Onora O'Neill: What we don't understand about trust

260,156 views ・ 2013-09-25

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翻译人员: lin piao 校对人员: jihan jung
00:12
So I'm going to talk about trust,
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我今天要讲的是信任。
00:14
and I'm going to start by reminding you
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一开始,我要先向你们交代一下,
00:16
of the standard views that people have about trust.
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人们对信任的基本观点。
00:20
I think these are so commonplace,
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我觉得这些观点都很司空见惯,
00:22
they've become clichés of our society.
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在现实社会已经变成陈词滥调了。
00:25
And I think there are three.
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我想一共有这样三点。
00:27
One's a claim: there has been a great decline in trust,
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第一点是主张:信任感已经大幅地降低了。
00:31
very widely believed.
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这已经是有广泛共识的。
00:33
The second is an aim: we should have more trust.
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第二点是目的:我们应该有更多的信任感。
00:38
And the third is a task: we should rebuild trust.
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第三点是任务:我们应该重建信任感。
00:43
I think that the claim, the aim and the task
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我觉得人们对这个主张、目的和任务
00:48
are all misconceived.
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都有错误的认识。
00:50
So what I'm going to try to tell you today
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所以我今天要跟你们说的是
00:52
is a different story about a claim, an aim and a task
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跟这种主张、目的和任务有所不同的观点。
00:56
which I think give one quite a lot better purchase on the matter.
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我想让你们更好地理解信任。
01:01
First the claim: Why do people think trust has declined?
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首先是主张:为什么人们认为信任感在降低呢?
01:06
And if I really think about it on the basis of my own evidence,
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如果我在现有证据的基础上考虑,
01:09
I don't know the answer.
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我真的不知道答案是什么。
01:11
I'm inclined to think it may have declined
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我倾向于认为信任感确实是有降低,
01:15
in some activities or some institutions
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但那是在某些活动中,或者在某些机构里。
01:18
and it might have grown in others.
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而在其他的方面也许是增加的。
01:20
I don't have an overview.
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我没法一概而论。
01:22
But, of course, I can look at the opinion polls,
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但当然了,我可以去看看民意调查,
01:27
and the opinion polls are supposedly
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民意调查应该是
01:29
the source of a belief that trust has declined.
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觉得信任感在降低的出处。
01:33
When you actually look at opinion polls across time,
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但当你真的去看看不同时间的民意调查的话,
01:37
there's not much evidence for that.
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其实没有多少证据支持这个观点。
01:39
That's to say, the people who were mistrusted
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也就是说,那些
01:41
20 years ago,
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在20年前就不被相信的人
01:43
principally journalists and politicians, are still mistrusted.
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主要是记者和政客,现在仍不被信任。
01:47
And the people who were highly trusted 20 years ago
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而20年前就被高度信任的人,
01:51
are still rather highly trusted: judges, nurses.
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比如法官和护士,现在仍得到高度的信任。
01:54
The rest of us are in between,
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剩下的人就是居中了。
01:56
and by the way, the average person in the street
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顺便说一下,在社会上这些居中的人,
01:59
is almost exactly midway.
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差不多就是完全居中。
02:01
But is that good evidence?
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但是这个证据说得过去吗?
02:03
What opinion polls record is, of course, opinions.
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民意调查记录的当然就是一些人们的观点。
02:08
What else can they record?
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要不然民意调查能记录什么?
02:09
So they're looking at the generic attitudes
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不过就是一些普遍的态度。
02:13
that people report when you ask them certain questions.
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你问他们什么,他们就说什么。
02:16
Do you trust politicians? Do you trust teachers?
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你信任政客吗?信任老师吗?
02:20
Now if somebody said to you, "Do you trust greengrocers?
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如果有人问你,“你信任蔬菜商吗?”
02:24
Do you trust fishmongers?
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你信任卖鱼的吗?
02:26
Do you trust elementary school teachers?"
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你信任小学老师吗?
02:28
you would probably begin by saying, "To do what?"
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你可能会问,“信任他们去做什么?”
02:32
And that would be a perfectly sensible response.
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这是一个非常明智的反问。
02:35
And you might say, when you understood the answer to that,
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当你明白问题到底是什么, 你会说,
02:40
"Well, I trust some of them, but not others."
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“嗯。我相信一些人,不相信另一些人。”
02:44
That's a perfectly rational thing.
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非常理性的回答。
02:46
In short, in our real lives,
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简而言之,在我们现实生活中,
02:49
we seek to place trust in a differentiated way.
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我们以不同的方式来寻求信任。
02:52
We don't make an assumption that the level of trust
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我们不对信任感的程度做假设。
02:56
that we will have in every instance of a certain type
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我们会对特定类型进行具体分析。
02:59
of official or office-holder or type of person
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那些公务员,官员之类的人,
03:03
is going to be uniform.
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会被类型化。
03:05
I might, for example, say that I certainly trust
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比如说,我会说我当然相信
03:09
a certain elementary school teacher I know
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一个我知道的小学老师
03:11
to teach the reception class to read,
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会教会学生怎么阅读。
03:14
but in no way to drive the school minibus.
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但是我不相信她可以开校车。
03:18
I might, after all, know that she wasn't a good driver.
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也许最终我知道她确实不是个好司机。
03:21
I might trust my most loquacious friend
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我也许相信我那爱喝酒的朋友
03:24
to keep a conversation going
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是个聊天的好伙伴。
03:26
but not -- but perhaps not to keep a secret.
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但我不会相信他是个守得住秘密的人。
03:36
Simple.
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就这么简单。
03:37
So if we've got those evidence in our ordinary lives
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在日常生活中我们有了这样的证据,
03:42
of the way that trust is differentiated,
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说信任感是有区分的,
03:44
why do we sort of drop all that intelligence
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那么为什么民意调查时我们一下子糊涂了,
03:47
when we think about trust more abstractly?
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把信任感想得更概念化了呢?
03:51
I think the polls are very bad guides
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我觉得民意调查是个很差劲的
03:54
to the level of trust that actually exists,
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衡量信任感是否存在的依据。
03:57
because they try to obliterate the good judgment
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因为它抹杀了人们良好的判断力。
04:00
that goes into placing trust.
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对考虑信任感的判断力。
04:04
Secondly, what about the aim?
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第二,那个目的是怎么回事儿呢?
04:06
The aim is to have more trust.
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目的是我们需要更多的信任感。
04:09
Well frankly, I think that's a stupid aim.
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坦白说,我觉得这个目的挺可笑的。
04:12
It's not what I would aim at.
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这不是我想的那个目的。
04:14
I would aim to have more trust in the trustworthy
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我会说,人们应该对值得信赖的(人)更加地信任。
04:17
but not in the untrustworthy.
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而不是去信任不值得信赖的人。
04:20
In fact, I aim positively to try not to trust the untrustworthy.
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实际上,我所说的目的是尽量不要信任不值得信赖的人。
04:27
And I think, of those people who, for example,
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比如说,那些
04:30
placed their savings with the very aptly named Mr. Madoff,
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把自己的积蓄交给那个看起来很象样的
04:35
who then made off with them,
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却把他们的钱都卷走的麦道夫先生
04:38
and I think of them, and I think, well, yes,
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的人,我觉得那些人呀,怎么说呢,对,
04:40
too much trust.
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太容易信任别人了。
04:42
More trust is not an intelligent aim in this life.
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过度地信任别人不是一个很明智的目的。
04:46
Intelligently placed and intelligently refused trust
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明智地信任和明智地选择不信任
04:50
is the proper aim.
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才是正确的目的。
04:52
Well once one says that, one says, yeah, okay,
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那么有人说,好呀,好,
04:56
that means that what matters in the first place
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这不就是说最重要的
04:59
is not trust but trustworthiness.
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不是要去信任,而是(对方的)信誉度吗?
05:02
It's judging how trustworthy people are
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就是说要判断别人在某些方面
05:05
in particular respects.
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是否值得信任。
05:07
And I think that judgment requires us to look at three things.
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我觉得要想正确做出判断需要考虑三点。
05:10
Are they competent? Are they honest? Are they reliable?
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要看他们是否称职?是否诚实?是否可靠?
05:15
And if we find that a person is competent
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如果我们觉得一个人是称职的,
05:18
in the relevant matters,
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在他自己的领域是称职的。
05:19
and reliable and honest,
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而且是诚实可靠的。
05:21
we'll have a pretty good reason to trust them,
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我们就有理由去相信他们,
05:23
because they'll be trustworthy.
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因为他们是可信赖的。
05:26
But if, on the other hand, they're unreliable, we might not.
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但是反过来,如果他们不可靠,那我们就不能信任他们。
05:29
I have friends who are competent and honest,
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我有一些诚实可靠的朋友,
05:32
but I would not trust them to post a letter,
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但我就信不着他们去帮我寄信,
05:33
because they're forgetful.
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因为他们很健忘。
05:36
I have friends who are very confident
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我有些非常自信的朋友,
05:39
they can do certain things,
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他们很能干,
05:41
but I realize that they overestimate their own competence.
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但是我觉得他们有些过于自信。
05:45
And I'm very glad to say, I don't think I have many friends
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当然我很高兴的是,我的朋友都是
05:48
who are competent and reliable but extremely dishonest.
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称职可靠,又不是非常不诚实的。
05:51
(Laughter)
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(笑声)
05:52
If so, I haven't yet spotted it.
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也许有,我还没发现。
05:56
But that's what we're looking for:
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我们需要的就是:
05:58
trustworthiness before trust.
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信任别人之前要看他的信誉度。
06:00
Trust is the response.
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信任是我们的反应。
06:02
Trustworthiness is what we have to judge.
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信誉度是需要我们来判断的。
06:04
And, of course, it's difficult.
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所以当然这不是容易做到的。
06:06
Across the last few decades, we've tried to construct
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过去的几十年里,我们努力地建立
06:09
systems of accountability for all sorts of institutions
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各种机构里的问责制度,
06:13
and professionals and officials and so on
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是否达到专业水准或者官方要求等等
06:15
that will make it easier for us to judge their trustworthiness.
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这些(问责制度)使我们更容易判断(这些机构)是否有信誉。
06:19
A lot of these systems have the converse effect.
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很多机构都有这样的逆反应。
06:23
They don't work as they're supposed to.
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他们不象他们应该做的那样做事。
06:24
I remember I was talking with a midwife who said,
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我记得和我一个助产士聊天,她说
06:29
"Well, you see, the problem is it takes longer
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”你看看,现在的问题是我要
06:31
to do the paperwork than to deliver the baby."
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办个什么手续比接生一个孩子还难!“
06:35
And all over our public life, our institutional life,
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在我们的公共生活里,我们的机构生活里,
06:38
we find that problem,
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我们发现很多问题。
06:40
that the system of accountability
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这些机构里的问责制度
06:43
that is meant to secure trustworthiness
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这些能保障自己的信誉
06:45
and evidence of trustworthiness
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能作为值得信任的依据的制度
06:48
is actually doing the opposite.
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往往施行起来是相反的。
06:50
It is distracting people who have to do difficult tasks,
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这就使人们难以专注自己的工作,
06:54
like midwives, from doing them
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比如助产士们,
06:57
by requiring them to tick the boxes, as we say.
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让他们把时间浪费在填表上。就象我刚提到的。
07:00
You can all give your own examples there.
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你们其实都有这样的经历。
07:02
So so much for the aim.
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关于目的要讲的很多很多。
07:04
The aim, I think, is more trustworthiness,
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我想这个目的更重要的是对方的信誉度。
07:07
and that is going to be different
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那就完全不一样了。
07:09
if we are trying to be trustworthy
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比如说我们努力去成为值得信任的人,
07:11
and communicate our trustworthiness to other people,
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把我们值得信任的一面展示给别人。
07:14
and if we are trying to judge whether other people
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比如说我们先判断别人,
07:17
or office-holders or politicians are trustworthy.
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官员或者政客是否值得信任。
07:20
It's not easy. It is judgment, and simple reaction,
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这不是容易的事。这是判断,是迅速反应,
07:25
attitudes, don't do adequately here.
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是态度,在这里都讲不完。
07:30
Now thirdly, the task.
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那么第三点,关于任务。
07:33
Calling the task rebuilding trust, I think,
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这个任务叫做重建信任感。
07:37
also gets things backwards.
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这又是弄反了的。
07:38
It suggests that you and I should rebuild trust.
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这个任务建议你和我要重建信任。
07:43
Well, we can do that for ourselves.
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好吧,我们能对自己这么做,
07:46
We can rebuild a bit of trustworthiness.
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我们能重建一些自己的信誉,
07:48
We can do it two people together trying to improve trust.
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我们可以互相努力增加我们的信任。
07:52
But trust, in the end, is distinctive
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但关根到底,信任是很独特的。
07:55
because it's given by other people.
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因为(信任)是来自他人的。
07:58
You can't rebuild what other people give you.
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你不可能重建别人对你的看法。
08:01
You have to give them the basis
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你需要做出努力
08:04
for giving you their trust.
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让人家信任你。
08:07
So you have to, I think, be trustworthy.
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我是说,你要成为一个值得信赖的人。
08:10
And that, of course, is because you can't fool
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当然,这就是说你不能
08:12
all of the people all of the time, usually.
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在永远愚弄住所有的人,一般来说。
08:16
But you also have to provide usable evidence
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你得提供一些有用的依据,
08:21
that you are trustworthy.
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让别人知道你是值得信赖的。
08:22
How to do it?
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应该怎么做?
08:24
Well every day, all over the place, it's being done
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其实每天,在不同得地方,
08:27
by ordinary people, by officials, by institutions,
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普通人,办公人员,各个机构都在努力(博得信任),
08:30
quite effectively.
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往往做得很有效呢。
08:32
Let me give you a simple commercial example.
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我给你举个简单的商家营销的例子,
08:35
The shop where I buy my socks says I may take them back,
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有个商店说(如果不满意)我可以把买的袜子退回去,
08:39
and they don't ask any questions.
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他们绝不问任何问题。
08:41
They take them back and give me the money
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他们收退货,我拿退货款。
08:43
or give me the pair of socks of the color I wanted.
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或者给我换是我喜欢颜色的袜子。
08:46
That's super. I trust them
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这很好。我信任他们。
08:48
because they have made themselves vulnerable to me.
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因为他们让我觉得他们是处于弱势。
08:51
I think there's a big lesson in that.
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我觉得这很有教益。
08:53
If you make yourself vulnerable to the other party,
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如果对于别人,你使自己处于弱势,
08:56
then that is very good evidence that you are trustworthy
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这就是个很好的值得信任的依据。
09:00
and you have confidence in what you are saying.
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对自己说的话就有自信。
09:03
So in the end, I think what we are aiming for
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所以最终呢,我们的意图
09:06
is not very difficult to discern.
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就不那么难辨别了。
09:09
It is relationships in which people are trustworthy
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人们是否值得信任是一种人和人之间的关系。
09:13
and can judge when and how the other person
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我们可以判断什么时候人们是如何
09:17
is trustworthy.
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值得你信任的。
09:18
So the moral of all this is,
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从道义上说,
09:22
we need to think much less about trust,
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我们要少考虑信任,
09:25
let alone about attitudes of trust
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更不要说对信任的态度,
09:29
detected or mis-detected by opinion polls,
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或者凭着民意测验来判断或者误判,
09:33
much more about being trustworthy,
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让我们更关注于成为值得信赖的人。
09:35
and how you give people adequate, useful
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关注于如何提供恰当、有益
09:39
and simple evidence that you're trustworthy.
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简单的依据让人们觉得你是可以信赖的。
09:42
Thanks.
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谢谢!
09:43
(Applause)
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(掌声)
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