How we take back the internet | Edward Snowden

譯者: Samson Zhong 審譯者: Jovian Chu

Chris Anderson: The rights of citizens,

克里斯‧安德森 (Chris Anderson): 要談公民權

the future of the Internet.

還有網路的未來發展

So I would like to welcome to the TED stage

就想到這位揭露一切真相的人

the man behind those revelations,

讓我們歡迎他上臺

Ed Snowden.

愛德華‧史諾登(Edward Snowden)

(Applause)

(觀眾鼓掌)

Ed is in a remote location somewhere in Russia

他目前藏身俄羅斯偏鄉

controlling this bot from his laptop,

以筆電操控這個機器人

so he can see what the bot can see.

藉著機器人觀看現場

Ed, welcome to the TED stage.

愛德華，歡迎蒞臨TED講壇

What can you see, as a matter of fact?

你目前實際能見範圍有多少？

Edward Snowden: Ha, I can see everyone.

愛德華．史諾登：我看得到所有人

This is amazing.

好神奇！

(Laughter)

(笑聲)

克里斯：請教一下

CA: Ed, some questions for you.

You've been called many things

過去5個月來

in the last few months.

有各種稱呼你的方式:

You've been called a whistleblower, a traitor,

像告密者、叛國賊

a hero.

還有英雄

What words would you describe yourself with?

你又是如何看待自己的？

ES: You know, everybody who is involved

愛德華：所有就這件事

with this debate

爭論過的人

has been struggling over me and my personality

總是針對我和我的人格

and how to describe me.

以及如何來形容我 而爭辯不休

But when I think about it,

但我仔細一想

this isn't the question that we should be struggling with.

這根本不該是爭辯的問題

Who I am really doesn't matter at all.

我是誰一點也不重要

若我是這世上最差勁的人

If I'm the worst person in the world,

you can hate me and move on.

你們大可恨我並繼續過生活

What really matters here are the issues.

以下這些議題才是重點 :

What really matters here is the kind of government we want,

真正重要的是我們要何種政府?

the kind of Internet we want,

還有我們想要什麽樣的網路？

the kind of relationship between people

甚至我們希望人與社會間

and societies.

存在何種關係?

And that's what I'm hoping the debate will move towards,

這才是我認為社會公論 應該進行的方向

and we've seen that increasing over time.

這樣的討論趨勢也 越來越明顯

If I had to describe myself,

若要我描述自已

I wouldn't use words like "hero."

我不會用英雄這類字眼

I wouldn't use "patriot," and I wouldn't use "traitor."

也不會自稱愛國者或叛國賊

I'd say I'm an American and I'm a citizen,

我會說自己跟大家没兩樣

just like everyone else.

都是美國公民

CA: So just to give some context

克里斯：為了讓不了解 事件過程的人

for those who don't know the whole story --

了解來龍去脈

(Applause) —

（掌聲響起）

this time a year ago, you were stationed in Hawaii

一年前的此時你還是 美國國家安全局

working as a consultant to the NSA.

派駐夏威夷的顧問

As a sysadmin, you had access

因為你是系統管理師

to their systems,

有權限進入該局系統

and you began revealing certain classified documents

所以你將特定機密檔案

透露給指定的媒體

to some handpicked journalists

在2013年6月率先揭發內幕

leading the way to June's revelations.

Now, what propelled you to do this?

這樣做是基於何種動機？

愛德華：你知道嗎?

ES: You know,

多年前我派駐夏威夷

when I was sitting in Hawaii,

and the years before, when I was working in the intelligence community,

從事情治工作時

I saw a lot of things that had disturbed me.

見過不少讓我不安的事

We do a lot of good things in the intelligence community,

我們在情治單位 其實也有不少貢獻

things that need to be done,

而且都是必要

and things that help everyone.

對公眾有益的

But there are also things that go too far.

但也有過分踰矩的作為

There are things that shouldn't be done,

更有一些根本不該去做的事

and decisions that were being made in secret

還有黑箱決策

without the public's awareness,

大眾根本不知情

without the public's consent,

更別說同意

and without even our representatives in government

就連代表民意的國會議員

having knowledge of these programs.

也被矇在鼓裡

When I really came to struggle with these issues,

當這些問題 讓我陷入天人交戰時

I thought to myself,

我暗自思索

how can I do this in the most responsible way,

該怎樣以最負責任的方式

that maximizes the public benefit

為大眾謀取最大福利

while minimizing the risks?

並將風險減到最低？

And out of all the solutions that I could come up with,

不管是我自己絞盡腦汁 想辦法也好

out of going to Congress,

透過國會程序也好

when there were no laws,

there were no legal protections

由於事發當時 還沒有相關條文

也沒有法律救濟

for a private employee,

來保護像我這樣的體制外僱員

a contractor in intelligence like myself,

像我一樣的情報單位合約僱員

there was a risk that I would be buried along with the information

只要有動作 就有和情報一起消失的危險

and the public would never find out.

大眾永遠不會知情

But the First Amendment of the United States Constitution

但美國憲法第一修正案

guarantees us a free press for a reason,

保障新聞自由的原因

and that's to enable an adversarial press,

就是要賦予媒體抗辯權

to challenge the government,

能夠挑戰政府的作為

but also to work together with the government,

同時也與政府合作

to have a dialogue and debate about how we can

inform the public about matters of vital importance

就如何在不危及 國家安全的條件下

告知大眾切身攸關的大事

without putting our national security at risk.

進行對談與辯論

And by working with journalists,

靠著與媒體記者合作

by giving all of my information

我將掌握到的資訊

back to the American people,

歸還美國人民

rather than trusting myself to make

而非靠我自己判斷

the decisions about publication,

是否要公開

we've had a robust debate

大家對此已經有過相當 踴躍的辯論

with a deep investment by the government

政府方面的鼓勵大家關心 的投入也不惶多讓

that I think has resulted in a benefit for everyone.

我認為這對大家都好

And the risks that have been threatened,

而那些政府

警告和過分強調的

the risks that have been played up

種種危機

by the government

have never materialized.

從來沒應驗過

We've never seen any evidence

目前從未有證據

of even a single instance of specific harm,

顯示任何相關危害的案例

正因如此

and because of that,

我對自己的決定很放心

I'm comfortable with the decisions that I made.

CA: So let me show the audience

克里斯：我想讓觀眾看一下

兩個你揭發過的案例

a couple of examples of what you revealed.

If we could have a slide up, and Ed,

可以幫我放一下投影片嗎？

I don't know whether you can see,

不知愛德華你是否看得到?

the slides are here.

投影片巳打在瑩幕上

This is a slide of the PRISM program,

這張是有關稜鏡計畫 (PRISM) 的

and maybe you could tell the audience

也許你可以跟觀眾解釋

what that was that was revealed.

已公開的資訊有哪些內容

ES: The best way to understand PRISM,

愛德華：因為有些爭議

because there's been a little bit of controversy,

所以了解此計畫最好的方式

is to first talk about what PRISM isn't.

就是先排除不相關的部份

Much of the debate in the U.S. has been about metadata.

在美國引發辯論的大多是 中繼資料 (metadata)

They've said it's just metadata, it's just metadata,

官方也始終宣稱只是中繼資料

and they're talking about a specific legal authority

目前他們援引的法理是

called Section 215 of the Patriot Act.

《愛國者法案》第215款

That allows sort of a warrantless wiretapping,

該條文形同容許非法監聽

mass surveillance of the entire country's

並能廣泛地監控全國通聯紀錄

phone records, things like that --

或施行類似的手段

who you're talking to,

像通話對象

when you're talking to them,

通聯時間

和旅行地點

where you traveled.

These are all metadata events.

都是中繼資料搜集的範圍

PRISM is about content.

「稜鏡」涉及的是通訊內容

It's a program through which the government could

這計畫讓美國政府

compel corporate America,

得以驅使美國企業

it could deputize corporate America

並授權給他們

to do its dirty work for the NSA.

為國家安全局做些不法勾當

And even though some of these companies did resist,

儘管有些企業確實抗拒過

even though some of them --

即使雅虎（Yahoo）等

I believe Yahoo was one of them —

challenged them in court, they all lost,

這些公司曾訴諸法律

不過都鍛羽而歸

because it was never tried by an open court.

因為都不是在公開庭審理

They were only tried by a secret court.

而僅以不公開方式 進行審判

And something that we've seen,

我們目睹過稜鏡計畫中的 某些部分

something about the PRISM program that's very concerning to me is,

有些部分格外令我憂心

there's been a talking point in the U.S. government

美國政府內部曾存在一種論據

where they've said 15 federal judges

說有15位聯邦法官

重審過這些計畫 並判決計劃屬於合法行動

have reviewed these programs and found them to be lawful,

but what they don't tell you

不過政府不會告訴你

is those are secret judges

審判程序其實是 秘密進行

在不公開庭當中

in a secret court

based on secret interpretations of law

基於政府對法律的片面解讀

that's considered 34,000 warrant requests

過去33年中

政府申請過3萬4千筆搜索票

over 33 years,

and in 33 years only rejected

33年中

僅有11件申請被駁回

11 government requests.

These aren't the people that we want deciding

我們認為不應該由 這些仲裁者決定

what the role of corporate America

美國企業

in a free and open Internet should be.

在自由開放的網路中 扮演的角色

CA: Now, this slide that we're showing here

克里斯：接下來的投影片顯示

shows the dates in which

各家科技和網路公司

different technology companies, Internet companies,

據傳涉入稜鏡計畫

are alleged to have joined the program,

以及資料蒐集活動

and where data collection began from them.

起始的日期

Now, they have denied collaborating with the NSA.

不過他們都否認與美國 國家安全局合作

How was that data collected by the NSA?

到底國家安全局是 怎樣蒐集資料的？

ES: Right. So the NSA's own slides

愛德華：是這樣的， 在他們的簡報中

refer to it as direct access.

這叫遠端存取

What that means to an actual NSA analyst,

對我們美國國安局 情報分析師

someone like me who was working as an intelligence analyst

也就是像我一樣 分析情報資料

targeting, Chinese cyber-hackers,

例如在夏威夷鎖定 中國網路駭客

things like that, in Hawaii,

或做其他 類似工作的人來說

is the provenance of that data

遠端存取就是

is directly from their servers.

直接從他人伺服器攫取資料

It doesn't mean

這並不表示

that there's a group of company representatives

有一大群公司代表

sitting in a smoky room with the NSA

與國安局的人同坐在 煙霧繚繞的房間裡

palling around and making back-room deals

套交情搞暗盤

about how they're going to give this stuff away.

商議著該如何移轉資料

Now each company handles it different ways.

各公司的做法都有所不同

Some are responsible.

有些採取負責任的方式

Some are somewhat less responsible.

有些就比較輕忽

But the bottom line is, when we talk about

不過重點是

how this information is given,

當談到資料如何移轉

it's coming from the companies themselves.

其實是公司自己交出的

It's not stolen from the lines.

並非從線上竊取

But there's an important thing to remember here:

不過有一點是必須記得的

even though companies pushed back,

就算公司抵制這樣的做法

even though companies demanded,

甚至要求依法行事，像是

hey, let's do this through a warrant process,

「我們透過正當搜索程序 來進行吧」

let's do this

「就這麼辦吧！」

where we actually have some sort of legal review,

為此我們真的研究過相關法律

some sort of basis for handing over

好確定交出資料是合法的

these users' data,

關於這些用戶資訊

we saw stories in the Washington Post last year

去年華盛頓郵報就報過了好幾則

that weren't as well reported as the PRISM story

不過稜鏡計畫的報導比較精彩

that said the NSA broke in

其中提到美國國安局侵入

to the data center communications

企業資訊伺服器中心

between Google to itself

竊取Google內部的資訊溝通

and Yahoo to itself.

對雅虎也如法炮製

So even these companies that are cooperating

有此可見，即使公司勉強

in at least a compelled but hopefully lawful manner

在法律邊緣

配合美國國安局行事

with the NSA,

the NSA isn't satisfied with that,

但國安局要得其實更多

and because of that, we need our companies

因此我們呼籲公司

to work very hard

竭盡全力

to guarantee that they're going to represent

確保他們會堅守

捍衛使用權利益的立場 並且極力倡導

the interests of the user, and also advocate

for the rights of the users.

使用者的權益維護

And I think over the last year,

we've seen the companies that are named

去年一整年我都在想

剛才那張稜鏡計畫簡報

on the PRISM slides

take great strides to do that,

點名的公司

已經放手去做這件事

and I encourage them to continue.

而我鼓勵他們持續下去

CA: What more should they do?

克里斯：他們還有哪些事該做？

ES: The biggest thing that an Internet company

愛德華：目前美國的網路公司

in America can do today, right now,

在保護全球用戶權利上

without consulting with lawyers,

不需涉及法律層面

to protect the rights of users worldwide,

又最能著力的一點

is to enable SSL web encryption

就是為每個網頁

啟用傳輸安全層機制

on every page you visit.

The reason this matters is today,

這很重要的理由是: 如果今天

if you go to look at a copy of "1984" on Amazon.com,

你上亞馬遜網路書店流覽 《1984》這本小說

the NSA can see a record of that,

美國國安局看得到瀏覽記錄

the Russian intelligence service can see a record of that,

俄國也能

the Chinese service can see a record of that,

中國也是

the French service, the German service,

德法也不例外

the services of Andorra.

甚至安道拉親王國（歐洲） 都辦得到

They can all see it because it's unencrypted.

沒有加密保護 就無法防範這些窺視

The world's library is Amazon.com,

亞馬遜是全球書庫

but not only do they not support encryption by default,

但他們不是唯一 沒預設加密保護的

you cannot choose to use encryption

你甚至不能選擇以加密方式

when browsing through books.

上網瀏覽書籍

This is something that we need to change,

這樣的事必須有所改變

not just for Amazon, I don't mean to single them out,

這不是針對亞馬遜 我不是要找他們碴

but they're a great example.

不過他們是個明顯的例子

All companies need to move

事實上所有公司 都得付出行動

to an encrypted browsing habit by default

預設加密的網路瀏覽

for all users who haven't taken any action

對尚未採取任何行動

or picked any special methods on their own.

或主動使用特定措施的用戶

That'll increase the privacy and the rights

加密可強化隱私

that people enjoy worldwide.

同時保護全球用戶權利

CA: Ed, come with me to this part of the stage.

克里斯：愛德華請跟我來

我想給你看下一張投影片（掌聲）

I want to show you the next slide here. (Applause)

This is a program called Boundless Informant.

這程式叫《神通線民》 (Boundless Informant)

What is that?

是什麼樣的程式呢？

ES: So, I've got to give credit to the NSA

愛德華：我得佩服美國國安局

for using appropriate names on this.

取了這麼貼切的名字

This is one of my favorite NSA cryptonyms.

在他們取的代號中 這算我最愛的一個

Boundless Informant

美國國安局對國會隱瞞

is a program that the NSA hid from Congress.

《神通線民》這個程式

The NSA was previously asked by Congress,

美國國會質詢過國安局

was there any ability that they had

國家是否有能力

to even give a rough ballpark estimate

就美國境內

通訊監聽的數量

of the amount of American communications

作粗略的估計？

that were being intercepted.

國安局回答:不行 因為他們不追蹤相關統計

They said no. They said, we don't track those stats,

也無法追蹤相關資料

and we can't track those stats.

We can't tell you how many communications

所以全球有多少通訊 遭到監聽

他們無可奉告

we're intercepting around the world,

因為透露這項資訊

because to tell you that would be

to invade your privacy.

等同侵犯隱私

Now, I really appreciate that sentiment from them,

我尊重他們對此事的意見

but the reality, when you look at this slide is,

不過實際上 若你仔細研究這張投影片

not only do they have the capability,

國安局不但

the capability already exists.

早就有監聽能力

It's already in place.

而且已經這樣做了

The NSA has its own internal data format

國安局內部的資料格式

that tracks both ends of a communication,

可監控通訊雙方

and if it says,

若資料顯示

this communication came from America,

通訊由美國本土發出

they can tell Congress how many of those communications

國安局等便可向國會說明

they have today, right now.

目前掌握多少通訊內容

And what Boundless Informant tells us

而「神通線民的」所透露的

is more communications are being intercepted

就是通訊內容被監聽的狀況

in America about Americans

與俄國境內的俄國人相較

美國人在國內受害更深

than there are in Russia about Russians.

I'm not sure that's what an intelligence agency

我不確定情治單位

should be aiming for.

是否該致力於此

CA: Ed, there was a story broken in the Washington Post,

克里斯：但愛德華我跟你說 華盛頓郵報曾報導

again from your data.

同樣是根據你的資料

The headline says,

標題是這樣的：

"NSA broke privacy rules

「美國國安局觸犯隱私的頻率

thousands of times per year."

每年多達數千次」

Tell us about that.

跟我們解釋一下吧

ES: We also heard in Congressional testimony last year,

愛德華：去年我們也參與了 國會聽證會

it was an amazing thing for someone like me

當時感覺真奇妙 !

who came from the NSA

當我們來自國安局的人

and who's seen the actual internal documents,

以及看過實際內部文件

knows what's in them,

知曉內容的人

to see officials testifying under oath

看著官員 眼睜睜立誓擔保:

that there had been no abuses,

國安局沒有濫用監聽權

that there had been no violations of the NSA's rules,

沒有任何違反國安局的規定

when we knew this story was coming.

與此同時，我們也知道 華盛頓郵報這篇報導即將公開

But what's especially interesting about this,

不過特別令人玩味的是

about the fact that the NSA has violated

關於國安局

their own rules, their own laws

違反業務相關規定 及法律的情形

thousands of times in a single year,

一年之中高達上千次

including one event by itself,

有個特殊的個案

one event out of those 2,776,

在2,776件案例之中

這個單一案件 就牽連了3,000人以上

that affected more than 3,000 people.

In another event, they intercepted

在另一個事件中 國安局

all the calls in Washington, D.C., by accident.

在意外的情況下 截聽到華盛頓首府的所有電話

What's amazing about this,

令人訝異的是

this report, that didn't get that much attention,

這份沒有引發太多關注的報告

is the fact that not only were there 2,776 abuses,

揭露的不只是監聽權濫用案 高達2,776件

the chairman of the Senate Intelligence Committee,

而是連參議院情報委員會主席

Dianne Feinstein, had not seen this report

黛安．范士丹(Dianne Feinstein) 都沒看過該份報告

until the Washington Post contacted her

直到華盛頓郵報聯絡上她

請她就此發表看法

asking for comment on the report.

And she then requested a copy from the NSA

她才從美國國安局

and received it,

要到一份副本

but had never seen this before that.

不過之前她毫不知情

What does that say about the state of oversight

美國情治單位 怠忽職守的程度

in American intelligence

由此可見一般

when the chairman of the Senate Intelligence Committee

竟連參議院情報委員會主席

has no idea that the rules are being broken

都不知道

每年有數千件的違規情事

thousands of times every year?

CA: Ed, one response to this whole debate is this:

克里斯：人們對相關爭議的 其中一個反應是

Why should we care about

坦白說，我們為何要在意

all this surveillance, honestly?

這些監控措施？

I mean, look, if you've done nothing wrong,

我的意思是，若問心無愧

you've got nothing to worry about.

有什麼好擔心的？

What's wrong with that point of view?

這樣的觀點有何不妥？

ES: Well, so the first thing is,

愛德華：首先

you're giving up your rights.

這種態度 等於放棄自身權利

You're saying hey, you know,

好像在說：

「我應該不需要加密功能啦，

I don't think I'm going to need them,

so I'm just going to trust that, you know,

信任網路環境就好了吧

let's get rid of them, it doesn't really matter,

不用管那麼多啦， 沒什麼大不了的吧?

these guys are going to do the right thing.

政府會規規矩矩做事啦。」

Your rights matter

其實個人權利很重要

because you never know when you're going to need them.

說不定哪天會派上用場

Beyond that, it's a part of our cultural identity,

除此以外 這也關係著我們的文化認同

not just in America,

不只是美國

but in Western societies

還有整體西方社會

and in democratic societies around the world.

和全球民主化社會 的文化認同

People should be able to pick up the phone

民眾應該能

撥電話給家人

and to call their family,

people should be able to send a text message

民眾應該能傳送簡訊

to their loved ones,

給摯愛的人們

people should be able to buy a book online,

應該能上網買書

they should be able to travel by train,

坐火車旅行

they should be able to buy an airline ticket

線上訂機票

without wondering about how these events

而無須顧慮

are going to look to an agent of the government,

未來數年內

這些通訊可能會被 本國政府單位

possibly not even your government

甚至是外國政府窺視

years in the future,

還有內容會如何被曲解？

how they're going to be misinterpreted

and what they're going to think your intentions were.

讓自己的意圖遭到質疑

We have a right to privacy.

我們有權保護隱私

We require warrants to be based on probable cause

要求正當理由的合法搜索

or some kind of individualized suspicion

或是針對特定人的 犯罪嫌疑搜索

because we recognize that trusting anybody,

這是因為我們了解

將所有人際通訊

any government authority,

託付給任何個人或政府

with the entirety of human communications

而期望上述個人或政府 能守密並且毫不懈怠

in secret and without oversight

is simply too great a temptation to be ignored.

實在是一個令人無法忽視 的強大誘惑

克里斯：你做的事讓某些人很憤怒

CA: Some people are furious at what you've done.

I heard a quote recently from Dick Cheney

我最近才聽過 迪克．錢尼(Dick Cheney)的說法

who said that Julian Assange was a flea bite,

他說朱利安．阿桑奇(Julian Assange) 像是惱人的跳蚤

反觀愛德華．史諾登 卻造成莫大傷害

Edward Snowden is the lion that bit the head off the dog.

He thinks you've committed

他認為你所犯下的

one of the worst acts of betrayal

是一種美國有史以來

in American history.

惡行最重大的叛國罪

What would you say to people who think that?

對那些有同感的人 你有話要說嗎？

ES: Dick Cheney's really something else.

愛德華：迪克．錢尼果真很另類！

(Laughter) (Applause)

（觀眾會心一笑夾雜掌聲）

（笑著說）謝謝大家！

Thank you. (Laughter)

I think it's amazing, because at the time

我覺得很詫異

朱利安．阿桑奇在從事一些 貢獻宏偉的工作時

Julian Assange was doing some of his greatest work,

Dick Cheney was saying

當時迪克．錢尼說

he was going to end governments worldwide,

他會把所有的政府搞垮

the skies were going to ignite

到時將風雲變色

and the seas were going to boil off,

怒海翻騰

and now he's saying it's a flea bite.

現在反被說得微不足道

So we should be suspicious about the same sort of

因此對於相關官員

把對國家安全危害誇大的說法

overblown claims of damage to national security

我們應該有所保留

from these kind of officials.

But let's assume that these people really believe this.

不過姑且假設這些人真這麼想

I would argue that they have kind of

那我認為

他們對國家安全的概念很狹隘

a narrow conception of national security.

The prerogatives of people like Dick Cheney

像迪克．錢尼 這些位高權重的人

do not keep the nation safe.

並未善盡保衛國家安全 的重責大任

The public interest is not always the same

大眾利益不會總是

as the national interest.

和國家利益相同

Going to war with people who are not our enemy

跟並不敵對的他國人民交戰

在不構成威脅的地域交戰

in places that are not a threat

doesn't make us safe,

不會讓大家更安全

and that applies whether it's in Iraq

這道理不管在伊拉克

or on the Internet.

還是網路上都適用

The Internet is not the enemy.

網絡不是敵人

Our economy is not the enemy.

美國的經濟也不是

American businesses, Chinese businesses,

美國和中國的企業

and any other company out there

還有世界上任何公司

都是我們社會的一部分

is a part of our society.

It's a part of our interconnected world.

構成我們所處的世界

There are ties of fraternity that bond us together,

邦誼拉近我們的關係

and if we destroy these bonds

但若我們破壞那些標準、規範

by undermining the standards, the security,

還有那些各國政府和公民

the manner of behavior,

期待我們遵守的

that nations and citizens all around the world

行為規範

就會破壞了這樣的關係

expect us to abide by.

CA: But it's alleged that you've stolen

克里斯：據傳

你"盜取"了170萬份文件

1.7 million documents.

It seems only a few hundred of them

不過目前看來

have been shared with journalists so far.

透露給媒體的不過幾百份

Are there more revelations to come?

之後還會有更多消息曝光嗎？

愛德華：當然有！

ES: There are absolutely more revelations to come.

I don't think there's any question

我非常確定

that some of the most important reporting

一些最關键的報告

to be done is yet to come.

尚未曝光

克里斯：過來看！關於這個曝光的消息

CA: Come here, because I want to ask you

about this particular revelation.

我有事請教

Come and take a look at this.

你來看一下！

I mean, this is a story which I think for a lot of the techies in this room

接著要談的這則新聞，我認為

是現場許多科技行家

is the single most shocking thing

過去數月來所聽過最驚人的事情

that they have heard in the last few months.

It's about a program called "Bullrun."

是有關牛奔程式（Bullrun）的

Can you explain what that is?

你能解釋一下那是什麼嗎?

ES: So Bullrun, and this is again

愛德華：這命名同樣讓我們

where we've got to thank the NSA for their candor,

不得不感謝美國國安局的坦率

this is a program named after a Civil War battle.

這程式是以美國內戰的 戰役名稱命名的

The British counterpart is called Edgehill,

在英國類似的軟體叫刃峰（Edgehill）

which is a U.K. civil war battle.

是以英國內戰戰役命名

And the reason that I believe they're named this way

而我認為之所以如此命名

is because they target our own infrastructure.

是因為這些程式都鎖定 國內的基礎設施

They're programs through which the NSA

美國國安局用這類軟體

intentionally misleads corporate partners.

蓄意誤導企業伙伴

They tell corporate partners that these

他們向企業聲稱

are safe standards.

這些都是安全規範

They say hey, we need to work with you

國安局說：「為了強化貴公司的系統安全，

to secure your systems,

我們得合作。」

but in reality, they're giving bad advice

不過實際上這建議很惡質

這些公司被誤導後

to these companies that makes them

degrade the security of their services.

降低自身產品的安全層級

They're building in backdoors that not only

他們還趁機嵌入後門程式

the NSA can exploit,

不僅讓美國國安局有機可趁

but anyone else who has time and money

任何有時間和資金

to research and find it

投入研究和搜尋的人

can then use to let themselves in

都可藉此侵入

to the world's communications.

全球通訊

And this is really dangerous,

此事非同小可

because if we lose a single standard,

因為我們若没有共同基準

if we lose the trust of something like SSL,

而且因為牛奔程式

衝著傳輸安全層（SSL）而來

which was specifically targeted

by the Bullrun program,

就不再信任類似的安全機制

we will live a less safe world overall.

那我們身處的世界將 不再那麼安全

We won't be able to access our banks

我們與銀行往來

and we won't be able to access commerce

還有洽商時

without worrying about people monitoring those communications

將不免擔心通訊已被監控

或另一端為其目的搞破壞

or subverting them for their own ends.

CA: And do those same decisions also potentially

克里斯：另一個可能後果是不是

open America up to cyberattacks

會讓美國暴露於

from other sources?

其他網路攻擊？

ES: Absolutely.

愛德華：正是！

One of the problems,

其中一個問題

one of the dangerous legacies

也是911恐怖攻擊之後

that we've seen in the post-9/11 era,

遺留的一個後遺症

is that the NSA has traditionally worn two hats.

美國國安局身兼二職

They've been in charge of offensive operations,

一方面發動入侵網路

that is hacking,

的攻擊行動

but they've also been in charge of defensive operations,

但也負責資訊國防

and traditionally they've always prioritized

而且照慣例

他們更重視資訊國防

defense over offense

based on the principle

而如此判斷的標準是

that American secrets are simply worth more.

美國的機密比較珍貴

If we hack a Chinese business

若入侵一家中國企業網路

and steal their secrets,

竊取機密

if we hack a government office in Berlin

或對德國政府單位施以同樣手段

and steal their secrets,

盗取其機密

that has less value to the American people

對美國人而言

還不如確保中國無法對美國下手

than making sure that the Chinese

can't get access to our secrets.

來的有價值

So by reducing the security of our communications,

因此通訊安全層級弱化

they're not only putting the world at risk,

不只增加全球風險

they're putting America at risk in a fundamental way,

也讓美國陷入重大危機

because intellectual property is the basis,

因為智慧財產

the foundation of our economy,

就是美國的經濟命脈

and if we put that at risk through weak security,

若此命脈因安全太差而受遷累

we're going to be paying for it for years.

我們將會吃上好幾年的苦頭

CA: But they've made a calculation

克里斯：不過當局計算過

that it was worth doing this

as part of America's defense against terrorism.

為了防堵恐怖主義

值得放手一搏

Surely that makes it a price worth paying.

當然這樣說風險也就不為過了

ES: Well, when you look at the results

愛德華：以這些方案

遏止恐怖主義的成效來看

of these programs in stopping terrorism,

you will see that that's unfounded,

就能明白這種說法毫無根據

and you don't have to take my word for it,

各位也不用採信我的話

because we've had the first open court,

因為聯邦法庭對此

捨棄祕密審查

the first federal court that's reviewed this,

首度改採公開審理後

outside the secrecy arrangement,

called these programs Orwellian

認定這些方案係屬社會控制

and likely unconstitutional.

而且可能違憲

Congress, who has access

有權要求簡報說明的

to be briefed on these things,

美國國會

and now has the desire to be,

目前正有此意

has produced bills to reform it,

且已提案改革制度

and two independent White House panels

白宮的二個獨立小組

who reviewed all of the classified evidence

審查過所有機密證據後

said these programs have never stopped

表示相關專案

對遏止美國境內迫切的恐怖攻擊

a single terrorist attack

that was imminent in the United States.

毫無效果

這樣我們真的在 防堵恐怖行動嗎？

So is it really terrorism that we're stopping?

Do these programs have any value at all?

這些方案又有何價值？

I say no, and all three branches

我認為没有

三個美國政府部門 也都這麽認為

of the American government say no as well.

CA: I mean, do you think there's a deeper motivation

克里斯：你認為除了 對抗恐怖主義外

for them than the war against terrorism?

他們這麼做還隱含 其他動機嗎？

愛德華：抱歉，我聽不到 再說一次

ES: I'm sorry, I couldn't hear you, say again?

CA: Sorry. Do you think there's a deeper motivation

克里斯：抱歉 我是說除了對抗恐怖主義

for them other than the war against terrorism?

你認為他們這麼做 還有其他動機嗎？

ES: Yeah. The bottom line is that terrorism

愛德華：有的，追根究柢 對情資界而言

has always been what we in the intelligence world

would call a cover for action.

恐怖主義向來就是

掩飾行動的藉口

Terrorism is something that provokes

也是用來挑起情緒反應的方式

an emotional response that allows people

因此特權和方案的授權

to rationalize authorizing powers and programs

本來大眾是不允許的

that they wouldn't give otherwise.

在如此情緒下也變得理所當然

The Bullrun and Edgehill-type programs,

美國國安局早在1990年代

the NSA asked for these authorities

就要求對「牛奔」和「刃峰」 這類程式

back in the 1990s.

予以授權

They asked the FBI to go to Congress and make the case.

他們請聯邦調查局到國會遊說

The FBI went to Congress and did make the case.

而後者也照辦了

But Congress and the American people said no.

可惜國會和人民不吃這套

They said, it's not worth the risk to our economy.

他們說：「不值得拿我們的經濟去冒險。」

They said it's worth too much damage

還說為了證明值得

to our society to justify the gains.

對社會的衝擊太大了

But what we saw is, in the post-9/11 era,

不過911事件後我們目睹的卻是

有關當局藉口恐怖主義與 國家機密

they used secrecy and they used the justification of terrorism

to start these programs in secret

未經國會批准

without asking Congress,

也沒徵詢美國大眾

without asking the American people,

就暗中進行這些方案

and it's that kind of government behind closed doors

我們要防範的

就是這種密門政治的政府

that we need to guard ourselves against,

because it makes us less safe,

and it offers no value.

因為這樣的政府讓我們 更不安全

也無價值可言

CA: Okay, come with me here for a sec,

克里斯：好，請跟我來一下

because I've got a more personal question for you.

我有些私人問題請教

Speaking of terror,

說到恐怖活動

most people would find the situation you're in right now

大多數人會覺得

你目前在俄國的處境十分駭人

in Russia pretty terrifying.

You obviously heard what happened,

有關布拉德利．曼寧（Bradley Manning） 遭受的待遇

what the treatment that Bradley Manning got,

你顯然已有所聞

Chelsea Manning as now is,

他已改名為切爾西．曼寧 （Chelsea Manning）

and there was a story in Buzzfeed saying that

Buzzfeed網站刊載一則新聞

there are people in the intelligence community

提到情報界

who want you dead.

有些人想要你的命

How are you coping with this?

你如何應付這麻煩？

How are you coping with the fear?

又該如何處理自身的恐懼？

ES: It's no mystery

愛德華：眾所皆知

that there are governments out there that want to see me dead.

有好多政府巴不得我死

I've made clear again and again and again

而我一再表明的是

that I go to sleep every morning

每天早上我就寢時

thinking about what I can do for the American people.

都在想能為祖國同胞做什麽

I don't want to harm my government.

我不想傷害祖國政府

I want to help my government,

而且想幫忙

but the fact that they are willing to

但事實是

他們寧願無視正當程序

completely ignore due process,

they're willing to declare guilt

而且未經番判

without ever seeing a trial,

便將人定罪

these are things that we need to work against

有些事，社會群體該挺身抗拒

as a society, and say hey, this is not appropriate.

並且表態：「這麼做不對！」

We shouldn't be threatening dissidents.

「我們不該威脅異議人士。」

We shouldn't be criminalizing journalism.

「新聞業不該被冠上罪名。」

And whatever part I can do to see that end,

即使有風險,若能停止這一切

任何事我都樂意做

I'm happy to do despite the risks.

克里斯：我真的很想知道

CA: So I'd actually like to get some feedback

from the audience here,

現場觀眾的意見

because I know there's widely differing reactions

因為我知道各界對愛德華．史諾登

to Edward Snowden.

看法頗多不同

Suppose you had the following two choices, right?

假設各位可有以下兩種選擇

You could view what he did

把愛德華所做的事

as fundamentally a reckless act

當成根本就是給美國帶來危機

that has endangered America

的魯莽行為

or you could view it as fundamentally a heroic act

或者，也可說這是

能為美國及世界的長遠利益

that will work towards America and the world's

有所貢獻的偉大英雄事蹟

long-term good?

Those are the two choices I'll give you.

這是我給各位的兩個選項

I'm curious to see who's willing to vote with

我很好奇

誰會選第一個

the first of those,

that this was a reckless act?

認為是魯莽行為的

There are some hands going up.

有人舉手

Some hands going up.

It's hard to put your hand up

真有幾票呢

當事人在場

when the man is standing right here,

要舉手可真難啊

but I see them.

但的確有人這麼認為

ES: I can see you. (Laughter)

愛德華：我看得到你們這些人喔！ （帶笑）

CA: And who goes with the second choice,

克里斯：有人選第二種看法嗎?

the fundamentally heroic act?

認為這行為令人欽佩的

(Applause) (Cheers)

（掌聲中夾雜著加油打氣）

And I think it's true to say that there are a lot of people

真的有很多人没表態

who didn't show a hand and I think

我想還在考慮吧！

are still thinking this through,

because it seems to me that the debate around you

在我看來，有關你的辯論

並非以傳統的政治分野區分的

doesn't split along traditional political lines.

It's not left or right, it's not really about

非關左派右派，支持政府者

pro-government, libertarian, or not just that.

自由主義者或其他種種

Part of it is almost a generational issue.

其中有些幾乎可說是 世代議題

You're part of a generation that grew up

身為自小與網路為伍的一代

with the Internet, and it seems as if

當你見到有些事

you become offended at almost a visceral level

未來將對網路有所傷害

when you see something done

你似乎

that you think will harm the Internet.

變得義憤填膺

Is there some truth to that?

這樣說正確嗎？

ES: It is. I think it's very true.

愛德華：我覺得這樣說很對

This is not a left or right issue.

這議題無關左派右派

而是我們的基本自由 這裡所說的「我們」

Our basic freedoms, and when I say our,

I don't just mean Americans,

不只是是美國人

I mean people around the world,

而是全世界的人

it's not a partisan issue.

這也不是黨派議題

These are things that all people believe,

有些事是所有人都相信

and it's up to all of us to protect them,

而且我們都有責任保護的

and to people who have seen and enjoyed

對目睹並享受過

a free and open Internet,

自由開放網路的人來說

it's up to us to preserve that liberty

我們有責任為下一代

for the next generation to enjoy,

保留享有自由的機會

and if we don't change things,

if we don't stand up to make the changes

如果我們不做些改變

如果我們不挺身促成改變

we need to do to keep the Internet safe,

為自己和所有人

not just for us but for everyone,

維護網路安全

we're going to lose that,

我們將失去這些

and that would be a tremendous loss,

not just for us, but for the world.

那對我們和全世界而言

都將是嚴重損失

CA: Well, I have heard similar language recently

克里斯：這話我最近也聽過

from the founder of the world wide web,

網際網路的創建者說過

who I actually think is with us, Sir Tim Berners-Lee.

我想蒂姆．柏納斯李爵士 （Sir Tim Berners-Lee）在場

Tim, actually, would you like to come up and say,

蒂姆，您要上來說幾句嗎？

do we have a microphone for Tim?

能給他麥克風嗎？

(Applause)

（掌聲）

Tim, good to see you. Come up there.

很高興看到你，蒂姆！過來一點

Which camp are you in, by the way,

順便問一下 你是站在那一邊的？

traitor, hero? I have a theory on this, but --

叛國賊或英雄？ 我可以說明一下，不過. . .

Tim Berners-Lee: I've given much longer

蒂姆．柏納斯李： 我曾更詳細地回答過這問題

answers to that question, but hero,

不過若只有兩個選擇

if I have to make the choice between the two.

我說他是英雄

CA: And Ed, I think you've read

克里斯：愛德華 我想你應該讀過有關

the proposal that Sir Tim has talked about

蒂姆爵士提出

about a new Magna Carta to take back the Internet.

制定新版大憲章（Magna Carta） 收復網路的提議

Is that something that makes sense?

你認為有道理嗎？

ES: Absolutely. I mean, my generation, I grew up

愛德華：當然！ 我是說我們這一代－

not just thinking about the Internet,

我從小到大不只想過網路

but I grew up in the Internet,

也在網路世界成長

and although I never expected to have the chance

儘管我從未預料會有機會

to defend it in such a direct and practical manner

以這樣直接實際的方式 捍衛網路

and to embody it in this unusual,

並以這種特殊 而且近乎化身的方式

almost avatar manner,

體現網路

I think there's something poetic about the fact that

我認為身為網路世代的一員

拜其所屬世代的政治意見

one of the sons of the Internet

has actually become close to the Internet

得以與網路臨近

as a result of their political expression.

這還頗深遠的

And I believe that a Magna Carta for the Internet

我相信為網路制定的大憲章

is exactly what we need.

正是我們所需要的

We need to encode our values

我們不僅需要將價值觀

not just in writing but in the structure of the Internet,

訴諸文字，也要將之融入網路架構

and it's something that I hope,

這件事我希望

I invite everyone in the audience,

我邀請在座的各位觀眾加入

not just here in Vancouver but around the world,

不只是溫哥華這裡的 還有全球的觀眾

to join and participate in.

共襄盛舉

CA: Do you have a question for Ed?

克里斯：蒂姆你有甚麼要問愛德華嗎？

TBL: Well, two questions,

蒂姆．柏納斯李：我有兩個問題請教

a general question —

CA: Ed, can you still hear us?

一個普通問題－

克里斯：愛德華你還聽得見 我們說話嗎？

ES: Yes, I can hear you. CA: Oh, he's back.

愛德華：可以！ 克里斯：好，又連上了

蒂姆．柏納斯李： 你電話線上的竊聽器

TBL: The wiretap on your line

got a little interfered with for a moment.

暫時受到干擾

(Laughter)

（笑聲）

ES: It's a little bit of an NSA problem.

愛德華： 是有一點國安局搞出來的麻煩！

TBL: So, from the 25 years,

蒂姆．柏納斯李： 暫且撇開網路問世的這25年發展

stepping back and thinking,

另作思考

what would you think would be

再考量我們對於

the best that we could achieve

理想網路環境的所以討論內容

from all the discussions that we have

你認為

about the web we want?

我們應可達成的最佳境界是. . .

ES: When we think about

愛德華：每當思考

in terms of how far we can go,

我們能做多少

I think that's a question that's really only limited

我認為這取決於

我們願意投入多少

by what we're willing to put into it.

I think the Internet that we've enjoyed in the past

我認為過去我們享有的網路

has been exactly what we as not just a nation

不只正是國家整體

更是地球公民共同所需

but as a people around the world need,

and by cooperating, by engaging not just

透過合作，並且讓社會中

the technical parts of society,

技術專家以外的群體也加入

but as you said, the users,

不過就像你提過的

若全球的網路使用者

the people around the world who contribute

無論是透過全球網路和 社群媒體

through the Internet, through social media,

who just check the weather,

或只是查詢氣象的用戶也好

who rely on it every day as a part of their life,

甚至日常生活極度 依賴網路的人

to champion that.

都付出貢獻促成

We'll get not just the Internet we've had,

我們得到的網路絕非只有這樣

but a better Internet, a better now,

而是更好的網路環境和現勢

something that we can use to build a future

有了這些我們便可創造一個

that'll be better not just than what we hoped for

不僅超乎預期

but anything that we could have imagined.

而且符合各種想像的未來

CA: It's 30 years ago that TED was founded, 1984.

克里斯：30年前，也就是1984 TED論壇創立

A lot of the conversation since then has been

從那時起，許多討論便循著

along the lines that

連喬治．歐威爾（George Orwell）

actually George Orwell got it wrong.

都料錯的方向發展

It's not Big Brother watching us.

不是我們被政府監控

We, through the power of the web,

而是有了網路影響力和公開性

and transparency, are now watching Big Brother.

我們反而得以監督政府

Your revelations kind of drove a stake

不過這種較樂觀的看法 或多或少

through the heart of that rather optimistic view,

因為你的揭發而 挨了一記悶棍

but you still believe there's a way of doing something

不過你依然相信

有辦法解決

about that.

And you do too.

而且蒂姆也能辦到

ES: Right, so there is an argument to be made

愛德華：沒錯，所以說政府權力大增

是有根據的

that the powers of Big Brother have increased enormously.

There was a recent legal article at Yale

耶魯大學最近發表一篇 法律專文

that established something called the Bankston-Soltani Principle,

創立了一套所謂的 Bankston-Soltani法則

which is that our expectation of privacy is violated

也就是當政府監控的能力

其成本降低一個級數

when the capabilities of government surveillance

我們對隱私的期盼便會破滅

have become cheaper by an order of magnitude,

and each time that occurs, we need to revisit

每當這種事發生，我們便要

重新思考並權衡隱私權

and rebalance our privacy rights.

Now, that hasn't happened since

儘管政府監控的能力

the government's surveillance powers

早已三級跳

have increased by several orders of magnitude,

相關的省察卻從來沒發生

and that's why we're in the problem that we're in today,

才導致我們現在得 面對這樣的問題

but there is still hope,

不過事情仍有轉機

because the power of individuals

因為科技

have also been increased by technology.

個人影響力也增加了

I am living proof

我就是活生生的例子

that an individual can go head to head

即使單槍匹馬

against the most powerful adversaries

也可和超強勁敵

and the most powerful intelligence agencies

與全球情報單位正面對戰

around the world and win,

最後還獲勝

and I think that's something

我認為那就是

that we need to take hope from,

可給我們希望的利證

and we need to build on

to make it accessible not just to technical experts

我們需要從這點開始

不只讓技術專家可利用這點

but to ordinary citizens around the world.

甚至全世界的普通人也有機會

Journalism is not a crime,

新聞不是罪惡

communication is not a crime,

通訊也不是

and we should not be monitored in our everyday activities.

而且我們的日常活動 不該受到監視

CA: I'm not quite sure how you shake the hand of a bot,

克里斯：我不太確定該如何 與機器人握手

but I imagine it's, this is the hand right here. TBL: That'll come very soon.

不過假設這有一隻手。 蒂姆．柏納斯：很快就會發展出來的。

ES: Nice to meet you,

愛德華：幸會了！

and I hope my beam looks as nice

但願我的微笑

as my view of you guys does.

像各位的一樣親切

CA: Thank you, Tim.

克里斯：謝謝你，蒂姆

（掌聲）

(Applause)

I mean, The New York Times recently called for an amnesty for you.

好，紐約時報最近呼籲 該給你特赦

Would you welcome the chance to come back to America?

你會把握機會回到美國嗎？

ES: Absolutely. There's really no question,

愛德華：當然！

毫無疑問地

the principles that have been the foundation

這個提案

of this project

have been the public interest

是本著公共利益所提出的

and the principles that underly

而美國和全世界的新聞界

the journalistic establishment in the United States

能有如今規模

也是以這個的原則為基礎

and around the world,

and I think if the press is now saying,

我認為如果新聞業現在表態

we support this,

他們對此表示支持

this is something that needed to happen,

且認為特赦是必要的

that's a powerful argument, but it's not the final argument,

那的確很有說服力，不過尚未定論

and I think that's something that public should decide.

而我認為這必須由大眾決定

But at the same time,

不過與此同時

the government has hinted that they want

美國政府曾暗示

some kind of deal,

他們希望達成某種協議

that they want me to compromise

他們要我供出

the journalists with which I've been working,

目前為止我合作過的那些記者

to come back,

and I want to make it very clear

作為我回國的交換條件

我必須講明的是

that I did not do this to be safe.

我這一路走來不是為了自保

I did this to do what was right,

而是為所當為

and I'm not going to stop my work

而且我會持續這樣做

in the public interest

這是為了公共利益

just to benefit myself.

而不是為我自己的好處打算

(Applause)

（掌聲）

CA: In the meantime,

克里斯：現在看來

courtesy of the Internet and this technology,

拜網路及機器人科技所賜

you're here, back in North America,

你回到北美和我們在一起

not quite the U.S., Canada, in this form.

不過是加拿大而不是美國 而且是透過遙控機器人

I'm curious, how does that feel?

我想知道你有什麼感想？

ES: Canada is different than what I expected.

愛德華：出乎意料的

加拿大比我想像的溫暖多了!

It's a lot warmer.

(Laughter)

（笑聲）

CA: At TED, the mission is "ideas worth spreading."

克里斯：TED論壇的宗旨是 「值得傳佈的思想」

If you could encapsulate it in a single idea,

如果你能用一個概念 簡述這個宗旨

what is your idea worth spreading

此時此刻

right now at this moment?

您認為該傳佈何種思想？

ES: I would say the last year has been a reminder

愛德華：我認為2013年 讓我們體認到

that democracy may die behind closed doors,

密室政治足以扼殺民主

but we as individuals are born

但也是這種隱密性

behind those same closed doors,

讓個人得以誕生

and we don't have to give up

我們不需要放棄個人隱私

our privacy to have good government.

來建立好政府

We don't have to give up our liberty

我們也不需要放棄自由

to have security.

來換取安全

And I think by working together

我認為只要大家共同努力

we can have both open government

開放的政府和私生活

是可以兼得的

and private lives,

and I look forward to working with everyone

我希望能與全世界的人合作

around the world to see that happen.

來實現這件事

Thank you very much.

非常謝謝大家！

CA: Ed, thank you.

克里斯：謝謝你！愛德華

(Applause)

（掌聲）