Onora O'Neill: What we don't understand about trust

260,447 views ・ 2013-09-25

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譯者: Sophia Liu 審譯者: Shengwei Cai
00:12
So I'm going to talk about trust,
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今天我要談的是信任,
00:14
and I'm going to start by reminding you
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在這之前我想要提醒你們
00:16
of the standard views that people have about trust.
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人們對於信任的普遍觀點。
00:20
I think these are so commonplace,
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我認為這些都老生常談的事,
00:22
they've become clichés of our society.
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他們變成了社會上經常討論的陳詞濫調。
00:25
And I think there are three.
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我認為一共有三點。
00:27
One's a claim: there has been a great decline in trust,
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第一是一個主張:人們普遍認為,
00:31
very widely believed.
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信任感驟減。
00:33
The second is an aim: we should have more trust.
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第二個是一個目標:我們需要有更多的信任。
00:38
And the third is a task: we should rebuild trust.
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而第三個是一個任務:我們需要重建信任。
00:43
I think that the claim, the aim and the task
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而我認為,主張也好,目標和任務也好,
00:48
are all misconceived.
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都是誤解。
00:50
So what I'm going to try to tell you today
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所以我今天要跟你們說的
00:52
is a different story about a claim, an aim and a task
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與社會上所公認的主張、目標和任務截然不同,
00:56
which I think give one quite a lot better purchase on the matter.
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而我認為,這是對信任這一話題更好的解讀。
01:01
First the claim: Why do people think trust has declined?
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首先是主張:爲什麽人們普遍認為信任感驟減?
01:06
And if I really think about it on the basis of my own evidence,
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根據我自己的證明出發,
01:09
I don't know the answer.
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我不知道答案。
01:11
I'm inclined to think it may have declined
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我更傾向於去想信任感
01:15
in some activities or some institutions
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可能在某些活動或者組織里驟減
01:18
and it might have grown in others.
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但是在其他活動或組織里增加。
01:20
I don't have an overview.
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我沒有一個總體觀察。
01:22
But, of course, I can look at the opinion polls,
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但,當然,我可以去看民意調查,
01:27
and the opinion polls are supposedly
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而民意調查按推測來說是
01:29
the source of a belief that trust has declined.
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“信任感驟減“這一主張的根源。
01:33
When you actually look at opinion polls across time,
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但當你真的去看從以前到現在的民意調查時,
01:37
there's not much evidence for that.
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並沒有根據去可以去支持這一主張。
01:39
That's to say, the people who were mistrusted
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也就是說,二十年前
01:41
20 years ago,
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被不信任的人群,
01:43
principally journalists and politicians, are still mistrusted.
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主要是記者和政客在現在還是不被信任。
01:47
And the people who were highly trusted 20 years ago
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但二十年前被高度信任的人群
01:51
are still rather highly trusted: judges, nurses.
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現在還是被高度信任,如法官和護士。
01:54
The rest of us are in between,
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其他人的信任感在其間,
01:56
and by the way, the average person in the street
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順便提到一點,在街上的普通人
01:59
is almost exactly midway.
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信任感都在中等程度。
02:01
But is that good evidence?
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這是一個好的證據嗎?
02:03
What opinion polls record is, of course, opinions.
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民意調查記錄的,當然,是意見。
02:08
What else can they record?
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但他們還能記錄其他別的什麽嗎?
02:09
So they're looking at the generic attitudes
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所以他們開始看人們回答
02:13
that people report when you ask them certain questions.
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一些問題時的一半態度。
02:16
Do you trust politicians? Do you trust teachers?
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你們相信政客嗎?你們相信老師嗎?
02:20
Now if somebody said to you, "Do you trust greengrocers?
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如果有一個人問你,”你相信水果蔬菜攤販嗎?
02:24
Do you trust fishmongers?
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你相信魚販嗎?
02:26
Do you trust elementary school teachers?"
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你相信小學老師嗎?”
02:28
you would probably begin by saying, "To do what?"
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你也許會開始問,“爲什麽要信任?”
02:32
And that would be a perfectly sensible response.
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這也許是一個非常合理的回答。
02:35
And you might say, when you understood the answer to that,
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當你明白了問題的答案,你也許會說,
02:40
"Well, I trust some of them, but not others."
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“好吧,我相信他們之中其中一些,但不是其他的。”
02:44
That's a perfectly rational thing.
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那也是非常理智的一件事。
02:46
In short, in our real lives,
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簡要來說,在我們的真實生活中,
02:49
we seek to place trust in a differentiated way.
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我們嘗試去把信任從不同的層面來理解。
02:52
We don't make an assumption that the level of trust
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對於我們信任的程度
02:56
that we will have in every instance of a certain type
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會根據某種類型
02:59
of official or office-holder or type of person
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比如說政府人員或官方人員 而統一
03:03
is going to be uniform.
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不做假設。
03:05
I might, for example, say that I certainly trust
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比方說,我也許會說我一定會信任
03:09
a certain elementary school teacher I know
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一個我所熟知的小學老師
03:11
to teach the reception class to read,
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教授學前班閱讀,
03:14
but in no way to drive the school minibus.
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但是卻絕不能讓他開校車。
03:18
I might, after all, know that she wasn't a good driver.
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我也許知道她並不是一個好的司機。
03:21
I might trust my most loquacious friend
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我也許相信我最多嘴的朋友
03:24
to keep a conversation going
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可以使對話變得順暢
03:26
but not -- but perhaps not to keep a secret.
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但恐怕不能信任他可以保守秘密。
03:36
Simple.
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這是一個簡單的論點。
03:37
So if we've got those evidence in our ordinary lives
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所以如果我們收集這些在我們平常生活中的證據
03:42
of the way that trust is differentiated,
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來證明信任是分不同層面的,
03:44
why do we sort of drop all that intelligence
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那麼爲什麽當我們把信任這一話題抽象意義上想的時候
03:47
when we think about trust more abstractly?
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就丟失我們的智慧了呢?
03:51
I think the polls are very bad guides
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我認為民意調查對於真正存在的信任程度
03:54
to the level of trust that actually exists,
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是非常錯誤的指標
03:57
because they try to obliterate the good judgment
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因為他們以信任作為話題的時候
04:00
that goes into placing trust.
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就丟失掉良好的判斷力。
04:04
Secondly, what about the aim?
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第二,那麼目標呢?
04:06
The aim is to have more trust.
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目標是要有更多的信任。
04:09
Well frankly, I think that's a stupid aim.
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好吧,坦白說,我覺得這是個愚蠢的目標。
04:12
It's not what I would aim at.
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這不會是我的目標。
04:14
I would aim to have more trust in the trustworthy
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我的目標會是對值得信賴的多信任
04:17
but not in the untrustworthy.
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而不是對待不值得信任的胡亂信任。
04:20
In fact, I aim positively to try not to trust the untrustworthy.
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實際上,我的目標是不要去相信那些不值得信任的。
04:27
And I think, of those people who, for example,
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而且我認為,比如,那些人
04:30
placed their savings with the very aptly named Mr. Madoff,
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把他們的存款存在馬多夫(旁氏騙局,美國歷史上最大的欺詐案)名下
04:35
who then made off with them,
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然後馬多夫再把他們騙光,
04:38
and I think of them, and I think, well, yes,
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我認為他們,
04:40
too much trust.
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就太過於信任了。
04:42
More trust is not an intelligent aim in this life.
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更多信任不應該是人生中的一個明智的目標。
04:46
Intelligently placed and intelligently refused trust
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明智的選擇相信和明智的選擇不相信
04:50
is the proper aim.
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才是更合適的目標。
04:52
Well once one says that, one says, yeah, okay,
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曾經有一個人說,
04:56
that means that what matters in the first place
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放在第一位的應該
04:59
is not trust but trustworthiness.
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不是信任而是可信度。
05:02
It's judging how trustworthy people are
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可信度是用來檢測人們在特定的層面
05:05
in particular respects.
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是否可信。
05:07
And I think that judgment requires us to look at three things.
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而我認為判斷要求我們觀察三件事。
05:10
Are they competent? Are they honest? Are they reliable?
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他們是否有能力?他們是否誠實?他們是否可信賴?
05:15
And if we find that a person is competent
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如果我們發現一個人在有關事項里
05:18
in the relevant matters,
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具有能力,
05:19
and reliable and honest,
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可信又誠實,
05:21
we'll have a pretty good reason to trust them,
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我們就有足夠的理由去相信他們,
05:23
because they'll be trustworthy.
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因為他們可信賴。
05:26
But if, on the other hand, they're unreliable, we might not.
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但是如果,換一個角度來說,他們不可信, 我們就也許不會選擇相信了。
05:29
I have friends who are competent and honest,
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我有幾個又有能力又誠實的朋友,
05:32
but I would not trust them to post a letter,
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但是我確不會向他們去張貼一封信,
05:33
because they're forgetful.
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因為他們很健忘。
05:36
I have friends who are very confident
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我有朋友非常的自信
05:39
they can do certain things,
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他們能做某些特定的事情上,
05:41
but I realize that they overestimate their own competence.
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但我也認識到他們高估了自己的能力。
05:45
And I'm very glad to say, I don't think I have many friends
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我非常高興的說,我不認為我有很多
05:48
who are competent and reliable but extremely dishonest.
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有能力、可靠又極其不誠實的朋友。
05:51
(Laughter)
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(笑)
05:52
If so, I haven't yet spotted it.
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即使有的話,我也還沒發現。
05:56
But that's what we're looking for:
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但這就是我們需要的:
05:58
trustworthiness before trust.
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信任之前檢測可信度。
06:00
Trust is the response.
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信任是反應。
06:02
Trustworthiness is what we have to judge.
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可信度是我們需要判斷的。
06:04
And, of course, it's difficult.
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誠然,這是很難去判斷的。
06:06
Across the last few decades, we've tried to construct
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在過去的幾十年,我們嘗試為
06:09
systems of accountability for all sorts of institutions
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各種各樣的機構、專業人員以及政府官員
06:13
and professionals and officials and so on
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建立問責制度
06:15
that will make it easier for us to judge their trustworthiness.
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讓我們更容易去判斷他們是否可信。
06:19
A lot of these systems have the converse effect.
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但很多這樣的體制卻有反效果。
06:23
They don't work as they're supposed to.
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他們並不像預期的那樣有效。
06:24
I remember I was talking with a midwife who said,
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我記得當我跟一個助產師談話的時候說,
06:29
"Well, you see, the problem is it takes longer
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“你看,問題在於文書工作
06:31
to do the paperwork than to deliver the baby."
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比生產的時間還要長。“
06:35
And all over our public life, our institutional life,
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有一個問題遍佈在
06:38
we find that problem,
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我們的所有場所和機構里,
06:40
that the system of accountability
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那就是問責制度
06:43
that is meant to secure trustworthiness
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本應該用來保護可信度
06:45
and evidence of trustworthiness
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和用來做可信度的證據
06:48
is actually doing the opposite.
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但它卻做著相反的事情。
06:50
It is distracting people who have to do difficult tasks,
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它使做複雜工作的人們分心,
06:54
like midwives, from doing them
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比如說助產師,
06:57
by requiring them to tick the boxes, as we say.
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讓他們去勾選表格框框而不是讓他們去助產。
07:00
You can all give your own examples there.
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你也可以舉你自己身上的例子。
07:02
So so much for the aim.
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這就是目標。
07:04
The aim, I think, is more trustworthiness,
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我認為,目標更在於是可信度,
07:07
and that is going to be different
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如果我們嘗試去做一個值得信任的人
07:09
if we are trying to be trustworthy
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更把我們可信度傳遞給別人
07:11
and communicate our trustworthiness to other people,
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那就是另外一件不同的事了。
07:14
and if we are trying to judge whether other people
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如果我們嘗試要去判斷是否他人
07:17
or office-holders or politicians are trustworthy.
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政府官員或政客們是否值得信任,
07:20
It's not easy. It is judgment, and simple reaction,
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那真是不容易。這些是判斷,反應,
07:25
attitudes, don't do adequately here.
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和態度都遠遠不夠的。
07:30
Now thirdly, the task.
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現在我們來談第三點,任務。
07:33
Calling the task rebuilding trust, I think,
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把任務定位重建信任,我認為,
07:37
also gets things backwards.
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同樣是起到了適得其反的功效。
07:38
It suggests that you and I should rebuild trust.
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這個目標建議的是你我都應該重建信任。
07:43
Well, we can do that for ourselves.
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好吧,我們可以為我們自己做這個。
07:46
We can rebuild a bit of trustworthiness.
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我們也可以重建一點的可信度。
07:48
We can do it two people together trying to improve trust.
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我們可以在兩個人之間嘗試去提升信任。
07:52
But trust, in the end, is distinctive
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但是,說到底,信任是獨特的,
07:55
because it's given by other people.
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因為它是由他人給予的。
07:58
You can't rebuild what other people give you.
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你不能重建別人給予你的東西。
08:01
You have to give them the basis
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你必須給他們給予你他們信任
08:04
for giving you their trust.
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的根據。
08:07
So you have to, I think, be trustworthy.
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所以我認為,你必須,值得信任。
08:10
And that, of course, is because you can't fool
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而那個,當然,是你通常不能夠
08:12
all of the people all of the time, usually.
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欺騙所有人,一直欺騙可以得到的。
08:16
But you also have to provide usable evidence
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但你也必須提供有用的證據
08:21
that you are trustworthy.
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來證明你值得信任。
08:22
How to do it?
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要怎麼做呢?
08:24
Well every day, all over the place, it's being done
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每天,每個地方,這都在
08:27
by ordinary people, by officials, by institutions,
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被普通的個人、官員、機構
08:30
quite effectively.
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有效的實踐著。
08:32
Let me give you a simple commercial example.
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讓我給你們一個簡單的商業案例。
08:35
The shop where I buy my socks says I may take them back,
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我買襪子的商店跟我說,我可以退還這些商品,
08:39
and they don't ask any questions.
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他們不會詢問原因。
08:41
They take them back and give me the money
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他們把襪子收回並且退還給我錢
08:43
or give me the pair of socks of the color I wanted.
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或者給我一雙我想要顏色的襪子。
08:46
That's super. I trust them
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這很好,所以我相信他們。
08:48
because they have made themselves vulnerable to me.
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因為他們使自己放在一個弱勢地位。
08:51
I think there's a big lesson in that.
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我認為其中有大道理。
08:53
If you make yourself vulnerable to the other party,
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如果你讓自己相對於另一方弱勢,
08:56
then that is very good evidence that you are trustworthy
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那麼你就有足夠的證據來證明你是可信任的
09:00
and you have confidence in what you are saying.
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而且你對自己所說的有信心。
09:03
So in the end, I think what we are aiming for
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所以,最後,我認為要發現我們所要追求的
09:06
is not very difficult to discern.
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並不十分困難。
09:09
It is relationships in which people are trustworthy
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那就是可信任人們之間的關係,
09:13
and can judge when and how the other person
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并可以判斷何時以及如何
09:17
is trustworthy.
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他人是可信的。
09:18
So the moral of all this is,
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這其中的寓意在於,
09:22
we need to think much less about trust,
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我們需要少想一些信任,
09:25
let alone about attitudes of trust
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更不要去想對待信任這一話題的態度、
09:29
detected or mis-detected by opinion polls,
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檢測或誤解民意調查,
09:33
much more about being trustworthy,
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而更需要想是如何成為可信的人,
09:35
and how you give people adequate, useful
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以及你如何給予人們足夠的、有用的
09:39
and simple evidence that you're trustworthy.
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和簡單的證據來證明你是可信的。
09:42
Thanks.
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謝謝。
09:43
(Applause)
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(鼓掌)
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