How we take back the internet | Edward Snowden

翻译人员: Zhiting Chen 校对人员: Geoff Chen

Chris Anderson: The rights of citizens,

克里斯‧安德森：公民的权利，

the future of the Internet.

互联网的未来。

So I would like to welcome to the TED stage

让我们欢迎， 将这一切公诸于世的人

the man behind those revelations,

来到 TED 的讲台，

Ed Snowden.

爱德华‧斯诺登

(Applause)

（鼓掌）

Ed is in a remote location somewhere in Russia

爱德华位于遥远的俄罗斯某处

controlling this bot from his laptop,

他通过笔记本电脑 操控这个网络机器人，

so he can see what the bot can see.

他能看到这个网络机器人 能看到的一切。

Ed, welcome to the TED stage.

爱德华，欢迎来到TED。

What can you see, as a matter of fact?

事实上，你都能看到些什么？

Edward Snowden: Ha, I can see everyone.

爱德华‧斯诺登： 哈，我能看到每一个人。

This is amazing.

这太酷了。

(Laughter)

（笑声）

CA: Ed, some questions for you.

克里斯‧安德森：爱德华， 我想问你一些问题。

You've been called many things

在过去的几个月里

in the last few months.

人们给予你多种称谓。

You've been called a whistleblower, a traitor,

你被称作是告密者、卖国贼、

a hero.

英雄。

What words would you describe yourself with?

你会用怎样的字眼来形容自己？

ES: You know, everybody who is involved

爱德华‧斯诺登：那些卷入

with this debate

这场争论的人

has been struggling over me and my personality

都纠结于我是谁， 我有怎样的性格

and how to describe me.

以及要如何描述我。

But when I think about it,

但当我想说，

this isn't the question that we should be struggling with.

我们不该纠结于这些问题。

Who I am really doesn't matter at all.

我是谁，这真的不重要。

If I'm the worst person in the world,

如果我是世界上最坏的人，

you can hate me and move on.

你可以恨我， 然后继续你的生活。

What really matters here are the issues.

真正重要的是这些问题。

What really matters here is the kind of government we want,

真正重要的是， 我们想要怎样的政府，

the kind of Internet we want,

我们想要怎样的互联网，

the kind of relationship between people

我们想要怎样的

and societies.

人与社会关系。

And that's what I'm hoping the debate will move towards,

这些才是我所希望的讨论方向，

and we've seen that increasing over time.

我们也看到， 有更多讨论正在进行中。

If I had to describe myself,

如果我要形容我自己，

I wouldn't use words like "hero."

我并不会用“英雄”这样的字眼。

I wouldn't use "patriot," and I wouldn't use "traitor."

我不是“爱国者”， 亦不是“叛国贼”。

I'd say I'm an American and I'm a citizen,

我是一个美国人， 是一个公民，

just like everyone else.

就和大家一样。

CA: So just to give some context

克里斯‧安德森：现在为那些

for those who don't know the whole story --

不了解完整事件的人介绍一下——

(Applause) —

（鼓掌）——

this time a year ago, you were stationed in Hawaii

一年前，你驻扎在夏威夷

working as a consultant to the NSA.

作为美国国家安全局的顾问。

As a sysadmin, you had access

作为系统管理员，你可以

to their systems,

进入他们的系统，

and you began revealing certain classified documents

然后你开始将所获取的机密文件

to some handpicked journalists

发给你精心挑选的记者们，

leading the way to June's revelations.

随之而然，发生了 六月份的揭秘事件。

Now, what propelled you to do this?

是什么使你有做这件事的动力呢？

ES: You know,

爱德华‧斯诺登：你知道吗，

when I was sitting in Hawaii,

当我在夏威夷的时候，

and the years before, when I was working in the intelligence community,

和之前的一年， 那时我在情报系统工作，

I saw a lot of things that had disturbed me.

我看到很多令我不安的事。

We do a lot of good things in the intelligence community,

在情报系统， 我们做很多有益的事，

things that need to be done,

那些需要被完成的事，

and things that help everyone.

那些可以帮助人们的事。

But there are also things that go too far.

但是，有些事做得过头了。

There are things that shouldn't be done,

不应该做那些事，

and decisions that were being made in secret

那些秘密做出的决定，

without the public's awareness,

是在公众无意识到的情况下，

without the public's consent,

在公众未允许的情况下，

and without even our representatives in government

在甚至于政府内的代表

having knowledge of these programs.

都不知道的情况下。

When I really came to struggle with these issues,

当我和这些事物斗争的时候，

I thought to myself,

我想，

how can I do this in the most responsible way,

要如何以最可靠地方式完成，

that maximizes the public benefit

最大化公众利益

while minimizing the risks?

同时将风险最小化？

And out of all the solutions that I could come up with,

在我所能想到的所有解决方案

out of going to Congress,

除了去国会，

when there were no laws,

当没有法律

there were no legal protections

也没有针对私人雇员的

for a private employee,

合法保护的情况下，

a contractor in intelligence like myself,

像我这样在情报系统工作的合约人员，

there was a risk that I would be buried along with the information

存在着我会和情报一起消失

and the public would never find out.

而公众永远都会被蒙在鼓里的风险。

But the First Amendment of the United States Constitution

但是美国宪法的第一条修正案

guarantees us a free press for a reason,

保证了我们的新闻自由，

and that's to enable an adversarial press,

这确保了有站在对立面的媒体，

to challenge the government,

来挑战政府，

but also to work together with the government,

但同时和政府合作，

to have a dialogue and debate about how we can

进行对话，讨论我们要如何

inform the public about matters of vital importance

将重要信息传达给公众

without putting our national security at risk.

而不会将我们的国家安全置于危险中。

And by working with journalists,

通过和记者合作，

by giving all of my information

通过将所有我搜集到的信息

back to the American people,

还给美国人民，

rather than trusting myself to make

而不是相信我自己来

the decisions about publication,

做出有关于出版的决定，

we've had a robust debate

我们有过一场热烈辩论

with a deep investment by the government

有关政府的一项深入投资,

that I think has resulted in a benefit for everyone.

我想这是对每个人都是有益的。

And the risks that have been threatened,

而政府恐吓的所谓风险，

the risks that have been played up

政府宣扬的

by the government

所谓风险

have never materialized.

从未成为现实。

We've never seen any evidence

我们没见到任何一个

of even a single instance of specific harm,

具体伤害案例的证据

and because of that,

正因为这样

I'm comfortable with the decisions that I made.

我对自己做出的决定感到合理。

CA: So let me show the audience

克里斯‧安德森： 让我展示给观众

a couple of examples of what you revealed.

你揭示的一些文件作为例子。

If we could have a slide up, and Ed,

我们向前翻一页，爱德华，

I don't know whether you can see,

我不知道你能不能看到

the slides are here.

这里展示的幻灯片。

This is a slide of the PRISM program,

这个幻灯片展示的 是棱镜门项目，

and maybe you could tell the audience

也许你可以告诉观众

what that was that was revealed.

你揭示的是什么。

ES: The best way to understand PRISM,

爱德华‧斯诺登： 了解棱镜门最好的方式，

because there's been a little bit of controversy,

因为存在些许论战，

is to first talk about what PRISM isn't.

就是来谈论棱镜门不是什么。

Much of the debate in the U.S. has been about metadata.

美国的很多争辩有关元数据。

They've said it's just metadata, it's just metadata,

他们说这只是 有关元数据，仅此而已，

and they're talking about a specific legal authority

他们谈论一个特殊的法定权利，

called Section 215 of the Patriot Act.

即爱国者法案的第215章节。

That allows sort of a warrantless wiretapping,

这个章节允许未经授权的窃听行为，

mass surveillance of the entire country's

大面积监察整个国家的

phone records, things like that --

电话记录，还有如下的事——

who you're talking to,

你在和谁说话，

when you're talking to them,

你什么时候和他们说话，

where you traveled.

你去了哪里旅游。

These are all metadata events.

这都是元数据事件。

PRISM is about content.

棱镜门与内容息息相关。

It's a program through which the government could

通过这个项目政府能够

compel corporate America,

强迫美国的企业

it could deputize corporate America

能够代理美国企业

to do its dirty work for the NSA.

来为美国国家安全局做卑鄙的工作。

And even though some of these companies did resist,

即使很多这些公司做出了抵抗，

even though some of them --

即使这其中很多公司——

I believe Yahoo was one of them —

我相信雅虎是其中一个——

challenged them in court, they all lost,

在法庭上做出了挑战， 但他们都失败了，

because it was never tried by an open court.

因为这一切辩论从不是 在公开法庭进行的。

They were only tried by a secret court.

而是只在秘密法庭中进行。

And something that we've seen,

那些我们看到的事情，

something about the PRISM program that's very concerning to me is,

那些棱镜门项目中 对我来说感到非常担忧的是，

there's been a talking point in the U.S. government

美国政府的其中一条论据是

where they've said 15 federal judges

他们说15名联邦法院法官

have reviewed these programs and found them to be lawful,

审查过这些项目 并且认为这是合法的，

but what they don't tell you

但他们没有告诉你的是

is those are secret judges

那些是秘密法官

in a secret court

在秘密法庭

based on secret interpretations of law

基于对于法律的秘密解读，

that's considered 34,000 warrant requests

在33年内共收到

over 33 years,

34000件认证请求，

and in 33 years only rejected

并且在33年内，仅拒绝了

11 government requests.

11项政府请求。

These aren't the people that we want deciding

我们不希望也不需要这些人来

what the role of corporate America

决定美国在一个 自由开放的网路社会

in a free and open Internet should be.

所要扮演怎样的角色。

CA: Now, this slide that we're showing here

克里斯‧安德森： 现在，这张幻灯片

shows the dates in which

展示了

different technology companies, Internet companies,

各个科技公司，互联网企业，

are alleged to have joined the program,

被指加入此项目的日期，

and where data collection began from them.

也就是从这些日期起， 这些公司经手的数据被搜集起来。

Now, they have denied collaborating with the NSA.

此时，它们否认了 与美国国家安全局有合作关系。

How was that data collected by the NSA?

这些数据是如何 被美国国家安全局收集的呢？

ES: Right. So the NSA's own slides

爱德华‧斯诺登: 有关美国国家安全局的这些页面

refer to it as direct access.

指的是其对信息的直接涉入。

What that means to an actual NSA analyst,

这对于一个真正的国安局分析师意味着，

someone like me who was working as an intelligence analyst

像我这样从事情报分析的工作人员，

targeting, Chinese cyber-hackers,

追踪，中国的网络骇客，

things like that, in Hawaii,

这类的工作，在夏威夷，

is the provenance of that data

这些数据的出处

is directly from their servers.

是直接来自他们的服务器的。

It doesn't mean

这并不是说

that there's a group of company representatives

有一批各个公司的代表

sitting in a smoky room with the NSA

坐在烟雾缭绕的房间里，

palling around and making back-room deals

在国安局打得火热， 从事密室交易

about how they're going to give this stuff away.

探讨他们如何出卖这些数据。

Now each company handles it different ways.

每个公司都有不同的处理方式。

Some are responsible.

有些公司很负责任。

Some are somewhat less responsible.

有些就不那么负责了。

But the bottom line is, when we talk about

但主要原則是，当我们讨论到

how this information is given,

这些信息是如何提交给国安局，

it's coming from the companies themselves.

是这些公司自己提供的。

It's not stolen from the lines.

并不是遭到窃取。

But there's an important thing to remember here:

但有一点值得注意的是：

even though companies pushed back,

即使这些公司退回国安局的提案，

even though companies demanded,

即使这些公司询问，

hey, let's do this through a warrant process,

嘿，我们可以通过 正当的渠道做这些事，

let's do this

我们这样处理

where we actually have some sort of legal review,

我们确实有一些法律审查，

some sort of basis for handing over

一些类似移交

these users' data,

用户数据的基本条例，

we saw stories in the Washington Post last year

我们看到华盛顿邮报去年的报道，

that weren't as well reported as the PRISM story

尽管没有像棱镜门事件这样详细，

that said the NSA broke in

其报道称，国家安全局闯入

to the data center communications

谷歌的数据中心

between Google to itself

将其连接入自己的数据库，

and Yahoo to itself.

同时遭涉入的还有雅虎。

So even these companies that are cooperating

即使这些公司

in at least a compelled but hopefully lawful manner

至少是在被强迫， 但还是考量到法律因素的状况下

with the NSA,

与国安局进行合作，

the NSA isn't satisfied with that,

国安局仍对此不甚满意，

and because of that, we need our companies

因为这样，我们需要这些公司

to work very hard

能够更加努力

to guarantee that they're going to represent

来保证他们将会代表

the interests of the user, and also advocate

用户的利益，并且

for the rights of the users.

为用户的权益发声。

And I think over the last year,

我认为，在过去的一年，

we've seen the companies that are named

我们看到这些在棱镜门中

on the PRISM slides

被点名的公司

take great strides to do that,

做出巨大的努力，

and I encourage them to continue.

我鼓励他们继续斗争。

CA: What more should they do?

克里斯‧安德森：你认为他们 还需要做哪些进一步的工作呢？

ES: The biggest thing that an Internet company

爱德华‧斯诺登： 此时此刻，美国的网络公司

in America can do today, right now,

可以做的是，

without consulting with lawyers,

无须与律师咨询，

to protect the rights of users worldwide,

保障全球范围内用户的权利，

is to enable SSL web encryption

在用户造访的每个网页

on every page you visit.

开启加密套接字协议层。

The reason this matters is today,

其重要的原因在于，

if you go to look at a copy of "1984" on Amazon.com,

如果你在亚马逊网站上看1984 （译者注：英国作家乔治‧奥威尔的著作），

the NSA can see a record of that,

国安局可以看到这份浏览记录，

the Russian intelligence service can see a record of that,

俄罗斯的情报机构 可以看到这份浏览记录，

the Chinese service can see a record of that,

中国的情报机关也能看到这份浏览记录，

the French service, the German service,

法国的情报机构，德国的情报机构，

the services of Andorra.

安道尔共和国的情报机构也能看到。

They can all see it because it's unencrypted.

这些机构都能看到这份浏览记录， 因为它没有被加密保护起来。

The world's library is Amazon.com,

亚马逊网站是世界图书馆，

but not only do they not support encryption by default,

但亚马逊既没有默认支持加密保护，

you cannot choose to use encryption

用户个人在浏览书籍的时候，

when browsing through books.

也无法选择使用加密保护。

This is something that we need to change,

我们需要改变，

not just for Amazon, I don't mean to single them out,

不只是亚马逊， 我并不是想针对它，

but they're a great example.

但不得不说，它是个好例子。

All companies need to move

所有的公司需要

to an encrypted browsing habit by default

默认加密保护 所有用户的浏览记录，

for all users who haven't taken any action

保护那些没有安装任何加密措施

or picked any special methods on their own.

或没有设置特殊选择的用户。

That'll increase the privacy and the rights

这将会加强隐私保护和

that people enjoy worldwide.

全球人民所应当享有的权利。

CA: Ed, come with me to this part of the stage.

克里斯‧安德森：爱德华， 跟我一起来到舞台的这边，

I want to show you the next slide here. (Applause)

我想展示下一张幻灯片。（鼓掌）

This is a program called Boundless Informant.

这个项目名叫“无限线人”。

What is that?

那是什么？

ES: So, I've got to give credit to the NSA

爱德华‧斯诺登： 我想要感谢国安局

for using appropriate names on this.

为它们自己的这个项目 起了合适的名字。

This is one of my favorite NSA cryptonyms.

这是我最喜欢的国安局假名。

Boundless Informant

“无限线人”

is a program that the NSA hid from Congress.

是国安局隐瞒国会的一个项目。

The NSA was previously asked by Congress,

之前，国会曾问过国家安全局，

was there any ability that they had

有没有任何方法

to even give a rough ballpark estimate

能够给一个大概的估算，

of the amount of American communications

估算出美国的通讯

that were being intercepted.

有多少是被窃听的。

They said no. They said, we don't track those stats,

他们说没有。他们说， 我们不会追踪那些数据，

and we can't track those stats.

并且我们也不能 追踪那些数据。

We can't tell you how many communications

我们无法告诉你们，

we're intercepting around the world,

我们在全球范围内 正在窃听多少通讯资料，

because to tell you that would be

因为如果告知你们的这个行为

to invade your privacy.

是侵犯你们隐私的。

Now, I really appreciate that sentiment from them,

现在，我非常感谢他们的节操，

but the reality, when you look at this slide is,

但现实是，你看到的这张幻灯片，

not only do they have the capability,

不仅说明了他们有这样的能力，

the capability already exists.

这样的能力早已存在了。

It's already in place.

已经在实施了。

The NSA has its own internal data format

国安局有自己的内部数据格式，

that tracks both ends of a communication,

能够追踪通讯的两端，

and if it says,

如果显示，

this communication came from America,

通讯是源自美国本土的，

they can tell Congress how many of those communications

他们可以告知国会， 有多少通讯信息

they have today, right now.

此时此刻在他们掌握之中。

And what Boundless Informant tells us

“无限线人”这个项目告诉我们，

is more communications are being intercepted

被国安局窃听的通讯信息，

in America about Americans

多发生在美国本土， 就在美国人民之间。

than there are in Russia about Russians.

比窃听到的在俄罗斯的 俄罗斯人的通讯情报要多。

I'm not sure that's what an intelligence agency

我不认为情报机关

should be aiming for.

应该以窃听本土民众通讯为目标。

CA: Ed, there was a story broken in the Washington Post,

克里斯‧安德森：爱德华， 华盛顿邮报又爆出了新的故事，

again from your data.

还是从你提供的数据。

The headline says,

其标题称，

"NSA broke privacy rules

“美国国家安全局每年

thousands of times per year."

违反隐私条例数千次。”

Tell us about that.

请谈一谈你的观点。

ES: We also heard in Congressional testimony last year,

爱德华‧斯诺登： 去年的国会证言也提到过，

it was an amazing thing for someone like me

这太令人吃惊了，

who came from the NSA

像我这样为国安局工作的人，

and who's seen the actual internal documents,

看过这些真实内部资料的人，

knows what's in them,

知道事情内幕的人，

to see officials testifying under oath

看到官员们誓称

that there had been no abuses,

没有滥用权力，

that there had been no violations of the NSA's rules,

没有违反国安局的条例，

when we knew this story was coming.

那时已经知晓 这一切即将被公诸于世。

But what's especially interesting about this,

但是，特别有趣的事实是，

about the fact that the NSA has violated

美国国家安全局违反了

their own rules, their own laws

他们自己的条例，自己的法律

thousands of times in a single year,

一年中高达数千次，

including one event by itself,

包括自身的一个事件，

one event out of those 2,776,

2776件中的一个，

that affected more than 3,000 people.

影响了超过3000个人。

In another event, they intercepted

在另一事件中，

all the calls in Washington, D.C., by accident.

他们无意中窃听了 华盛顿特区的所有电话。

What's amazing about this,

令人惊讶的是，

this report, that didn't get that much attention,

这份报告，并没有得到 很大程度的关注，

is the fact that not only were there 2,776 abuses,

因为事实上， 远不止那2776起滥用职权，

the chairman of the Senate Intelligence Committee,

参议院情报委员会主席，

Dianne Feinstein, had not seen this report

丹妮·费恩斯坦， 在华盛顿邮报联系她

until the Washington Post contacted her

请她就此事做出评论前，

asking for comment on the report.

她还未看过这份报告。

And she then requested a copy from the NSA

随后她向国安局索取了这份材料，

and received it,

她收到了，

but had never seen this before that.

但她此前从未见过这份材料。

What does that say about the state of oversight

这意味着什么呢？ 美国情报机关

in American intelligence

得到了怎样的监管？

when the chairman of the Senate Intelligence Committee

甚至连参议院情报委员会主席

has no idea that the rules are being broken

都不知道每年这些规则

thousands of times every year?

都被破坏了数千次？

CA: Ed, one response to this whole debate is this:

克里斯·安德森：爱德华， 对于这整场辩论的一个回应这样说道：

Why should we care about

老实说，我们为什么

all this surveillance, honestly?

要在乎这样的监督？

I mean, look, if you've done nothing wrong,

我的意思是，如果你没做坏事，

you've got nothing to worry about.

你就不值得对此感到担忧。

What's wrong with that point of view?

这样的观点有怎样的错误？

ES: Well, so the first thing is,

爱德华·斯诺登：首先，

you're giving up your rights.

你放弃了自己的权利。

You're saying hey, you know,

你说，嘿，你知道，

I don't think I'm going to need them,

我不认为自己需要这样的权利，

so I'm just going to trust that, you know,

所以我决定信任他们，

let's get rid of them, it doesn't really matter,

无所谓，没关系，

these guys are going to do the right thing.

这些人（国安局）在做正确的事。

Your rights matter

你的权利是重要的，

because you never know when you're going to need them.

因为你永远不知道， 在未来的某个时刻， 你很可能需要这样的权利。

Beyond that, it's a part of our cultural identity,

除此之外，这是我们 文化认同的一个组成部分，

not just in America,

不只在美国，

but in Western societies

而是在整个西方社会

and in democratic societies around the world.

还有全球范围内的民主社会。

People should be able to pick up the phone

人们应该能够拿起电话

and to call their family,

打给他们的家人，

people should be able to send a text message

人们应该能够发短信

to their loved ones,

给他们的爱人，

people should be able to buy a book online,

人们应该能够在网上买书，

they should be able to travel by train,

人们应该能够乘坐火车去旅行，

they should be able to buy an airline ticket

人们应该能够去买机票，

without wondering about how these events

而不需要想着，这些行为

are going to look to an agent of the government,

将会被政府的机构监察，

possibly not even your government

说不定在未来

years in the future,

这些监察你的 甚至都不是你的政府，

how they're going to be misinterpreted

他们将会怎样曲解

and what they're going to think your intentions were.

他们会怎样揣测你的意图。

We have a right to privacy.

我们有隐私权。

We require warrants to be based on probable cause

我们需要正当的理由，合理的根据，

or some kind of individualized suspicion

或者比方说窃听某些个别的嫌疑人，

because we recognize that trusting anybody,

因为我们意识到，相信他人，

any government authority,

任何政府机构，

with the entirety of human communications

将通讯的全部内容交予他们，

in secret and without oversight

在秘密地，不被监管的情况下，

is simply too great a temptation to be ignored.

实在是无法忽略的诱惑。

CA: Some people are furious at what you've done.

克里斯‧安德森：有些人 对你所做的一切感到暴怒。

I heard a quote recently from Dick Cheney

我最近听说，迪克‧切尼说道， （美国副总统 2001-2009）

who said that Julian Assange was a flea bite,

朱利安‧阿桑奇所做的事 （维基解密）仅能称作跳蚤叮咬，

Edward Snowden is the lion that bit the head off the dog.

而爱德华‧斯诺登则是 把狗头咬掉的狮子。

He thinks you've committed

他认为，你所做的是

one of the worst acts of betrayal

美国历史上

in American history.

最恶劣的叛国罪。

What would you say to people who think that?

你要对持有这样观点的人 做出怎样的回应呢？

ES: Dick Cheney's really something else.

爱德华‧斯诺登： 迪克‧切尼可真了不起。

(Laughter) (Applause)

（笑声）（掌声）

Thank you. (Laughter)

谢谢。（笑声）

I think it's amazing, because at the time

我认为这很惊人，因为当

Julian Assange was doing some of his greatest work,

朱利安‧阿桑奇做那些伟大工作的时候，

Dick Cheney was saying

迪克‧切尼曾说

he was going to end governments worldwide,

阿桑奇会让世界范围内的政府终结，

the skies were going to ignite

天空会被点燃

and the seas were going to boil off,

海洋会蒸发消失，

and now he's saying it's a flea bite.

现在他又说阿桑奇的行为 只是跳蚤叮咬。

So we should be suspicious about the same sort of

所以我们应该对于这种

overblown claims of damage to national security

过分宣扬国家安全易受到破坏

from these kind of officials.

的政府官员保持怀疑。

But let's assume that these people really believe this.

但是，让我们假设， 这类人真的坚信这样的想法。

I would argue that they have kind of

我想他们对于国家安全

a narrow conception of national security.

有一个非常狭隘的概念。

The prerogatives of people like Dick Cheney

像迪克‧切尼这样有特权的人，

do not keep the nation safe.

没有保障国家的安全。

The public interest is not always the same

公众利益并不永远和

as the national interest.

国家利益保持一致。

Going to war with people who are not our enemy

与那些不是我们敌人的人 进行战争，

in places that are not a threat

战争的地点也 不对我国形成任何威胁，

doesn't make us safe,

这并没有让人民更加安全，

and that applies whether it's in Iraq

这个道理适用于伊拉克战争

or on the Internet.

和互联网上的监听行为。

The Internet is not the enemy.

互联网不是敌人。

Our economy is not the enemy.

我们的经济不是敌人。

American businesses, Chinese businesses,

美国的商业活动， 中国的商业活动，

and any other company out there

那些商业公司

is a part of our society.

是我们社会的一个部分。

It's a part of our interconnected world.

这是我们全球范围交流的 一个组成部分。

There are ties of fraternity that bond us together,

这些连结就像互助会一样， 把我们联系在一起，

and if we destroy these bonds

如果我们摧毁这些纽带

by undermining the standards, the security,

以毁坏标准，安全，

the manner of behavior,

行为方式，

that nations and citizens all around the world

上述这些正是全世界 其它国家和公民

expect us to abide by.

期待美国能够遵守的准则。

CA: But it's alleged that you've stolen

克里斯‧安德森： 但是，据说你窃取了

1.7 million documents.

一百七十多万份资料。

It seems only a few hundred of them

至今，看似只有其中数百份文件

have been shared with journalists so far.

是分享给记者们的。

Are there more revelations to come?

是不是未来还会有 更多的揭秘呢？

ES: There are absolutely more revelations to come.

爱德华‧斯诺登：未来 绝对会有更多的揭秘。

I don't think there's any question

我认为一些最重要的

that some of the most important reporting

必须要揭露的材料

to be done is yet to come.

仍旧尚未公布。

CA: Come here, because I want to ask you

克里斯‧安德森： 来这边，我想要问你

about this particular revelation.

有关此特定的启示。

Come and take a look at this.

过来看看这个。

I mean, this is a story which I think for a lot of the techies in this room

这是一个故事，我觉得 对很多在这个房间里面的技术员来说

is the single most shocking thing

是过去的几个月中听到

that they have heard in the last few months.

最令人震惊的事情。

It's about a program called "Bullrun."

这个项目叫做“布尔溪”。

Can you explain what that is?

你能解释一下什么是吗？

ES: So Bullrun, and this is again

爱德华‧斯诺登： 布尔溪， （译注：美国南北战争始于布尔溪战役）

where we've got to thank the NSA for their candor,

这里我们再次感谢 国安局将此事开诚布公，

this is a program named after a Civil War battle.

这个程序以一次内战名字命名。

The British counterpart is called Edgehill,

英国人称之为刀锋山， （译注：第一次英国内战开始于刀锋山战役）

which is a U.K. civil war battle.

这是英国内战战场。

And the reason that I believe they're named this way

因此，我认为他们的这种命名方式

is because they target our own infrastructure.

是由于他们的目标是国内设施。

They're programs through which the NSA

这些程序是国安局

intentionally misleads corporate partners.

故意误导合作的企业伙伴的。

They tell corporate partners that these

他们告诉合作企业伙伴

are safe standards.

这是符合安全标准的。

They say hey, we need to work with you

他们说，嗨，让我们一起工作

to secure your systems,

以确保你的系统安全，

but in reality, they're giving bad advice

但事实上，他们给予的建议 非常糟糕，

to these companies that makes them

使得这些公司

degrade the security of their services.

降低了其服务的安全性。

They're building in backdoors that not only

他们搭建的程序后门

the NSA can exploit,

不仅国安局可以进入，

but anyone else who has time and money

任何其他有钱有闲的人

to research and find it

都能研究并搜索到。

can then use to let themselves in

使得他们自己

to the world's communications.

能够进入全球通信平台。

And this is really dangerous,

这是很危险的，

because if we lose a single standard,

因为当我们失去一个 单一标准的时候，

if we lose the trust of something like SSL,

如果我们失去对 加密套接字协议层(SSL)的信任，

which was specifically targeted

这正是

by the Bullrun program,

布尔溪项目的主要目标，

we will live a less safe world overall.

我们将生活在不那么安全的世界。

We won't be able to access our banks

我们不能够访问我们的银行

and we won't be able to access commerce

我们不能够从事商务活动

without worrying about people monitoring those communications

而无需担心有人监测这些通信

or subverting them for their own ends.

或根据他们自己的目的而改变这些通信。

CA: And do those same decisions also potentially

克里斯‧安德森：那么 这样的决定是否可能

open America up to cyberattacks

会将美国网络置于危险境地，

from other sources?

开放给来自其它源头的攻击吗？

ES: Absolutely.

爱德华‧斯诺登： 绝对是这样。

One of the problems,

其中一个问题，

one of the dangerous legacies

最危险的结果之一

that we've seen in the post-9/11 era,

我们已经看到在后911时代，

is that the NSA has traditionally worn two hats.

国安局传统上来说有两个责任。

They've been in charge of offensive operations,

他们一直负责进攻性行动，

that is hacking,

也就是黑客入侵，

but they've also been in charge of defensive operations,

但它们也一直负责防御行动

and traditionally they've always prioritized

传统上他们习惯于总是优先

defense over offense

采用防御手段，

based on the principle

其所基于的原则是，

that American secrets are simply worth more.

美国机密有更高的价值。

If we hack a Chinese business

如果我们侵入中国商业系统

and steal their secrets,

偷盗他们的秘密，

if we hack a government office in Berlin

如果我们侵入柏林某个政府办事处

and steal their secrets,

偷盗了他们的秘密，

that has less value to the American people

这对美国人来说价值不高，

than making sure that the Chinese

更重要的是确保中国

can't get access to our secrets.

无法发掘到我们的秘密。

So by reducing the security of our communications,

这样降低了我们的通信安全系数，

they're not only putting the world at risk,

他们不仅把全球网络置于风险中，

they're putting America at risk in a fundamental way,

并且把美国置于风险中，

because intellectual property is the basis,

因为知识产权是基本，

the foundation of our economy,

是经济的基础，

and if we put that at risk through weak security,

如果因为安全薄弱 而把知识产权置于危险境地，

we're going to be paying for it for years.

我们会为此而付出多年的代价。

CA: But they've made a calculation

克里斯‧安德森: 但是他们做了一个计算

that it was worth doing this

认为这是值得的

as part of America's defense against terrorism.

作为美国反恐的一部分。

Surely that makes it a price worth paying.

当然，使得这成为值得付出的代价。

ES: Well, when you look at the results

爱德华‧斯诺登：嗯，当你看看

of these programs in stopping terrorism,

这些程序在阻止恐怖主义活动中 所发挥的作用，

you will see that that's unfounded,

你会发现，这是毫无根据的，

and you don't have to take my word for it,

你不必相信我的话，

because we've had the first open court,

因为我们有过第一次公开法庭，

the first federal court that's reviewed this,

第一联邦法院审查了这一点，

outside the secrecy arrangement,

超出保密协议，

called these programs Orwellian

这些程序被称为奥威尔，

and likely unconstitutional.

并且这有可能违反了宪法。

Congress, who has access

国会有权涉入

to be briefed on these things,

要求国安局介绍解释这些事情，

and now has the desire to be,

现在希望去

has produced bills to reform it,

起草条例草案审议并进行改革，

and two independent White House panels

并且有两个独立的白宫评审会议

who reviewed all of the classified evidence

审查了所有机密证据，

said these programs have never stopped

指出这些行动从来没有阻止过

a single terrorist attack

任何一次即将在美国

that was imminent in the United States.

发生的恐怖袭击。

So is it really terrorism that we're stopping?

我们真的成功阻止了恐怖主义吗？

Do these programs have any value at all?

这些程序具有任何价值吗？

I say no, and all three branches

我认为没有，

of the American government say no as well.

美国政府中的三个部门也说没有。

CA: I mean, do you think there's a deeper motivation

克里斯‧安德森： 我的意思是，你认为有一个

for them than the war against terrorism?

比反恐战争更深层的动机吗？

ES: I'm sorry, I couldn't hear you, say again?

爱德华‧斯诺登： 很抱歉， 我没听清，你能再说一遍吗？

CA: Sorry. Do you think there's a deeper motivation

克里斯‧安德森： 抱歉。 你认为有一个更深层的动机，

for them other than the war against terrorism?

除了反恐战争之外的原因吗？

ES: Yeah. The bottom line is that terrorism

爱德华‧斯诺登：是的。原则上，恐怖主义

has always been what we in the intelligence world

一直是我们在情报界

would call a cover for action.

拿来当做采取行动的外壳。

Terrorism is something that provokes

恐怖主义是具有挑衅性的词语，

an emotional response that allows people

它使人们产生情绪反应，

to rationalize authorizing powers and programs

从而合理化授权权力和程序，

that they wouldn't give otherwise.

这是除恐怖主义外他们不会认同的。

The Bullrun and Edgehill-type programs,

布尔溪和刀锋山这样的项目，

the NSA asked for these authorities

国家安全局要求这样的授权

back in the 1990s.

回到1990年代。

They asked the FBI to go to Congress and make the case.

他们要求联邦调查局向国会备案，

The FBI went to Congress and did make the case.

联邦调查局去到国会备案，

But Congress and the American people said no.

但国会和美国人民说不要。

They said, it's not worth the risk to our economy.

他们说，这不值得让 我们的经济去冒险。

They said it's worth too much damage

他们说为得到这些，会对我们的社会

to our society to justify the gains.

造成过大的伤害。

But what we saw is, in the post-9/11 era,

但我们看到的是， 在后911时代，

they used secrecy and they used the justification of terrorism

他们使用保密和以对抗恐怖主义为理由

to start these programs in secret

秘密启动这些程序，

without asking Congress,

不过问国会，

without asking the American people,

不过问美国人民，

and it's that kind of government behind closed doors

就是那种躲在紧闭大门后的政府

that we need to guard ourselves against,

人们需要保护自己去反对它，

because it makes us less safe,

因为它使我们越发危险，

and it offers no value.

并且没有提供任何价值。

CA: Okay, come with me here for a sec,

克里斯‧安德森: 好的，请跟我来这儿，

because I've got a more personal question for you.

我想要问你一些个人问题。

Speaking of terror,

说到恐惧，

most people would find the situation you're in right now

大多数人认为你现在

in Russia pretty terrifying.

在俄罗斯的处境非常可怕。

You obviously heard what happened,

你显然听说过曾经发生过的那些事，

what the treatment that Bradley Manning got,

布拉德利‧曼宁得到了怎样的对待，

Chelsea Manning as now is,

他现在改名为切尔西‧曼宁，

and there was a story in Buzzfeed saying that

Buzzfeed 上有这样一个故事，

there are people in the intelligence community

情报系统的一些人

who want you dead.

希望你死。

How are you coping with this?

你要怎样应付？

How are you coping with the fear?

你怎样应对恐惧？

ES: It's no mystery

爱德华‧斯诺登：这不奇怪

that there are governments out there that want to see me dead.

很多国家的政府想要我死。

I've made clear again and again and again

我已经一次又一次地表明

that I go to sleep every morning

每天早上我去睡觉

thinking about what I can do for the American people.

都想着我可以为美国人民做些什么。

I don't want to harm my government.

我不想伤害我的政府。

I want to help my government,

我想要帮助我的政府，

but the fact that they are willing to

但事实是，他们更愿意

completely ignore due process,

选择忽视适当程序，

they're willing to declare guilt

他们选择在没有一次审判的情况下

without ever seeing a trial,

宣布我有罪，

these are things that we need to work against

这些都是我们需要联合起来反对的

as a society, and say hey, this is not appropriate.

告诉他们说，嘿，这是不合理的。

We shouldn't be threatening dissidents.

我们不应该威胁持不同政见者。

We shouldn't be criminalizing journalism.

我们现在不应该定为犯罪新闻。

And whatever part I can do to see that end,

为了尽可能使它结束，

I'm happy to do despite the risks.

我很高兴这么做，尽管存在风险。

CA: So I'd actually like to get some feedback

克里斯‧安德森：所以我其实想听到

from the audience here,

这里观众们的反馈，

because I know there's widely differing reactions

因为我知道对于爱德华‧斯诺登

to Edward Snowden.

有很多争议。

Suppose you had the following two choices, right?

假设您有以下两个选择，好吗？

You could view what he did

您可以认为他所做的事

as fundamentally a reckless act

从根本上说是鲁莽的行为，

that has endangered America

将美国置于危险境地，

or you could view it as fundamentally a heroic act

或者你认为它是英勇的行为，

that will work towards America and the world's

将对美国以及全世界

long-term good?

带来长远的利好？

Those are the two choices I'll give you.

这是我给你的两个选择。

I'm curious to see who's willing to vote with

我很好奇，谁愿意投一票

the first of those,

给第一种，

that this was a reckless act?

认为这是一种鲁莽的行为?

There are some hands going up.

我看到有手举起来了。

Some hands going up.

又有一些人举起了手。

It's hard to put your hand up

当这个人站在这里的时候

when the man is standing right here,

很难举手，

but I see them.

但我看到他们。

ES: I can see you. (Laughter)

爱德华‧斯诺登： 我能看到你哦。（笑声）

CA: And who goes with the second choice,

克里斯‧安德森：谁选择第二项，

the fundamentally heroic act?

从根本上说英雄行为？

(Applause) (Cheers)

（掌声）(欢呼)

And I think it's true to say that there are a lot of people

事实上，有很多人

who didn't show a hand and I think

并没有举手，我认为

are still thinking this through,

他们都还在思考这件事，

because it seems to me that the debate around you

在我看来，围绕你的辩论

doesn't split along traditional political lines.

不会跟随传统政治逻辑。

It's not left or right, it's not really about

它不左亦不右，它不是关于

pro-government, libertarian, or not just that.

亲政府、自由主义论者，或其他的什么。

Part of it is almost a generational issue.

它几乎可以算是一代人的问题。

You're part of a generation that grew up

你是和互联网共同成长的

with the Internet, and it seems as if

那代人之一，似乎

you become offended at almost a visceral level

你感到被强烈地冒犯到了

when you see something done

当你看到某些事

that you think will harm the Internet.

会损害互联网的时候。

Is there some truth to that?

是这样的吗？

ES: It is. I think it's very true.

爱德华‧斯诺登： 是。非常正确。

This is not a left or right issue.

这不是左或右的问题。

Our basic freedoms, and when I say our,

我们的基本自由，当我说“我们”，

I don't just mean Americans,

我指的不仅仅是美国人，

I mean people around the world,

我是指世界各地的人们，

it's not a partisan issue.

它不是一个党派问题。

These are things that all people believe,

这些是人们的共同信仰的信念，

and it's up to all of us to protect them,

并且应该由我们来保护它，

and to people who have seen and enjoyed

对那些享受

一个自由开放的网络的人们，

a free and open Internet,

it's up to us to preserve that liberty

应该由我们来保护这样的自由

for the next generation to enjoy,

让我们下一代继续享有，

and if we don't change things,

如果我们不做出改变，

if we don't stand up to make the changes

如果我们不有所行动做出改变

we need to do to keep the Internet safe,

我们要努力保持互联网的安全，

not just for us but for everyone,

不只为自己，而是为每一个人，

否则我们会失去这样的安全和自由，

we're going to lose that,

and that would be a tremendous loss,

那就会是一个巨大的损失，

not just for us, but for the world.

对我们和全世界而言。

CA: Well, I have heard similar language recently

克里斯‧安德森： 嗯，我最近 从万维网的创始人那里

from the founder of the world wide web,

听到类似的言论，

who I actually think is with us, Sir Tim Berners-Lee.

他就在会议现场， 蒂姆‧伯纳斯-李爵士。

Tim, actually, would you like to come up and say,

蒂姆，你愿意过来参与讨论吗？

do we have a microphone for Tim?

请为蒂姆拿麦克风。

(Applause)

（掌声）

Tim, good to see you. Come up there.

蒂姆，很高兴见到你。请来这里。

Which camp are you in, by the way,

顺便问一句，你站在哪边，

traitor, hero? I have a theory on this, but --

叛徒、英雄？我有一个理论，但是

Tim Berners-Lee: I've given much longer

蒂姆‧伯纳斯-李：我已经给出了

answers to that question, but hero,

这个问题的答案，英雄，

if I have to make the choice between the two.

如果我要在这两个之间 作出选择的话。

CA: And Ed, I think you've read

克里斯‧安德森： 爱德华，我想你看过

the proposal that Sir Tim has talked about

蒂姆爵士说到的提案，

about a new Magna Carta to take back the Internet.

用大宪章夺回互联网。

Is that something that makes sense?

这样的东西有意义吗？

ES: Absolutely. I mean, my generation, I grew up

爱德华‧斯诺登： 绝对有。 我的意思是，我这一代

not just thinking about the Internet,

不只是随着互联网一起成长，

but I grew up in the Internet,

而是成长于互联网，

and although I never expected to have the chance

虽然我从未想过有机会

to defend it in such a direct and practical manner

用如此直接又实际的方式 来保卫它，

and to embody it in this unusual,

并且以这种不寻常的，

almost avatar manner,

几乎阿凡达的方式，

I think there's something poetic about the fact that

我想有些诗意的事是，

one of the sons of the Internet

互联网的孩子之一

has actually become close to the Internet

由于他们的政治表达，

as a result of their political expression.

已实际上和互联网非常亲近了。

And I believe that a Magna Carta for the Internet

我相信，关于互联网的大宪章

is exactly what we need.

正是我们所需要的。

We need to encode our values

我们需要加入我们的价值观，

not just in writing but in the structure of the Internet,

不只是以书面形式， 也是在互联网的结构方面，

and it's something that I hope,

这是我所希望看到的，

I invite everyone in the audience,

我邀请每位观众，

not just here in Vancouver but around the world,

不只是在温哥华这里的， 也包括世界各地的人

to join and participate in.

加入和参与进来。

CA: Do you have a question for Ed?

克里斯‧安德森：你还有 什么问题想问爱德华吗？

TBL: Well, two questions,

蒂姆‧伯纳斯-李: 嗯，两个问题，

a general question —

一个一般的问题——

CA: Ed, can you still hear us?

克里斯‧安德森：爱德华， 你还能听到我们吗？

ES: Yes, I can hear you. CA: Oh, he's back.

爱德华‧斯诺登：是，我可以听到。 克里斯‧安德森： 哦，他回来了。

TBL: The wiretap on your line

蒂姆‧伯纳斯-李：你线上的窃听器

got a little interfered with for a moment.

这会儿有点儿被干扰了。

(Laughter)

（笑声）

ES: It's a little bit of an NSA problem.

爱德华‧斯诺登： 是有点儿国安局的问题。

TBL: So, from the 25 years,

蒂姆‧伯纳斯-李： 那么，从 25 年，

stepping back and thinking,

回过头来思考，

what would you think would be

你认为

the best that we could achieve

基于现在的讨论，

from all the discussions that we have

关于想要怎样的网络环境，

about the web we want?

我们能做到的最好状态是什么？

ES: When we think about

爱德华‧斯诺登：当我们想到

in terms of how far we can go,

我们能走多远，

I think that's a question that's really only limited

我认为这个问题仅仅是关于

by what we're willing to put into it.

我们愿意投入些什么。

I think the Internet that we've enjoyed in the past

我想我们过去所享受的互联网

has been exactly what we as not just a nation

也正是我们作为一个国家的人民

but as a people around the world need,

和世界各地的人们所需要的，

and by cooperating, by engaging not just

开展合作，不只是让

the technical parts of society,

技术部分参与进来，

but as you said, the users,

而是正如你所说的，用户们，

the people around the world who contribute

全世界那些使用互联网，

through the Internet, through social media,

通过互联网，通过社会媒体，

who just check the weather,

哪怕只是看看天气的人，

who rely on it every day as a part of their life,

那些将互联网视作生活一部分 依靠互联网度过每一天的人，

to champion that.

来达到目标。

We'll get not just the Internet we've had,

我们将得到的不只是 我们已拥有的互联网，

but a better Internet, a better now,

而是一个更好的互联网， 更好的当下，

something that we can use to build a future

我们可以用来建立未来的东西

that'll be better not just than what we hoped for

比我们所期待的好，

but anything that we could have imagined.

比我们所能想象的好。

CA: It's 30 years ago that TED was founded, 1984.

克里斯‧安德森： TED 创建于 30 年前，1984 年，

A lot of the conversation since then has been

自那时以来，许多的对话

along the lines that

是关于

actually George Orwell got it wrong.

其实，乔治‧奥威尔错了。

It's not Big Brother watching us.

不是老大哥在看着我们。

We, through the power of the web,

我们，通过网络的力量，

and transparency, are now watching Big Brother.

和透明度，正在看着老大哥。

Your revelations kind of drove a stake

你的揭示正如一个木桩

through the heart of that rather optimistic view,

穿过乐观看法的心脏，

but you still believe there's a way of doing something

但你仍然相信有办法

about that.

对此做出反应。

And you do too.

你也这样做了。

ES: Right, so there is an argument to be made

爱德华‧斯诺登：对的， 有这样的说法，

that the powers of Big Brother have increased enormously.

老大哥的权力 得到了大幅度增长。

There was a recent legal article at Yale

耶鲁大学有最近有篇法律文章

that established something called the Bankston-Soltani Principle,

建立了 Bankston-Soltani 原则，

which is that our expectation of privacy is violated

意思是，我们对私隐的期望

when the capabilities of government surveillance

在当政府监控能力的

have become cheaper by an order of magnitude,

成本变得越发低廉的时候 被违反了，

and each time that occurs, we need to revisit

每次发生这类状况时， 我们需要重新审视

and rebalance our privacy rights.

和重新平衡我们的隐私权利。

Now, that hasn't happened since

现在，政府的监控权力

the government's surveillance powers

增加了数个级别，

have increased by several orders of magnitude,

然而我们什么都没做。

and that's why we're in the problem that we're in today,

这就是我们今天 所遇到的问题，

but there is still hope,

但，仍然是有希望的，

because the power of individuals

因为个人的力量

have also been increased by technology.

也因科技得到了增强。

I am living proof

我就是活生生的例子

that an individual can go head to head

个人可以去和

against the most powerful adversaries

全世界范围内 最强大的对手

and the most powerful intelligence agencies

最强大的情报机构

around the world and win,

正面交锋并且赢得胜利，

and I think that's something

我认为这就是

that we need to take hope from,

我们希望的来源，

and we need to build on

我们要继续建立

to make it accessible not just to technical experts

让从技术专家

but to ordinary citizens around the world.

世界各地的普通公民 都能访问。

Journalism is not a crime,

新闻不是一种犯罪，

communication is not a crime,

沟通不是一种犯罪，

and we should not be monitored in our everyday activities.

我们的日常生活不应当被监视。

CA: I'm not quite sure how you shake the hand of a bot,

克里斯‧安德森：我不太清楚 如何和你的移动机器人握手，

but I imagine it's, this is the hand right here. TBL: That'll come very soon.

但我想象手放在这里。 蒂姆‧伯纳斯-李：很快就会实现。

ES: Nice to meet you,

爱德华‧斯诺登： 很高兴见到你，

and I hope my beam looks as nice

我希望我看起来很好，

as my view of you guys does.

正如我看到你们的样子。

CA: Thank you, Tim.

克里斯‧安德森： 谢谢你，蒂姆。

(Applause)

（掌声）

I mean, The New York Times recently called for an amnesty for you.

纽约时报最近呼吁对你大赦。

Would you welcome the chance to come back to America?

你会接受回到美国的机会吗？

ES: Absolutely. There's really no question,

爱德华‧斯诺登： 绝对。真的没有问题，

the principles that have been the foundation

这一项目所基于的

of this project

原则

have been the public interest

是公众利益

and the principles that underly

以及那建基于美国以及世界各地

the journalistic establishment in the United States

新闻业基石

的原则，

and around the world,

and I think if the press is now saying,

我觉得如果现在媒体说，

we support this,

我们支持这些，

this is something that needed to happen,

这是会发生， 也是需要发生的，

that's a powerful argument, but it's not the final argument,

这是一个有力的论据， 但不是最终论据，

and I think that's something that public should decide.

我认为这是该交由公众决定的。

But at the same time,

但在同一时间，

the government has hinted that they want

政府曾暗示他们想要

some kind of deal,

某种交易，

that they want me to compromise

他们想让我妥协

the journalists with which I've been working,

一直以来和我一起工作的记者们

to come back,

回来，

and I want to make it very clear

我想要清楚地表明

that I did not do this to be safe.

我这么做不是为了安全。

I did this to do what was right,

我做的是正确的事，

and I'm not going to stop my work

我不会停止我的工作

in the public interest

放弃公众利益，

just to benefit myself.

只是为了使自己受益。

(Applause)

（鼓掌）

CA: In the meantime,

克里斯‧安德森：与此同时，

courtesy of the Internet and this technology,

感谢网络和这项科技成果，

you're here, back in North America,

你在这里，以这种形式，回到了北美，

not quite the U.S., Canada, in this form.

不是美国，而是加拿大。

I'm curious, how does that feel?

我很好奇，你感觉怎样？

ES: Canada is different than what I expected.

爱德华‧斯诺登： 加拿大和我所期待的不同。

It's a lot warmer.

温暖多了。

(Laughter)

（笑声）

CA: At TED, the mission is "ideas worth spreading."

克里斯‧安德森：在 TED， 我们的宗旨是“值得传播的思想”，

If you could encapsulate it in a single idea,

如果你能精华到一个想法，

what is your idea worth spreading

什么是当下你认为

right now at this moment?

值得传播的思想呢？

ES: I would say the last year has been a reminder

爱德华‧斯诺登：我想说， 去年发生的事提醒我们

that democracy may die behind closed doors,

在紧闭的门前，民主也许已经覆灭，

but we as individuals are born

但我们作为个体

behind those same closed doors,

在紧闭的门后出生，

and we don't have to give up

我们没必要为了好的政府

our privacy to have good government.

而放弃自己的隐私。

We don't have to give up our liberty

我们没必要为了安全

to have security.

而放弃我们的自由。

And I think by working together

并且我认为，通过合作

we can have both open government

我们可以同时拥有开放的政府

and private lives,

和私人的生活，

and I look forward to working with everyone

我想和世界上的每一位共同努力

around the world to see that happen.

来期待这天的到来。

Thank you very much.

非常感谢。

CA: Ed, thank you.

克里斯‧安德森：爱德华，谢谢你。

(Applause)

（鼓掌）