How American and Chinese values shaped the coronavirus response | Huang Hung

Transcriber: Joseph Geni Reviewer: Camille Martínez

翻译人员: Archi Xiao 校对人员: Yolanda Zhang

Helen Walters: Huang, it's so good to see you.

海伦 · 沃特斯： 洪晃，很高兴见到你。

谢谢你参加我们的节目。 你的 2020 年过得怎样？

Thank you for joining us. How's your 2020 been?

Huang Hung: My 2020 started totally normal.

洪晃：我的 2020 年 有个再正常不过的开头。

In January, I went to Paris,

一月份的时候，我去了一趟巴黎，

did my interview for the fashion week there,

在那里做了一场 时装周的采访。

came back to Beijing on January 22nd,

1 月 22 日，我回到北京，

and finding things a little bit tense

发现气氛有点紧张，

because there were a lot of rumors.

流言漫天。

Having lived through SARS,

因为亲历过非典，

I wasn't that concerned.

我最初并不是特别担心。

And on the 23rd, I had a friend of mine from New York come to my house

23 日，我的一个朋友 从纽约来到我家。

who had a flu,

这个朋友当时得了流感，

and we had dinner together,

我们还一起吃了晚饭。

and another friend who came,

后来又来了一个朋友，

who left the next day for Australia for vacation on an airplane.

第二天就乘飞机 到澳大利亚度假去了。

So we were not taking this terribly seriously

总而言之，我们并没有 太把这一切当回事，

until there was a lockdown.

直到封城开始。

HW: And we've seen that echo around the world.

海伦：我们看到 这场疫情波及到了全世界。

I think still some people find it hard to understand the magnitude

中国所采取的防控举措之严，

of some of the measures that China took.

我想直到现在 有些人仍然很难理解。

I mean -- what else are we missing about China's response in all of this?

那么，面对中国的这一系列响应措施， 有哪些地方我们没理解到位？

HH: You know, historically,

洪晃：从历史的角度来看，

we're just two very different countries

就文化和历史而言，

in terms of culture and history.

中美是两个截然不同的国家。

I mean, these are two completely different human experiences for its people.

这一切对于两国的人民而言 是截然不同的经历。

So, for China,

对于中国而言，

when the lockdown happens,

刚开始采取封城措施的时候，

people are OK.

大家都觉得觉得没什么问题。

People are OK with it,

人们能够接受这样的安排。

because they think that's what a good parent should do.

因为他们认为 这是一个“好家长”应该做的事情。

You know, if a kid gets sick,

就像当一个孩子生病的时候，

you put him in the other room,

你会让他单独呆在另一个房间，

and you lock him up and make sure that the other kids don't get sick.

把他关起来， 确保其他孩子不会被传染。

And they expect that out of the government.

这正是人们期待 政府所做出的反应。

But when it is outside of China, from America, it becomes a huge issue

但是在中国之外的地方，在美国， 这却变成了一个重大问题——

of the right political thing to do

这么做在政治的角度是否站得住脚，

and whether it's infringing on personal freedom.

是否侵犯个人自由。

So the issues that you have to deal with in a democratic society

所以说，在一个民主社会 你需要面对的问题，

are issues that one does not have to deal with in China.

在中国通常不是什么大问题。

I have to say that there's a word in Chinese

我得说，在中国有一个词

that doesn't exist in any other language,

是其他语言没有的，

and the word is called "guāi."

就是“乖”。

It is what you call a kid

这个词用来形容

who listens to his or her parents.

一个非常听父母话的孩子。

So I think, as a people, we are very "guāi."

我想，作为一个民族， 我们非常“乖”。

We have this sort of authoritarian figure

我们有这么一个

that Chinese always look up to,

中国人能一直仰望的威权形象。

and they do expect the government to actually take the actions,

他们真切地期望政府 能采取实际的措施，

and they will deal with it.

而且他们会接受安排。

However much suffering there is,

无论这将带来多大的困难，

they feel that, OK, if big brother says that this has to be done,

他们觉得，如果老大哥说 必须得这么干的话，那行吧，

then it must be done.

那就这么干吧。

And that really defines China as a separate mentality,

这就决定了中国的 一个截然不同的思维——

Chinese has a separate mentality,

中国人有自己的思维——

as, say, people in Europe and America.

是有别于欧洲和美国的。

HW: That sense of collective responsibility

海伦：我感觉那种集体责任感

sometimes feels a little absent from this culture.

有时候在我们的文化里感受不到。

At the same time, there are, I think, valid concerns

同时，我想，对诸如监管 和数据隐私等问题的担忧

around surveillance and data privacy, things like that.

也有其合理之处。

What is the balance here,

那么该如何平衡呢？

and what is the right trade-off between surveillance and freedom?

该如何权衡监管和自由？

HH: I think in the internet age,

洪晃：我想在这个互联网时代，

it is somewhere between China and the US.

这种权衡是介于 中国和美国的做法之间的，

I think when you take individual freedom

当同时考虑个人自由

versus collective safety,

和集体安全的时候，

there has to be a balance somewhere there.

的确需要找到一个平衡点。

With surveillance, the head of Baidu, Robin Li, once said

说到监管， 百度的 CEO 李彦宏曾经说过，

the Chinese people are quite willing to give up certain individual rights

中国人挺乐意牺牲 某种程度上的个人权利

in exchange for convenience.

来换取便利。

Actually, he was completely criticized on Chinese social media,

实际上，他也因为这番言论 在中国的社交媒体上遭到了抨击，

but I think he is right.

但是我觉得他说的有道理。

Chinese people are willing to give up certain rights.

中国人的确愿意牺牲某些权利，

For example, we have ...

举个例子，

Chinese mostly are very proud of the payment system we have,

绝大部分中国人对于 我们的支付系统还是挺自豪的，

which is you can go anywhere just with your iPhone

只要带着你的手机，

and pay for everything,

走到哪儿都可以付钱买东西，

and all they do is face-scan.

刷脸就可以了。

I think that probably freaks Americans out.

我想这可能会吓坏美国人。

You know, China right now, we're still under semi-lockdown,

要知道中国现在 正处于半封城的状态，

so if you go anywhere, there's an app where you scan

无论你去到哪里， 只需要利用手机应用扫码，

and you input your mobile phone number,

输入你的手机号码，

and the app will tell the guard at the entrance of the mall, for example,

这个应用就会告诉商场的保安， 比如说，

where you have been for the past 14 days.

过去 14 天里你都去过哪里。

Now, when I told that to an American,

我跟一个美国人说过这件事，

she was horrified,

她吓坏了。

and she thought it was such an invasion of privacy.

她觉得这简直就是侵犯隐私。

On the other hand,

但是在另一方面，

as someone who is Chinese

作为一个中国人，

and has lived in China for the past 20 years,

而且过去 20 年一直生活在中国，

although I understand that American mentality,

尽管我理解美国人的思维，

I still find I'm Chinese enough to think, "I don't mind this,

但我觉得自己还是带有典型的 中国人思维，觉得“我不在意这个，

and I am better, I feel safer entering the mall

因为所有人都被扫了，

because everybody has been scanned,"

这样让我感觉更好，更安全。”

whereas, I think individual freedom as an abstract concept

所以我觉得个人自由 作为一个抽象概念，

in a pandemic like this

在类似这样的疫情当中

is actually really meaningless.

真的没什么太大的意义。

So I think the West really needs to move a step towards the East

所以我觉得西方真的需要 向东方靠近一点，

and to think about the collective as a whole

从全局思考问题，

rather than only think about oneself as an individual.

而不是从个体的角度看问题。

HW: The rise of antagonistic rhetoric between the US and China

海伦：中美之间敌对情绪的上升

is obviously troubling,

很明显带来了麻烦。

and the thing is, the countries are interlinked

问题就在于，国与国之间 一直是互相联系的，

whether people understand global supply chains or not.

无论人们是否理解全球供应链。

Where do you think we head next?

你觉得我们下一步该怎么走？

HH: You know, this is the most horrifying thing that came out of this,

洪晃：在这场疫情中， 来自双方国家的敌对情绪

the kind of nationalistic sentiments on both sides in this pandemic.

是最可怕的后果。

Because I'm an optimist,

因为我是一个乐观主义者，

I think what will come out of this

我想，这场疫情所带来的结果，

is that both sides will realize that this is a fight

应该是双方都意识到这是一场

that the entire human race has to do together and not apart.

全人类需要共同努力对抗的战争， 而不是各扫门前雪。

Despite the rhetoric,

先不论政治言辞，

the global economy has grown to such an integration

全球经济已经变成一个整体，

that decoupling will be extremely costly and painful

背道而驰将给中美双方

for both the United States and China.

造成极大的成本， 带来巨大的痛苦。

HW: It's also been interesting to me

海伦：看到中国接收到 这种言语上的抨击

to see the criticism that China has received quite vocally.

我觉得还挺有意思的。

For instance, they've been criticized for downplaying the death toll,

比如说他们被批评 虚报死亡人数，

arguably,

这一点仍有待论证；

also for trying to demonize Dr. Li,

以及试图抹黑那位 首先对冠状病毒敲响警钟的武汉医生，

the Wuhan doctor who first raised the alarm about the coronavirus.

李文亮医生。

I just saw a report in "The New York Times"

我刚在《纽约时报》看到一篇报道，

that Weibo users have been posting repeatedly on the last post of Dr. Li

说微博用户不断转发 李医生的最后一条微博，

and using this as kind of a living memorial to him,

以此作为对他的某种悼念，

chatting to him.

和他对话。

There's something like 870,000 comments and growing

那条最后的微博下面 有接近 87 万条留言，

on that last post.

这个数字还在不断上升。

Do you see a change in the media?

你看到媒体的态度有什么变化吗？

Do you see a change in the approach to Chinese leadership

你看到中国领导层 所采取的措施有什么变化吗？

that actually could lead to China swinging perhaps more to the center,

是否真的可能导致中国 更往中央靠拢？

just as perhaps America needs to swing more towards a Chinese model?

还是说也许美国更需要 向中国模式靠拢呢？

HH: Unfortunately, not really,

洪晃：遗憾的是，并没有，

because I think there is a way

因为我想，在极权政府 和他的人民之间

between authoritarian governments and its people to communicate.

有某种特殊的沟通方式。

The night that Dr. Li died,

李文亮医生去世的当晚，

when it was announced that he died,

当他被宣布死亡的时候，

the Chinese social media just blew up.

中国社交媒体炸开了锅。

Even though he was unjustly treated as a whistleblower,

尽管作为吹哨人， 他受到了不公正的对待，

he still went to work in the hospital

可他仍然坚守在医院的岗位，

and tried to save lives as a doctor,

作为医生努力挽救生命，

and then he died

接着因为受到病毒感染

because he contracted the disease.

而不幸去世了。

So there was anger, frustration,

所以一切愤怒和沮丧

and all of that came out

皆由此而生，

in kind of commemorating a figure

人们借此来纪念一位

that they feel that the government had wronged.

他们认为被政府辜负的人物。

The verdict

于是在出现的一种

and sort of the official voice on:

类似官方裁定的声音中：

"Who is Dr. Li? Is he a good guy or a bad guy?"

“李文亮医生是谁？ 他是好人还是坏人？”

completely changed 180 degrees.

媒体的态度发生了180 度的反转。

He went from a doctor who misbehaved

李文亮从一个行为不端的医生

to the hero who warned the people.

变成了一位警示世人的英雄。

So under authoritarian government,

所以在极权政府的统治之下，

they still are very aware of public opinion,

媒体依然非常清楚公众的看法，

but, on the other hand,

但是在另一方面，

when people complain and when they commemorate Dr. Li,

当人们埋怨， 当他们纪念李文亮医生的时候，

do they really want to change the system?

他们真的希望改变这个体系吗？

And my answer is no,

我的答案是，并不见得，

because they don't like that particular decision,

因为他们只是不喜欢某个特定的决定，

but they don't want to change the system.

但是他们并不想改变体系。

And one of the reasons is because

原因之一是，

they have never, ever known another system.

他们从来不知道除此之外的体系。

This is the system they know how to work.

这是唯一一个他们知道 如何运转的体系。

HW: What is wok-throwing, Huang?

海伦：洪晃，能告诉我们 什么是“甩锅”吗？

HH: Oh, wok-throwing is when you blame somebody else.

洪晃：哦，甩锅就是 你把责任推卸给其他人。

Basically, someone who is responsible in a slang Chinese

大概意思就是让其他人负责， 这是中国的一句俗语，

is someone who carries a black wok.

“让某人背黑锅”。

You are made to be the scapegoat for something that is bad.

你被迫成为了某种恶行的替罪羔羊。

So basically, Trump started calling it the "Chinese virus,"

这里指的就是，当特朗普开始 把这个病毒称为“中国病毒”，

the "Wuhan virus,"

“武汉病毒”，

and trying to blame the entire coronavirus pandemic

试图把这个冠状病毒大流行

on the Chinese.

怪罪到中国头上。

And then the Chinese, I think, threw the wok back at the Americans.

接着中国人把这个锅 甩回给了美国人。

So it was a very funny joke on Chinese social media,

于是关于甩锅， 在中国的社交媒体上出现了一些

that wok-throwing.

很滑稽的梗。

There's a wok-throwing gymnastics aerobics exercise video that went viral.

最近有个甩锅的健身舞视频很火。

HW: But tell us, Huang:

海伦：洪晃，实话实说，

You're also doing dances on TikTok, right?

你也在抖音上跳过这段舞，对吗？

HH: Oh, of course.

洪晃：哦，那当然。

I'm doing a lot of wok-throwing aerobics on TikTok.

我在抖音上上传了 好几个甩锅的运动视频。

HW: I mean, a potential silver lining of all of this is that it has laid bare

海伦：我想，当前局势 背后存在的一丝希望是，

some of the inequities, inequalities in the system,

它让一些体系内的不公现象， 一些现存的结构性问题

some of the broken structures that we have,

暴露于光天化日之下，

and if we're smart, we can rebuild better.

如果我们足够聪明， 就可以更好地进行重构。

HH: Yes. I think one of the silver linings of this pandemic

海伦：是的，我想这场疫情大流行 带给我们的一线生机是，

is that we do realize

我们真切地意识到

that the human race has to do something together

人类需要携手共进，

rather than to be distinguished by our race, by the color of our skin

而不是被种族、肤色

or by our nationality;

或者国籍分裂；

that this virus obviously is not discriminating against anyone,

这个病毒显然不是 针对特定的人群，

whether you are rich or poor,

无论你富有还是贫穷，

important or not important

无关你是重量级人物， 还是无名小辈，

or whatever skin color or nationality you are.

不管你是什么肤色， 什么国籍。

So it is a time to be together,

是时候让所有人团结一致，

rather than to try to pull the world apart

而不是分裂世界，

and crawl back to our own nationalistic shells.

爬回到各自“国家主义”的 保护壳中去。

HW: It's a beautiful sentiment.

海伦：这是一个非常美好的愿景。

Huang Hung, thank you so much for joining us from Beijing.

洪晃，非常感谢你远在北京 参加我们的节目，

Stay well, please.

请保重。

HH: Thank you, Helen, and you stay well as well.

洪晃：谢谢你，海伦。 也祝愿你安好。