Refugees have the right to be protected | António Guterres

譯者: 易帆 余 審譯者: WeiChe Lin

Bruno Giussani: Commissioner, thank you for coming to TED.

布魯諾．吉烏撒尼： 委員，感謝您來到 TED 。

安東尼奧．古特雷斯：榮幸之至。

António Guterres: Pleasure.

BG: Let's start with a figure.

BG: 讓我們從數據開始。

During 2015, almost one million refugees and migrants arrived in Europe

2015年期間，將近有 100 萬難民和移民

從不同國家湧入歐洲，

from many different countries,

of course, from Syria and Iraq, but also from Afghanistan

當然，也有來自敘利亞及伊拉克， 也有來自於阿富汗、

and Bangladesh and Eritrea and elsewhere.

孟加拉、厄立特里亞等其他國家的。

And there have been reactions of two different kinds:

人民對此亦有兩種不同的反應：

welcoming parties and border fences.

有歡迎的國家也有拒絕的國家。

But I want to look at it a little bit

但我想從短期和長期的角度

from the short-term and the long-term perspective.

來探討這個問題。

And the first question is very simple:

第一條問題十分簡單：

Why has the movement of refugees spiked so fast in the last six months?

為何難民潮近六個月急速增加？

AG: Well, I think, basically, what triggered this huge increase

AG：我認為，基本上，會有這麼大的升幅

was the Syrian refugee group.

主要是由敘利亞的難民所引發的。

There has been an increased movement into Europe from Africa, from Asia,

來自非洲或亞洲移入歐洲的移民數 一直以來都在增長，

but slowly growing, and all of a sudden we had this massive increase

但成長得很慢，但突然間，

in the first months of this year.

今年年初的幾個月，移民數量突然增加。

Why? I think there are three reasons,

為什麼？我認為有三個原因，

two long-term ones and the trigger.

兩個是長期因素及一個是觸發點。

The long-term ones, in relation to Syrians,

長期因素與敘利亞人有關，

is that hope is less and less clear for people.

他們越來越看不到希望。

我意思是，他們雖然看著自己的國家，

I mean, they look at their own country

and they don't see much hope to go back home,

但看不到回家的希望，

because there is no political solution,

因為政治上沒有解決方法，

so there is no light at the end of the tunnel.

像看不見隧道的盡頭一樣。

Second, the living conditions

第二，敘利亞難民

of the Syrians in the neighboring countries have been deteriorating.

在鄰近國家的生存條件持續惡化。

We just had research with the World Bank,

我們剛和世界銀行做了研究，

and 87 percent of the Syrians in Jordan

87%住在約旦的敘利亞人

and 93 percent of the Syrians in Lebanon

和97%住坐在黎巴嫩的敘利亞人

live below the national poverty lines.

均生活於全國的貧困線之下。

Only half of the children go to school,

只有一半的兒童能上學，

which means that people are living very badly.

這表示人民生活十分艱辛

Not only are they refugees, out of home,

不僅僅是因為是難民們離鄉背井，

not only have they suffered what they have suffered,

還有一直遭受著的磨難，

but they are living in very, very dramatic conditions.

他們同時還生活在非常 非常困苦的條件中。

And then the trigger was when all of a sudden,

再來就是這個觸發點

突然之間國際援助減少了

international aid decreased.

The World Food Programme was forced, for lack of resources,

由於資源匱乏，世界糧食計劃署被迫

to cut by 30 percent food support to the Syrian refugees.

減少30%對敘利亞難民的食物供給。

They're not allowed to work,

難民不被允許工作，

so they are totally dependent on international support,

所以他們完全依賴國際支援

and they felt, "The world is abandoning us."

他們更覺得：「世界正在遺棄我們」

And that, in my opinion, was the trigger.

我認為這就是觸發點。

All of a sudden, there was a rush,

突然之間，風湧而至，

and people started to move in large numbers

人們開始大批遷移。

and, to be absolutely honest,

說真的，

if I had been in the same situation

如果我也面臨相同的狀況，

and I would have been brave enough to do it,

並且有足夠的勇氣，

I think I would have done the same.

我也會那樣做的。

BG: But I think what surprised many people is it's not only sudden,

BG：不過我認為令人意外的 並不僅僅是事發突然，

but it wasn't supposed to be sudden.

而是事情本不該發生得如此突然。

The war in Syria has been happening for five years.

敘利亞的戰爭已經五年了。

Millions of refugees are in camps and villages and towns around Syria.

上百萬的難民居住在敘利亞 周邊的難民營、村莊及城鎮

You have yourself warned about the situation

您自己也曾提醒過 會有這種狀況，

and about the consequences of a breakdown of Libya, for example,

還有，像是您有提到利比亞政府垮台的結果

and yet Europe looked totally unprepared.

但是歐洲看起來似乎毫無準備。

AG: Well, unprepared because divided,

AG:：毫無準備是因為意見分歧，

and when you are divided, you don't want to recognize the reality.

當你意見分歧又不想面對現實時

You prefer to postpone decisions,

你就會選擇遲一點再決定，

because you do not have the capacity to make them.

因為你沒有能力接納那麼多難民。

And the proof is that even when the spike occurred,

證據是，即使當移民潮發生後，

Europe remained divided

歐洲各國仍然意見分歧，

and was unable to put in place a mechanism to manage the situation.

也未能提出適當的機制來管理局面

You talk about one million people.

你剛剛提到有 100 萬難民，

It looks enormous,

看起來很多，

but the population of the European Union is 550 million people,

但歐盟總人口數是 5.5 億，

which means we are talking about one per every [550] Europeans.

即每2000個歐洲人對應1個難民。

Now, in Lebanon, we have one refugee per three Lebanese.

在黎巴嫩，每三個黎巴嫩人 就要應對一個難民。

And Lebanon? Struggling, of course, but it's managing.

而黎巴嫩？很艱辛，當然，但是他們做到了。

So, the question is: is this something that could have been managed

所以問題是：這些是本應可以控制

if -- not mentioning the most important thing,

--暫時先不提最重要而且

which would have been addressing the root causes,

一直被強調的根本原因

but forgetting about root causes for now,

現在也先不要管問題的成因，

looking at the phenomenon as it is --

就只看現象本身--

if Europe were able to come together in solidarity

歐洲是否能團結一致

to create an adequate reception capacity of entry points?

在入境處創造充足的接納能力？

But for that, the countries at entry points need to be massively supported,

但要做到如此， 各國的入境處需要被大量的支援，

and then screening the people with security checks

然後對入境難民進行安檢，

and all the other mechanisms,

並配合其他機制

distributing those that are coming into all European countries,

及根據每個國家的能力

according to the possibilities of each country.

來分配這些湧入歐洲的難民，

I mean, if you look at the relocation program

我的意思是，如果你去看一下 委員會批准的重新安置計劃，

that was approved by the Commission, always too little too late,

總是太少、太遲

or by the Council, too little too late --

或者由市議會批准的 也是太少、太遲

BG: It's already breaking down.

BG：現在已經失敗了

AG: My country is supposed to receive four thousand.

AG：我的國家原本應該接收四千人

Four thousand in Portugal means nothing.

四千人對葡萄牙來說不算什麼。

So this is perfectly manageable if it is managed,

所以說，如果處理得當， 難民都可以得到妥善安置。

but in the present circumstances, the pressure is at the point of entry,

但現在是入境處壓力很大

and then, as people move in this chaotic way through the Balkans,

之後難民毫無秩序地穿過巴爾幹，

then they come to Germany, Sweden, basically, and Austria.

來到德國、瑞典及奧地利，

They are the three countries that are, in the end, receiving the refugees.

只有這三個國家接收難民。

The rest of Europe is looking without doing much.

其它歐洲國家只是冷眼旁觀。

BG: Let me try to bring up three questions,

BG: 讓我再問三個問題，

playing a bit devil's advocate.

扮演一下魔鬼的支持者，

I'll try to ask them, make them blunt.

我會嘗試問問題，讓他們頭昏腦脹，

But I think the questions are very present

但我認為這個問題在 歐洲很多人的心理面

in the minds of many people in Europe right now,

是個相當現實的問題。

The first, of course, is about numbers.

首先，當然是難民的數字

You say 550 million versus one million is not much, but realistically,

你說5.5億比100萬不算多，但現實上

歐洲可容納多少人？

how many people can Europe take?

AG: Well, that is a question that has no answer,

AG：這個問題沒有答案

because refugees have the right to be protected.

因為難民有權被受保護。

And there is such a thing as international law,

國際法中也有這樣的規定，

so there is no way you can say, "I take 10,000 and that's finished."

所以你不能說： 「我只收一萬人，不要再來了」

I remind you of one thing:

我提醒你一件事：

in Turkey, at the beginning of the crisis, I remember one minister saying,

土耳其在危機開始前，記得有位部長說，

"Turkey will be able to receive up to 100,000 people."

“ 土耳其最多只能接納10萬人。”

Turkey has now two million three-hundred thousand

但現在，大約共有230萬難民

or something of the sort, if you count all refugees.

居住在土耳其。

So I don't think it's fair to say how many we can take.

所以我覺得，我認為我們不應該討論 歐洲能接納多少難民，

What it is fair to say is: how we can we organize ourselves

而是應該討論的是： 我們要如何組織自己

to assume our international responsibilities?

來履行我們的國際責任。

And Europe has not been able to do so,

歐洲還不能做到這一點，

because basically, Europe is divided because there is no solidarity

因為基本上，歐洲是分裂的，

in the European project.

並沒有團結起來共同解決歐洲問題。

And it's not only about refugees; there are many other areas.

而且不僅是在難民問題上， 在其他領域也是。

And let's be honest, this is the moment in which we need more Europe

我們說實話，現在這個時刻，

instead of less Europe.

我們需要更多歐洲國家參與，而非更少。

But as the public less and less believes in European institutions,

但因為大家越來越不相信歐盟機構，

it is also each time more difficult to convince the public

所以當要說服人們，我們需要更多歐盟國家來解決問題的時候

that we need more Europe to solve these problems.

就越來越困難。

BG: We seem to be at the point

BG：我們似乎在一個情況下

where the numbers turn into political shifts, particularly domestically.

就是難民數量會引響政策轉移， 特別是國家內政。

We saw it again this weekend in France,

比如這個周末， 我們又再次看到法國頒布的政策，

but we have seen it over and over in many countries:

我們也有看到其他國家也有這種狀況：

in Poland and in Denmark and in Switzerland and elsewhere,

比如波蘭、丹麥、瑞士，等等，

where the mood changes radically because of the numbers,

因為難民的數量而突然轉變，

although they are not very significant in absolute numbers.

雖然他們在絕對數字上 改變並不明顯，

The Prime Minister of --

（某國的）首相……

AG: But, if I may, on these:

AG：請容許我插句話， 我談一下這些事：

I mean, what does a European see at home

我的意思是，在歐洲一個 沒有移民的小村莊里，

in a village where there are no migrants?

人們在家裡能明白甚麼？

What a European sees is, on television,

在幾個月前的每一天，

打開電視新聞播的，

every single day, a few months ago, opening the news every single day,

就是大量人群湧入，不受控制，

a crowd coming, uncontrolled,

moving from border to border,

從這個邊境到那個邊境，

and the images on television were of hundreds

電視畫面裡就是

or thousands of people moving.

成千上百的人湧入歐洲。

And the idea is that nobody is taking care of it --

那狀況就好像沒人在乎這件事一樣--

this is happening without any kind of management.

事情發生了，沒人要管理。

And so their idea was, "They are coming to my village."

所以，他們會有一種想法就是， ＂他們要來我的村莊了。＂

So there was this completely false idea that Europe was being invaded

所以就有了一種完全錯誤的想法： 歐洲要被侵略了，

and our way of life is going to change, and everything will --

而我們的生活將會改變，所有事情都會--

And the problem is that if this had been properly managed,

問題在於，如果一切都能被妥善管理，

if people had been properly received,

如果難民被適當地接收、歡迎

welcomed, sheltered at point of entry, screened at point of entry,

在入境處接受安檢、安置，

and the moved by plane to different European countries,

然後坐飛機送往其他歐洲國家，

this would not have scared people.

這樣就不會讓人們害怕了。

But, unfortunately, we have a lot of people scared,

但，很不幸，我們有很多人都很害怕，

just because Europe was not able to do the job properly.

就是因為歐洲沒適當地處理問題。

BG: But there are villages in Germany

BG：但，德國有一些300人居住的村莊，

with 300 inhabitants and 1,000 refugees.

卻有1000個難民。

So, what's your position?

您對此是怎麼看的？

How do you imagine these people reacting?

您覺得當地居民會作何反應？

AG: If there would be a proper management of the situation

AG：這種狀況如果有適當的管理措施，

and the proper distribution of people all over Europe,

把難民適當地送往歐洲各國，

you would always have the percentage that I mentioned:

你就會有一個我剛剛提到的比例：

one per each 2,000.

1:2000。

It is because things are not properly managed

那是因為沒有適當的管理，

that in the end we have situations

造成我們最後

that are totally impossible to live with, and of course if you have a village --

完全不可能一起生活的情況， 當然，如果你有這樣的村莊--

in Lebanon, there are many villages

在黎巴嫩，有許多這樣的村莊，

that have more Syrians than Lebanese; Lebanon has been living with that.

敘利亞人比黎巴嫩人還要多。 黎巴嫩也適應了這種情形。

I'm not asking for the same to happen in Europe,

我並不是要求歐洲都比照辦理，

for all European villages to have more refugees than inhabitants.

讓所有歐洲的村莊 都接收比當地居民更多的難民。

What I am asking is for Europe to do the job properly,

我是希望歐洲把工作做好，

and to be able to organize itself to receive people

能夠有規劃地接收難民，

as other countries in the world were forced to do in the past.

就像過去世界上其他國家 被強迫做的那樣。

BG: So, if you look at the global situation not only at Europe --

BG:：如果我們看一下全球局勢， 而不僅僅是歐洲……

(Applause)

（掌聲）

BG: Yes!

BG：

(Applause)

（掌聲）

BG: If you look at the global situation, so, not only at Europe,

BG：如果我們看一下全球局勢， 而不僅是歐洲，

I know you can make a long list of countries

我知道你可以列出一長條

that are not really stepping up,

沒有真正站出來的國家清單，

but I'm more interested in the other part --

但我比較有興趣的是另一方，

is there somebody who's doing the right thing?

有沒有哪些國家是做正確的事呢？

AG: Well, 86 percent of the refugees in the world

AG：有的，全世界有86%的難民

are in the developing world.

居住在發展中國家。

And if you look at countries like Ethiopia --

如果你注意看一些國家， 像是衣索比亞--

Ethiopia has received more than 600,000 refugees.

他們已經接收了超過60萬名的難民。

All the borders in Ethiopia are open.

所有衣索比亞的邊境都是開放的

And they have, as a policy,

而他們有一項名為 “ 人民互助 ”的政策

they call the "people to people" policy that every refugee should be received.

說明每一位難民都應該被接納。

And they have South Sudanese,

還有南蘇丹、

they have Sudanese, they have Somalis.

蘇丹、索馬里亞。

They have all the neighbors.

他們接收來自所有鄰近國家的難民，

They have Eritreans.

包括厄立特里亞。

And, in general,

總體來說，

African countries are extremely welcoming of refugees coming,

非洲國家非常歡迎難民的到來，

and I would say that in the Middle East

而我也會這麼說，在中東和亞洲，

and in Asia, we have seen a tendency for borders to be open.

我們也看到了敞開國門的趨勢。

現在，我們看到敘利亞還有一些問題，

Now we see some problems with the Syrian situation,

as the Syrian situation evolved into also a major security crisis,

就是敘利亞也捲入了 嚴重的安全危機。

but the truth is that for a large period,

但事實是有很長一段時間，

all borders in the Middle East were open.

中東各國的邊境都是開放的。

The truth is that for Afghans,

當時巴基斯坦和伊朗的邊境

the borders of Pakistan and Iran were open for, at the time,

開放給600萬阿富汗人

six million Afghans that came.

進入這兩個國家。

So I would say that even today, the trend in the developing world

所以我會說，即使在​​今天，

在發展中國家的趨勢 是為難民敞開國門。

has been for borders to be open.

The trend in the developed world is for these questions to become

但在已開發國家，

這些問題卻變得越來越複雜，

more and more complex,

especially when there is, in the public opinion,

特別是當社會輿論

a mixture of discussions between refugee protections on one side

將庇護難民和國家安全問題 混為一談的時候，

and security questions -- in my opinion, misinterpreted -- on the other side.

在我看來是個錯誤的闡述。

BG: We'll come back to that too,

BG：我們等一下回來 會談到這個問題。

but you mentioned the cutting of funding and the vouchers

您剛剛提到世界糧食計劃署

from the World Food Programme.

物資縮減的情況。

That reflects the general underfunding of the organizations

這反映了這些組織

working on these issues.

普遍都遇到資金短缺的問題。

Now that the world seems to have woken up,

現在全世界看起來已經醒了，

are you getting more funding and more support,

你們是否得到了更多的資助和支援，

or it's still the same?

還是並沒有變化？

AG: We are getting more support.

AG：我們得到了更多的支援。

I would say that we are coming close to the levels of last year.

我會說，我們正接近去年的水平。

我們在夏天期間比較糟糕。

We were much worse during the summer.

But that is clearly insufficient to address the needs of the people

但這些顯然無法解決難民的需求，

and address the needs of the countries

也無法解決

that are supporting the people.

那些支持難民的國家的需求。

And here we have a basic review of the criteria, the objectives,

我們在這裡簡單重新審視一下

一些必要的、有關發展合作的 準則、目標和優先權。

the priorities of development cooperation that is required.

For instance, Lebanon and Jordan are middle-income countries.

舉個例子，黎巴嫩和約旦 都是中等收入國家。

Because they are middle-income countries,

由於它們是中等收入國家，

they cannot receive soft loans or grants from the World Bank.

所以無法從世界銀行 獲得優惠貸款或補助。

Now, today this doesn't make any sense,

現在這看起來很沒有道理，

because they are providing a global public good.

因為他們在為全球公共利益做貢獻。

They have millions of refugees there,

他們接納了數百萬難民，

and to be honest, they are pillars of stability in the region,

說實話，他們是區域中穩定的梁柱，

with all the difficulties they face,

他們為此面對了諸多困難，

and the first line of defense of our collective security.

並且是我們集體安全 的第一道防線。

So it doesn't make sense

所以，如果這些國家

that these countries are not a first priority

不是發展合作政策

in development cooperation policies.

優先考量的對象，就真的沒道理。

And they are not.

但他們不是，

And not only do the refugees live in very dramatic circumstances

這些國家，不僅難民生活在

inside those countries,

非常戲劇性的情境中，

but the local communities themselves are suffering,

當地居民本身也十分艱辛，

because salaries went down,

因為工資下滑、

because there are more unemployed,

失業率上升、

because prices and rents went up.

物價和租金上漲。

And, of course, if you look at today's situation

當然，如果你看一下

of the indicators in these countries,

這些國家現今的經濟指標，

it is clear that, especially their poor groups of the population,

很清楚地，特別是他們貧困團體的那一群人，

are living worse and worse because of the crisis they are facing.

因為他們面臨的危機， 使得他們的生活越來越艱難

BG: Who should be providing this support?

BG：誰應該提供這個支援呢？

Country by country, international organizations, the European Union?

各國政府、國際組織、還是歐盟？

Who should be coming up with this support?

由誰來提供這些支援呢？

AG: We need to join all efforts.

AG：我們需要各方的共同努力。

It's clear that bilateral cooperation is essential.

很明顯，雙邊合作是必要的，

It's clear that multilateral cooperation is essential.

多邊合作也是必要的，

It's clear that international financial institutions should have flexibility

國際金融機構也應該有更靈活的政策，

in order to be able to invest more massively

來支持這些國家

可以投資更多更大的工程。

in support to these countries.

We need to combine all the instruments and to understand that today,

我們需要結合所有方法，並且了解今日，

in protracted situations, at a certain moment,

在這個已經延宕的情況下

that it doesn't make sense anymore to make a distinction

把人道主義援助與經濟發展援助

between humanitarian aid and development aid

區分開來的做法是不合理的。

or development processes.

Because you are talking about children in school,

因為你談的是學校裡的孩子，

you are talking about health,

你談的是健康問題，

you are talking about infrastructure that is overcrowded.

你談的是過度擁擠的基礎設施。

You are talking about things that require a long-term perspective,

這些問題都需要

從長遠的發展角度來看待，

a development perspective

and not only an emergency humanitarian aid perspective.

僅僅從緊急人道主義 援助的角度出發是不夠的。

BG: I would like your comment on something

BG：我想請您對今早報紙上

that was in newspapers this morning.

這則新聞發表一下意見。

It is a statement made by the current front-runner

這是一段由處於領先地位的 美國共和黨總統候選人

for the Republican nomination for US President, Donald Trump.

唐納．川普發表的聲明。

Yesterday, he said this.

昨天，他這樣說，

(Laughter)

（笑聲）

不，聽聽看，這段話很有趣。

No, listen to this. It's interesting.

I quote: "I am calling for a total and complete shutdown

我引述一下他說的：

“我呼籲全面禁止穆斯林進入美國，

of Muslims entering the US,

until our country's representatives can figure out what's going on."

直到我們的議員搞清楚 到底怎麼回事。 ”

How do you react to that?

您對此如何回應？

AG: Well, it's not only Donald Trump.

AG：唐納．川普並不是特例。

We have seen several people around the world

我們已經看到世界上有政治責任的一些人

with political responsibility saying, for instance,

也曾有過類似的言論，例如，

that Muslims refugees should not be received.

不應該接收穆斯林難民。

And the reason why they say this

他們之所以這樣說，

is because they think that by doing or saying this,

是由於他們認為 這樣的說法或做法

they are protecting the security of their countries.

是在保護他們的國家安全。

Now, I've been in government.

我在政府機構工作，

I am very keen on the need for governments

我非常熱衷於政府對

to protect the security of their countries

維護國家和人民安全的需求。

and their people.

But if you say, like that,

但如果你在美國或任何一個歐洲國家

in the US or in any European country,

發表這樣的言論，

"We are going to close our doors to Muslim refugees,"

” 我們拒絕接收穆斯林難民 “，

what you are saying is the best possible help

你所說的話很有可能就會

for the propaganda of terrorist organizations.

被恐怖組織拿來當宣傳。

Because what you are saying --

因為你所說的--

(Applause)

（掌聲）

What you are saying will be heard by all the Muslims in your own country,

你所說的一切，都會被 在你們國家的穆斯林聽到，

and it will pave the way for the recruitment

這種透過科技的方式來為

and the mechanisms that, through technology,

恐怖組織的招募和其他機制鋪路。

Daesh and al-Nusra, al-Qaeda, and all those other groups

達伊沙、努斯拉陣線、 基地組織及其他此類團體

are today penetrating in our societies.

正在滲透我們的社會。

And it's just telling them, "You are right, we are against you."

你所說的話就是在告訴他們， ”是的，我們就是反對你們。“

So obviously, this is creating in societies that are all multiethnic,

所以很明顯，在一個多種族、

多宗教、多文化的社會裡，

multi-religious, multicultural,

this is creating a situation in which, really,

這種言論，真的，是在為恐怖組織的宣傳，

it is much easier for the propaganda of these terrorist organizations

幫他們創造更為有利的環境，

to be effective in recruiting people for terror acts

讓他們可以在發表這種言論的國家裡

within the countries where these kinds of sentences are expressed.

更容易地招募到當地人來進行恐怖攻擊。

BG: Have the recent attacks in Paris and the reactions to them

BG：最近發生在巴黎的恐怖攻擊 以及人們對此的反應

made your job more difficult?

有沒有增加您工作的難度？

AG: Undoubtedly.

AG：當然了。

BG: In what sense?

BG：在哪方面？

AG: In the sense that, I mean, for many people the first reaction

AG：這方面，我想，就是很多人

對此類的恐怖攻擊的 第一反應就是：關閉所有邊境，

in relation to these kinds of terrorist attacks is: close all borders --

not understanding that the terrorist problem in Europe is largely homegrown.

他們沒有意識到歐洲恐怖主義問題 大多是在歐洲內部產生的。

We have thousands and thousands of European fighters in Syria and in Iraq,

在敘利亞和伊拉克， 有成千上萬的戰士來自歐洲，

so this is not something that you solve by just not allowing Syrians to come in.

所以僅靠拒絕敘利亞人入境 並不能解決問題。

And I must say, I am convinced

而且我必須講，我確信，

that the passport that appeared,

現場發現的那本護照，

I believe, was put by the person who has blown --

我相信，就是引爆炸彈那個人的--

BG: -- himself up, yeah.

BG：自殺式爆炸，沒錯。

AG: [I believe] it was on purpose,

AG：對，我認為那是故意的，

because part of the strategies of Daesh is against refugees,

因為達伊沙的部分策略是反難民的，

because they see refugees as people that should be with the caliphate

他們認為這些難民 本該為哈里發王權服務，

and are fleeing to the crusaders.

卻投奔了十字軍。

And I think that is part of Daesh's strategy to make Europe react,

而我認為，那本護照就是達伊沙 在歐洲激起民憤的手段，

closing its doors to Muslim refugees

讓歐洲拒絕接收穆斯林難民，

and having an hostility towards Muslims inside Europe,

在歐洲內部煽動對穆斯林的敵意，

exactly to facilitate Daesh's work.

這完全對達伊沙有利。

And my deep belief is that it was not the refugee movement

我深信不疑的是，

並不是難民潮引發了恐怖主義。

that triggered terrorism.

I think, as I said,

正如我剛才所說，

essentially terrorism in Europe is today a homegrown movement

本質上，現今歐洲的恐怖主義 是在內部滋生的，

in relation to the global situation that we are facing,

這和我們當下所面對的 國際局勢脫不了關係。

and what we need is exactly to prove these groups wrong,

而我們需要的就是，

藉由歡迎世界上的那部分人 並讓他們盡快融入我們，

by welcoming and integrating effectively

those that are coming from that part of the world.

來向這些團體證明他們錯了，

And another thing that I believe is that to a large extent,

另外，我還認為在很大程度上，

what we are today paying for in Europe

我們正在為歐洲之前

is the failures of integration models

失敗的種族融合政策付出代價。

that didn't work in the '60s, in the '70s, in the '80s,

在上世紀60、70、80年代，

in relation to big migration flows that took place at that time

曾有過多次大規模的移民潮，

and generated what is today in many of the people, for instance,

當時的政策讓許多今日的...

of the second generation of communities,

例如，移民的第二代，

a situation of feeling marginalized,

感覺被邊緣化，

having no jobs,

他們沒有工作，

having improper education,

沒有適當的教育，

living in some of the neighborhoods that are not adequately provided

生活在缺乏基礎公共設施的社區裡。

by public infrastructure.

And this kind of uneasiness, sometimes even anger,

而第二代移民的這種不安， 有時甚至是憤怒，

that exists in this second generation

主要是由

失敗的種族融合政策所造成的，

is largely due to the failure of integration policies,

to the failure of what should have been a much stronger investment

原因是，政府本應該投入更多力量為人們 創造一個和平相處互相尊敬的環境，

in creating the conditions for people to live together and respect each other.

但卻沒有做到。

For me it is clear.

我深信--

(Applause)

（掌聲）

For me it is clear that all societies will be multiethnic, multicultural,

我深信，未來所有的社會都會是

多種族、多文化、多宗教共存的。

multi-religious in the future.

To try to avoid it is, in my opinion, impossible.

想要避免這種趨勢， 在我看來，是不可能的。

And for me it's a good thing that they will be like that,

我覺得這是一件好事，

but I also recognize that, for that to work properly,

但我也認知到要把這個工作做好，

you need a huge investment

我們要在自身的社會裡，

in the social cohesion of your own societies.

投入更多的努力在社會凝聚力上。

And Europe, to a large extent, failed in that investment

而歐洲，在過去的幾十年，有很大的程度，

in the past few decades.

在這種投入上並不成功。

BG: Question: You are stepping down from your job at the end of the year,

BG：還有個問題：年底您就要退職了，

而您擔任此職務已有十年之久。

after 10 years.

If you look back at 2005,

如果回顧2005年， 您第一次走進辦公室的時候，

when you entered that office for the first time, what do you see?

您有何種感想？

AG: Well, look:

AG：好吧，我們來看，

2005年，因為衝突告一段落，

In 2005, we were helping one million people go back home

我們幫助了100萬人 安全且尊嚴地重返家園，

in safety and dignity, because conflicts had ended.

Last year, we helped 124,000.

去年，我們僅幫助了12萬4千人。

In 2005, we had about 38 million people displaced by conflict in the world.

2005年，由於世界上的衝突而 被迫離家的人大約有3800萬人，

Today, we have more than 60 million.

今天，有六千多萬人。

At that time, we had had, recently,

當時，我們已解決了一些衝突。

some conflicts that were solved.

而現在，新的衝突快速增加，

Now, we see a multiplication of new conflicts

and the old conflicts never died:

而舊有衝突卻依然存在：

Afghanistan, Somalia, Democratic Republic of Congo.

比如阿富汗問題，索馬里問題，剛果問題。

It is clear that the world today is much more dangerous than it was.

很明顯，當今世界更為危險。

It is clear that the capacity of the international community

很明顯，國際社會

to prevent conflicts and to timely solve them,

在預防和及時解決衝突的能力，

is, unfortunately, much worse than what it was 10 years ago.

很遺憾，不及10年前的狀況。

There are no clear power relations in the world,

世界上沒有明確的權力關係

no global governance mechanisms that work,

或全球治理機制起作用，

which means that we live in a situation

意思就是我們生活在一個

where impunity and unpredictability tend to prevail, and that means

有罪不罰和不可預測性 往往佔上風的環境條件底下，

that more and more people suffer,

也意味著，越來越多的人因此遭受苦難，

namely those that are displaced by conflicts.

特別是那些因衝突而離開家園的人。

BG: It's a tradition in American politics

BG：美國政治中有一個傳統，

that when a President leaves the Oval Office for the last time,

上任總統最後離開總統辦公室的時候，

he leaves a handwritten note on the desk for his successor

會在辦公桌上留個小紙條

給幾小時候走進辦公室的繼任者。

that walks in a couple of hours later.

If you had to write such a note to your successor, Filippo Grandi,

如果讓您給您的繼任者菲利普．格蘭迪 寫一張這樣的便條，

what would you write?

您會寫些什麼呢？

AG: Well, I don't think I would write any message.

AG：我想我什麼都不會寫。

You know, one of the terrible things when one leaves an office

你知道，離任者嘗試著對繼任者指手畫腳，

is to try to become the backseat driver,

總想告訴他們應該怎樣做，

always telling the new one what to do.

這是個令人討厭的行為。

So that, I will not do.

所以我不會這麼做。

If I had to say something to him,

如果要我對他說點什麼，

it would be, "Be yourself, and do your best."

我會告訴他：“ 堅守本份，全力以赴。 ”

BG: Commissioner, thank you for the job you do.

BG：委員，感謝您所做的工作。

Thank you for coming to TED.

感謝您來 TED 演講。

(Applause)

（掌聲）