Refugees have the right to be protected | António Guterres

Prevodilac: Branislav Bakotić Lektor: Tijana Mihajlović

Bruno Giussani: Commissioner, thank you for coming to TED.

Bruno Đuzani: Komesare, hvala vam što ste došli na TED.

Antonio Gutereš: Zadovoljstvo mi je.

António Guterres: Pleasure.

BG: Let's start with a figure.

BĐ: Počnimo brojkom.

Tokom 2015, skoro milion izbeglica i migranata je stiglo u Evropu

During 2015, almost one million refugees and migrants arrived in Europe

from many different countries,

iz mnogo različitih država,

of course, from Syria and Iraq, but also from Afghanistan

naravno, iz Sirije i Iraka, ali i iz Afganistana,

and Bangladesh and Eritrea and elsewhere.

Bangladeša i Eritreje i drugih zemalja.

And there have been reactions of two different kinds:

Dve su različite vrste reakcija koje se javljaju,

welcoming parties and border fences.

znaci dobrodošlice i ograde na granicama.

But I want to look at it a little bit

Želim malo da to sagledam

from the short-term and the long-term perspective.

iz kratkoročne i dugoročne perspektive.

And the first question is very simple:

Prvo pitanje je vrlo jednostavno.

Why has the movement of refugees spiked so fast in the last six months?

Zašto se kretanje izbeglica tako naglo uvećalo u zadnjih šest meseci?

AG: Pa, mislim da je, u suštini, okidač za ovo ogromno uvećanje

AG: Well, I think, basically, what triggered this huge increase

was the Syrian refugee group.

bila sirijska izbeglička grupa.

There has been an increased movement into Europe from Africa, from Asia,

Postojalo je povećano kretanje u Evropu iz Afrike, iz Azije,

ali sporo rastuće, a odjednom se javlja to masivno uvećanje

but slowly growing, and all of a sudden we had this massive increase

in the first months of this year.

u prvim mesecima ove godine.

Why? I think there are three reasons,

Zašto?

Mislim da postoje tri razloga, dva dugoročna i okidač.

two long-term ones and the trigger.

The long-term ones, in relation to Syrians,

Oni dugoročni u vezi sa Sirijcima

is that hope is less and less clear for people.

su to da je ljudima nada sve nejasnija.

I mean, they look at their own country

Mislim, kad pogledaju svoju zemlju

and they don't see much hope to go back home,

ne vide mnogo nade da se vrate kući u dogledno vreme,

because there is no political solution,

jer nema političkog rešenja,

so there is no light at the end of the tunnel.

tako da nema svetla na kraju tunela.

Second, the living conditions

Drugo, uslovi života

Sirijaca u susednim državama se pogoršavaju.

of the Syrians in the neighboring countries have been deteriorating.

Skoro smo imali istraživanje sa Svetskom bankom

We just had research with the World Bank,

and 87 percent of the Syrians in Jordan

i 87 posto Sirijaca u Jordanu

i 93 posto Sirijaca u Libanu

and 93 percent of the Syrians in Lebanon

live below the national poverty lines.

živi ispod nacionalnih granica siromaštva.

Only half of the children go to school,

Samo polovina dece ide u školu,

which means that people are living very badly.

što znači da ljudi žive veoma loše.

Not only are they refugees, out of home,

Ne samo da su izbeglice, van svog doma,

not only have they suffered what they have suffered,

ne samo da su prošli kroz ono kroz šta su prošli,

već žive u veoma, veoma dramatičnim uslovima.

but they are living in very, very dramatic conditions.

Zatim, okidač je bio trenutak kada se, odjednom,

And then the trigger was when all of a sudden,

international aid decreased.

međunarodna pomoć smanjila.

The World Food Programme was forced, for lack of resources,

Svetski program za hranu je morao, zbog manjka sredstava,

to cut by 30 percent food support to the Syrian refugees.

da smanji za 30 posto pomoć u hrani za sirijske izbeglice.

They're not allowed to work,

Nije im dozvoljeno da rade,

so they are totally dependent on international support,

tako da u potpunosti zavise od međunarodne pomoći,

and they felt, "The world is abandoning us."

i pomislili su: „Svet nas napušta.“

To je, po mom mišljenju, bio okidač.

And that, in my opinion, was the trigger.

Odjednom je nastala navala

All of a sudden, there was a rush,

and people started to move in large numbers

i ljudi su počeli da idu u velikom broju

and, to be absolutely honest,

i, da budem potpuno iskren,

if I had been in the same situation

da sam ja bio u istoj situaciji

and I would have been brave enough to do it,

i da sam bio dovoljno hrabar da to uradim,

I think I would have done the same.

mislim da bih uradio istu stvar.

BG: But I think what surprised many people is it's not only sudden,

BĐ: Ali mislim da je mnoge ljude iznenadilo to što ne samo da je naprasno,

but it wasn't supposed to be sudden.

već nije trebalo da bude naprasno.

Rat u Siriji se dešava već pet godina.

The war in Syria has been happening for five years.

Milioni izbeglica su u kampovima, selima i gradovima oko Sirije.

Millions of refugees are in camps and villages and towns around Syria.

Vi ste sami upozorili na situaciju

You have yourself warned about the situation

and about the consequences of a breakdown of Libya, for example,

i na posledice sloma Libije, na primer,

and yet Europe looked totally unprepared.

a opet je Evropa delovala potpuno nespremno.

AG: Well, unprepared because divided,

AG: Pa, nespremna zato što je podeljena,

a kad ste podeljeni, ne želite da priznate realnost.

and when you are divided, you don't want to recognize the reality.

You prefer to postpone decisions,

Više volite da odlažete odluke,

because you do not have the capacity to make them.

jer nemate kapacitet da ih donesete.

And the proof is that even when the spike occurred,

Dokaz je to da je, čak i kada se uvećanje desilo,

Europe remained divided

Evropa ostala podeljena

and was unable to put in place a mechanism to manage the situation.

i nije bila u mogućnosti da uspostavi mehanizam da upravlja situacijom.

You talk about one million people.

Govorite o milion ljudi.

It looks enormous,

Izgleda ogromno,

but the population of the European Union is 550 million people,

ali broj stanovnika Evropske unije je 550 miliona,

što znači da govorimo o odnosu jedan na svakih 500 Evropljana.

which means we are talking about one per every [550] Europeans.

Now, in Lebanon, we have one refugee per three Lebanese.

Sada, u Libanu, imamo jednu izbeglicu na tri Libanca.

And Lebanon? Struggling, of course, but it's managing.

A Liban? Bori se, naravno, ali uspeva.

So, the question is: is this something that could have been managed

Dakle, pitanje je da li je ovo nešto što je moglo biti rešeno

if -- not mentioning the most important thing,

da je - ne pominjući najvažniju stvar,

koja bi se ticala izvornih uzroka,

which would have been addressing the root causes,

ali zaboravljajući izvorne uzroke za sada,

but forgetting about root causes for now,

looking at the phenomenon as it is --

gledajući na pojavu takvu kakva je -

if Europe were able to come together in solidarity

da je Evropa bila u stanju da se solidarno udruži,

to create an adequate reception capacity of entry points?

da stvori prikladan kapacitet prijema ulaznih tačaka.

But for that, the countries at entry points need to be massively supported,

Međutim, za to, države na ulaznim tačkama treba da budu znatno potpomognute

and then screening the people with security checks

i da onda skeniraju ljude sigurnosnim proverama

and all the other mechanisms,

i svim drugim mehanizmima,

distributing those that are coming into all European countries,

raspoređujući one koji dolaze u sve evropske zemlje,

according to the possibilities of each country.

u skladu sa mogućnostima svake zemlje.

I mean, if you look at the relocation program

Mislim, ako pogledate program premeštanja koji je odobrila Komisija,

that was approved by the Commission, always too little too late,

stalno je nedovoljan i zakasneo,

ili Savet, nedovoljan i zakasneo -

or by the Council, too little too late --

BĐ: Već je pred kolapsom.

BG: It's already breaking down.

AG: Moja zemlja treba da primi četiri hiljade.

AG: My country is supposed to receive four thousand.

Četiri hiljade u Portugalu ne znači ništa.

Four thousand in Portugal means nothing.

Tako da je ovo savršeno rešivo ako se rešava,

So this is perfectly manageable if it is managed,

but in the present circumstances, the pressure is at the point of entry,

ali, u sadašnjim okolnostima, pritisak je na tačkama ulaska,

a onda, kako se ljudi kreću na ovaj haotičan način kroz Balkan,

and then, as people move in this chaotic way through the Balkans,

then they come to Germany, Sweden, basically, and Austria.

onda dođu u Nemačku, Švedsku, u suštini, i Austriju.

To su tri zemlje koje, na kraju, primaju izbeglice.

They are the three countries that are, in the end, receiving the refugees.

The rest of Europe is looking without doing much.

Ostatak Evrope gleda i ne preduzima mnogo.

BĐ: Dopustite da iznesem tri pitanja,

BG: Let me try to bring up three questions,

playing a bit devil's advocate.

glumeći malo đavoljeg advokata.

Pokušaću da ih postavim, da ih učinim manje zabrinjavajućim.

I'll try to ask them, make them blunt.

Ipak, mislim da su pitanja itekako prisutna

But I think the questions are very present

u glavama mnogih ljudi u Evropi sada.

in the minds of many people in Europe right now,

Prvo se, naravno, tiče brojki.

The first, of course, is about numbers.

You say 550 million versus one million is not much, but realistically,

Kažete da 550 miliona prema milion nije mnogo, ali, realno gledano,

koliko ljudi Evropa može uzeti?

how many people can Europe take?

AG: Pa, to je pitanje koje nema odgovora,

AG: Well, that is a question that has no answer,

because refugees have the right to be protected.

jer izbeglice imaju pravo da budu zaštićene.

And there is such a thing as international law,

Postoji nešto što se zove međunarodno pravo,

so there is no way you can say, "I take 10,000 and that's finished."

tako da ne možete nikako reći: „Uzimam 10 000 i to je to.“

I remind you of one thing:

Podsetiću vas na jednu stvar.

in Turkey, at the beginning of the crisis, I remember one minister saying,

U Turskoj, na početku krize, sećam se da je jedan ministar rekao,

„Turska će moći da primi do 100 000 ljudi.“

"Turkey will be able to receive up to 100,000 people."

Turkey has now two million three-hundred thousand

Turska sada ima dva miliona trista hiljada

or something of the sort, if you count all refugees.

ili nešto tako, ako zbrojite sve izbeglice.

Tako, mislim da nije u redu reći koliko možemo da uzmemo.

So I don't think it's fair to say how many we can take.

What it is fair to say is: how we can we organize ourselves

Ono što je u redu reći jeste: „Kako se možemo organizovati

to assume our international responsibilities?

da prihvatimo svoje međunarodne odgovornosti?“

And Europe has not been able to do so,

A Evropa nije u mogućnosti da to uradi,

jer, u suštini, Evropa je podeljena jer nema solidarnosti

because basically, Europe is divided because there is no solidarity

in the European project.

u evropskom projektu.

And it's not only about refugees; there are many other areas.

Ne samo kad su u pitanju izbeglice; na mnogim drugim poljima.

Da budemo iskreni, ovo je trenutak u kojem nam treba više Evrope

And let's be honest, this is the moment in which we need more Europe

instead of less Europe.

umesto manje Evrope.

But as the public less and less believes in European institutions,

Međutim, budući da javnost sve manje veruje u evropske institucije,

it is also each time more difficult to convince the public

takođe je svaki put teže ubediti javnost

that we need more Europe to solve these problems.

da nam treba Evropa da rešimo ove probleme.

BG: We seem to be at the point

BĐ: Ovo se čini kao trenutak

u kojem brojevi uzrokuju političke preokrete, naročito lokalno.

where the numbers turn into political shifts, particularly domestically.

Ponovo smo to videli ovog vikenda u Francuskoj,

We saw it again this weekend in France,

ali iznova i iznova u mnogim zemljama:

but we have seen it over and over in many countries:

u Poljskoj, Danskoj, Švajcarskoj i drugde,

in Poland and in Denmark and in Switzerland and elsewhere,

gde se raspoloženje drastično menja zbog brojeva,

where the mood changes radically because of the numbers,

iako isti nisu vrlo značajni u apsolutnim brojevima.

although they are not very significant in absolute numbers.

The Prime Minister of --

Premijer -

AG: But, if I may, on these:

AG: Ali, ako mogu, na ovo -

Mislim, šta Evropljanin vidi kod kuće

I mean, what does a European see at home

in a village where there are no migrants?

u selu gde nema migranata?

What a European sees is, on television,

Ono što Evropljanin vidi je, na televiziji,

every single day, a few months ago, opening the news every single day,

svakog dana, pre par meseci, to otvara vesti svakog dana,

a crowd coming, uncontrolled,

gomilu koja dolazi, nekontrolisanu,

moving from border to border,

krećući se od granice do granice,

and the images on television were of hundreds

i slike na televiziji koje prikazuju stotine ili hiljade ljudi koji se kreću.

or thousands of people moving.

And the idea is that nobody is taking care of it --

Mišljenje je da se niko ne brine za to -

this is happening without any kind of management.

to se dešava bez ikakve vrste kontrole.

Tako je njihovo mišljenje bilo: „Dolaze u moje selo.“

And so their idea was, "They are coming to my village."

So there was this completely false idea that Europe was being invaded

Tako je nastalo to potpuno pogrešno mišljenje

da je Evropa pod invazijom

and our way of life is going to change, and everything will --

i da će se naš stil života promeniti, kao i sve ostalo -

And the problem is that if this had been properly managed,

Problem je taj što, da se s tim ljudima postupilo kako treba,

if people had been properly received,

da su ljudi bili primljeni kako treba,

welcomed, sheltered at point of entry, screened at point of entry,

da su imali dobrodošlicu, sklonište i bili provereni na mestu ulaska,

a zatim avionom prebačeni u različite evropske zemlje,

and the moved by plane to different European countries,

this would not have scared people.

to ne bi uplašilo ljude.

But, unfortunately, we have a lot of people scared,

Ipak, nažalost, imamo mnoge ljude koji su uplašeni,

just because Europe was not able to do the job properly.

samo zbog toga što Evropa nije mogla da obavi posao kako treba.

BG: But there are villages in Germany

BĐ: Ali u Nemačkoj postoje sela

with 300 inhabitants and 1,000 refugees.

sa 300 stanovnika i 1 000 izbeglica.

Dakle, koji je vaš stav?

So, what's your position?

How do you imagine these people reacting?

Kako ti ljudi treba da reaguju?

AG: Da postoji pravilna kontrola situacije

AG: If there would be a proper management of the situation

i pravilno raspoređivanje ljudi širom Evrope,

and the proper distribution of people all over Europe,

uvek biste imali procenat koji sam pomenuo,

you would always have the percentage that I mentioned:

one per each 2,000.

jedan na svakih 2 000.

Stvari se ne rešavaju ispravno

It is because things are not properly managed

that in the end we have situations

i zato na kraju imamo situacije

s kojima je potpuno nemoguće živeti, a, naravno, ako imate selo -

that are totally impossible to live with, and of course if you have a village --

in Lebanon, there are many villages

u Libanu, postoje mnoga sela

u kojima je više Sirijaca nego Libanaca; Liban živi s tim.

that have more Syrians than Lebanese; Lebanon has been living with that.

I'm not asking for the same to happen in Europe,

Ne tražim da se isto desi u Evropi,

da sva evropska sela imaju više izbeglica nego stanovnika.

for all European villages to have more refugees than inhabitants.

Ono što tražim jeste da Evropa uradi posao kako treba

What I am asking is for Europe to do the job properly,

and to be able to organize itself to receive people

i da bude u stanju da se organizuje da primi ljude

as other countries in the world were forced to do in the past.

kao što su druge zemlje u svetu to morale u prošlosti.

BG: So, if you look at the global situation not only at Europe --

BĐ: Ako pogledate globalnu situaciju, ne samo Evropu -

(Aplauz) BĐ: Da!

(Applause)

(Aplauz)

BG: Yes!

(Applause)

BG: If you look at the global situation, so, not only at Europe,

BĐ: Ako pogledate globalnu situaciju, dakle, ne samo Evropu,

I know you can make a long list of countries

znam da možete napraviti dug spisak zemalja

koje baš ne prihvataju odgovornost,

that are not really stepping up,

ali me više interesuje druga strana -

but I'm more interested in the other part --

is there somebody who's doing the right thing?

da li postoji neko ko radi pravu stvar?

AG: Well, 86 percent of the refugees in the world

AG: Pa, 86 posto izbeglica u svetu

are in the developing world.

je u zemljama u razvoju.

And if you look at countries like Ethiopia --

Ako pogledate zemlje kao što je Etiopija -

Ethiopia has received more than 600,000 refugees.

Etiopija je primila više od 600 000 izbeglica.

All the borders in Ethiopia are open.

Sve granice u Etiopiji su otvorene.

And they have, as a policy,

Njihova politika je,

they call the "people to people" policy that every refugee should be received.

a nazivaju tu politiku „ljudi za ljude“, da svaka izbeglica treba biti primljena.

And they have South Sudanese,

Imaju ljude iz Južnog Sudana, iz Sudana, iz Somalije.

they have Sudanese, they have Somalis.

They have all the neighbors.

Imaju sve susede.

They have Eritreans.

Imaju Eritrejce.

And, in general,

I, generalno,

African countries are extremely welcoming of refugees coming,

afričke zemlje su izuzetno gostoljubive prema izbeglicama,

and I would say that in the Middle East

a rekao bih da smo na Bliskom istoku

i u Aziji uočili tendenciju da granice budu otvorene.

and in Asia, we have seen a tendency for borders to be open.

Now we see some problems with the Syrian situation,

Sada uočavamo neke probleme u vezi sa sirijskom situacijom,

as the Syrian situation evolved into also a major security crisis,

budući da je sirijska situacija izrasla i u veliku bezbednosnu krizu,

but the truth is that for a large period,

ali istina je da su dugo vremena

sve granice na Bliskom istoku bile otvorene.

all borders in the Middle East were open.

Za Avganistance su, na primer,

The truth is that for Afghans,

the borders of Pakistan and Iran were open for, at the time,

granice Pakistana i Irana bile otvorene za, u to vreme,

six million Afghans that came.

6 miliona Avganistanaca koji su došli.

So I would say that even today, the trend in the developing world

Tako, rekao bih da je i danas trend u zemljama u razvoju

has been for borders to be open.

da granice budu otvorene.

The trend in the developed world is for these questions to become

Trend u razvijenim zemljama je da ova pitanja postaju sve složenija,

more and more complex,

naročito kada je u javnom mnjenju prisutna

especially when there is, in the public opinion,

a mixture of discussions between refugee protections on one side

mešavina rasprava između zaštite izbeglica s jedne strane

and security questions -- in my opinion, misinterpreted -- on the other side.

i sigurnosnih pitanja - po mom mišljenju, pogrešno protumačenih - sa druge.

BG: We'll come back to that too,

BĐ: Vratićemo se i na to,

ali pomenuli ste smanjenje finansiranja i vaučera

but you mentioned the cutting of funding and the vouchers

iz Svetskog programa za hranu.

from the World Food Programme.

To odražava generalno smanjeno finansiranje organizacija

That reflects the general underfunding of the organizations

koje rade na ovim problemima.

working on these issues.

Now that the world seems to have woken up,

Sada kada se čini da se svet probudio,

are you getting more funding and more support,

dobijate li više novca i više pomoći,

or it's still the same?

ili je još uvek isto?

AG: We are getting more support.

AG: Dobijamo više pomoći.

Rekao bih da se približavamo nivoima od prošle godine.

I would say that we are coming close to the levels of last year.

Tokom leta je bilo mnogo gore.

We were much worse during the summer.

But that is clearly insufficient to address the needs of the people

Međutim, to je definitivno nedovoljno

da se uhvatimo u koštac sa potrebama ljudi i potrebama zemalja koje pomažu ljudima.

and address the needs of the countries

that are supporting the people.

A ovde postoji osnovni pregled kriterijuma, ciljeva,

And here we have a basic review of the criteria, the objectives,

prioriteta razvojne saradnje koji su potrebni.

the priorities of development cooperation that is required.

For instance, Lebanon and Jordan are middle-income countries.

Na primer, Liban i Jordan su zemlje srednjih prihoda.

Because they are middle-income countries,

Zbog toga što su zemlje srednjih prihoda,

they cannot receive soft loans or grants from the World Bank.

ne mogu dobiti povoljne kredite ili grantove od Svetske banke.

Now, today this doesn't make any sense,

Danas to nema nikakvog smisla,

zato što obezbeđuju globalno javno dobro.

because they are providing a global public good.

They have millions of refugees there,

Imaju milione izbeglica tamo

i, da budem iskren, oni su stubovi stabilnosti u regionu,

and to be honest, they are pillars of stability in the region,

with all the difficulties they face,

sa svim teškoćama koje imaju

and the first line of defense of our collective security.

i prva linija odbrane naše zajedničke sigurnosti.

So it doesn't make sense

Tako, nema smisla da te zemlje nisu prvi prioritet

that these countries are not a first priority

in development cooperation policies.

u politikama razvojne saradnje.

A nisu.

And they are not.

And not only do the refugees live in very dramatic circumstances

I ne samo da izbeglice žive u veoma dramatičnim okolnostima

inside those countries,

u tim zemljama,

nego i same lokalne zajednice trpe,

but the local communities themselves are suffering,

zato što su plate smanjene,

because salaries went down,

zato što je više nezaposlenih,

because there are more unemployed,

zato što su cene uopšte i cene zakupa povećane.

because prices and rents went up.

And, of course, if you look at today's situation

I, naravno, ako pogledate današnje stanje

pokazatelja u tim državama,

of the indicators in these countries,

jasno je da, naročito njihovi siromašni slojevi stanovništva

it is clear that, especially their poor groups of the population,

are living worse and worse because of the crisis they are facing.

žive sve lošije zbog krize s kojom se suočavaju.

BĐ: Ko treba da obezbedi tu pomoć?

BG: Who should be providing this support?

Svaka zemlja ponaosob, međunarodne organizacije, Evropska unija?

Country by country, international organizations, the European Union?

Who should be coming up with this support?

Ko treba da osigura tu pomoć?

AG: Treba da udružimo sve snage.

AG: We need to join all efforts.

Jasno je da je bilateralna saradnja od suštinske važnosti.

It's clear that bilateral cooperation is essential.

It's clear that multilateral cooperation is essential.

Jasno je da je multilateralna saradnja ključna.

It's clear that international financial institutions should have flexibility

Jasno je da međunarodne finansijske institucije treba da budu fleksibilne

da bi bile u mogućnosti da još više ulažu u pomoć ovim zemljama.

in order to be able to invest more massively

in support to these countries.

We need to combine all the instruments and to understand that today,

Treba da kombinujemo sva sredstva i da shvatimo da danas,

in protracted situations, at a certain moment,

u otegnutim situacijama, u određenom trenutku,

da nema više smisla praviti razliku

that it doesn't make sense anymore to make a distinction

between humanitarian aid and development aid

između humanitarne i razvojne pomoći ili procesa razvoja.

or development processes.

Because you are talking about children in school,

Zato što govorite o deci u školama,

you are talking about health,

govorite o zdravlju,

you are talking about infrastructure that is overcrowded.

govorite o infrastrukturi koja je prenatrpana.

You are talking about things that require a long-term perspective,

Govorite o stvarima koje zahtevaju dugoročnu perspektivu,

a development perspective

perspektivu razvoja,

and not only an emergency humanitarian aid perspective.

a ne samo perspektivu hitne humanitarne pomoći.

BĐ: Želeo bih vaš komentar na nešto što je jutros bilo u novinama.

BG: I would like your comment on something

that was in newspapers this morning.

It is a statement made by the current front-runner

To je izjava trenutno vodećeg kandidata

for the Republican nomination for US President, Donald Trump.

republikanaca za predsednika SAD-a, Donalda Trampa.

Yesterday, he said this.

Juče je rekao ovo.

(Smeh)

(Laughter)

Ne, poslušajte ovo. Zanimljivo je.

No, listen to this. It's interesting.

I quote: "I am calling for a total and complete shutdown

Citiram: „Pozivam na totalnu i kompletnu zabranu

of Muslims entering the US,

ulaska muslimana u SAD,

until our country's representatives can figure out what's going on."

dok predstavnici naše zemlje ne shvate šta se događa.“

How do you react to that?

Kako reagujete na to?

AG: Well, it's not only Donald Trump.

AG: Pa, ne radi se samo o Donaldu Trampu.

We have seen several people around the world

Videli smo kako mnogi ljudi širom sveta

sa političkom odgovornošću govore, na primer,

with political responsibility saying, for instance,

da muslimanske izbeglice ne treba primiti.

that Muslims refugees should not be received.

And the reason why they say this

Razlog zbog kojeg to govore

is because they think that by doing or saying this,

je to što misle da radeći ili govoreći to štite sigurnost svojih zemalja.

they are protecting the security of their countries.

Now, I've been in government.

Ja sam bio u vladi.

I am very keen on the need for governments

Dobro razumem potrebu vlada

da zaštite sigurnost svojih zemalja i svog naroda.

to protect the security of their countries

and their people.

But if you say, like that,

Međutim, ako kažete, na taj način,

in the US or in any European country,

u SAD-u ili u bilo kojoj evropskoj zemlji:

"We are going to close our doors to Muslim refugees,"

„Zatvorićemo vrata muslimanskim izbeglicama,“

ono što govorite je najbolja moguća pomoć

what you are saying is the best possible help

for the propaganda of terrorist organizations.

propagandi terorističkih organizacija,

jer ono što govorite -

Because what you are saying --

(Applause)

(Aplauz)

What you are saying will be heard by all the Muslims in your own country,

Ono što govorite će čuti svi muslimani u vašoj zemlji,

and it will pave the way for the recruitment

a to će prokrčiti put regrutovanju

and the mechanisms that, through technology,

i mehanizmima koje, kroz tehnologiju,

Daesh and al-Nusra, al-Qaeda, and all those other groups

ID, Al Nusra, Al Kaida i sve te druge grupe

are today penetrating in our societies.

danas uvode u naša društva.

To im samo govori: „U pravu ste, mi smo protiv vas.“

And it's just telling them, "You are right, we are against you."

Tako, očigledno, to stvara u društvima koja su multietnička,

So obviously, this is creating in societies that are all multiethnic,

multi-religious, multicultural,

multireligiozna, multikulturalna,

this is creating a situation in which, really,

to stvara situaciju u kojoj je, zaista,

it is much easier for the propaganda of these terrorist organizations

mnogo lakše da propaganda ovih terorističkih organizacija

bude delotvorna u regrutovanju ljudi za teroristička dejstva

to be effective in recruiting people for terror acts

within the countries where these kinds of sentences are expressed.

u zemljama u kojima se ovakve vrste rečenica izjavljuju.

BG: Have the recent attacks in Paris and the reactions to them

BĐ: Da li su nedavni napadi u Parizu i reakcije na iste

made your job more difficult?

učinili vaš posao težim?

AG: Undoubtedly.

AG: Nesumnjivo.

BG: In what sense?

BĐ: U kom smislu?

AG: In the sense that, I mean, for many people the first reaction

AG: U smislu da, mislim, kod mnogih ljudi je prva reakcija

in relation to these kinds of terrorist attacks is: close all borders --

na ovaj vid terorističkih napada je zatvaranje svih granica -

not understanding that the terrorist problem in Europe is largely homegrown.

ne shvatajući da je terorizam u Evropi u velikoj meri domaći.

Imamo hiljade i hiljade evropskih boraca u Siriji i u Iraku,

We have thousands and thousands of European fighters in Syria and in Iraq,

so this is not something that you solve by just not allowing Syrians to come in.

tako da to nije nešto što se rešava samo nepuštanjem Sirijaca da uđu.

And I must say, I am convinced

I, moram da kažem, uveren sam

that the passport that appeared,

da je pasoš koji se pojavio,

koji je, verujem, ostavljen od strane osobe koja se -

I believe, was put by the person who has blown --

BG: -- himself up, yeah.

BĐ: - raznela, da.

AG: [I believe] it was on purpose,

AG: Verujem da je to bilo namerno,

because part of the strategies of Daesh is against refugees,

zato što je deo strategije ID-a usmeren protiv izbeglica,

zato što vide izbeglice kao ljude koji treba da budu sa kalifatom,

because they see refugees as people that should be with the caliphate

and are fleeing to the crusaders.

a beže krstašima.

And I think that is part of Daesh's strategy to make Europe react,

Mislim da je deo strategije ID-a da natera Evropu da reaguje,

zatvarajući granice muslimanskim izbeglicama

closing its doors to Muslim refugees

and having an hostility towards Muslims inside Europe,

i odnoseći se neprijateljski prema muslimanima u Evropi,

samo olakšavajući rad ID-a.

exactly to facilitate Daesh's work.

And my deep belief is that it was not the refugee movement

Moje duboko uverenje je da kretanje izbeglica nije bilo

that triggered terrorism.

okidač za terorizam.

I think, as I said,

Mislim, rekao sam već,

da je u suštini terorizam u Evropi danas domaći pokret

essentially terrorism in Europe is today a homegrown movement

in relation to the global situation that we are facing,

u odnosu na globalnu situaciju sa kojom se suočavamo,

a upravo treba da dokažemo tim grupama da nisu u pravu

and what we need is exactly to prove these groups wrong,

by welcoming and integrating effectively

primajući i delotvorno integrišući

those that are coming from that part of the world.

one koji dolaze iz tog dela sveta.

And another thing that I believe is that to a large extent,

Takođe smatram da je, u velikoj meri,

what we are today paying for in Europe

ono za šta danas plaćamo cenu u Evropi

is the failures of integration models

neuspeh modela integracije

that didn't work in the '60s, in the '70s, in the '80s,

koji nisu uspeli u '60-im,' 70-im, '80-im,

in relation to big migration flows that took place at that time

u vezi sa velikim migracionim tokovima koji su se odvijali tada

and generated what is today in many of the people, for instance,

i proizveli ono što je danas

kod mnogih ljudi, na primer, druge generacije,

of the second generation of communities,

a situation of feeling marginalized,

stanje ispunjeno osećajem marginalizovanosti,

nedostatkom posla,

having no jobs,

having improper education,

neprikladnim obrazovanjem,

životom u nekim od kvartova koji nisu prikladno snabdeveni

living in some of the neighborhoods that are not adequately provided

by public infrastructure.

javnom infrastrukturom.

And this kind of uneasiness, sometimes even anger,

Za tu vrstu nelagode, nekad i besa,

that exists in this second generation

koja postoji kod te druge generacije

is largely due to the failure of integration policies,

u velikoj meri je zaslužan neuspeh politika integracije,

to the failure of what should have been a much stronger investment

neuspeh onoga što je trebalo da bude mnogo veće investiranje

in creating the conditions for people to live together and respect each other.

u stvaranje uslova da ljudi žive zajedno i poštuju jedni druge.

For me it is clear.

Za mene je očigledno -

(Applause)

(Aplauz)

Za mene je očigledno da će sva društva biti multietnička, multikulturalna,

For me it is clear that all societies will be multiethnic, multicultural,

multi-religious in the future.

multireligiozna u budućnosti.

To try to avoid it is, in my opinion, impossible.

Pokušati to izbeći je, po mom mišljenju, nemoguće.

And for me it's a good thing that they will be like that,

Za mene je dobra stvar što će biti tako,

but I also recognize that, for that to work properly,

ali takođe znam da je, da bi to funkcionisalo na pravi način,

you need a huge investment

potrebno ogromno investiranje u socijalnu koheziju vlastitih društava.

in the social cohesion of your own societies.

And Europe, to a large extent, failed in that investment

A Evropa, u velikoj meri, nije uspela u tom investiranju

in the past few decades.

u proteklih par decenija.

BĐ: Pitanje - odlazite sa funkcije na kraju godine, nakon 10 godina.

BG: Question: You are stepping down from your job at the end of the year,

after 10 years.

If you look back at 2005,

Ako se osvrnete na 2005. godinu,

when you entered that office for the first time, what do you see?

kad ste ušli u tu kancelariju po prvi put, šta vidite?

AG: Well, look:

AG: Pa, vidite,

In 2005, we were helping one million people go back home

u 2005. godini, pomagali smo da se milion ljudi vrati kući

in safety and dignity, because conflicts had ended.

sigurno i dostojanstveno, jer su sukobi bili okončani.

Last year, we helped 124,000.

Prošle godine, pomogli smo 124 000 ljudi.

In 2005, we had about 38 million people displaced by conflict in the world.

U 2005. godini, imali smo oko 38 miliona ljudi

raseljenih zbog sukoba u svetu.

Today, we have more than 60 million.

Danas imamo više od 60 miliona.

At that time, we had had, recently,

U to vreme, imali smo, nedavno,

some conflicts that were solved.

neke sukobe koji su razrešeni.

Now, we see a multiplication of new conflicts

Sada vidimo umnožavanje novih sukoba

and the old conflicts never died:

a stari sukobi nisu iščezli -

Afghanistan, Somalia, Democratic Republic of Congo.

Avganistan, Somalija, Demokratska Republika Kongo.

It is clear that the world today is much more dangerous than it was.

Jasno je da je svet danas mnogo opasniji nego što je bio.

Jasno je da je kapacitet međunarodne zajednice

It is clear that the capacity of the international community

to prevent conflicts and to timely solve them,

da spreči sukobe i razreši ih na vreme,

is, unfortunately, much worse than what it was 10 years ago.

nažalost, mnogo gori nego što je bio pre 10 godina.

There are no clear power relations in the world,

Nema jasnih odnosa snaga u svetu,

no global governance mechanisms that work,

nema globalnih mehanizama upravljanja koji deluju,

which means that we live in a situation

što znači da živimo u situaciji

u kojoj su nekažnjivost i nepredvidivost na putu da prevladaju,

where impunity and unpredictability tend to prevail, and that means

a to znači da sve više ljudi pati,

that more and more people suffer,

namely those that are displaced by conflicts.

to jest oni koji su raseljeni usled sukoba.

BG: It's a tradition in American politics

BĐ: U američkoj politici postoji tradicija

that when a President leaves the Oval Office for the last time,

da kada predsednik napusti Ovalnu kancelariju poslednji put,

he leaves a handwritten note on the desk for his successor

ostavi rukom napisanu poruku na stolu svom nasledniku

that walks in a couple of hours later.

koji ulazi nekoliko sati kasnije.

If you had to write such a note to your successor, Filippo Grandi,

Ako biste morali napisati poruku svom nasledniku, Filipu Grandiju,

what would you write?

šta biste napisali?

AG: Well, I don't think I would write any message.

AG: Pa, mislim da ne bih napisao nikakvu poruku.

You know, one of the terrible things when one leaves an office

Jedna od užasnih stvari kada neko napušta kancelariju

is to try to become the backseat driver,

jeste pokušaj da postane sufler,

always telling the new one what to do.

stalno govoreći onom novom šta da radi.

So that, I will not do.

Tako, to neću uraditi.

Kad bih morao nešto da mu kažem,

If I had to say something to him,

bilo bi to: „Budi svoj i daj sve od sebe.“

it would be, "Be yourself, and do your best."

BG: Commissioner, thank you for the job you do.

BĐ: Komesare, hvala vam za posao koji radite.

Hvala vam što ste došli na TED.

Thank you for coming to TED.

(Applause)

(Aplauz)