegal
325
934605
2718
我在塞內加爾參加了一次部落驅魔,
15:37
that involved a great deal of ram's blood
326
937347
1989
裡面還有很多公羊的血,
15:39
and that I'm not going to detail right now,
327
939360
2038
這裡我就不描述細節了。
15:41
but a few years afterwards I was in Rwanda,
328
941422
2000
但是多年之後,我在盧旺達
15:43
working on a different project,
329
943446
1897
做另一個計畫。
15:45
and I happened to describe my experience to someone,
330
945367
2585
我湊巧把自己的經歷告訴某個人,
15:47
and he said,
331
947976
1159
他說:「嗯,你知道,
15:49
"Well, that's West Africa, and we're in East Africa,
332
949159
2458
那裡是西非,我們這兒是東非,
15:51
and our rituals are in some ways very different,
333
951641
2257
我們的儀式在一些方面很不同,
15:53
but we do have some rituals
334
953922
1301
不過我們確實有一些儀式
15:55
that have something in common with what you're describing."
335
955247
2800
內容和你描述的相同。」
我回答說「哦。」然後他說:「是的。」
15:58
And he said,
336
958071
1167
15:59
"But we've had a lot of trouble with Western mental health workers,
337
959262
3211
他又說:「不過西方的心理工作者 讓我們很苦惱,
尤其是大屠殺之後來的那些心理醫生。」
16:02
especially the ones who came right after the genocide."
338
962497
2618
我問:「你對他們有什麼意見嗎?」
16:05
I said, "What kind of trouble did you have?"
339
965139
2050
他回答:「嗯,
16:07
And he said, "Well, they would do this bizarre thing.
340
967213
3752
他們做一些古怪的事。
16:10
They didn't take people out in the sunshine
341
970989
2048
他們不帶人們去陽光下,
那裡才讓人感覺舒服。
16:13
where you begin to feel better.
342
973061
1489
16:14
They didn't include drumming or music to get people's blood going.
343
974574
3152
他們不用鼓聲或者音樂使人血脈沸騰,
16:17
They didn't involve the whole community.
344
977750
1906
他們不動員整個社區的人,
16:19
They didn't externalize the depression as an invasive spirit.
345
979680
3236
他們不把憂鬱看做侵略性的幽靈
進行驅逐。
16:22
Instead what they did was they took people one at a time into dingy little rooms
346
982940
5013
相反的是,他們把人們一個個
帶到昏暗的小屋子裡,
16:27
and had them talk for an hour
347
987977
1381
跟他們談上一個小時,
16:29
about bad things that had happened to them."
348
989382
2144
談論發生在他們身上的悲慘故事。」
16:31
(Laughter)
349
991550
2043
(笑聲)(鼓掌)
16:33
(Applause)
350
993617
3369
16:37
He said, "We had to ask them to leave the country."
351
997010
2429
他說:「我們不得不要求他們離境。」
16:39
(Laughter)
352
999463
2942
(笑聲)
16:42
Now at the other end of alternative treatments,
353
1002429
2578
談到另一種替代療法,
我和大家說說 法蘭克 (Frank Russakoff) 的故事。
16:45
let me tell you about Frank Russakoff.
354
1005031
2095
法蘭克得了非常糟糕的憂鬱症,
16:47
Frank Russakoff had the worst depression perhaps that I've ever seen in a man.
355
1007150
5702
也許是我所見過最嚴重的病患。
16:52
He was constantly depressed.
356
1012876
1969
他一直處於憂鬱狀態。
16:54
He was, when I met him,
357
1014869
1445
我遇到他時,
16:56
at a point at which every month, he would have electroshock treatment.
358
1016338
3806
他每個月都要接受電擊治療,
17:00
Then he would feel sort of disoriented for a week.
359
1020168
2551
之後一週他會感覺茫然迷惘,
17:02
Then he would feel okay for a week.
360
1022743
1779
下一週他會覺得舒服一些,
17:04
Then he would have a week of going downhill.
361
1024546
2094
再下週他就會墜入谷底,
17:06
And then he would have another electroshock treatment.
362
1026664
2590
那時他就會再做一次電擊治療。
我遇到他時,他告訴我:
17:09
And he said to me when I met him,
363
1029278
1573
17:10
"It's unbearable to go through my weeks this way.
364
1030875
2365
「我無法忍受這樣一週一週的循環。
我不能繼續這樣下去,
17:13
I can't go on this way,
365
1033264
1447
17:14
and I've figured out how I'm going to end it
366
1034735
2110
我已經想好了怎麼結束這一切,
17:16
if I don't get better."
367
1036869
1333
如果我不能好起來的話。
17:18
"But," he said to me, "I heard about a protocol at Mass General
368
1038226
4102
但是,我聽說在麻省總醫院
有一項醫療實驗
17:22
for a procedure called a cingulotomy, which is a brain surgery,
369
1042352
3222
叫做扣帶回切開術,是一種腦部手術,
17:25
and I think I'm going to give that a try."
370
1045598
2269
我想去試試看。」
17:27
And I remember being amazed at that point to think that someone
371
1047891
3293
我記得當時自己很吃驚,
想到他這個人
17:31
who clearly had so many bad experiences
372
1051208
2997
有過那麼多悲慘的經歷,
17:34
with so many different treatments
373
1054229
2136
用了那麼多不同的療法,
17:36
still had buried in him, somewhere, enough optimism
374
1056389
3040
在他內心某處依然懷有一種樂觀天性,
17:39
to reach out for one more.
375
1059453
1785
支撐著他再試一次。
17:41
And he had the cingulotomy, and it was incredibly successful.
376
1061760
4197
他做了扣帶回切開手術,
出乎意料地成功。
17:45
He's now a friend of mine.
377
1065981
1612
他現在是我的朋友,
17:47
He has a lovely wife and two beautiful children.
378
1067617
3325
有一個可愛的妻子和兩個漂亮的孩子。
17:50
He wrote me a letter the Christmas after the surgery,
379
1070966
2925
術後的聖誕節他寫了一封信給我,
17:53
and he said,
380
1073915
1165
他說:
17:55
"My father sent me two presents this year,
381
1075104
2603
「今年我父親寄了兩個聖誕禮物給我,
17:57
First, a motorized CD rack from The Sharper Image
382
1077731
2527
第一個禮物是夏珀影像的 唱片電動收藏架。
18:00
that I didn't really need,
383
1080282
1398
我並不很需要這個,
18:01
but I knew he was giving it to me to celebrate
384
1081704
2237
但是我明白,他送我這個是為了
18:03
the fact that I'm living on my own and have a job I seem to love.
385
1083965
3249
慶祝我獨立生活,
並且有了一份自己還算喜歡的工作。
18:07
And the other present was a photo of my grandmother,
386
1087635
3241
另一份禮物
是一張我祖母的照片。
18:10
who committed suicide.
387
1090900
1476
我祖母是自殺去世的。
18:12
As I unwrapped it, I began to cry,
388
1092955
2905
當我拆開包裝的時候,我哭了。
18:15
and my mother came over and said,
389
1095884
1857
我母親走過來問我:
18:17
'Are you crying because of the relatives you never knew?'
390
1097765
2992
「你是因為沒有見過她才哭的嗎?」
我回答:「我哭是因為 她得了跟我一樣的病。」
18:21
And I said, 'She had the same disease I have.'
391
1101162
3548
18:25
I'm crying now as I write to you.
392
1105242
2612
寫給你這封信的時候,我正在流淚。
18:27
It's not that I'm so sad, but I get overwhelmed,
393
1107878
3287
不是因為悲傷,而是我無法承受。
18:31
I think, because I could have killed myself,
394
1111189
2197
我想我差點就會自殺,
18:33
but my parents kept me going, and so did the doctors,
395
1113410
3428
但是我的父母讓我挺過來了,
還有醫生們也幫助我,
18:36
and I had the surgery.
396
1116862
1830
讓我做了手術。
18:38
I'm alive and grateful.
397
1118716
2082
我活了下來,充滿感激。
18:41
We live in the right time, even if it doesn't always feel like it."
398
1121531
4601
我生在一個美好的時代,
雖然不是每時每刻感覺都美好。」
18:47
I was struck by the fact that depression
399
1127856
1919
讓我震驚的是,憂鬱症廣泛地
18:49
is broadly perceived to be a modern, Western, middle-class thing,
400
1129799
5006
被看做是一種
現代西方世界中產階級的產物。
18:54
and I went to look at how it operated in a variety of other contexts,
401
1134829
4131
於是我開始觀察憂鬱症
在不同情境下的表現方式。
18:58
and one of the things I was most interested in
402
1138984
2191
其中我最感興趣的是
19:01
was depression among the indigent.
403
1141199
1915
生活貧苦的憂鬱症患者。
所以我開始嘗試研究,
19:03
And so I went out to try to look
404
1143138
1548
19:04
at what was being done for poor people with depression.
405
1144710
2753
了解窮人如何治療憂鬱症。
19:07
And what I discovered is that poor people
406
1147487
2127
我發現窮人
19:09
are mostly not being treated for depression.
407
1149638
2528
幾乎都沒有得到憂鬱症的治療。
憂鬱症是一種基因缺陷,
19:12
Depression is the result of a genetic vulnerability,
408
1152190
2674
19:14
which is presumably evenly distributed in the population,
409
1154888
3350
它大致上平均分佈於人群中。
19:18
and triggering circumstances,
410
1158262
1713
在窮人身上,
19:19
which are likely to be more severe for people who are impoverished.
411
1159999
3754
憂鬱症的情況
可能會更為嚴重。
19:23
And yet it turns out that if you have a really lovely life
412
1163777
3503
然而如果你有美好的人生,
但卻總是不開心,
19:27
but feel miserable all the time,
413
1167304
1582
19:28
you think, "Why do I feel like this?
414
1168910
1786
你會想:「我為什麼感到不開心?
19:30
I must have depression."
415
1170720
1269
我肯定是憂鬱了。」
19:32
And you set out to find treatment for it.
416
1172013
2136
於是你到處尋找治療方法。
但是如果你的生活一團糟,
19:34
But if you have a perfectly awful life,
417
1174173
1932
19:36
and you feel miserable all the time,
418
1176129
1743
你總是感到不開心,
19:37
the way you feel is commensurate with your life,
419
1177896
3010
那麼你的感受和生活狀態是相符的。
19:40
and it doesn't occur to you to think,
420
1180930
1855
你就不會想:
19:42
"Maybe this is treatable."
421
1182809
1537
「也許這病醫得好。」
19:44
And so we have an epidemic in this country
422
1184370
3202
所以我們國家的低收入人群中,
19:47
of depression among impoverished people
423
1187596
2658
憂鬱症像傳染病一樣到處蔓延,
19:50
that's not being picked up and that's not being treated
424
1190278
2572
卻沒有被關注和治療。
19:52
and that's not being addressed,
425
1192874
1948
這個問題一直沒有解決,
19:54
and it's a tragedy of a grand order.
426
1194846
2071
變成了一個巨大的悲劇。
19:57
And so I found an academic
427
1197219
1600
我找到一位學者,
19:58
who was doing a research project in slums outside of D.C.,
428
1198843
3225
她在華盛頓特區外圍的貧民窟裡
進行一項研究。
20:02
where she picked up women who had come in for other health problems
429
1202092
3143
她挑出一些因為患其它疾病而就醫的女性,
20:05
and diagnosed them with depression,
430
1205259
1755
診斷出她們有憂鬱症後,
為她們提供了六個月的實驗計劃。
20:07
and then provided six months of the experimental protocol.
431
1207038
3072
20:10
One of them, Lolly, came in,
432
1210134
2305
其中的一位叫羅莉,
20:12
and this is what she said the day she came in.
433
1212463
2273
這是她第一天來看病時的陳述。
她是一位女性,順帶一提。
20:15
She said, and she was a woman, by the way, who had seven children.
434
1215069
4565
她有七個孩子,她說:
20:19
She said, "I used to have a job but I had to give it up
435
1219658
2785
「我以前有份工作,但是我不得不辭職。
20:22
because I couldn't go out of the house.
436
1222467
2215
因為我無法走出家門。
我和我的孩子無話可說,
20:25
I have nothing to say to my children.
437
1225134
1940
20:27
In the morning, I can't wait for them to leave,
438
1227447
2482
早上,我巴不得他們都快點離開上學去。
20:29
and then I climb in bed and pull the covers over my head,
439
1229953
3202
然後我就爬到床上,用被子蒙住腦袋。
下午三點他們就回家了,
20:33
and three o'clock when they come home,
440
1233179
1875
時間過得超快。」
20:35
it just comes so fast."
441
1235078
1442
20:36
She said, "I've been taking a lot of Tylenol,
442
1236544
2294
她說:「我已經吃了很多泰諾,
20:38
anything I can take so that I can sleep more.
443
1238862
2503
吃各種藥,好讓自己多睡一會。
20:41
My husband has been telling me I'm stupid, I'm ugly.
444
1241389
3997
我丈夫一直說我又蠢又醜。
20:45
I wish I could stop the pain."
445
1245410
2754
我希望能停止痛苦。」
20:48
Well, she was brought into this experimental protocol,
446
1248935
2596
她後來被加入到實驗治療計劃。
20:51
and when I interviewed her six months later,
447
1251555
2191
六個月之後我採訪了她,
20:53
she had taken a job working in childcare
448
1253770
4225
她已經在美國海軍幼兒園工作,
20:58
for the U.S. Navy, she had left the abusive husband,
449
1258019
4050
她離開了虐待她的丈夫。
她對我說:
21:02
and she said to me,
450
1262093
2023
「我的孩子們現在開心多了。」
21:04
"My kids are so much happier now."
451
1264140
2255
21:06
She said, "There's one room in my new place for the boys
452
1266419
2682
還說:「我的新家裡
有一間房間給男孩子,一間房間給女孩子,
21:09
and one room for the girls,
453
1269125
1887
但是到了晚上,他們都會來到我的床頭。
21:11
but at night, they're just all up on my bed,
454
1271036
2339
21:13
and we're doing homework all together and everything.
455
1273399
2588
我們一起做功課,一起做每件事。
21:16
One of them wants to be a preacher,
456
1276011
1674
我有個兒子想當牧師,
21:17
one of them wants to be a firefighter,
457
1277709
1893
還有一個兒子想做個消防員,
21:19
and one of the girls says she's going to be a lawyer.
458
1279626
2700
其中一個女兒說她以後會當個律師。
21:22
They don't cry like they used to,
459
1282350
2204
他們不再像過去一樣哭泣,
21:24
and they don't fight like they did.
460
1284578
1810
也不像過去一樣打架。
如今我只需要我的孩子們就夠了。
21:27
That's all I need now, is my kids.
461
1287144
2825
21:30
Things keep on changing,
462
1290826
1945
一切都不斷變化,
21:32
the way I dress, the way I feel, the way I act.
463
1292795
4376
我的穿著、我的情緒、我的行為都變了。
21:37
I can go outside not being afraid anymore,
464
1297909
3801
我不再畏懼出門,
21:41
and I don't think those bad feelings are coming back,
465
1301734
3488
我想那些壞情緒再也不會回來了。
這多虧了米蘭達醫生。
21:45
and if it weren't for Dr. Miranda and that,
466
1305246
2936
不然我還待在家裡蒙頭大睡。
21:48
I would still be at home with the covers pulled over my head,
467
1308206
3522
21:51
if I were still alive at all.
468
1311752
1853
前提是我還活著。
我向上帝禱告,賜我一個天使吧,
21:54
I asked the Lord to send me an angel,
469
1314097
3506
21:57
and He heard my prayers."
470
1317627
1777
衪真的聽到了我的祈禱。」
我真的被這些經歷深深打動。
22:02
I was really moved by these experiences,
471
1322308
2980
22:05
and I decided that I wanted to write about them
472
1325312
2515
我決定寫下這些,
22:07
not only in a book I was working on, but also in an article,
473
1327851
2817
不僅僅寫在我的書中,
還要寫一篇文章。
22:10
and I got a commission from The New York Times Magazine
474
1330692
2579
我從紐約時代雜誌得到一份約稿,
寫寫低收入者的憂鬱情況。
22:13
to write about depression among the indigent.
475
1333295
2119
我交出了稿件,
22:15
And I turned in my story,
476
1335438
1237
22:16
and my editor called me and said, "We really can't publish this."
477
1336699
3460
我的編輯打電話告訴我:
「我們可不能發表這個。」
我問:「為什麼不行?」
22:20
And I said, "Why not?"
478
1340668
1159
22:21
And she said, "It just is too far-fetched.
479
1341851
2071
她回答說:「這故事太勉強了。
22:23
These people who are sort of at the very bottom rung of society
480
1343946
3663
這些人處於社會最底層,
22:27
and then they get a few months of treatment
481
1347633
2015
然後他們接受了幾個月的治療,
22:29
and they're virtually ready to run Morgan Stanley?
482
1349672
2373
接著就能去管理摩根斯坦利了? (Morgan Stanley:知名投資公司)
這太沒說服力了。」
22:32
It's just too implausible."
483
1352069
1516
她說:「我從來沒聽過這種事情。」
22:34
She said, "I've never even heard of anything like it."
484
1354013
2581
22:36
And I said, "The fact that you've never heard of it
485
1356618
2453
我回答:「你沒有聽過這樣的事情,
正說明了這是條新聞。」
22:39
is an indication that it is news."
486
1359095
2103
22:41
(Laughter)
487
1361907
4023
(笑聲)(掌聲)
22:45
(Applause)
488
1365954
3339
22:49
"And you are a news magazine."
489
1369317
2117
「而你們可是一家新聞雜誌社。」
22:51
So after a certain amount of negotiation, they agreed to it.
490
1371950
3060
經過一些交涉協商,
他們同意發表。
22:55
But I think a lot of what they said was connected in some strange way
491
1375034
3886
之後我想了很多,雜誌社的想法
在某個詭異的層面上 跟另一個觀點雷同,
22:58
to this distaste that people still have for the idea of treatment,
492
1378944
3581
即人們依然對治療憂鬱症
覺得反感。
23:02
the notion that somehow if we went out
493
1382549
1858
如果我們去貧窮地區
23:04
and treated a lot of people in indigent communities,
494
1384431
2823
大規模治療人們的憂鬱症,
23:07
that would be exploitative,
495
1387278
1856
這會是一件具有剝削意義的事情,
23:09
because we would be changing them.
496
1389158
1698
因為我們將會改造他們。
23:10
There is this false moral imperative that seems to be all around us,
497
1390880
3807
似乎所有的人
都有一種錯誤的道德約束,
23:14
that treatment of depression,
498
1394711
2108
認為憂鬱症的治療,
23:16
the medications and so on, are an artifice,
499
1396843
2275
包括藥物和其他治療,都是人工的、
23:19
and that it's not natural.
500
1399142
2323
而不是自然的過程。
23:21
And I think that's very misguided.
501
1401489
2943
我想這想法是非常誤導人的。
23:24
It would be natural for people's teeth to fall out,
502
1404456
3333
按照自然規律, 人的牙齒應該逐漸掉落,
23:27
but there is nobody militating against toothpaste,
503
1407813
3188
但是沒人會反對使用牙膏,
23:31
at least not in my circles.
504
1411025
1470
至少我身邊沒人反對。
23:33
People then say,
505
1413915
1244
接著人們會說:「那麼,
23:35
"But isn't depression part of what people are supposed to experience?
506
1415183
3261
憂鬱症難道不是人們應該經歷的過程嗎?
憂鬱難道不是我們演化的結果嗎?
23:38
Didn't we evolve to have depression?
507
1418468
1732
它不是個性的一部分嗎?」
23:40
Isn't it part of your personality?"
508
1420224
1751
23:41
To which I would say, mood is adaptive.
509
1421999
2439
對此我想說的是, 情緒是可以適應調整的。
23:44
Being able to have sadness and fear
510
1424462
3077
我們能夠感受悲傷、害怕、
23:47
and joy and pleasure
511
1427563
1906
快樂、愉悅,
23:49
and all of the other moods that we have, that's incredibly valuable.
512
1429493
3755
和其它所有的情緒,
這彌足珍貴。
23:53
And major depression
513
1433272
1914
當這個感覺系統失靈的時候,
23:55
is something that happens when that system gets broken.
514
1435210
3362
嚴重的憂鬱症就出現了,
23:58
It's maladaptive.
515
1438596
1604
這是情緒上無法適應。
24:00
People will come to me and say,
516
1440224
1615
人們來找我,跟我說:
24:01
"I think, though, if I just stick it out for another year,
517
1441863
2802
「即使如此,我想如果能再堅持一年,
24:04
I think I can just get through this."
518
1444689
1853
我就能好起來。」
24:06
And I always say to them, "You may get through it,
519
1446566
2524
我總是這樣回答他們: 「你可能會好起來,
但是你的 37 歲無法再來一次。
24:09
but you'll never be 37 again.
520
1449114
2190
24:11
Life is short, and that's a whole year you're talking about giving up.
521
1451733
3709
人生短暫,你打算放棄
這整整一年,
24:15
Think it through."
522
1455982
1151
你再想想吧。」
24:17
It's a strange poverty of the English language,
523
1457694
2648
英語其實貧瘠得有點怪,
24:20
and indeed of many other languages,
524
1460366
2084
實際上很多其它語言也是如此,
24:22
that we use this same word, depression,
525
1462474
2370
我們用同一個詞(depression:沮喪)
24:24
to describe how a kid feels when it rains on his birthday,
526
1464868
3714
來形容小孩在
過生日那天碰到下雨的心情。
24:28
and to describe how somebody feels the minute before they commit suicide.
527
1468606
4359
同時也用這個詞來形容人們
自殺前一分鐘的心情。
24:33
People say to me, "Well, is it continuous with normal sadness?"
528
1473495
3006
人們問我:「那麼,憂鬱是不是連續的悲傷?」
24:36
And I say, in a way it's continuous with normal sadness.
529
1476525
3107
我回答在某種意義上, 憂鬱就是長時間的悲傷。
24:39
There is a certain amount of continuity,
530
1479656
2174
悲傷和憂鬱之間有一定的連續性。
24:41
but it's the same way there's continuity
531
1481854
1937
但是兩者的連續性,就像是
24:43
between having an iron fence outside your house
532
1483815
2206
悲傷就像是你家院子裡的鐵柵欄
24:46
that gets a little rust spot
533
1486045
1420
有點鏽斑,
24:47
that you have to sand off and do a little repainting,
534
1487489
2598
於是你必須打砂紙和重新上點漆。
24:50
and what happens if you leave the house for 100 years
535
1490111
2828
憂鬱則像是如果你離家 100 年之後,
24:52
and it rusts through until it's only a pile of orange dust.
536
1492963
3799
鐵柵欄從裡到外鏽到只剩下
一堆橘色粉末。
而就是那堆橘色粉末,
24:57
And it's that orange dust spot,
537
1497082
1853
24:58
that orange dust problem,
538
1498959
1765
那堆橘色的麻煩
25:00
that's the one we're setting out to address.
539
1500748
2586
就是我們要解決的問題。
所以現在人們問:
25:04
So now people say,
540
1504040
2214
「你吃了那些讓你快樂的藥,感覺開心嗎?」
25:06
"You take these happy pills, and do you feel happy?"
541
1506278
2679
25:08
And I don't.
542
1508981
1190
不,我不會開心。
25:10
But I don't feel sad about having to eat lunch,
543
1510594
2968
但是我不再為了得吃午飯而沮喪,
25:13
and I don't feel sad about my answering machine,
544
1513586
2841
不再因為電話答錄機而難過,
25:16
and I don't feel sad about taking a shower.
545
1516451
2198
也不會因為要洗澡而煩惱。
25:19
I feel more, in fact, I think,
546
1519324
2603
實際上,我想我能感受到更多。
25:21
because I can feel sadness without nullity.
547
1521951
2406
因為我可以感覺到傷心,但不空虛。
25:24
I feel sad about professional disappointments,
548
1524704
4206
我因為工作上的不順心而難過,
25:28
about damaged relationships,
549
1528934
2284
因為破碎的愛情而傷心,
25:31
about global warming.
550
1531242
1517
因為全球暖化而傷心,
25:33
Those are the things that I feel sad about now.
551
1533114
2701
現在這些事情讓我感到悲傷。
25:35
And I said to myself, well, what is the conclusion?
552
1535839
2710
我問自己,那麼結論是什麼呢?
25:38
How did those people who have better lives
553
1538573
2537
那些生活優渥、 病情更加嚴重的憂鬱症患者
25:41
even with bigger depression manage to get through?
554
1541134
2530
是怎麼熬過去的?
25:43
What is the mechanism of resilience?
555
1543964
2151
挺過去的方法是什麼呢?
25:46
And what I came up with over time
556
1546583
1962
時間流逝,我想到的是,
25:48
was that the people who deny their experience,
557
1548569
2826
那些否定自己經歷的人,
25:51
and say, "I was depressed a long time ago,
558
1551419
2016
他們會說:「很久以前我憂鬱了。
25:53
I never want to think about it again,
559
1553459
1771
我不想再想那些經歷,
25:55
I'm not going to look at it
560
1555254
1294
我不想再看它,
25:56
and I'm just going to get on with my life,"
561
1556572
2023
我只想繼續我的生活。」
25:58
ironically, those are the people who are most enslaved by what they have.
562
1558619
4598
諷刺的是,那些人
往往被自己的經歷所困。
26:03
Shutting out the depression strengthens it.
563
1563241
2198
迴避憂鬱只會讓它更強大。
26:05
While you hide from it, it grows.
564
1565780
2690
越逃離,它就越強大。
能夠好起來的人,
26:09
And the people who do better
565
1569185
2538
26:11
are the ones who are able to tolerate the fact that they have this condition.
566
1571747
4553
他們能夠接受事實,
承認自己的症狀。
那些可以接納自己有憂鬱症的人
26:16
Those who can tolerate their depression are the ones who achieve resilience.
567
1576324
3872
會康復起來。
26:20
So Frank Russakoff said to me,
568
1580516
1612
法蘭克後來告訴我:
26:22
"If I had a do-over, I suppose I wouldn't do it this way,
569
1582152
3722
「如果一切從頭來過,
我想我不會這樣做,
26:25
but in a strange way, I'm grateful for what I've experienced.
570
1585898
3468
但是很奇怪,我對自己的經歷
非常感激。
26:29
I'm glad to have been in the hospital 40 times.
571
1589390
3324
我很高興自己住了 40 次醫院,
這些經歷教會了我什麼是愛,
26:33
It taught me so much about love,
572
1593023
2611
26:35
and my relationship with my parents and my doctors
573
1595658
2921
我和父母、醫生之間的關係
26:38
has been so precious to me, and will be always."
574
1598603
3546
對我而言非常珍貴,一輩子都受用。」
26:42
And Maggie Robbins said,
575
1602772
1902
瑪姬曾說:
26:44
"I used to volunteer in an AIDS clinic,
576
1604698
2965
「我以前在愛滋診所裡擔任志工。
26:47
and I would just talk and talk and talk,
577
1607687
2990
我會滔滔不絕地
26:50
and the people I was dealing with weren't very responsive, and I thought,
578
1610701
4033
對著我負責的病患說話。
他們沒太大反應,於是我想:
26:54
'That's not very friendly or helpful of them.'"
579
1614758
2496
「他們真不友善,也不配合。」
26:57
(Laughter)
580
1617278
1240
26:58
"And then I realized,
581
1618542
1618
後來我意識到,
27:00
I realized that they weren't going to do more
582
1620184
2143
我意識到他們無法做到更多,
27:02
than make those first few minutes of small talk.
583
1622351
2483
除了完成剛開始那幾分鐘的閒談。
27:04
It was simply going to be an occasion
584
1624858
2039
這只是一個機會,讓他們看到,
27:06
where I didn't have AIDS and I wasn't dying,
585
1626921
2949
雖然我沒有愛滋病,也不會死去,
27:09
but could tolerate the fact that they did
586
1629894
2878
但是我可以接受他們的疾病,
27:12
and they were.
587
1632796
1215
還有他們正在死去的事實。
27:14
Our needs are our greatest assets.
588
1634503
3143
我們的需求是我們最寶貴的財富。
我發現自己學會了付出
27:18
It turns out I've learned to give all the things I need."
589
1638202
4165
自己擁有的一切。」
27:24
Valuing one's depression does not prevent a relapse,
590
1644160
3861
正視憂鬱的價值
不能防止憂鬱的復發,
27:28
but it may make the prospect of relapse
591
1648045
2637
但是可能會使復發的結果好一些,
27:30
and even relapse itself easier to tolerate.
592
1650706
3513
甚至能讓自己更容易熬過去。
問題並不在於
27:35
The question is not so much of finding great meaning
593
1655004
3658
找尋重大的意義,或者判斷
27:38
and deciding your depression has been very meaningful.
594
1658686
2571
你的憂鬱是否很有意義。
27:41
It's of seeking that meaning and thinking, when it comes again,
595
1661281
3991
而是當憂鬱捲土重來的時候,
尋找它的意義,並想:
27:45
"This will be hellish, but I will learn something from it."
596
1665296
3317
「這會很可怕,
但是我會從中獲益。」
27:49
I have learned in my own depression
597
1669487
2240
我從自己的憂鬱中學到,
27:51
how big an emotion can be,
598
1671751
2198
情緒的力量有多大,
27:53
how it can be more real than facts,
599
1673973
3060
它甚至可以比事實更加真實。
我也發現那些經歷
27:57
and I have found that that experience
600
1677057
2729
27:59
has allowed me to experience positive emotion
601
1679810
2868
用一種更為強烈和聚焦的方式
28:02
in a more intense and more focused way.
602
1682702
2899
讓我經歷正向的情緒。
28:06
The opposite of depression is not happiness,
603
1686222
3583
憂鬱的反面不是快樂,
28:09
but vitality,
604
1689829
1310
而是活力。
28:11
and these days, my life is vital,
605
1691163
2955
現在,我的生活充滿活力,
即使在我感到難過的時候也是如此。
28:14
even on the days when I'm sad.
606
1694142
2292
28:16
I felt that funeral in my brain,
607
1696823
3115
我曾在腦中感受到那場葬禮,
28:19
and I sat next to the colossus at the edge of the world,
608
1699962
4540
我坐在一個巨人身邊,
就在世界的邊緣,
28:24
and I have discovered something inside of myself
609
1704526
3887
我發現我的體內
有個東西,
28:28
that I would have to call a soul
610
1708437
2064
我稱之為靈魂。
28:30
that I had never formulated until that day 20 years ago
611
1710525
3513
20 年前它從未成型,
28:34
when hell came to pay me a surprise visit.
612
1714062
3301
直到地獄冷不防地拜訪我。
28:38
I think that while I hated being depressed
613
1718841
3813
我想即使我痛恨自己的憂鬱,
28:42
and would hate to be depressed again,
614
1722678
2502
痛恨又被憂鬱纏上,
28:45
I've found a way to love my depression.
615
1725204
2063
我還是找到了一種方法讓自己愛上它。
28:47
I love it because it has forced me to find and cling to joy.
616
1727894
4183
我愛自己的憂鬱,因為它迫使我
尋找和抓緊快樂。
28:52
I love it because each day I decide,
617
1732681
3589
我愛我的憂鬱,因為每天,我都決定
28:56
sometimes gamely,
618
1736294
1389
去抓住活下去的理由。
28:57
and sometimes against the moment's reason,
619
1737707
2545
雖然有時候不拘小節,
29:00
to cleave to the reasons for living.
620
1740276
2139
有時候不合時宜。
29:02
And that, I think, is a highly privileged rapture.
621
1742978
3677
我想,這真是天賜的無上喜悅。
謝謝大家。
29:07
Thank you.
622
1747076
1256
29:08
(Applause)
623
1748356
4001
(掌聲)
29:12
Thank you.
624
1752381
1151
29:13
(Applause)
625
1753556
2372
關於本網站

本網站將向您介紹對學習英語有用的 YouTube 視頻。 您將看到來自世界各地的一流教師教授的英語課程。 雙擊每個視頻頁面上顯示的英文字幕,從那裡播放視頻。 字幕與視頻播放同步滾動。 如果您有任何意見或要求,請使用此聯繫表與我們聯繫。

https://forms.gle/WvT1wiN1qDtmnspy7


This website was created in October 2020 and last updated on June 12, 2025.

It is now archived and preserved as an English learning resource.

Some information may be out of date.

隱私政策

eng.lish.video

Developer's Blog