How American and Chinese values shaped the coronavirus response | Huang Hung
118,137 views ・ 2020-05-26
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00:00
Transcriber: Joseph Geni
Reviewer: Camille Martínez
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翻译人员: Archi Xiao
校对人员: Yolanda Zhang
00:12
Helen Walters: Huang,
it's so good to see you.
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海伦 · 沃特斯:
洪晃,很高兴见到你。
谢谢你参加我们的节目。
你的 2020 年过得怎样?
00:15
Thank you for joining us.
How's your 2020 been?
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00:17
Huang Hung: My 2020
started totally normal.
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洪晃:我的 2020 年
有个再正常不过的开头。
00:20
In January, I went to Paris,
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一月份的时候,我去了一趟巴黎,
00:24
did my interview
for the fashion week there,
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在那里做了一场
时装周的采访。
00:27
came back to Beijing on January 22nd,
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1 月 22 日,我回到北京,
00:31
and finding things a little bit tense
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发现气氛有点紧张,
00:34
because there were a lot of rumors.
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流言漫天。
00:37
Having lived through SARS,
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因为亲历过非典,
00:41
I wasn't that concerned.
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我最初并不是特别担心。
00:43
And on the 23rd, I had a friend of mine
from New York come to my house
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23 日,我的一个朋友
从纽约来到我家。
00:48
who had a flu,
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这个朋友当时得了流感,
00:50
and we had dinner together,
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我们还一起吃了晚饭。
00:52
and another friend who came,
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后来又来了一个朋友,
00:54
who left the next day for Australia
for vacation on an airplane.
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第二天就乘飞机
到澳大利亚度假去了。
00:59
So we were not taking this
terribly seriously
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总而言之,我们并没有
太把这一切当回事,
01:03
until there was a lockdown.
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直到封城开始。
01:06
HW: And we've seen that echo
around the world.
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海伦:我们看到
这场疫情波及到了全世界。
01:08
I think still some people find it hard
to understand the magnitude
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中国所采取的防控举措之严,
01:11
of some of the measures that China took.
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我想直到现在
有些人仍然很难理解。
01:14
I mean -- what else are we missing
about China's response in all of this?
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那么,面对中国的这一系列响应措施,
有哪些地方我们没理解到位?
01:18
HH: You know, historically,
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洪晃:从历史的角度来看,
01:19
we're just two very different countries
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就文化和历史而言,
01:24
in terms of culture and history.
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中美是两个截然不同的国家。
01:27
I mean, these are two completely different
human experiences for its people.
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这一切对于两国的人民而言
是截然不同的经历。
01:33
So, for China,
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对于中国而言,
01:36
when the lockdown happens,
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刚开始采取封城措施的时候,
01:39
people are OK.
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大家都觉得觉得没什么问题。
01:43
People are OK with it,
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人们能够接受这样的安排。
01:44
because they think that's what
a good parent should do.
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因为他们认为
这是一个“好家长”应该做的事情。
01:48
You know, if a kid gets sick,
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就像当一个孩子生病的时候,
01:51
you put him in the other room,
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你会让他单独呆在另一个房间,
01:52
and you lock him up and make sure
that the other kids don't get sick.
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把他关起来,
确保其他孩子不会被传染。
01:57
And they expect that
out of the government.
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这正是人们期待
政府所做出的反应。
02:00
But when it is outside of China,
from America, it becomes a huge issue
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但是在中国之外的地方,在美国,
这却变成了一个重大问题——
02:06
of the right political thing to do
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这么做在政治的角度是否站得住脚,
02:08
and whether it's infringing
on personal freedom.
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是否侵犯个人自由。
02:12
So the issues that you have to deal with
in a democratic society
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所以说,在一个民主社会
你需要面对的问题,
02:16
are issues that one does not
have to deal with in China.
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在中国通常不是什么大问题。
02:21
I have to say that
there's a word in Chinese
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我得说,在中国有一个词
02:23
that doesn't exist in any other language,
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是其他语言没有的,
02:27
and the word is called "guāi."
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就是“乖”。
02:29
It is what you call a kid
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这个词用来形容
02:32
who listens to his or her parents.
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一个非常听父母话的孩子。
02:36
So I think, as a people,
we are very "guāi."
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我想,作为一个民族,
我们非常“乖”。
02:40
We have this sort of authoritarian figure
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我们有这么一个
02:43
that Chinese always look up to,
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中国人能一直仰望的威权形象。
02:46
and they do expect the government
to actually take the actions,
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他们真切地期望政府
能采取实际的措施,
02:51
and they will deal with it.
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而且他们会接受安排。
02:53
However much suffering there is,
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无论这将带来多大的困难,
02:56
they feel that, OK, if big brother says
that this has to be done,
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他们觉得,如果老大哥说
必须得这么干的话,那行吧,
03:02
then it must be done.
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那就这么干吧。
03:04
And that really defines China
as a separate mentality,
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这就决定了中国的
一个截然不同的思维——
03:09
Chinese has a separate mentality,
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中国人有自己的思维——
03:12
as, say, people in Europe and America.
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是有别于欧洲和美国的。
03:16
HW: That sense
of collective responsibility
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海伦:我感觉那种集体责任感
03:18
sometimes feels a little absent
from this culture.
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有时候在我们的文化里感受不到。
03:22
At the same time, there are,
I think, valid concerns
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同时,我想,对诸如监管
和数据隐私等问题的担忧
03:26
around surveillance
and data privacy, things like that.
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也有其合理之处。
03:30
What is the balance here,
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那么该如何平衡呢?
03:32
and what is the right trade-off
between surveillance and freedom?
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该如何权衡监管和自由?
03:37
HH: I think in the internet age,
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洪晃:我想在这个互联网时代,
03:40
it is somewhere between China and the US.
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这种权衡是介于
中国和美国的做法之间的,
03:45
I think when you take
individual freedom
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当同时考虑个人自由
03:52
versus collective safety,
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和集体安全的时候,
03:54
there has to be a balance somewhere there.
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的确需要找到一个平衡点。
03:57
With surveillance, the head of Baidu,
Robin Li, once said
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说到监管,
百度的 CEO 李彦宏曾经说过,
04:03
the Chinese people are quite willing
to give up certain individual rights
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中国人挺乐意牺牲
某种程度上的个人权利
04:09
in exchange for convenience.
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来换取便利。
04:11
Actually, he was completely criticized
on Chinese social media,
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实际上,他也因为这番言论
在中国的社交媒体上遭到了抨击,
04:16
but I think he is right.
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但是我觉得他说的有道理。
04:17
Chinese people are willing
to give up certain rights.
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中国人的确愿意牺牲某些权利,
04:21
For example, we have ...
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举个例子,
04:24
Chinese mostly are very proud
of the payment system we have,
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绝大部分中国人对于
我们的支付系统还是挺自豪的,
04:28
which is you can go anywhere
just with your iPhone
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只要带着你的手机,
04:31
and pay for everything,
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走到哪儿都可以付钱买东西,
04:33
and all they do is face-scan.
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刷脸就可以了。
04:34
I think that probably
freaks Americans out.
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我想这可能会吓坏美国人。
04:38
You know, China right now,
we're still under semi-lockdown,
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要知道中国现在
正处于半封城的状态,
04:43
so if you go anywhere,
there's an app where you scan
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无论你去到哪里,
只需要利用手机应用扫码,
04:47
and you input your mobile phone number,
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输入你的手机号码,
04:51
and the app will tell the guard
at the entrance of the mall, for example,
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这个应用就会告诉商场的保安,
比如说,
04:57
where you have been for the past 14 days.
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过去 14 天里你都去过哪里。
05:00
Now, when I told that to an American,
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我跟一个美国人说过这件事,
05:03
she was horrified,
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她吓坏了。
05:04
and she thought it was
such an invasion of privacy.
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她觉得这简直就是侵犯隐私。
05:08
On the other hand,
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但是在另一方面,
05:11
as someone who is Chinese
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作为一个中国人,
05:13
and has lived in China
for the past 20 years,
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而且过去 20 年一直生活在中国,
05:18
although I understand
that American mentality,
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尽管我理解美国人的思维,
05:21
I still find I'm Chinese enough
to think, "I don't mind this,
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但我觉得自己还是带有典型的
中国人思维,觉得“我不在意这个,
05:27
and I am better, I feel safer
entering the mall
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因为所有人都被扫了,
05:31
because everybody has been scanned,"
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这样让我感觉更好,更安全。”
05:34
whereas, I think individual freedom
as an abstract concept
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所以我觉得个人自由
作为一个抽象概念,
05:42
in a pandemic like this
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在类似这样的疫情当中
05:44
is actually really meaningless.
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真的没什么太大的意义。
05:46
So I think the West really needs
to move a step towards the East
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所以我觉得西方真的需要
向东方靠近一点,
05:52
and to think about
the collective as a whole
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从全局思考问题,
05:55
rather than only think
about oneself as an individual.
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而不是从个体的角度看问题。
05:58
HW: The rise of antagonistic rhetoric
between the US and China
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海伦:中美之间敌对情绪的上升
06:01
is obviously troubling,
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很明显带来了麻烦。
06:03
and the thing is,
the countries are interlinked
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问题就在于,国与国之间
一直是互相联系的,
06:06
whether people understand
global supply chains or not.
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无论人们是否理解全球供应链。
06:09
Where do you think we head next?
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你觉得我们下一步该怎么走?
06:11
HH: You know, this is the most
horrifying thing that came out of this,
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洪晃:在这场疫情中,
来自双方国家的敌对情绪
06:16
the kind of nationalistic sentiments
on both sides in this pandemic.
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是最可怕的后果。
06:22
Because I'm an optimist,
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因为我是一个乐观主义者,
06:24
I think what will come out of this
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我想,这场疫情所带来的结果,
06:28
is that both sides will realize
that this is a fight
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应该是双方都意识到这是一场
06:34
that the entire human race
has to do together and not apart.
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全人类需要共同努力对抗的战争,
而不是各扫门前雪。
06:38
Despite the rhetoric,
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先不论政治言辞,
06:40
the global economy has grown
to such an integration
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全球经济已经变成一个整体,
06:45
that decoupling will be
extremely costly and painful
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背道而驰将给中美双方
06:52
for both the United States and China.
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造成极大的成本,
带来巨大的痛苦。
06:54
HW: It's also been interesting to me
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海伦:看到中国接收到
这种言语上的抨击
06:56
to see the criticism that China
has received quite vocally.
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我觉得还挺有意思的。
07:00
For instance, they've been criticized
for downplaying the death toll,
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比如说他们被批评
虚报死亡人数,
07:05
arguably,
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这一点仍有待论证;
07:06
also for trying to demonize Dr. Li,
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以及试图抹黑那位
首先对冠状病毒敲响警钟的武汉医生,
07:09
the Wuhan doctor who first
raised the alarm about the coronavirus.
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李文亮医生。
07:15
I just saw a report
in "The New York Times"
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我刚在《纽约时报》看到一篇报道,
07:17
that Weibo users have been posting
repeatedly on the last post of Dr. Li
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说微博用户不断转发
李医生的最后一条微博,
07:23
and using this as kind of
a living memorial to him,
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以此作为对他的某种悼念,
07:26
chatting to him.
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和他对话。
07:27
There's something like
870,000 comments and growing
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那条最后的微博下面
有接近 87 万条留言,
07:31
on that last post.
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这个数字还在不断上升。
07:33
Do you see a change in the media?
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你看到媒体的态度有什么变化吗?
07:36
Do you see a change in the approach
to Chinese leadership
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你看到中国领导层
所采取的措施有什么变化吗?
07:39
that actually could lead to China
swinging perhaps more to the center,
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是否真的可能导致中国
更往中央靠拢?
07:43
just as perhaps America needs
to swing more towards a Chinese model?
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还是说也许美国更需要
向中国模式靠拢呢?
07:47
HH: Unfortunately, not really,
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洪晃:遗憾的是,并没有,
07:50
because I think there is a way
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因为我想,在极权政府
和他的人民之间
07:55
between authoritarian governments
and its people to communicate.
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有某种特殊的沟通方式。
07:59
The night that Dr. Li died,
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李文亮医生去世的当晚,
08:02
when it was announced that he died,
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当他被宣布死亡的时候,
08:06
the Chinese social media just blew up.
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中国社交媒体炸开了锅。
08:09
Even though he was
unjustly treated as a whistleblower,
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尽管作为吹哨人,
他受到了不公正的对待,
08:12
he still went to work in the hospital
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可他仍然坚守在医院的岗位,
08:14
and tried to save lives as a doctor,
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作为医生努力挽救生命,
08:17
and then he died
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接着因为受到病毒感染
08:18
because he contracted the disease.
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而不幸去世了。
08:20
So there was anger, frustration,
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所以一切愤怒和沮丧
08:23
and all of that came out
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皆由此而生,
08:25
in kind of commemorating a figure
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人们借此来纪念一位
08:28
that they feel that
the government had wronged.
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他们认为被政府辜负的人物。
08:32
The verdict
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于是在出现的一种
08:34
and sort of the official voice on:
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类似官方裁定的声音中:
08:38
"Who is Dr. Li?
Is he a good guy or a bad guy?"
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“李文亮医生是谁?
他是好人还是坏人?”
08:41
completely changed 180 degrees.
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媒体的态度发生了180 度的反转。
08:45
He went from a doctor who misbehaved
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李文亮从一个行为不端的医生
08:49
to the hero who warned the people.
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变成了一位警示世人的英雄。
08:52
So under authoritarian government,
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所以在极权政府的统治之下,
08:55
they still are very aware
of public opinion,
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媒体依然非常清楚公众的看法,
09:00
but, on the other hand,
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但是在另一方面,
09:02
when people complain
and when they commemorate Dr. Li,
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当人们埋怨,
当他们纪念李文亮医生的时候,
09:07
do they really want to change the system?
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他们真的希望改变这个体系吗?
09:10
And my answer is no,
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我的答案是,并不见得,
09:13
because they don't like
that particular decision,
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因为他们只是不喜欢某个特定的决定,
09:17
but they don't want to change the system.
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但是他们并不想改变体系。
09:20
And one of the reasons is because
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原因之一是,
09:22
they have never, ever
known another system.
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他们从来不知道除此之外的体系。
09:25
This is the system they know how to work.
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这是唯一一个他们知道
如何运转的体系。
09:29
HW: What is wok-throwing, Huang?
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海伦:洪晃,能告诉我们
什么是“甩锅”吗?
09:31
HH: Oh, wok-throwing is when
you blame somebody else.
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洪晃:哦,甩锅就是
你把责任推卸给其他人。
09:36
Basically, someone who is responsible
in a slang Chinese
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大概意思就是让其他人负责,
这是中国的一句俗语,
09:42
is someone who carries a black wok.
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“让某人背黑锅”。
09:45
You are made to be the scapegoat
for something that is bad.
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你被迫成为了某种恶行的替罪羔羊。
09:51
So basically, Trump started
calling it the "Chinese virus,"
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这里指的就是,当特朗普开始
把这个病毒称为“中国病毒”,
09:56
the "Wuhan virus,"
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“武汉病毒”,
09:57
and trying to blame the entire
coronavirus pandemic
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试图把这个冠状病毒大流行
10:03
on the Chinese.
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怪罪到中国头上。
10:04
And then the Chinese, I think,
threw the wok back at the Americans.
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接着中国人把这个锅
甩回给了美国人。
10:09
So it was a very funny joke
on Chinese social media,
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于是关于甩锅,
在中国的社交媒体上出现了一些
10:14
that wok-throwing.
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很滑稽的梗。
10:15
There's a wok-throwing gymnastics
aerobics exercise video that went viral.
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最近有个甩锅的健身舞视频很火。
10:21
HW: But tell us, Huang:
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海伦:洪晃,实话实说,
10:22
You're also doing dances on TikTok, right?
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你也在抖音上跳过这段舞,对吗?
10:25
HH: Oh, of course.
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洪晃:哦,那当然。
10:27
I'm doing a lot of wok-throwing
aerobics on TikTok.
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我在抖音上上传了
好几个甩锅的运动视频。
10:31
HW: I mean, a potential silver lining
of all of this is that it has laid bare
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海伦:我想,当前局势
背后存在的一丝希望是,
10:35
some of the inequities,
inequalities in the system,
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它让一些体系内的不公现象,
一些现存的结构性问题
10:38
some of the broken
structures that we have,
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暴露于光天化日之下,
10:41
and if we're smart, we can rebuild better.
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如果我们足够聪明,
就可以更好地进行重构。
10:44
HH: Yes. I think one of
the silver linings of this pandemic
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海伦:是的,我想这场疫情大流行
带给我们的一线生机是,
10:48
is that we do realize
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我们真切地意识到
10:52
that the human race
has to do something together
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人类需要携手共进,
10:59
rather than to be distinguished
by our race, by the color of our skin
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而不是被种族、肤色
11:05
or by our nationality;
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或者国籍分裂;
11:07
that this virus obviously
is not discriminating against anyone,
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这个病毒显然不是
针对特定的人群,
11:12
whether you are rich or poor,
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无论你富有还是贫穷,
11:14
important or not important
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无关你是重量级人物,
还是无名小辈,
11:17
or whatever skin color
or nationality you are.
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不管你是什么肤色,
什么国籍。
11:20
So it is a time to be together,
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是时候让所有人团结一致,
11:24
rather than to try to pull the world apart
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而不是分裂世界,
11:28
and crawl back to our own
nationalistic shells.
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爬回到各自“国家主义”的
保护壳中去。
11:32
HW: It's a beautiful sentiment.
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海伦:这是一个非常美好的愿景。
11:34
Huang Hung, thank you so much
for joining us from Beijing.
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洪晃,非常感谢你远在北京
参加我们的节目,
11:36
Stay well, please.
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请保重。
11:39
HH: Thank you, Helen,
and you stay well as well.
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洪晃:谢谢你,海伦。
也祝愿你安好。
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